Talk:Drala Mountain Center

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February 2024[edit]

To whom it may concern, this page was disorganized, often repetitive, and did not include any sources referencing the actions DMC has taken following the misconduct allegations in 2018. There were also a few un-cited statements that I would categorize as vandalism. I have made quite a few changes, but have done my best to present relevant data in a neutral tone. My apologies for the number of edits, I'm a new Wikipedia editor and made a lot of mistakes that I corrected later. I welcome any discussion about what statements should be made about the controversy within Shambhala to best represent DMC's involvement and subsequent actions. Moshitan (talk) 04:57, 25 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Edit: There were cited sources surrounding DMC's actions in previous versions, but someone removed them. In WP:5P2 Wikipedia is clear that it maintains neutral tone surrounding controversies and presents content verified by reliable secondary sources from all relevant viewpoints. It seems clear to me that removing these sources was to present a particular point of view. The removed content was cited by reliable secondary sources. Please do not remove such content.

Moshitan (talk) 01:49, 29 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I think 5 sources for the statement about the Shambhala controversy is a bit overkill, especially on this particular page, which is specific to Drala Mountain Center and not a history of the entire organizations controversies, and should include information about events pertaining directly to DMC. Shambhala Training is a better page for a full description of the controversy, although there might be a need for a "Shambhala Sexual Misconduct" page, which could detail the event(s) and then be linked to in the controversy section. I chose the articles to remove based on ranking reliability as secondary sources, leaving the NYTimes and Lion's Roar articles and Buddhist Project Sunshine as the primary source. If anyone has reasons for why the articles I removed should be linked there I again welcome a discussion. Moshitan (talk) 02:15, 29 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Incorporated in 2000[edit]

First, the organization which runs this center was incorporated in 2000. That is where the history of this organization starts.

Prior to that Vajradhatu operated the property as Rocky Mountain Dharma Center and then Rocky Mountain Shambhala Center, both of which should be covered in the Vajradhatu article, not here.

This article should start at the founding in 2000, with a link to the history of the former operation in Vajradhatu. Material about history before the formal incorporation of the current entity should be moved.

I will begin working on this. Skyerise (talk) 11:00, 11 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I have completed the separation of material prior to the organization's founding date to Vajradhatu. Skyerise (talk) 11:27, 11 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

(Note: updated to reflect operation was by Vajradhatu rather than SI, which was incorrect.) 12:22, 11 March 2024 (UTC)

Precision in historical account[edit]

There were a lot of issues with historical precision which I have attempted to address. First, neither the previous nor current retreat center were ever operated by Shambhala International. Rather, it was operated by Vajradhatu, first as RMDC, then as RMSC, prior to its separate incorporation.

In 2000, Vajradhatu became Shambhala International and this organization was incorporated separately as Shambhala Mountain Center at the same time. So the timeline is:

1970s: Rocky Mountain Dharma Center, operated by Vajradhatu
1990s: Rocky Mountain Shambhala Center, operated by Vajradhatu
2000s: Shambhala Mountain Center, independent of Shambhala International with some oversight from Sakyong Potrang (not SI)
2020s: Drala Mountain Center, completely independent from Shambhala International

We should follow the sources: the correct name for each period must be used, because no source prior to February 2022 refers to the center as "Drala". I've merged the history all together chronologically. Multiple tiny sections taking the developments out of chronological order are not the way to present the material, and Controversy sections are discouraged. Skyerise (talk) 11:57, 11 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Skyerise, I agree with your last sentence, but I can't easily follow the rest--in part of course because all these name changes, and thanks for clearing that up. But I see that "Rocky Mountain Dharma Center" is discussed in the Walrus article, so why would this not pertain? Drmies (talk) 15:11, 11 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

So, Rocky Mountain Dharma Center was not a separate organization but rather part of Vajradhatu. At the same time Vajradhatu became Shambhala International, Shambhala Mountain center was incorporated as a separate entity, recently renamed Drala Mountain center. Both RMDC and Rocky Mountain Shambhala Center now redirect to Vajradhatu. I'll take a look at Walrus and make sure it uses the corrent name for the period and links to the correct article. Skyerise (talk) 17:42, 11 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Hmm, I don't see any mention in Walrus, nor can I imagine why it would be linked from there. Skyerise (talk) 17:46, 11 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I see that all references to the Walrus article, https://thewalrus.ca/survivors-of-an-international-buddhist-cult-share-their-stories/, have been removed. I'm having trouble finding the exact point where it was removed so it's unclear who made the change, but I think this statement, from a previous version of the page, is highly relevant: "In September 2020, an investigative report detailed a culture of abuse dating back to early days of the Shambhala Buddhist organization" as it documents three separate instances of abuse that took place here, when it was still called Rocky Mountain Dharma Center. It doesn't seem right to scrub this history just because of a name change and corporate reshuffling. Am I missing something? Phlonx (talk) 20:41, 11 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Well, I went ahead and re-added it. If anyone has a serious objection, we can have it out here. Phlonx (talk) 20:54, 11 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Hey Phlonx, I have some thoughts but I'm done editing for the day. I'm fine with what you've added for now. Moshitan (talk) 20:57, 11 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

When searching Drala Mountain Center in the search bar, the dropdown now shows Drala Mountain Center as a "Retreat Center in Boulder Colorado." It seems clearly listed as being in Red Feather Lakes everywhere on the page, I'm not sure where to fix that. Moshitan (talk) 15:57, 11 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I've fixed that. Skyerise (talk) 17:43, 11 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Edit War March 2024[edit]

I reverted the article back to Skyerise's most recent edit, as Anabelle Hidalgo continues to make mass reversions back to their previous version, which now multiple users have agreed were unduly weighted, without discussing on this talk page or their own. I have made requests for discussion with this user, but received no response. I have placed an edit warring warning on their talk page. I will submit a request for dispute resolution on WP:AN/3 when I have the time to put it together. Moshitan (talk) 15:39, 11 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Regarding removing the statement about Chapman University, the link Anabelle Hidalgo is referencing to Lion's Roar links to a 404 not found page on their website. I am unable to find another supporting article, but if a credible source is found I agree it should belong here. Moshitan (talk) 17:17, 11 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I have restored the Chapman University statement with a citation referencing the Wayback machine's copy of the Lion's Roar article. Thank you Phlonx (talk) 18:35, 11 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Good find, thank you. Skyerise Thanks for the revert, I was trying to keep it with the style you had set up, but clearly misunderstood it. Moshitan (talk) 18:37, 11 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Note that a detailed reading of the article cited indicates the bad behavior was racist, not sexual. Skyerise (talk) 18:47, 11 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

In fact, the original news report did reference sexually inappropriate behavior. Curiously, the Lion's Roar article fails to mention it. I have added "sexual" back to the text, and added a citation of the original report. Phlonx (talk) 20:00, 11 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

My guess is that Lion's Roar corrected a mistake in their reporting and that is why they updated the article. I think we should reference the updated article only, as doing otherwise feels like bad journalism to me. Moshitan (talk) 20:05, 11 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Ah, there's a newer version of the article than I was looking at? I just trust the links too much I guess. Skyerise (talk) 20:07, 11 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I think the one you were looking at initially was the updated version Moshitan (talk) 20:07, 11 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

No, the original report came from journalists at Chapman University. It appears that Lion's Roar misrepresented their work. I think the word should stay, because the original report is primarily about inappropriate sexual behavior. The racist song is seconary. Phlonx (talk) 20:07, 11 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Do you have a reference to the original report? Because if not we should use the most recent version. Moshitan (talk) 20:09, 11 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I already did that. It's footnote 13: SPECIAL REPORT. Phlonx (talk) 20:11, 11 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Yup, I just checked and that's the most recent working archive, and there doesn't seem to be a live version. I can't see any reason not to include the original report as well. Skyerise (talk) 20:15, 11 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Good find Phlonx and sounds good to me. Moshitan (talk) 20:16, 11 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Here is the full report in video form by the Chapman University news team, could that also please be included as a source? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NAyO0detH5k Anabelle Hidalgo (talk) 20:24, 11 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, Phlonx has already linked it at 13: SPECIAL REPORT Moshitan (talk) 20:26, 11 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Navigation[edit]

We've got a lineage of teachers, at least three organizations plus Naropa, the training itself, a stupa, and probably some more related articles that I don't know about. I'd suggest someone should create a {{Sidebar}} titled "Shambhala Buddhism" or "Shambhala Training" to make navigation between the articles easy so we don't feel the need to repeat things in each article. Skyerise (talk) 20:19, 11 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Seems like a great idea. I've already eaten into my work time this week far too much though with this pageMoshitan (talk) 20:30, 11 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I may look into it later, spent enough time editing today. Skyerise (talk) 20:32, 11 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for all your work! Moshitan (talk) 20:33, 11 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]