Talk:Elias Ashmole

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Elias Ashmole is a featured article; it (or a previous version of it) has been identified as one of the best articles produced by the Wikipedia community. Even so, if you can update or improve it, please do so.

This article appeared on Wikipedia's Main Page as Today's featured article on June 4, 2006.

Article milestones
Date	Process	Result
June 18, 2005	Peer review	Reviewed
July 24, 2005	Featured article candidate	Promoted
March 13, 2008	Featured article review	Kept
A fact from this article was featured on Wikipedia's Main Page in the "On this day..." column on May 23, 2018.
Current status: Featured article

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Name[edit]

What is the derivation of this unusual surname? Badagnani 03:20, 4 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Most likely a variation of Ashmore, originally a place name meaning "ash moor" (or "mere", i.e. "lake"). There is an Ashmore in Dorset. --Dhartung | Talk 05:27, 4 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you! Perhaps this, if it could be verified, could be added to the article. It's funny that the "r" was exchanged for an "l," because this transposition is much more common of many speakers of East and Southeast Asian languages, many of which don't have a clear distinction between the two phonemes. Badagnani 07:30, 4 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I see you or someone else has incorporated that, using a source I wasn't going to use. :-S Anyway, the L-R transposition is not unknown in European languages -- compare "castle" and "castro", off the top of my head. --Dhartung | Talk 07:47, 5 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

School in london[edit]

This year was my last year in the Ashmole School located in london. When I first arrived at the school I was informed of a connection to Elias ashmole, of which I am unclear in; however there is definately a secondaryt school/sixth form in his name. http://www.ashmole.barnet.sch.uk/ Website of the school In question. Should it be mentioned in the article, or is it too small for a mention? If its not too small, I can provide images and information on the school itself. Jackpot Den 14:53, 4 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

If there is a clear link between Elias Ashmole and the school then there could be scope to include it, he clearly has a legacy which may be of interest. It would be useful if you could find out a little more about the subject to introduce it.ALR 14:11, 5 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Cannot edit this page?[edit]

I have tried to correct the misspelling (probably intentional) of the subject's name in a few paragraphs, but when I enter the editing view the name appears correctly spelled. I'm not an experienced wiki editor; can someone more knowledgeable figure out what's going on?? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.6.2.209 (talk • contribs)

If you're talking about stuff like "assmole" or "asshole", that's vandalism that has been cleaned up by the time you click on the edit button. We're quick around here! --Dhartung | Talk 07:44, 5 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

yes there is a clear link between Elias and Ashmole school. The school was named after him and there is a large portrait (the same one on the wiki page) of him in the main hall

Ashmole & Freemasonry[edit]

In the section about Ashmole's Masonic membership there are these two conflicting sentences: First, after quoting from Ashmole's diary in which he gives an accounting of his initiation in 1646, it then says, "Although there is only one other mention of Masonic activity in his diary he seems to have remained in good standing and well-connected with the fraternity as he was still attending meetings in 1682." Then it gives an account, quoted from Ashmole's diary about the meetings he attended in that year. Then, at the end of the paragraph it gives this conflicting statement: "Apart from these two, solitary entries in his autobiographical notes, there is no evidence whatsoever of Ashmole's involvement with early Freemasonry, whatever that was. Much has been speculated about Ashmole the Freemason; the evidence, however, is virtually non-existent."

I'm not certain how, after quoting from two separate entries about Ashmole's initiation at Warrington, and then again about his later involvement at meetings some 36 years later, both of which were written in Ashmole's own hand, one clueless Wikipedia editor writes: "Much has been speculated about Ashmole the Freemason; the evidence, however, is virtually non-existent." The "evidence," however, had just been quoted! How can it be "virtually non-existent?" This is the problem -- the inherent weakness, if you will -- of Wikipedia. What is the average reader to think when he reads these two conflicting entries, both in the same paragraph?

On the one hand, you have enthusiastic Freemasons wanting to make more of Ashmole's Masonic career than it probably warranted. Ashmole the man was probably more a product of the sum total of his environment than he was a product of Freemasonry alone. On the other hand, those editors with a anti-Masonic predisposition are more likely to discount his Masonic membership.

The reality is that Ashmole was probably somewhere in the middle. He was most likely admitted to the fraternity because some of his friends and acquaintances -- both his own family members like Col. Mainwaring, as well as some of his colleagues in the Royal Society -- were members of the Freemasons. And so it became a benign connection between them that they could quietly share, but not one that would be prominently featured in his daily diary entries.

But in this polarized world of red states and blue states that we live in today, where nothing is gray, or "middle of the road," you won't find many reasonable assessments like the one I just wrote above appearing in Wikipedia articles. More's the pity. PGNormand 16:29, 17 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Ashmole & Esotericism[edit]

The article says that AShmole's studies into Alchemy, Kaballah etc 'were essentially backward-looking'. I'd like to know why? Is it because the article writer finds this side of his life embarressing? It may well be that these studies were absolutely integral to his career as a historian, scientist and thinker as well as philanthropist. Given the research scholars like Frances Yates put into tracing the influence of these ideas and their devotees on the development of Western culture, philosophy and science I think this needs a little reevaluation. Modern psychologists like Jung studied these subjects too. Were they 'essentially backward-looking'. Obviously not. Ashmole's career as a Freemason would have indicated that study of the esoteric was fundamental to how he lived his life as in those days that was what Freemasonryw as. 80.169.172.243 15:54, 22 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I would agree that the "backward-looking" needs to be rethought (but for a different reason). Isaac Newton and Robert Boyle were also dedicated alchemists and they are not described as "backward-looking." It is all about historical context. Awadewit 11:38, 3 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The man is an antiquarian. Of course he's backward-looking. Occultism, however, is probably more popular today than his collection of artifacts. "Backward-looking" is simply applied to the wrong part of this article. 67.49.247.73 17:25, 6 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Please look again at the writings of Frances Yates. She takes the work of Marin Mersenne,Quaestiones celeberrimae in Genesim (1623) as watershed in late renaissnance thoughtas regards magic. In her terms, Ashmole would beregarded as backward looking. If this analysis is attributed to sources then the querent can consider the view in its context. Harrypotter 20:18, 3 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Proposal to remove date-autoformatting[edit]

Dear fellow contributors

MOSNUM no longer encourages date autoformatting, having evolved over the past year or so from the mandatory to the optional after much discussion there and elsewhere of the disadvantages of the system. Related to this, MOSNUM prescribes rules for the raw formatting, irrespective of whether or not dates are autoformatted. MOSLINK and CONTEXT are consistent with this.

There are at least six disadvantages in using date-autoformatting, which I've capped here:

Disadvantages of date-autoformatting

(1) In-house only

(a) It works only for the WP "elite".
(b) To our readers out there, it displays all-too-common inconsistencies in raw formatting in bright-blue underlined text, yet conceals them from WPians who are logged in and have chosen preferences.
(c) It causes visitors to query why dates are bright-blue and underlined.

(2) Avoids what are merely trivial differences

(a) It is trivial whether the order is day–month or month–day. It is more trivial than color/colour and realise/realize, yet our consistency-within-article policy on spelling (WP:ENGVAR) has worked very well. English-speakers readily recognise both date formats; all dates after our signatures are international, and no one objects.

(3) Colour-clutter: the bright-blue underlining of all dates

(a) It dilutes the impact of high-value links.
(b) It makes the text slightly harder to read.
(c) It doesn't improve the appearance of the page.

(4) Typos and misunderstood coding

(a) There's a disappointing error-rate in keying in the auto-function; not bracketing the year, and enclosing the whole date in one set of brackets, are examples.
(b) Once autoformatting is removed, mixtures of US and international formats are revealed in display mode, where they are much easier for WPians to pick up than in edit mode; so is the use of the wrong format in country-related articles.
(c) Many WPians don't understand date-autoformatting—in particular, how if differs from ordinary linking; often it's applied simply because it's part of the furniture.

(5) Edit-mode clutter

(a) It's more work to enter an autoformatted date, and it doesn't make the edit-mode text any easier to read for subsequent editors.

(6) Limited application

(a) It's incompatible with date ranges ("January 3–9, 1998", or "3–9 January 1998", and "February–April 2006") and slashed dates ("the night of May 21/22", or "... 21/22 May").
(b) By policy, we avoid date autoformatting in such places as quotations; the removal of autoformatting avoids this inconsistency.

Removal has generally been met with positive responses by editors. I'm seeking feedback about this proposal to remove it from the main text (using a script) in about a week's time on a trial basis. The original input formatting would be seen by all WPians, not just the huge number of visitors; it would be plain, unobtrusive text, which would give greater prominence to the high-value links. BTW, anyone has the right to object, and my aim is not to argue against people on the issue. Tony (talk) 12:32, 30 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

New file File:Elias Ashmole by John Riley.jpg[edit]

Recently the file File:Elias Ashmole by John Riley.jpg (right) was uploaded and it appears to be relevant to this article and not currently used by it. If you're interested and think it would be a useful addition, please feel free to include it. This appears to be different from the existing John Riley portrait in the article. Dcoetzee 12:30, 6 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

External links modified[edit]

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Loyalty[edit]

Ashmole is here described solely as a Royalist, however in the late Martin Short's skeptical review of Freemasonry, Inside The Brotherhood, 1989, there is a disquieting rumour:

England's first recorded initiate, Elias Ashmole, was a captain in Lord Ashley's Royalist regiment when he joined a Warrington lodge in 1646. In his diary he says his fellow-initiate that day was Colonel Henry Mainwaring, who was a Parliamentarian. He was also Ashmole's father-in-law. Ashmole had been captured by the Roundheads, but also by a Roundhead's daughter and by Freemasonry. He changed sides and returned to London a Roundhead himself. It seems likely that he became a Mason to appease his captors, even to save his own skin.

Chap. 31.

I desperately hope this is untrue: the masonry is unimportant; but to betray his King meant becoming a damned soul.

Claverhouse (talk) 22:14, 27 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]