Talk:Eskimo kiss

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January 2008[edit]

The following is from the Helpdesk I don't know enough about this to fix it, but maybe someone else can after seeing this users comment. --TheDJ (talk • contribs) 13:42, 9 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The word Eskimo is bad language[edit]

I noted an artical on Eskimo Kiss but it is politically incorrect. Eskimo is a cree word and the Inuk are often referred to as Inuit. The only government that does not push this change is the USA. I do not know how to change things on wikipedia but can someone at least make it known immediatly in the artical that Eskimo is no longer used but Inuit is good.

Thank you,

Your Arctic defense against many nations in north america. And believe me it is busy up here since the channel opened from climate change. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 205.234.63.82 (talk) 07:27, 9 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I can understand the concern, but that is what the activity of rubbing noses as a greeting is commonly called. My solution would be to delete the article as non-notable and I will propose that.--ukexpat (talk) 17:32, 9 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
On second thoughts, this is notable and I have removed the PRODWarning, my apologies.--ukexpat (talk) 17:38, 9 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I also think it's notable, perhaps a small explanation can be given however that clarifies the "misnomer" that this apparently is? --TheDJ (talk • contribs) 19:04, 9 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Having done some slight reading on the even less than rare web sources that there seem to be for "kunik", I think it might be an idea, to move the entire article to kunik and then discuss both topics at the same time... --TheDJ (talk • contribs) 20:24, 9 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

There's nothing really wrong using the term Eskimo, although it may sound pejorative mostly to Canadians, it isn't, and is part of the English language. You may want to check out Eskimo#Terminology: Eskimo and alternate terms & Origin of the name Eskimo. "Eskimo Kissing" is a far more widely used term and often refers to the western method of rubbing noses against each other, while the term kunik (the original Inuit form) returns almost no relevant results elsewhere. Eskimo Kissing is merely a term which is not aimed solely at Inuits, but has also been noted as a practice elsewhere, such as in parts of Asia and Africa [1] [2] [3] The actual Eskimo Kissing (kunik, or even Polynesian kissing), or 'rubbing of noses', varies per culture and region, so changing this page to 'kunik' would be less broad of a term and more useless than anything. -- Io Katai (talk) 22:19, 9 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
The article, as Io Katai noted, is here because it's probably the most common name for this. If you look you can see that inukshuk (inukhuk or inuksuk), igloo (iglu) and kayak (qajaq) are at the English spellings and not one of the many Inuit language/Eskimo-Aleut languages dialects. The other thing is that there is no one single correct word for all the people living in the Arctic. Eskimo covers some people and Inuit covers some people. But Inuit is not the single correct term for all the people that live in Canada although most people believe it is. The article can't be moved to "kunik" as there is no indication that the word refers only to this practise. According to both the Inuinnaqtun-English Dictionary that I have and the Asuilaak Living Dictionary it just means "kissing". If the article requires moving then, based on the fact that other cultures do it, something like Nose kissing or Nose rubbing might be better. In the past 30 years I have only ever heard of kunik being used to refer to regular kissing. One problem I see with the article is that it, like some other Inuit/Eskimo articles, does not define how widespread the practise might have been. CambridgeBayWeather (Talk) 02:14, 10 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I think what would probably be most helpful would be to leave the listing where it is but also possibly redirect searches for Kunik to the eskimo kissing page. I could be wrong- just my two cents. (Talk) —Preceding comment was added at 13:46, 11 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

As a result of this discussion, this article is moved to kunik, not vice versa. Thank you. ThanksgivingDay (talk) 18:07, 28 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Next time please consult the talk page before moving the page. The discussion and concensus was keep the article as-is, not vice-versa. - Io Katai (talk) 23:23, 28 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

"Bunny kissing"?[edit]

Final paragraph, on the supposed alternate term "bunny kissing", is completely unsourced. I've edited it to remove the reference to a third photo in the article, but the rest of the paragraph bugs me for some reason too. Not finding any Google results for the term in this context, nor for the supposed texting shorthand. —Preceding unsigned comment added by AquaHaute (talk • contribs) 14:25, 5 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Tried to clean it up and improve the language a little, but it's still entirely unsourced and unverifiable. Probably needs to go altogether.AquaHaute (talk) 14:31, 5 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I think it should go, it's unsouced, and I can't find any info on it. I see the paragraph was removed, and it was added again, again with a reference to a photo not even on the page, I am going to revert it. Funkfrost (talk) 21:58, 6 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

"Bunny kissing" exists in Peru[edit]

I have visited Peru many times, and in their local dialect Quechua, bunny kissing is a common phrase used. "Conechio bisichoa" is what is said. Fly to Peru and visit the locals in the Andes Mountains, and then you will understand. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Panboy (talk • contribs) 03:40, 7 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Yupik kiss?[edit]

The article mentions only Inuit kissing, although reference [2] describes it among the Yupik too. The Yup'ik word for it may be "kunik" also; but I am suspicious that there would be only one word among the five Yup'ik languages and the Arctic-coast Inuit continuum of languages. Perhaps some Eskimo readers of this can shed some light. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.240.78.1 (talk) 00:15, 1 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Arab Gulf kissing[edit]

http://archive.fo/iemTL — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A02:587:410C:2F00:216E:529D:6D06:9AC8 (talk) 10:24, 21 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

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Image change?[edit]

I noticed that today (7 April 2020) there was an edit that changed the image to show an older woman touching her nose to the cheek of a child. The previous revision had an image of a male and female touching noses. I don't have a particular opinion about which is more correct - I am just noting that there is a rather dramatic difference between the two. Others with stronger opinions may (or may not) wish to debate the change. - Dyork (talk) 02:08, 8 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The old image is fine. These edits are coming in from brand new and unregistered users (perhaps the same person?) Whatever this greeting is going to be called ultimately for the title of this page, people around the world use this gesture, and we already have an image representing the cultural origins in the relevant section. Nelsonblaha (talk) 17:38, 9 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The old image (image of a male and female touching noses) breaks no image guidelines and is clearly a good example of an image with an educational purpose. There is no reason to remove or replace the old image according to said guidelines. Rakudaniku (talk) 18:41, 9 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I think the change on April 7th was related to this podcast episode of "Ologies" [4]
The request by the podcast host was to change both the page title and lead picture to be more culturally-sensitive (as the term "Eskimo" is problematic and the lead photo would ideally show the cultural context this developed in). Do we have any good pictures we could consider using instead of the current lead? (that picture could still be included later in the article)
As for the page title, that might take some more work but we might also consider changing it to Nose Kissing or Kunik as well. Myoglobin (talk) 01:59, 5 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Swapped the pictures and renamed the second picture's caption; still need to look into changing the page name. Myoglobin (talk) 02:12, 5 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
The term is most-widely referred to and known as an "Eskimo Kiss", so changing the name has been discussed and dropped (see "The word Eskimo is bad language" above and conclusions). As for the image placement, the old lead (the two young people) adequately fits the initial description's "various cultures" and the generally-recognized gesture. The kunik displayed is more properly placed by the "Inuit" heading so that people will be educated on the Inuit custom. I have reverted the edit to match these comments. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.224.53.132 (talk) 19:54, 5 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
That previous comment was by me. I accidentally wasn't logged in. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Sinisterstarr (talk • contribs) 20:15, 5 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion was in 2008 and things may have changed. I changed the caption to ensure that it is clear the couple are ont Inuit/Eskimo. Funny thing is but I've been in the Arctic since 1974 and I've never seen two people do that. On the other hand the Elder with the baby is common. CambridgeBayWeather, Uqaqtuq (talk), Huliva 04:28, 7 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Change title to Nose rub or Nose kiss?[edit]

I have restored the material deleted as Wikipedia is not WP:CENSORED. That said, I think it is best to convert the article into one about "nose rub" or "nose kiss". The gesture is not limited to Inuit cultures [5] so it would be good to have a general article which can describe nose rubbing from other cultures as well.--DreamLinker (talk) 12:57, 14 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I agree with the title change and article expansion., DreamLinker, but I have reverted the article to not include the slur. The gesture may not be limited to Inuit culture, but the article is about the Kunik in large part and was before the edits -- should you wish to expand the article to nose kissing and its various manifestations, absolutely go for it -- but as things are, it's not about censorship. "Considered a slur" and an etymology section focusing on settlers who "discovered" the Inuit" are trivializing and tokenizing; censorship and changing articles to better represent the culture they're discussing are two different things. Your approach is very color-blind, and has a veneer of "preserving information" but the origin of "Eskimo" as a slur is already available on the Inuit page. Cjseaslug (talk) 18:44, 14 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I would appreciate if you don't edit war. Please read WP:BRD. You made an edit and I reverted it. We now discuss it here. From what I checked, the article is about the nose rubbing gesture in general. You are trying to remove the term "Eskimo kiss" entirely, however we do not censor terms. The information is useful in the etymology section. I understand that the term was used by people of European descent and it is considered offensive by some members of Inuit communities - that should be mentioned in the article as well so that people who read it understand the full context. Additionally, I agree that the description of "Kunik" from the perspective of the Inuit should be mentioned (would you help me to find some references for this?). There needs to be some consensus to convert this article into one about a nose rub though, so I will start an RFC.--DreamLinker (talk) 21:36, 14 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

RfC: Change subject of Eskimo kissing[edit]

The current article is centred on the Western gesture called "Eskimo kiss" which is based on the "Kunik" gesture from Inuit culture. I am trying to solicit opinions from editors about how to change the article subject. Here are some suggestions -

  • Option 1 - Change to Nose rub - Change to a general article about nose rub. Explain the various types of nose rubs in different cultures
  • Option 2 - Centre on Eskimo kiss - Centre the article on the Western gesture called "Eskimo kiss" (explain anything else in context)
  • Option 3 - Centre on Kunik - Centre the article on the Inuit gesture "Kunik" (explain anything else in context)
  • Option 4 - Split Kunik into a new article - As Kunik may not the same as Eskimo kiss

(Suggestions are not limited to the options, any other suggestion is also welcome)--DreamLinker (talk) 22:18, 14 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Survey[edit]

  • DreamLinker I have not seen RfC get good results when it's as open ended as this. I would instead suggest removing the RfC template and requesting a move to the title that you think best captures the scope that the article should cover. Then, we see if there's consensus for that. (t · c) buidhe 01:10, 15 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment: these sources imply kunik and nose rubs are different:
  • "Eskimo Kisses, Arm Hair, Moon Flags & Spike Lee vs. Stan Lee vs. Bruce Lee". Esquire Magazine. 2007-05-09. Retrieved 2008-01-09. Inuit do not touch noses end to end or rub them back and forth against each other.
  • Stuckenberger, Anja Nicole (2005). Community at Play: Social and Religious Dynamics in the Modern Inuit Community of Qikiqtarjuaq. Rozenberg. p. 109. ISBN 978-90-5170-957-5. a kunik (inhaling hard through the nose that touches the other person's skin)
  • Touyz, L.Z.G. (2014). "Kissing and HPV: honest popular visions, the human papilloma virus, and cancers". Current Oncology. 21 (3): 515. doi:10.3747/co.21.1970. ISSN 1718-7729. PMC 4059815. PMID 24940111. An affectionate greeting among the Inuit in Northern Canada called a kunik involves pressing the nose and upper lip to cheek or forehead of the loved one.

Wondering what we need is a split rather than a renaming. Rotideypoc41352 (talk · contribs) 04:02, 15 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

  • Split - The proposed move to Kunik failed because the participants couldn't come to consensus on which of two topics the article is actually about. Splitting eliminates this problem. Ibadibam (talk) 16:59, 24 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Extended discussion[edit]

  • buidhe I understand your concern about the open RFC. Actually I wanted to solicit more opinions since I was not sure how best to organise this article. I initially though of an RM, but it would have limited the discussion to moving the article, while I am open to an alternate solution. --DreamLinker (talk) 08:23, 15 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Split kunik into a new article? Rotideypoc41352 Thank you for your suggestion. I think you might be correct. In a source I checked it says "the traditional Canadian Inuit kunik, or "Eskimo kiss", does not actually involve rubbing noses together"[1]

References

  1. ^ Kirshenbaum, Sheril (5 January 2011). "The Science of Kissing: What Our Lips Are Telling Us". Grand Central Publishing. p. 18. Retrieved 15 February 2021.
As they are not the same, perhaps splitting the article might be a better choice after all. The kunik is clearly the Inuit cultural greeting, while "Eskimo kiss" is the term used for a type of nose rubbing (which was loosely based on the kunik).--DreamLinker (talk) 08:49, 15 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move 15 February 2021[edit]

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: not moved. (closed by non-admin page mover) Jack Frost (talk) 11:57, 21 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]


– Eskimo is a slur and "Eskimo kissing" was a term created by white colonizers. This page has been edited to center around Inuit perspective, as Kunik is the Inuit term, and the Wikidata entry has been edited and aliased correctly to reflect. Cjseaslug (talk) 07:09, 14 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

This is a contested technical request (permalink). GeoffreyT2000 (talk) 04:17, 15 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Note: Kunik titles a dab page with significant content and so is ineligible to be a target title in a move request unless it is also proposed to be renamed. This request has been altered to reflect that fact. P.I. Ellsworth  ed. put'r there 07:33, 15 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Perhaps it should instead be reformatted into a nose-touch kissing article instead, as there are other cultures that use that greeting. -- 65.93.183.33 (talk) 08:18, 14 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose I don't think that this is the primary topic of Kunik based on Google Searches that turn up different results. Neutral on Kunik (greeting) or similar. (t · c) buidhe 08:26, 15 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support Kunik (greeting) or similar. Certainly anything would be better than a title that uses a slur for the culture it's discussing. I do think it's worth retaining as an article in its own right, using its own terminology, just as Hongi is: they may be similar in that they involve the nose but they also differ in the details and in the whole cultural and spiritual context. Hongi also provides a good precedent for naming the article using the term from the culture it derives from. --Zeborah (talk) 09:19, 15 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
@Zeborah: you might want to check the RfC above I started. It has multiple suggestions, including creating a separate article on Kunik (as you suggested above) --DreamLinker (talk) 09:30, 15 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Okay I'm confused: this is the discussion linked from the article itself so I thought this is where I should comment. Should I put it in the section above instead, or is there an external place where it's being discussed? I tried following links and ended up going around in circles. --Zeborah (talk) 10:07, 15 February 2021 (UTC) (originally 09:35, 15 February 2021 (UTC))[reply]
@Zeborah: You can post at both places. This one is more about moving the existing article. The RFC above is more open ended (such as should we create a new article about Kunik).--DreamLinker (talk) 10:26, 15 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

For the record, Eskimo is not, nor has it ever been a slur. The public narrative in Canada is that it is a slur, so the word is not used in Canada. It was labeled as such over a later debunked claim that the word originated from the Algonquian meaning 'eaters of raw meat.' but, it actually means something like 'snow shoe wearers'.

The only Eskimo cultural group in Canada is Inuiτ, so discontinuance of the use of 'Eskimo' is not problematic. But in Alaska (and Russia), there are several different Eskimo cultures, each with their own names (Yupik is the largest, and there are Inupiat, and other.) only the Inupiat can be considered 'Inuit' and the Yupik particularly object to being called Inuit. 'Eskimo' is the name for collective family of these related cultures (Inuit, Yupik, etc) (in the same way that English and Dutch are Germanic and Welsh and Irish are Celtic). And, it is the only (neutral) word that exists that fits this purpose. Firejuggler86 (talk) 10:50, 15 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

  • This is my first 'talk' entry - I believe there may be multiple issues at play here. Kunik (greeting) seems to be a far more appropriate title, and if I understand correctly, 'Eskimo Kissing' can be redirected there. I am uncertain why the old title and article would need to be preserved, and would also support reframing the article to better reflect Inuit perspectives on a greeting and term that refers to their culture. I would be happy to be part of this process. Gamorasguts (talk) 22:00, 15 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I think the issue is there are 2 different subjects - one is a general nose-rub (termed as 'Eskimo kiss' in Western countries) and another is the Kunik (which is the Inuit greeting...and which is not a nose rub). Nose rub is a general topic and exists in multiple cultures. It would be unfair to centre this article on the Inuit greeting.--DreamLinker (talk) 16:22, 16 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose roflmao, no, Eskimo is in no way a slur; it's the preferred nomenclature for the Alaskan tribes it refers to. Also, WP:COMMONNAME applies. Red Slash 19:42, 16 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose: use the common name, not one few readers will know. Jonathunder (talk) 21:31, 16 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment I'm not sure if this RfC became exclusively about changing the name of the article to "Kunik" or if the change to "Nose rub" is still on the table. I would support changing the name about the general practice to its most common name, which is "nose rubbing", a practice that takes place all over the world, with or without the Eskimo connection. I also support splitting Kunik into its own article, since it is a much more specific practice and some sources argue it is quite different from general nose rubbing, but only if enough sources could be mustered to prove its notability as a stand-alone article. If not, Kunik should be a section of the more general article. PraiseVivec (talk) 13:55, 17 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
@PraiseVivec: I would support that alternative. Jonathunder (talk) 15:19, 17 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I would oppose it, as no indication has been given that it's the common name other than a blind assertion Red Slash 17:11, 17 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
It's literally the description of the practice, tho. Surely it's preferable to the inaccurate and racially charged "Eskimo Kiss" nomenclature. PraiseVivec (talk) 18:15, 18 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
@PraiseVivec: I think a problem is that "Kunik" is not exactly a "nose rub". It is related in the sense that "Eskimo kiss" was inspired by it. So I am generally not in favour of including it as part of nose-rub. Btw, this is the RM which is more about moving the article. I created the RFC above to solicit more ideas about how to restructure the article (including that we could leave this article like this, but create a new article about Kunik)--DreamLinker (talk) 01:15, 18 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Category[edit]

@Nelsonblaha: Category:Inuit culture is a subcategory of Category:Eskimo culture so per WP:SUBCAT the latter can be removed. Marcocapelle (talk) 20:11, 25 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@Marcocapelle makes sense, sorry for the revert. Unreverting, thanks Nelsonblaha (talk) 20:23, 25 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Contradiction[edit]

It is Wikipedia policy that illustrations are informative rather than (purely?) decorative. In this article, we read that the article is about something defined (or described) as " pressing or rubbing the tip of one's nose against another's cheek." Right next to this is a picture of two people NOT doing that; instead, they are about to press or rub the tips of their noses. In other words, N+Ch ≠N+N. Kdammers (talk) 20:36, 14 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The article is talking about two different things. The "kunik" that was mistranslated to "Eskimo kiss" and what is know outside of the north as an "Eskimo kiss". Fixed. Both images should be there to show both actions. CambridgeBayWeather, Uqaqtuq (talk), Huliva 16:11, 16 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
This article really needs to be split up into a more general version and have kunik as a separate article linked to it along with hongi etc. This article reminds me of many of the Sámi-related articles, which are a combination of a semi-failed non-Sámi understanding of a concept (cf. the first photo) and just enough pertinent content that it makes it difficult to split up such as with gákti. Considering this is the first hit on Google for kunik, I think we have a particular responsibility to stop spreading incorrect information. - Yupik (talk) 08:49, 25 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
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