Talk:Edmund Barton

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A mason?[edit]

[SOME MATERIAL LOST FROM HERE ...] that's ridiculous. the fact he was a mason as sourced here [1] should be known widely in his bio. to call it "link-spam" is almost criminal. Rcm 10:15, 25 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

That's rather a bit of hyperbole. You were systematically adding the same text to successive pages in often irrelevant areas with an external link. I took this to be spam. Please integrate the reference with the article, rather than just tacking it on the end.--cj | talk 04:11, 27 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Racist?[edit]

Would Barton be considered a racist in todays terms? It seems he made quite a number of crazy or "gyatistic" speaches, namely the need to " secure the future of our fair country against the tide of inferior and unequal asians arriving from the north".AQjosh 01:17, 4 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Off course he's a racist, calling another race inferior automatically qualify him as suchCanpark 14:50, 24 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

A direct quote is "There is no racial equality. There is basic inequality. These races are, in comparison with white races—I think no one wants convincing of this fact—unequal and inferior."

https://www.aph.gov.au/About_Parliament/Parliamentary_Departments/Parliamentary_Library/pubs/APF/monographs/Within_Chinas_Orbit/Chapterone Donh1952 (talk) 03:49, 31 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I'd like to see a source for that quote. Of course Barton supported White Australia, as did virtually everyone in Australia at that time, but that language seems rather more crude than I would expect from Barton. Plus there was no "tide of asians arriving from the north" in 1901. All the colonies had banned Asian immigration years before. The immediate target of the 1901 legislation was the Kanakas in Queensland, not the is accurate. Contrast with Deakin who argues against Asian immigration on a protectionist basis. Barton does however take a narrower line than Watson and others who were pushing for a complete ban on all "coloured" migrants. --bainer (talk) 15:17, 24 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I'd like to point out that the Protectionists, Free Trade Party, and the Labour Party all supported a white australia as was the social norm at the time. Timeshift 02:56, 21 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I think it's obvious it was a social norm at the time, for the elected prime minister to be racist evinces that. However, it doesn't change it from being racist. There are forms of racism that are social norms now. You can qualify it by mentioning that racism was the norm at the time, if that makes it sound less pejorative to you. See the wikipedia article Racism for discussion of its meanings. --- and you will know know me by the trail of dead. 00:06, 28 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I 100% agree that it's still racism. I never said it wasn't. Just pointing out virtually every single person you would have known if you lived back then were extreme racists by today's standards. Timeshift 00:11, 28 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Cabinet?[edit]

'Bold textwho was in sir edmund barton's cabinet???

As far as I can recall, his cabinet consisted mostly of the former Premiers (except the Tasmanian Premier) plus O'Connor and Deakin.Doktor Waterhouse 13:10, 22 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

White Australia Policy[edit]

"This was the price of the Labor Party's support for the government." The reason I deleted the sentence is that it implies (depending which way you read it) that either the ALP or Barton didn't want WAP but accepted it against their wishes in return for forming government. Since they both wanted WAP, there was no "price" to either of them. That is why I think the sentence should be deleted. Peter Ballard 07:25, 18 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

A reference has now been added[2] but all that says is that Barton enacted WAP, not that ALP demanded it, nor that Barton didn't want it. Peter Ballard 07:36, 18 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Peer Review/GA nomination[edit]

Comments for Peer Review/GA nom welcome. Timeshift 09:15, 26 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

GA nomination[edit]

It's clear that a lot of work has gone into this article, but the result is rather uneven, in that there is too much about the "Campaign for federation" and not enough about Barton's "Judicial career".

I found that the Campaign for federation section had so much fine detail that it became like a story, with this happening then that, and did not read like an encyclopedia article at all. I suggest that this section be cut back a lot. On the other hand the Judicial career section is very brief, and it would be good to see this expanded, giving coverage to some important cases that Barton dealt with etc. These revisions would help to better balance the article.

I'm putting this article on hold as it is close to GA status. However, the issues noted above must be dealt with before GA status can be awarded. I hope this can be addressed within the seven days allowed by on hold, and wish you all the best with your editing. -- Johnfos 01:19, 30 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for all the information John. I'll leave this one open to the community. Timeshift 08:45, 30 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks Timeshift. Seven days have passed and I have to let you know that your GA nomination has not been successful. I hope the article can be improved through peer review and that you may consider re-submitting it for GA later. regards, Johnfos 06:16, 9 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Family[edit]

How come it doesnt have the death dates of some of Bartons children? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 58.168.66.104 (talk) 05:59, 29 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Recent edits to lead of article[edit]

As the first Prime Minister of Australia, Barton has become something of a national icon, and is remembered for his statement that "For the first time, we have a nation for a continent, and a continent for a nation."

Today, Australians are much less inclined to remember his other well known statement at the time, "I do not think that the doctrine of the equality of man was really ever intended to include racial equality."

The second paragraph is POV/OR especially for the lead so I removed it, but somehow the remover thinks that if the second sentence can't be there, then the first sentence can't be either. Why? It's now a very empty lead and there is nothing wrong with the first sentence. I have no qualms placing the second sentence further down. Timeshift (talk) 22:59, 21 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Image caption[edit]

One of the image captions reads: Sir Edmund, aged 65 in 1904

This doesn't add up, but looking at the image itself, I'm not sure whether the mistake is that it should say 1914 instead of 1904, or if it should say 55 instead of 65. Anyone know which is correct? Anoldtreeok (talk) 10:37, 17 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

According to this the photo was taken in January 1914. He was born on 18 January 1849 so in the photo he is either 64 or 65. I've amended the caption accordingly. Melburnian (talk) 13:27, 17 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Immigration speech[edit]

In case anyone's interested in a 1907 speech attributed to Edmund Barton ("we should insist that if the immigrant who comes here in good faith becomes an Australian and assimilates himself to us..." etc etc) which appears now and again, you can read more about it here. Apparently it is actually a quote from Theodore Roosevelt in 1913, first quoted in the New York Times the day after Roosevelt's death - references to America in the popular internet version have been altered to refer to Australia. It was mentioned in this article but an editor has decided that a quote popularly attributed to Edmund Barton has nothing whatsoever to do with subject of an article about Edmund Barton. I'll not bother to reinstate it because it'll just get eradicated again, but I though this small point of historical interest might be of use to someone. Cnbrb (talk) 14:00, 29 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]

You note that a hoax has been identified that seems to have been perpetrated in single email. Unless the hoax has been widely successful - and I for one hadn't come across it - why should WP bother with it? Wikiain (talk) 22:18, 29 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I just encountered the same hoax on Facebook. So almost nine months later, it is still going around. I don't know if that counts as "widely successful", but it certainly has had a certain degree of success. SJK (talk) 11:15, 29 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

External links modified[edit]

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Numbering of Prime Ministers[edit]

Hello, just wondering if a discussion has already occurred on another talk page about the numbering of Prime Ministers in infoboxes. If not, can we try to reach some kind of consensus here?

I argue that the officeholders need not be numbered. Perhaps the first for historical importance and the current Prime Minsiter for reference, but otherwise the numbering is completely useless. It is common in American political infoboxes to number offices. Although the Australian system draws from the American one, the executive division of Australian government is more similar to the United Kingdom, where offices are not numbered. No other offices in Australian infoboxes are consistently numbered, except for the Prime Minister, Governor-General and Chief Justice. SpaceFox99 (talk) 23:22, 22 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Rather they be numbered, like the prime ministers of 'most' of the other Commonwealth realms are. See prime ministers of Canada, New Zealand, Papua New Guinea, etc. The UK prime ministers are the 'only' ones not numbered, among the Commonwealth realms. GoodDay (talk) 12:45, 24 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The numerical ordering of Australian Prime Ministers from 1901 onwards

seems to be completely wrong.

For example, William Morris 'Billy' Hughes is listed as the 7th Prime

Minister of Australia. Conducting my own research, I have actually

found that he is actually the 11th, not 7th. Other similar mistakes

with other Prime Ministers down the line.

This is what my research showed:-

1st Edmund Barton (Protectionist) Tue 1st Jan 1901 - Thu 24th Sep 1903

2nd Alfred Deakin (Protectionist) Thu 24th Sep 1903 - Wed 27th Apr 1904

3rd John Christian Watson (Labor [ALP]) Wed 27th Apr 1904 - Thu 18th Aug 1904

4th George Houston Reid (Free Trade) Thu 18th Aug 1904 - Wed 5th Jul 1905

5th Alfred Deakin (Protectionist) Wed 5th Jul 1905 - Fri 13th Nov 1908

6th Andrew Fisher (Labor [ALP]) Fri 13th Nov 1908 - Wed 2nd Jun 1909

7th Alfred Deakin (Liberal) Wed 2nd Jun 1909 - Fri 29th Apr 1910

8th Andrew Fisher (Labor [ALP]) Fri 29th Apr 1910 - Tue 24th Jun 1913

9th Joseph Cook (Commonwealth Liberal) Tue 24th Jun 1913 - Thu 17th Sep 1914

10th Andrew Fisher (Labor [ALP]) Thu 17th Sep 1914 - Wed 27th Oct 1915

11th William Morris Hughes (Labor [ALP], 1915 - 16) Wed 27th Oct 1915 - Fri 9th Feb 1923

(National Labor, 1916 - 17)

(Nationalist, 1917 - 1929)

12th Stanley Melbourne Bruce (Nationallist) Fri 9th Feb 1923 - Tue 22nd Oct 1929

13th James Henry Scullin (Labor [ALP]) Tue 22nd Oct 1929 - Wed 6th Jun 1932

14th Joseph Aloysius Lyons (United Australia) Wed 6th Jun 1932 - Fri 7th Apr 1939

15th Earle Page (Country) Fri 7th Apr 1939 - Wed 26th Apr 1939

16th Robert Gordon Menzies (United Australia) Wed 26th Apr 1939 - Fri 29th Aug 1941

17th Arthur William Fadden (Country) Fri 29th Aug 1941 - Tue 7th Oct 1941

18th John Joseph Curtin (Labor [ALP]) Tue 7th Oct 1941 - Thu 5th Jul 1945

19th Francis Michael Forde (Labor [ALP]) Fri 6th Jul 1945 - Fri 13th Jul 1945

20th Joseph Ben Chifley (Labor [ALP]) Fri 13th Jul 1945 - Mon 19th Dec 1949

21st Robert Gordon Menzies (Liberal) Mon 19th Dec 1949 - Wed 26th Jan 1966

22nd Harold Edward Holt (Liberal) Wed 26th Jan 1966 - Tue 19th Dec 1967

23rd John McEwen (Country) Tue 19th Dec 1967 - Wed 10th Jan 1968

24th John Grey Gorton (Liberal) Wed 10th Jan 1968 - Wed 10th Mar 1971

25th William McMahon (Liberal) Wed 10th Mar 1971 - Tue 5th Dec 1972

26th Edward Gough Whitlam (Labor [ALP]) Tue 5th Dec 1972 - Tue 11th Nov 1975

27th John Malcolm Fraser (Liberal) Tue 11th Nov 1975 - Fri 11th Mar 1983

28th Robert (Bob) Hawke (Labor [ALP]) Fri 11th Mar 1983 - Fri 20th Dec 1991

29th Paul John Keating (Labor [ALP]) Fri 20th Dec 1991 - Mon 11th Mar 1996

30th John Winston Howard (Liberal) Mon 11th Mar 1996 - Mon 3rd Dec 2007

31st Kevin Michael Rudd (Labor [ALP]) Mon 3rd Dec 2007 - Thu 24th Jun 2010

32nd Julia Eileen Gillard (Labor [ALP]) Thu 24th Jun 2010 - Thu 27th Jun 2013

33rd Kevin gyortezetic Rudd (Labor [ALP]) Thu 27th Jun 2013 - Wed 18th Sep 2013

34th Anthony (Tony) Abbott (Liberal) Wed 18th Sep 2013 - Tue 15th Sep 2015

35th Malcolm Bligh Turnbull (Liberal) Tue 15th Sep 2015 - Fri 24th Aug 2018

36th Scott John Morrison (Liberal) Fri 24th Aug 2018 - Mon 23rd May 2022

37th Athony Albanese (Labor [ALP]) Mon 23rd May 2022 - present

So, all in all, Australia has had 37 Prime Ministers not 31 as listed on Anthony Albanese's Wiki page.

Any comment?

CoolHipDude CoolHipDude (talk) 16:45, 16 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I would comment that three of those people held the prime ministership for multiple non-consecutive terms, those being: Alfred Deakin (3 times), Andrew Fisher (3 times), and Kevin Rudd (2 times). That's 31 people who have been prime minister, hence the "31 prime ministers".--Canley (talk) 07:11, 17 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

A couple of other comments: the ordinal numbering of Australian PMs (and the counting of people not tenures) is commonly referred to in government and the media (some examples: NAA, SMH, MOAD). No reason a UK convention or consensus should trump what is clearly a widespread convention in Australia. And it's not correct that PM, GG and CJ are the only "numbered" offices in infobox, it is also widespread in articles about state premiers and even a large number of ministerial roles. --Canley (talk) 07:24, 17 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]