Talk:Eliezer Melamed

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reliable source: http://www.nrg.co.il/online/1/ART1/425/905.html . See also page 'Article' --MaorHL (talk) 14:27, 26 May 2013 (UTC)

Honorific

The inclusion of "Rabbi" in the opening sentence is inappropriate, per WP:CREDENTIAL; one editor tried to justified it by saying that it is also a WP:HONORIFIC... but per that guidelines, "styles and honorifics related to clergy" are specifically called out in the first sentence as things that are to be avoided. --Nat Gertler (talk) 16:32, 30 September 2014 (UTC)

Unless they are commonly attached, as in the case of rabbis, who are commonly referred to as "rabbi such and such". That is why it is the accepted practice to have "Rabbi" in front of the names of rabbis. Debresser (talk) 17:18, 30 September 2014 (UTC)

Again, you are shifting the goalposts from what WP:HONORIFIC actually says. First off, its exception is applied to individuals, not to categories as a blanket exception for a position; the exceptions for Father Coughlin and Mother Theresa do not apply to all Fathers and Mothers. Next, you are lowering the requirements - it is not going by what is "commonly" done, but what is "so commonly attached to a name that the name is rarely found in English reliable sources without it". In the case of the actual subject of this article, I can find it used without it even in the sources provided (as as this Haaretz headline and again in the article, or in The Jewish Daily Forward and that paper's blog, and at the Times of Israel, for just some examples. --Nat Gertler (talk) 18:40, 30 September 2014 (UTC)

I know what WP:HONORIFIC says, and I know that it mentions individuals. That, however, does not make it any less true when it applies to a group or category of people. I am aware that there are alaways exceptions, especially in headers, where telegram style is often used for shortness, but the rule is definitely to add the title "rabbi" to the name of any rabbi, in conversation as well as in literature. And, again, such is also common practice on Wikipedia in articles about rabbis. If the guideline does not mention this, that doesn't make the facts any less true. Debresser (talk) 04:02, 1 October 2014 (UTC)

All clergy are "commonly" referred to with a title or honorific, not just Rabbis, and yet we do have that rule in place. To claim the headline is an exception is to ignore that it also happens in the body of the one article I cited. That there has been other bad editing in rabbi-related articles is a reason for correcting those, not for degrading this article. If you and other editors feel there absolutely must be some special exception made for rabbis, you are welcome to bring it up like any other change to the Manual Of Style and gain consensus of the community... but to ask me to ignore the Manual of Style and/or Haaretz, the Forward, and the Times Of Israel. The exceptions made in WP:HONORIFICS for such things as "Mother Theresa" are merely parallels to what is done for stage names and pseudonyms in WP:CREDENTIALS, and is clearly not intended to provide an override for a whole body of clergy. --Nat Gertler (talk) 15:05, 1 October 2014 (UTC)

I can tell you that in articles about rabbis the title rabbi is removed from all instances but the first line. Let me check this article again. Debresser (talk) 17:33, 1 October 2014 (UTC)

Response to third opinion request:

I am responding to a third opinion request for this page. I have made no previous edits on Eliezer Melamed and have no known association with the editors involved in this discussion. The third opinion process is informal and I have no special powers or authority apart from being a fresh pair of eyes.

WP:HONORIFIC does call out clergy explicitly, and it does not make any exception for those that are commonly used in real life. Nat is correct to point out that all clergy are referred to with their honorifics in real life, and that this does not mean that we do so on Wikipedia. The only way that rabbis can be an exception would be for the guideline to make an explicit exception. If that is wanted, the way to go would be to get a consensus for it at WT:MOSBIO. Until such a consensus is established, doing it is a MOS violation. The fact that it has been done often is irrelevant. De facto doesn't overrule de jure. Stfg (talk) 22:35, 5 October 2014 (UTC)

My claim that there is de facto consensus regarding rabbis is enough. I have no problem starting a process to make this part of the guidelines, but it is my understanding that there is no point in changing a widestanding practice till that time, and that doing so would counter the spirit of Wikipedia guidelines. Wikipedia policies and guidelines are not a law book, and allow for applying reason. I'll post on WT:JUDAISM, and based on that will either propose a change to the honorifics guideline, or will remove all instances of "rabbi".Debresser (talk) 11:18, 6 October 2014 (UTC)

After thinking it over a little more, and looking up a few articles about rabbis, I see that this is not as widespread as I thought, so I take back my opposition on this issue. Thank you for your patience. Debresser (talk) 01:54, 10 October 2014 (UTC)

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