Talk:Elizabeth Holmes

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Text and/or other creative content from this version of Elizabeth Holmes was copied or moved into United States v. Elizabeth A. Holmes, et al. with this edit on 01:43, 27 January 2022‎. The former page's history now serves to provide attribution for that content in the latter page, and it must not be deleted as long as the latter page exists.

Page notices and readership

Why are there so many additional topics for this person?[edit]

It feels like this wiki has been watered down to downplay this persons criminal activities.

we have promotional activities, connections, recognition, and in the media as superfluous sections in the article. These don’t seem necessarily and seemingly only exist to add more content that veers away from this persons actual noteworthiness. I move that these sections are reduced as they seem self promoting and create a self serving narrative to what is supposed to be a neutral article. 2600:4041:5872:C500:61F3:6EB7:A3BF:6C44 (talk) 05:09, 1 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Comparable articles would be Bernie Madoff, Bernard Ebbers, & Jeffrey Skilling. There are probably others with which to compare at Category:American confidence tricksters & Category:American people convicted of fraud. Peaceray (talk) 05:53, 1 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I agree. Holmes was not a businesswoman who got caught up in some kind of fraud. Rather, she was a confidence artist the whole time. For some reason there is a concerted effort to whitewash her misdeeds. 72.76.158.105 (talk) 12:24, 7 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Look at the RfC above where people think the opposite the article goes too far in calling her a criminal. It goes back and forth like that. There is no conspiracy. But be careful of your own biases. -- GreenC 14:17, 1 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Prison[edit]

Is she now in prison? 2A00:23C6:658C:9501:C821:CB71:2AEC:5A5E (talk) 13:45, 8 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, according to the article. "Holmes is incarcerated at Federal Prison Camp, Bryan." --Yamla (talk) 13:57, 8 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

American former biotechnology entrepreneur[edit]

The lead section says she is "former". This is unusual phrasing. We don't normally say "former".

A simplified fictional example:

"Joe Smith is a writer, parachutist, professional chef and public speaker"

In fact, Mr. Smith is 88 years old, has not parachuted since his 20s, was a chef in his 40s-60s and recently published a memoir and gives public talks.

We don't say:

"Joe Smith is a writer, a former parachutist, a former professional chef, and a public speaker

The active status of a career label is not typical for the lead sentence for two reasons.

Maybe Joe Smith will start parachuting again? It would be impolite and unprofessional to assume otherwise. Unless he has publicly stated he has quit the sport. Elizabeth Holmes may be writing her next business plan right now, to pitch to investors, actively engaging in entrepreneurial activities. We don't know what she is doing with her life to declare in wikivoice she is no longer an entrepreneur.
Joe Smith never stopped being a parachutist as a description. Per WP:LEAD the first sentence should indicate what they are notable for. Holmes is notable for two things: being a very famous biotech entrepreneur (pre-conviction), and being convicted of fraud (post-conviction). Her notability was worded as being a "former" entrepreneur, which is not the same thing as being a notable entrepreneur.

We should simply state their reason for notability in the first sentence, and not engage in wording that attempts to downplay what they are notable for. Per BLP. -- GreenC 18:35, 5 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Inaccurate description of subject[edit]

Elizabeth Holmes was a con artist and not an entrepreneur. The opening description of this person is misleading. Comparitively, the Wiki article for Billy McFarland cites him as a con artist, not a festival organizer. 159.2.21.193 (talk) 18:36, 6 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Well, to be accurate - the two articles describe each person in the lede as:

William Zervakos McFarland (born December 11, 1991) is an American businessman whose enterprises have been characterized by fraud
Elizabeth Anne Holmes (born February 3, 1984) is an American biotechnology entrepreneur who was convicted of fraud in connection to her blood-testing company, Theranos

They're actually pretty similar? Seems like the this article is more severe to Holmes than the McFarland article in description? Also the article unequivocally supports the "entrepreneur" claim. Chaheel Riens (talk) 18:57, 6 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

There is a continuous stream of editors violating BLP, across nearly every article about a criminal on Wikipedia. They modify the lead section to label the person disparagingly ("con artist", "thief", "killer", etc..). It feels so good and righteous - they are self-anointed judge and jury, heroes of all humanity (in their mind). In fact, they are a unregulated mob with no limits in how far they can go to attack people.

The psychological basis behind this is explained in my essay The Instinct to Punish, and we have an essay Wikipedia:Crime labels on how to respond. In general, when it's an IP on a talk page the best solution is to remove the post entirely as a violation of BLP. For the record, no court in any country has determined that Holmes is a "con artist", that is purely subjective label, and not one we should state in Wikivoice, in the article, or anywhere else. Wikipedia is not in the business of punishing people, although many people use it that way, they become energized and motivated by it - again see my essay for why it feels so good and is a continuous problem on Wikipedia, and society wide. -- GreenC 19:20, 6 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]