Talk:Disinformation in the Russian invasion of Ukraine

Regarding a section I have added on Ukrainian bots

I recently added a sub-section on how around 90% of bots posting on the invasion are pro-Ukraine. I have used a source from The Print and the official website of the University of Adelaide. RT has also reported on it. Should I add the RT piece as another source (its article is a mix of analysis and biased pro-Russia rhetoric) or leave it? Thanks. RealKnockout (talk) 13:28, 12 September 2022 (UTC)

"and that an overwhelming majority of these bot accounts" - not in source. Manyareasexpert (talk) 18:34, 12 September 2022 (UTC)

When this gets published in a peer reviewed journal we can add it. Volunteer Marek 20:11, 12 September 2022 (UTC)

Joshua Watt: "I am a lead author on this paper and I would like to point out that you have misinterpreted our results. We found that approximately 90% of ALL accounts contributing to the online discussion surrounding the war are pro-Ukrainian, not 90% of the bot accounts." Kleinpecan (talk) 20:25, 12 September 2022 (UTC)

@Kleinpecan Yet in the same thread one of the user has posted the Australian source with ~80% of pro-UC tweets coming from the bot net, reaching 50K tweets per day. [[1]] Pixius talk 12:23, 28 February 2023 (UTC)

https://declassifiedaus.org/2022/11/03/strongmassive-anti-russian-bot-army-exposed-by-australian-researchers-strong/ Pixius talk 12:23, 28 February 2023 (UTC)

I too agree. Based on that, we have consensus do not include this. My very best wishes (talk) 02:50, 18 February 2023 (UTC)

There is not enough to do with Ukrainian propaganda on this article. It almost entirely focuses on Russian propaganda whereas in reality both sides are heavily using propaganda. Especially Ukraine on twitter with bot accounts. Nudrien (talk) 07:03, 23 October 2023 (UTC)

Correct. And ironically enough, that leads to this very article containing strong elements of Ukrainian propaganda. How very typical.. Schutsheer des Vaderlands (talk) 08:02, 9 December 2023 (UTC)

To your OP question: no, you shouldn't add the RT piece to the article to source your claims, unless you can provide corroborating articles from other reliable news sources at the same time, in which case, you might as well just use those. Russia Today is a propaganda vehicle for the Kremlin, and is recognized by consensus at Wikipedia as being full of fabrications and disinformation. That doesn't mean everything they publish is a fabrication, and possibly the piece you want to use is one that is entirely accurate. But if that is so, then lots of other news media will have the same information, and you'll be much better off choosing one of the other ones with a strong reputation for peer review and reliability, and you'll have no problems using one of those. Mathglot (talk) 09:47, 9 December 2023 (UTC)

Page title should be Russian Disinformation in the 2021–2022 Russo-Ukrainian crisis

Spiking propaganda and disinformation levels before an invasion has been proven to be effective multiple times in history. But, given the focus and coverage of mostly Russian disinformation, shouldn't this article be renamed to "Russian Disinformation in the 2021–2022 Russo-Ukrainian crisis" from "Disinformation in the 2021–2022 Russo-Ukrainian crisis"? I was confused as to why some disinformation spreading through western or UA offician channels which was discussed in our own western sphere wasn't included here.

In another note, in some sections it seems really unsubstantiated in some claims, sometimes pointing to sources whose original journalist sources have been retracted, or the infamous I'm of X origin thereby I can't be Y whereas there's actual articles raising concerns for a rise of Y. I'm sure there's guidelines accounting for bias and fallacy arguments for the editors.   eagleal  10:05, 11 October 2022 (UTC)

Generalization of Jewish people in the Allegations of Nazism section

It says "The Jews of Ukraine similarly rejected Putin's propaganda", linking to History of the Jews in Ukraine, but the source for this statement is a Politico article with quotes from interviews with Jewish Ukrainian civilians. Suffice it to say an ethnoreligious group as a whole is *not* capable of accepting or rejecting propaganda, Individuals and organizations are. Language like that does NOT belong on Wikipedia. It would be best to scrap this line and replace it with mentions of the relevant statements by President of the Union of Jewish Religious Organizations of Ukraine, Yaakov Bleich. 169.226.26.112 (talk) 15:15, 12 October 2022 (UTC)

"Kyiv regime" listed at Redirects for discussion

An editor has identified a potential problem with the redirect Kyiv regime and has thus listed it for discussion. This discussion will occur at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2022 October 25#Kyiv regime until a consensus is reached, and readers of this page are welcome to contribute to the discussion. QueenofBithynia (talk) 20:20, 25 October 2022 (UTC)

Proposed name change

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: moved to Disinformation in the 2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine. (non-admin closure) ■ ∃ Madeline ⇔ ∃ Part of me ; 08:06, 2 November 2022 (UTC)

---

Disinformation in the 2021–2022 Russo-Ukrainian crisis → Disinformation regarding the 2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine – As the disinformation is much more related to the 2022 invasion of Ukraine rather than the 2021-2022 Russo-Ukrainian Crisis (which is now recognized as the prelude to the invasion), shouldn’t this article be renamed to something related to the invasion, not the crisis (such as “Disinformation regarding the 2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine”)? RiverMan18 (talk) 02:45, 26 October 2022 (UTC)

• Support, although a still better title would be Disinformation in the 2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine, as there is disinfo regarding many topics related. The euphemism “Ukraine crisis” shouldn’t be used, as it has been applied to many different things since 2014 and before. —Michael Z. 13:24, 27 October 2022 (UTC)
• Support - sounds better, but even better as Disinformation in the 2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine.--3E1I5S8B9RF7 (talk) 15:50, 31 October 2022 (UTC)
• Support for Disinformation in the 2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine. Xcalibur (talk) 09:43, 1 November 2022 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

This page ignores any shred of WP editing standards

Someone had even written "Ukraine doesn't have nazis - Zelensky's mother is Jewish". The level of brain rot here is staggering and the Wikipedia principles have clearly not been adhered to, but who cares if the point is to spread propaganda? Saying Zelensky's mother is Jewish is the equivalent of "I'm not racist, I have a black friend". Meanwhile, here are a list of articles from reliable sources that give a more accurate picture of Ukraine, but as they're pre-2022, you won't be able to list them on here:

[2]Profile: Ukraine's ultra-nationalist Right Sector

[3]Fears grow as Ukraine rightwing militia puts Kiev in its sights

[4]BREAKING BODIES TORTURE AND SUMMARY KILLINGS IN EASTERN UKRAINE

[5]Ukrainian Far-Right Extremists Receive State Funds to Teach "Patriotism" Apeholder (talk) 21:37, 20 January 2023 (UTC)

The above “brain rot” comment doesn’t exactly adhere to Wikipedia principles, either. And the sources are obviously chosen to demonize Ukraine and not to offer a neutral WP:POV and WP:DUEWEIGHT on disinformation during the invasion. If you like Amnesty, just browse through the headlines on their Ukraine news[6] and research[7] pages for an overview.

Interested in fascists in Ukraine? Let’s see what scholarly sources are writing in the last year about ukraine russia war fascism, as indexed by Google Scholar.

When Ukraine’s elected president was a Ukrainian, Russian disinformation insisted he was a secret Jew. Since Ukrainians chose a Jew, it insists he is a secret Nazi. The more things change, eh?  —Michael Z. 19:07, 21 January 2023 (UTC)

Michael You didn't really think that one through did you? You're basically saying "those articles don't put a narrative out there I want, try this narrative instead" and then you have the audacity to talk of a neutral PoV. Why are your articles fine to cite from, but different articles from the same outlets with just with not so much of pro-Ukraine bias, are unacceptable? How are you promoting a neutral PoV? Apeholder (talk) 16:37, 24 January 2023 (UTC)

None of your pre-2022 sources is about this subject. Think it through.  —Michael Z. 17:42, 24 January 2023 (UTC)

@Mzajac But these articles tell about the Nazi ideology in UC and the WP page states that this was a casus belli for RU to attack the UC Pixius talk 12:04, 28 February 2023 (UTC)

Wikipedia is a pro-American, pro-Western source that draws almost exclusively from sources ran and controlled by western oligarchs, this is why the page is such a shitshow. bree Breeboi 13:21, 24 March 2023 (UTC)

This article seems to ignore rules against agenda-setting/pushing a Point Of View. To avoid outlining an anti-Russian agenda, should not the article be reset to give a balanced view? (Updated) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 95.149.166.154 (talk) 13:24, 23 August 2023 (UTC)

Azov

Either claims or rebuttals about Azov are conspicuously absent from the nazi section. Sennalen (talk) 01:53, 21 February 2023 (UTC)

Works cited

The attached article (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Criminal_Court_investigation_in_Ukraine) used as empirical source material, list allegations, NOT evidence. in fact, the evidence (" "), is merely here-say based on few testimonies which are mostly second or third-hand, very limited, if at all, access to areas where levied charges took place and otherwise absolutely NO investigative evidence to not only justify levied charges, but justify why this organization should be treated by readers as a reputable, objective, or an authoritative source. It should be explicitly noted when 501(3)c,d,b's or combination of the sorts are agenda driven TAX-EXEMPT corps and have motives ($) for any lack of scientifical or empirical data driven analysis. NOTE IT 2600:8803:8600:3D00:6E:27D0:CE20:2E73 (talk) 10:51, 2 April 2023 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 15 April 2023

Change "In early 2023, BBC and Logically reported that Russosphere was created by Luc Michel, a Belgian far-right activist" to "In February 2023, a Logically investigation revealed that Russosphere was created by Luc Michel, a Belgian far-right activist" PurpleAsgard (talk) 16:42, 15 April 2023 (UTC)

 Question: why? M.Bitton (talk) 00:54, 16 April 2023 (UTC)

 Not done for now: Remember that extraordinary claims require extraordinary sourcing; there needs to be a lot of evidence from multiple independent reliable sources to make such a matter-of-fact claim. Actualcpscm (talk) 21:53, 17 April 2023 (UTC)

Questionable article

Beyond the serious WP:WIKIVOICE issues in this article, it seems to pass off political narrative as "disinformation". Much of the content of this article talks about Russian "talking points" (as they are known nowadays). Talking points are not disinformation per se. They are simply narrative. This article seems to me a combination of WP:SYNTH and WP:OR build under a WP:NOTHERE premise. Entire thing should be scrapped. Its a good effort in terms of political propaganda but its not encyclopedic. Qayqran (talk) 18:45, 16 April 2023 (UTC)

The only propaganda here is what you attempted to introduce into the article. Reverted. Zaathras (talk) 19:16, 16 April 2023 (UTC)

Most of the propaganda here seems to be much of the article. Then again, would the Ukrainian/US Govts never put out dodgy information to sex up the case against Russia? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 95.149.166.154 (talk) 13:38, 23 August 2023 (UTC)

The opposite of the subject of this article is not what Ukrainian Government does or does not do. It is a fully legitimate undertaking to highlight Russian Government's disinformation efforts as pretext to their full invasion of Ukraine. Goliath74 (talk) 23:33, 11 September 2023 (UTC)

That said, should not people attempt to understand Russia fears? Given what happened in Russia from 1941 to 1945, Putin has reason to fear that German panzers are, yet again, on the Eastern Front. So if NATO really wishes to avoid war, what is to stop it from agreeing to set up a Conflict Free Zone? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 95.149.166.141 (talk) 17:48, 6 December 2023 (UTC)

Snake Island Campaign

This section doesn't describe anything that can reasonably be characterized as "disinformation". If this story does involve disinformation, then it needs to be clarified. Failing that, I propose to delete the section.

MrDemeanour (talk) 10:03, 26 May 2023 (UTC)

Always delete delete delete.... 2A02:C7C:E0AC:3200:FCF6:93AA:2E8:9B2B (talk) 14:21, 3 July 2023 (UTC)

 Done. I deleted the section. HappyWith (talk) 15:45, 26 July 2023 (UTC)

Ukrainian Southern Offensive

"Disinformation" usually means attempts to deceive the public; this section describes the perfectly-normal effort of an armed force ettempting to deceive their adversary about their intentions. If that's disinformation, then every military operation in history has involved a degree of disinformation.

I propose to delete this section.

MrDemeanour (talk) 10:08, 26 May 2023 (UTC)

Nobody objected, so I went ahead and blanked the subsection.

MrDemeanour (talk) 12:30, 4 June 2023 (UTC)

Censorship

None of the three parts of this section describes anything that can be characterised as "disinformation". Rather, the policies described are apparently intended to combat false information delivered by publishers. Censorship is not disinformation. I propose to delete this section in its entirety.

MrDemeanour (talk) 10:15, 26 May 2023 (UTC)

Nobody objected, so I went ahead. MrDemeanour (talk) 12:27, 4 June 2023 (UTC)

It is obvious that the Russian government is punishing the dissemination of any information that contradicts the official narrative in order to support its propaganda and disinformation aimed at Russian citizens. In this case, the connection between disinformation and censorship is quite clear. -- Tobby72 (talk) 19:31, 4 June 2023 (UTC)

Formerly for Azov?

As User:HouseOfChange, requested I would like to discuss the usage of the term "formerly" for Azov. My reasoning for it, is as follows. It is not the job of wikipedia to come to a definite conclusion on the nature of something like Azov. Doing so would fall under own research. As we can seen in the Azov Batallion page, there are differing points of view given that argue that Azov was not deradicalised. Thus, it is inappropriate to include "formerly" here as this is Own Research and there is a lack of consensus. Genabab (talk) 11:47, 28 May 2023 (UTC)

@Genabab: Here is the phrase in its context: While Ukraine, like many countries, has a far-right fringe including the Svoboda party and (formerly) the Azov Battalion...

Rather than removing the word "formerly" (thereby asserting that Azov is currently an example of far-right fringe,) let's meet your concern by removing the contested mention of Azov entirely, leaving only the Svoboday party as an example of Ukraine's far-right fringe: While Ukraine, like many countries, has a far-right fringe such as the Svoboda party.. HouseOfChange (talk) 12:09, 28 May 2023 (UTC)

That sounds like a good compromise. I agree. Genabab (talk) 12:17, 28 May 2023 (UTC)

Hurray good idea, I agree. Elinruby (talk) 17:03, 28 May 2023 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion

The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:

• Михайловка (Сакский район), июнь 2022, 03.jpg

Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 12:10, 2 June 2023 (UTC)

General mobilization

This should probably be added to the section on Russian mobilization: [8]. 93.72.49.123 (talk) 23:27, 6 June 2023 (UTC)

Chinese man pretending to be Russian soldier

I wonder if this should be mentioned in the article. Although the influencer was promoting the Russian cause, he doesn’t seem to be linked to the Russian government, and his actual motive seems to have been financial (he was trying to sell imported Russian goods to his fellow Chinese). Still, it’s technically an example of misinformation, if not disinformation. 2604:2D80:6984:3800:0:0:0:FE1B (talk) 01:02, 27 June 2023 (UTC)

prigozhin

https://amp.theguardian.com/world/2023/jul/01/yevgeny-prigozhin-russian-media-erase-warlord-wagner-moscow Elinruby (talk) 20:41, 1 July 2023 (UTC)

Gross overrepresentation of Russian disinformation, lack of coverage on Ukrainian

In Poland and probably other Central and Eastern European countries Russian disinformation is marginal and comabted by state, having little effect and available mostly for those actively searching for it, while Ukrainian disinfo is widespread on social and traditional media, amplified by local propaganda and having huge influence over public opinion. Article has extremely unequal coverage, ignoring more prevalent Ukrainian disinformation. 77.112.89.237 (talk) 08:21, 24 July 2023 (UTC)

The issue is that Wikipedia goes off what our reliable sources say, which (at least in English) heavily focus on Russian disinformation over that of Ukraine. If you have any reliable sources in any language which cover the issue of Ukrainian disinformation and its spread on social media, feel free to add it to the article or discuss here first if you'd prefer. GnocchiFan (talk) 11:22, 24 July 2023 (UTC)

Russian information war against Ukraine

Isn't this article just covering the same material as Russian information war against Ukraine? Like, it basically only covers Russian disinfo, some of which isn't even during the full-scale invasion. A merge might be a good idea. HappyWith (talk) 15:47, 26 July 2023 (UTC)

Yeah, I agree that there is a lot of overlap. I think merging this article with the Russian information war against Ukraine is a good idea, but willing to be swayed by other editors. GnocchiFan (talk) 15:52, 26 July 2023 (UTC)

@GnocchiFan@HappyWithWhatYouHaveToBeHappyWith I support the suggestion. Per

Overlap: There are two or more pages on related subjects that have a large overlap and might be WP:REDUNDANT. Remember, that Wikipedia is not a dictionary; there does not need to be a separate entry for every concept. For example, "flammable" and "non-flammable" can both be explained in an article on flammability

It 's the second point at WP:MERGEREASON Cinadon36 19:49, 15 September 2023 (UTC)

why is western disinformation and propaganda mostly ignored in this article?

the western propaganda and narrative and disinformation campaign has been very intensive. the institute of the study of war which i often see references to is run by neo-conservatives which is often cited as source for most “reliable” sources according to wikipedia and also i do not understand how ukrainian news sources such as pravda.com.ua can be considered as “reliable”. is wikipedia hijacked by the neo-cons and neo-libs? i don’t understand Bogomoletsilizarov (talk) 15:43, 31 July 2023 (UTC)

The sourcing used in this article represents mainstream opinion. Yes, ISW is considered a reliable source. If you feel there is information to be added around "western" disinformation then please list sources that reflect this. — Czello ^(music) 15:47, 31 July 2023 (UTC)

ISW was founded by the husband of a top US state department official, Victoria Neumann, and should be scrutinized accordingly. 2603:7000:B900:36EA:1CB8:1C63:C946:36 (talk) 03:46, 24 October 2023 (UTC)

You can raise it at WP:RSN if you like but just you some time, the love life of the website's founder isn't considered relevant to the site's reliability. — Czello ^(music) 07:56, 24 October 2023 (UTC)

The wife of a top US state department official has no relevancy to the reliability and credibility to a very large and popular website? I’m sorry, but that’s pure ignorance to believe that she has zero relevancy. She still owns and operates the site, and has been praised numerous times by Western media, which we all are aware of push their own narrative and bias. How can you say she has no affect on the credibility and reliability to a site that she herself owns? None of that makes any logical sense. TheRebelliousFew (talk) 20:13, 17 January 2024 (UTC)

This isn't a valid reason to disregard a source and appears to be largely speculation. If you wish to overturn it as a source the place to discuss that is WP:RSN. — Czello ^(music) 22:49, 17 January 2024 (UTC)

You don’t listen very well, do you? This is not speculation when you can easily find this. This is indeed a valid reason to discredit the sources, because they are left-leaning and are notoriously biased in their reporting. Do you not use common sense or critical thinking? TheRebelliousFew (talk) 15:41, 18 January 2024 (UTC)

It's speculation to imply it affects their reporting, especially if you're saying without proof. So far all you've brought is your own opinion. Also please watch the tone of your comments as you're close to crossing WP:NPA. — Czello ^(music) 16:06, 18 January 2024 (UTC)

Since, along with this article, most media reports are one-sided and lacking in balance, is there any real need to present evidence of Western propaganda and disinformation? For is not this a clear case of people being innocent until proven Russian? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 95.149.166.154 (talk) 12:51, 23 August 2023 (UTC)

Well , I along with many had been hearing about how early last year Russia was going to completely run out of ammo in literally only days [9]. Or western media parroting claims non stop on how Putin is terminally ill and dying.[10] And that in Bakhmut, it is that hopeless for Russia that they have resorted to fighting Ukraine with just shovels.[11] Yet a year later, Bakhmut has fallen to Russia, and Russia still seems to have a lot of ammo, and now media is saying that imagining Russia defeat is becoming magical thinking.[12] So aren't those past and debunked stories (targeting Russian morale) not also unproven disinformation spread in western media? I don't see any of that being mentioned in the article despite it should be noted. Are we not allowed to mention it?49.181.47.40 (talk) 19:04, 4 December 2023 (UTC)

Any registered user is free to add to this article. – Asarlaí ^(talk) 11:04, 14 December 2023 (UTC)

I absolutely agree and may add a separate page on this later regarding Western mainstream misinformation. The Western media has made lots and lots of false claims about Russia and their situation, like the ones you mentioned, yet no one really wants to discuss about it or add it to the page. If we, as Wikipedia, wanna remain unbiased and neutral, we need to also acknowledge the misinformation and false claims made by Western governments or their media. TheRebelliousFew (talk) 18:32, 17 January 2024 (UTC)

Ukraine neonazi problem: myth or fact?

I'm no person enjoying war. But I would like to discuss that article section about neonazism claims. I've done a research on the topic and stumbled upon some Jewish sources claiming that Ukrainians today have deep respect for Stepan Bandera and other Nazi collaborators. Based on the sources that I'm listing below, it seems that Ukrainians really treat these historical figures to be national heroes.

First, Forward published an article listing monuments dedicated to those who sided with the Germans during WW2. The images : https://forward.com/news/462916/nazi-collaborator-monuments-in-ukraine/ You can see, there's a reference to Yaroslav Stetsko, a person who actually hated and wanted to rid the world off Jews. The webpage contains images from Wikimedia Commons as sources.

Even the Ukrainian Wikipedia itself contains articles listing monuments and streets dedicated to Stepan Bandera. One article mentions that there are over 500 such streets only in major cities: 1) https://uk.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%9F%D0%B0%D0%BC%27%D1%8F%D1%82%D0%BD%D0%B8%D0%BA%D0%B8_%D0%A1%D1%82%D0%B5%D0%BF%D0%B0%D0%BD%D0%BE%D0%B2%D1%96_%D0%91%D0%B0%D0%BD%D0%B4%D0%B5%D1%80%D1%96 2) https://uk.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%92%D1%83%D0%BB%D0%B8%D1%86%D1%8F_%D0%A1%D1%82%D0%B5%D0%BF%D0%B0%D0%BD%D0%B0_%D0%91%D0%B0%D0%BD%D0%B4%D0%B5%D1%80%D0%B8

According to this article by the Times of Israel, a good number of Ukrainians demonstrated in honor of Stepan Bandera. How can events like that be ignored? https://www.timesofisrael.com/hundreds-of-ukrainian-nationalists-march-in-in-honor-of-nazi-collaborator/

This NBC News article written by a Jewish American of Ukrainian descent has ample sources that Ukrainians have German collaborators in high regard. The author of the article still chooses to side with Ukraine, as he made it clear in the end: https://www.nbcnews.com/think/opinion/ukraine-has-nazi-problem-vladimir-putin-s-denazification-claim-war-ncna1290946

As Wikipedia is meant to be objective, I think it's fair you consider these sources as chances for us to try to convince Ukrainians to reexamine their stance on pro-Nazi historical figures. Hope this tragic event happening ends soon with a peace treaty sufficing all sides in some way.

Melaneas (talk) 23:20, 23 November 2023 (UTC)

Agreed. I will most likely go in and edit that section, adding the sources you listed. There is a lot of evidence suggesting the idea that there are Neo-Nazis in Ukraine, as evident by the Steppan Bandera statue and streets honoring individuals who had ties to former Nazi Germany. If there are Ukrainians who honor these people, it’s not that far fetched of an idea that there is quite possibly Neo-Nazis working within the government, too, which would actually legitimize the Russian claims of Ukraine having Neo-Nazis. Although, I’m not sure if you can find any articles discussing this topic. TheRebelliousFew (talk) 18:38, 17 January 2024 (UTC)

No WP:SOAPBOX please ManyAreasExpert (talk) 20:18, 17 January 2024 (UTC)

I’ll happily share my thoughts on this with a fellow user. If you don’t like it, then you can ignore it. TheRebelliousFew (talk) 20:52, 17 January 2024 (UTC)

Disputing edit per BRD

I undid 2 recent edits by Roman Kubanskiy for two closely-related reasons:

1. Undercounting war casualties on one's own side is common propaganda/disinformation, and has been practiced by both Russia and Ukraine.[13][14] Misleadingly, this edit presents Ukrainian undercounting of casualties without the context of its similar use by Russia and its very common use in multiple conflicts, as if it were something done only by Ukraine.
2. With this edit, Wikivoice was used to describe disinformation in the war as a fully-balanced both-sides-doing-it claim, citing as the source this article which makes no such representation of equal disinformation by both sides--instead SwissInfo points a finger at Russia-sponsored doctored videos, false reports that Zelensky had fled, and censorship of opposing viewpoints, while saying of Ukraine only that it is believed to misstate casualty figures.

One can find ways to say that Ukraine has also used disinformation (as the article already does) without using wikivoice to "cite" the inaccurate claim that equally bad behavior comes from both sides. HouseOfChange (talk) 18:02, 10 December 2023 (UTC)

It is clear that the "equally" behavior doesn't come from "both sides" (international media and scientific articles talk more about Russian disinformation). Regarding the military losses, I believe that it is necessary to write as disinformation, which comes from both Russia and Ukraine, with appropriate reliable sources. Regarding "both sides", this wording is not used for the purpose of "false balance", but with the aim that not only Russia is engaged in this. Roman Kubanskiy (talk) 18:07, 10 December 2023 (UTC)

@Roman Kubanskiy: Concerning the misrepresentation of casualties by both sides, the article section "Other disinformation" is a better place for it than the "Ukrainian themes" section. I agree that the lead needs improvement, but it needs to be done without claiming any false balance. I just made an effort here, by moving the existing mention of Ukrainian disinformation up to the article's second sentence, and adding a bit at the end specifying what disinformation from Ukraine has looked like in RS. I hope you or others will improve it. HouseOfChange (talk) 20:15, 10 December 2023 (UTC)

"A 2022 Counter Extremism Project report concluded that the Azov Brigade can no longer be defined as neo-Nazi.[56][57]"

the Counter Extremism Project report cited here is predominantly about the nature of the participation of foreign extremists in the Russo-Ukrainian War, and it mentions the political character of Azov only in passing. in particular, this claim seems to be made only by source 56 writing about the report, rather than the report itself; searching for "neo-Nazi" in the text of the report only turns up a claim that Belarussian fighters in Ukraine are not neo-Nazi, and a handful of anecdotes about western neo-Nazis attempting (and mostly failing) to organize volunteers to travel to Ukraine. the closest the Counter Extremism Project seems to get to making the claim in this article is (pages 16-17, emphasis mine):

The original commander of the Azov Battalion, Andriy Biletsky, was elected to the Ukrainian parliament in late 2014. His successful election campaign in a “first past the post” district was based on his and Azov’s battlefield successes. In addition to Biletsky, five other volunteer battalion commanders were elected. In late 2016, Biletsky founded the [National Corps] which is led by Azov veterans. The party regularly refers to the now renamed Azov Regiment as “its own,” despite the fact that the party does not exercise operational control over the Regiment. How the precise relationship between the party and the Regiment is structured is a complex issue. Some observers stress that the party and the Regiment are still connected whereas others maintain that the Regiment had undergone a “depoliticization.” However, it is important to stress that the Azov Regiment no longer functions as a volunteer battalion and is not a “far-right militia” but a unit of the National Guard of Ukraine. Some of the Regiment’s members undoubtedly still espouse far-right views. However, these are counterbalanced by a significant number of post-2014 non-nationalist recruits.

Unfortunately, the Azov Regiment continues to be confused with the Azov Movement in general and the NC in particular. Indeed, the political positions of the NC are radical far right. However, the fact that the party is itself derived from a volunteer paramilitary formation and maintains a militant posture does not mean that this structure is similar to that of Hezbollah (i.e., socio-political and military) or that the NC’s transnational connections are an indication that it attempts to morph into a far-right al-Qaeda, aiming to train likeminded foreign recruits for the Regiment and then sending them abroad on terrorist missions.

which seems to be more about the fact that the Azov Battalion:

• is no longer an irregular unit but a directly controlled part of the Ukrainian military;
• does not have designs on operating outside the borders of Ukraine;

and in the preceding sentence it describes the question of whether the unit still functions as the paramilitary wing of the NC -- which it itself describes as radical far-right -- as complex and unsettled. 2601:602:8100:624C:844E:CD86:53EA:FF16 (talk) 18:29, 22 December 2023 (UTC)

Body doubles

Putin has several body doubles [15]. One can find many sources with various claims and counterclaims about it, which defines this subject as a controversy, not disinformation. My very best wishes (talk) 23:16, 11 January 2024 (UTC)

The text I removed might be used on other page(s), not sure where exactly:

There were numerous speculations that Russian president Vladimir Putin's has several body doubles.

In March 2023, Anton Gerashchenko, an adviser to Ukraine's interior minister, and Andriy Yusov, a spokesman for the Ukrainian Defense Ministry's GUR press service, claimed that there were attempts to find evidence of Russian presidential doubles. They published three photographs of Putin's chin and questioned whether they showed the same person. They also alleged that Putin didn't visit Mariupol and sent a double there, citing a different chin in the photos as evidence. However, fact-checking organizations such as Reuters, Snopes, and Italian openFactChecking found that the first image offered for comparison was actually published in 2020, not 2023. They also noted that the second photo was taken in Mariupol, not Sevastopol. As a result, Snopes concluded that the claims were false.

In October 2023, Ukrainian intelligence chief Kyrylo Budanov has said that Putin used three body doubles who had plastic surgery to look like him. He noted: "We know specifically about three people that keep appearing, but how many there are, we don't know". He also said: "Each person's ear picture is unique. It cannot be repeated".

No. Most reliable sources claim that this is a conspiracy theory. Such nonsense is spread either by the Ukrainian media and officials, or by British tabloids, which are considered as not reliable sources. Roman Kubanskiy (talk) 12:13, 12 January 2024 (UTC)

The allegation or conspiracy theory predates the war and is not unique to its context, e.g. [16]. It does not belong to this article. -- Mindaur (talk) 12:36, 12 January 2024 (UTC)

I'm aware, I edited a whole article about it on the Russian Wikipedia. Initially, it appeared in the Russian space as meme and was promoted by a Russian opposition journalist, but subsequently, from 2022, it was picked up by the Ukrainian side and began to be actively used by Ukrainian officials who deliberately pushed all sorts of nonsense like "strange" chin in the photos which Snopes exposed. Roman Kubanskiy (talk) 12:44, 12 January 2024 (UTC)

Yes, indeed. It is not about the war and definitely predates the war. My very best wishes (talk) 15:32, 12 January 2024 (UTC)

Nope, the theory was actively popularized already DURING the war. Roman Kubanskiy (talk) 19:23, 12 January 2024 (UTC)

People like him having body doubles is nothing unusual ("Stalin had at least a couple; Panamanian strongman Manual Noriega apparently had no fewer than four. North Korean dictator Kim Jong-un was once photographed chatting with two of his identically-dressed doubles." [17]). A person who recently came to the city of Derbent did look and behave very differently from Putin [18]. One can consider this a "speculation", something unproven, even rumors (which may or may not be true), but definitely not an outright disinformation. What he died was indeed apparently a disinformation, but it came from Russia. The story about the doubles is notable [19] and perhaps deserves a separate page, just as on ruwiki. My very best wishes (talk) 22:39, 12 January 2024 (UTC)

"A person who recently came to the city of Derbent did look and behave very differently from Putin" - This statement is marginal and most likely false, because it is not reliably substantiated in any way, but is only based on guesses and thoughts. But still, I'm not talking about how old this theory is, but about who is using it now during the war (basically it's Ukrainian side). False claims about Putin's death firstly was forced by Western media. And only recently, the Russian conspiracy Telegram channel "General SVR" began to actively force it; its words, by the way, were picked up by some dubious Western tabloids. Roman Kubanskiy (talk) 09:23, 13 January 2024 (UTC)

You are conflating three unrelated claims:

Claim that Putin is dead (this is WP:FRINGE, it comes from Valery Solovei)

Claim that he is sick (we do not really know, but there are reliably published claims and counterclaims)

Claim that he has body doubles (we do not really know, but there are reliably published claims and counterclaims)

Does any of these claims directly related to the Russian invasion of Ukraine and do they qualify as an outright disinformation? Maybe only #1. My very best wishes (talk) 21:15, 13 January 2024 (UTC)

No, it's all comprehensively interconnected, and it's documented in reliable sources. It's significant that in the case of his alleged double bodies and the disease, you say that "everything is not so clear" (a reference to a popular meme in Russia and Ukraine that tells that "all sides lie [equally]"), referring to the allegedly "reliably" published statements of some pseudo-experts who invent some kind of justification for promoting conspiracy theories. The problem is that such excuses are not properly exposed by other media. But the fact remains that reliable evidence has not yet been found.

Moreover, you did not mention the previously mentioned Ukrainian media and officials who deliberately promoted conspiracy claims about Putin's double bodies. Their goals are unknown, but I suppose they wanted to make fun of him in some black way. It is strange why, even in a situation where they are wrong, some editors try to silence it in some way. Roman Kubanskiy (talk) 11:23, 16 January 2024 (UTC)

P. S. It's done. Roman Kubanskiy (talk) 17:47, 17 January 2024 (UTC)

I see. Of course there are body doubles, but Valeri Solovei has transformed this story to a conspiracy theory [20], obviously on purpose. My very best wishes (talk) 15:58, 19 January 2024 (UTC)

United News telethon — should it be included or excluded?

Should this section be included in the article? It reads more like patriotic news, and less like a disinformation campaign with alernate reality events.--3E1I5S8B9RF7 (talk) 16:17, 8 February 2024 (UTC)

Depends on what the sources are and what they say. ManyAreasExpert (talk) 16:20, 8 February 2024 (UTC)

Feel free to read them. I already expressed my opinion that it doesn't refer to disinformation, but rather patriotic news.--3E1I5S8B9RF7 (talk) 15:10, 9 February 2024 (UTC)

One needs a consensus to include. Sources clearly describe this as propaganda (biased information), not disinformation (intentionally false information). Hence, this content does not belong to this page. Some other pages - yes, maybe. My very best wishes (talk) 14:22, 28 February 2024 (UTC)

Both sides moment

@Manyareasexpert, no reason for deletion. Reliable sources, such as NYT, Deutsche Welle, NBC, VoA listed here. There is a consensus among them that propaganda and disinformation comes obviously from both/all sides. But this doesn't mean that it's equally, this is what it says that most of the news is devoted to the Russian side, and two large paragraphs have been written about it. So I don't see a reason to cancel my edit. Roman Kubanskiy (talk) 12:33, 8 March 2024 (UTC)

The fact that disinformation comes from both sides doesn't mean the effort is equal or has the same degree of systematic effort at the state level. There is a significant difference between the Russian ambassador to the United Nations spreading blatant, widely refuted, lies and some provincial Ukrainian politician or official making dubious or deliberately misleading claims. That should be reflected per WP:DUE. It also doesn't mean that every single case of disinformation should be listed here, as per WP:INDISCRIMINATE. If we are going to include all delusions made by such figures like Dmitry Medvedev and other RU officials, then this article would be never ending. It should meet the WP:N criteria. -- Mindaur (talk) 12:55, 8 March 2024 (UTC)

disinformation comes from both sides doesn't mean the effort is equal or has the same degree of systematic effort at the state level - That's exactly what I wrote about in the original message. I don't deny that Russia is much more covered in this regard. Earlier I also added that "Much of the news about military propaganda during Russia's invasion of Ukraine focused on Russian disinformation." But I don't understand why "both sides" should be rejected. It doesn't equalize the sides, since the second and third paragraphs describe in detail Russian actions, much more than Ukraine. Roman Kubanskiy (talk) 13:03, 8 March 2024 (UTC)

Speaking about the Ukrainian side, there was some military disinformation related to their first and possibly the latest offensives. The rest of it is presenting the events in a more favorable light than they really are; the "ghost of Kyiv" was one of them. Some sources define some of this as propaganda (biased information) rather than disinformation (providing an intentionally false information). the situation is very different on the Russian side, where MoD provides entirely invented numbers, for example. Hence, "the both sides" is incorrect summary, and I agree with removal. Also, remember that inclusion any new materials/changes require WP:CONSENSUS. There is no one. My very best wishes (talk) 15:38, 8 March 2024 (UTC)

It's also worth noting that military deception is a distinct form of disinformation. Allies also used deception, e.g. see Operation Fortitude. Ultimately, any major military campaign generally involves deception. -- Mindaur (talk) 16:09, 8 March 2024 (UTC)

No, Ukraine is spreading disinformation and propaganda to a much greater extent than you think. The Ministry of Defense of Ukraine does not "too", but "even as", provides fake casualites.

Policy of the Ukrainian government has been characterized by researchers as a “propaganda campaign”[358] and a “misinformation campaign". The New York Times notes that “Few military analysts, on the other hand, believe the Ukrainian military’s optimistic daily account of Russian casualties running into the hundreds that is nonetheless reported widely in Ukrainian media.”

A content analysis of the 15 most popular Ukrainian websites made by Ukrainian scientists showed that none of the national media reported either statistics or individual cases of mass deaths of Ukrainian military personnel in battle; instead, regional media, without observing state censorship, report the death of specific participants, indicating in most cases their personal information. Ukrainian scientists note that the state has to report losses using the media so as not to cause mass panic, depression or other negative psychological consequences. Thus, government authorities or their representatives use indirect or inaccurate reports of military losses, which require additional clarification. Ukraine has repeatedly cited figures that are “overtly speculative in nature”. At the same time, the losses of the Russian side are regularly reported in reports and communiqués with exact figures. In July 2022, representatives of the Ukrainian Ministry of Defense explained the hushing up of losses by the need to disorient the Russians.

The "Ghost of Kyiv", "murdered" "Guards of Snake Island", Russian "orcs"-"rashists" everywhere stealing toilets, glorification of the Patron and the creation of the cult of "bayraktarism", the excitement from the Ukrainian counteroffensive. Truha and UNIAN (the last is one of the major Ukrainian news agencies) are Ukrainian dubious Telegram channel, that doesn't comply with journalistic standards and incites interethnic hatred and enmity. On YouTube, many Ukrainian news publishers release clickable headlines in the "blogger" style, predicting the collapse of Russia. Some Ukrainian sources also produce fakes about Russian mobilization (for example, fake orders), which are covered in this article. They say on TV about Putin's double bodies and that Putin is very ill. They write "Russia" and "Putin" with a small letter. And, of course, United News (telethon).

Tbh, tired of watching cleaning stuff about Ukrainian side, I mean, some editors trying to clean up the material of the Ukrainian side only because "this is propaganda, not disinformation, and this too". Roman Kubanskiy (talk) 16:23, 8 March 2024 (UTC)

@Roman Kubanskiy: You sound surprised that Ukraine, its society and media do not have the neutral (let alone positive) view of Russia -- a country which started an unprovoked war against them, in an attempt to conquer a sovereign state, committed war crimes and atrocities, and has been doing so for the last two years. Well.. what did you expect?

As for the article: I don't quite see a coherent argument from you. Your concern (in the context of disinformation) about the "glorification of the Patron [the dog]" is particularly interesting and rather unusual one. Care to elaborate? :)

-- Mindaur (talk) 23:20, 8 March 2024 (UTC)

Good points. For example, dog Patron does exist. Detection dogs are great. And yes, Russian soldiers steal a lot of hardware. The guys from Tuva are very poor. It is no secret that Ukrainians hate Russians right now and call them this (or at least that is what I heard on YouTube records of actual fighting). None of that is disinformation. My very best wishes (talk) 23:52, 8 March 2024 (UTC)

I understand your solidarity with Ukraine, but it doesn't mean that it is necessary to suppress objective criticism of it and, thus, whitewash it.

I will allow myself to quote a participant from the Russian Wikipedia Грустный кофеин ("Sad Caffeine"), who has discussed Patron's topic. As for the Patron, in Ukrainian society he had a big splash of attention at the highest state level, but then he became a meme and his image took on a life of its own. Famous songs have appeared about him. According to this: "On the rise of patriotism, mass culture began to exploit the same images that became symbols of a new stage of the war - for example, the Turkish drone "Bayraktar" or the Patron mine-sweeping dog. Havryshenko says that these images have become banal due to excessive and often unjustified repetition. It is characteristic that this banality turns into kitsch." Thus, the dog Patron became a character of the specific pop culture of Ukraine during the Great War, which its critics call "bayraktarshchyna".

The Ukrainian authorities even wanted to limit it: "According to my observations, this kind of "bairaktarshchina" is usually played by small enterprises that deal with marketing communication independently. They use these symbols mindlessly. Someone does it to increase sales, someone to emphasize their own patriotism, and in the first and second cases, it is moral looting, if these words are not supported by actions. At the same time, "Almost a quarter of those surveyed (23%) noted that they are annoyed by the use of national symbols, disregard of military realities or the inappropriateness of advertising, speculation or PR on the topic of war. Respondents name the pizza "Bayraktar" or "Glory to Ukraine". At the same time, the majority (57%) have a positive attitude to military images, such as Patron the dog, "Russian ship" or "Bayraktar". Almost three-quarters (72%) believe that the use of a patriotic theme is appropriate in times of war. 71% noted that they have a positive attitude to humor in brand advertising, especially memes on military and non-military topics, Russian military casualties and "bavovna".

And in this article you can find the following: "In our society, the Patron dog, Javelins, Bayraktars were cultivated, with which clothes, candies, jewelry are made, Bayraktar news shows, songs, etc. are created. And this, unfortunately, has a negative impact more than a positive one. As a result of this, the stereotyping of war occurs, it gives rise to the well-known "bairaktarshchyna" and belittles the merits of the military. Viktor Rozovyi, a soldier of the 3rd OShBr, made a sharp statement about Patron the Dog in September: "My dream is for Patron the dog to die and with him the entire Bayraktar region." The military officer is outraged that a service dog has been made a national hero, although he is no different from all other service dogs. What's more, Patron the dog received an award from President Volodymyr Zelensky - the medal "For devoted service". But for some reason it is not indicated anywhere that this is the merit of the State Emergency Service and the people who work there. Rozovoy's brother in the same video says that Patron has a much higher reward for his service than he, a man who is always on the front lines. At most, the award was sent to him by mail, while Patron was awarded by the President himself. In this way, injustice can be traced in the truly heroic deeds and recognition of the military: the sergeant of the 3rd OShBr was awarded such a medal as Patron the dog, only when he went against the tank and single-handedly destroyed it, taking the Russians prisoner." Roman Kubanskiy (talk) 12:22, 9 March 2024 (UTC)

@Roman Kubanskiy: You are sharing some personal as well as public sources with some random discussions. This may as well be about Larry (cat), Maru (cat) or [insert a random celebrity here]. In your message I almost feel a resentment about some dog's popularity, which is quite amusing. However, I still don't see a coherent argument.

What's your point? -- Mindaur (talk) 16:04, 16 March 2024 (UTC)

No resentment, just the facts. If Ukrainian sources describe it in this way, are they also "resentment" by him? I'm familiar with the Ukrainian internal society, since I'm neighour and from a region where the vast majority were Ukrainians a century ago.

But the problem of the Patron and the cult of "bayraktarischina", which misinforms the Ukrainian people, exists. And I think that much less objective attention is paid to Ukrainian propaganda and disinformation. Since the Western media are focused on combating Russia's information influence, they are not up to thorough coverage of criticism of the Ukrainian side. As a result, we have a false picture that Ukrainian cases were allegedly recorded only a few times, like the same "Ghost of Kyiv" and Snake Island (as if there was nothing else besides propaganda in the early days of invasion). And the obvious cases of a "United Mrathon", dehumanization of Russians and the Russian military, propaganda Ukrainian Telegram channels, the activities of Ukrainian scam call centers (which operated before invasion and were aimed not only at the Russian, but also at the European audience), conspiracy theories about Putin's body doubles, fakes about Russian mobilization, and so on. Note that I don't write about cases like Bucha, because I write about objective things. And even what can be considered such is constantly edited by some members here: "this is A, not B", "fakes" are replaced by "rumors", and "disinformation" by "misinformation". Roman Kubanskiy (talk) 17:40, 16 March 2024 (UTC)

The included text says: both sides waged an information war,[1] used propaganda,[2][3][4] actively spread misleading claims,[5] misinformation[6][7] and disinformation. But propaganda and misinformation, for example do not belong to this page, even though the difference between misinformation and disinformation is blurred. My very best wishes (talk) 15:42, 8 March 2024 (UTC)

In fact, I would consider renaming the article "Information war during Russian invasion of Ukraine", so it would cover all aspects of information warfare: misinformation, disinformation and propaganda.

@My very best wishes, as for the Unified Telephon: Anton Filatov, a former film critic and later a soldier of the Armed Forces of Ukraine, believes that disinformation about Russia is the hidden purpose of this telethon. He expressed indignation at promises to recapture key facilities in a matter of weeks, excess of modern weapons, generalizations about Russians as "hand-assed jerks" and their commanders as "morons"; stories in the news are generally perceived as "cloying sedative for peaceful [people]." [21] It was already in the article. Roman Kubanskiy (talk) 16:28, 8 March 2024 (UTC)

Information war would be a distinct/different subject, and we already have such page, Russian information war against Ukraine. Who is Anton Filatov? Yes, he criticizes this "Telephon" saying it is ridiculous and failed to disinform anyone if it was the purpose [irony]. My very best wishes (talk) 20:53, 8 March 2024 (UTC)

I am not sure if this is really supported by sources. Which source says that it "has become a key tool of information warfare"? A quote? My very best wishes (talk) 21:12, 8 March 2024 (UTC)

Per NYT: The show, Telemarathon United News, has been a major tool of Ukraine’s information war. Roman Kubanskiy (talk) 14:42, 9 March 2024 (UTC)

• This and other sources say about various exaggerations (the Patron dog, Javelins, Bayraktars, and many others) which helped to rise the spirits of Ukrainian people during the war. Such narrative was promoted by a number of commenters, such as Arestovich. This has been described as a propaganda, at least in some sources (including this NYT article, if one actually reads it starting from the title), rather than an outright disinformation. The situation is very different on the Russian side, where a massive brainwashing campaign with monstrous lies was conducted by the state to justify the aggression to their own population and the world. This is reflected in the body of the page. Therefore, making the "both sides" narrative in the lead would be wrong. My very best wishes (talk) 15:44, 9 March 2024 (UTC)

I still don't understand why you think this is wrong. No one claims that they do it equally. Roman Kubanskiy (talk) 16:06, 9 March 2024 (UTC)

No, as framed in your edit [22], it does imply they did everything equally, even though you do not use word "equally". My very best wishes (talk) 16:18, 9 March 2024 (UTC)

Because that needs a reliable source. Many reliable sources for "both sides" were here. Roman Kubanskiy (talk) 17:02, 9 March 2024 (UTC)

The lead should properly summarize content in the body of the page. That version does not. My very best wishes (talk) 17:52, 9 March 2024 (UTC)

It's already summarizing. Significant advantage towards the Russian side. Roman Kubanskiy (talk) 08:11, 10 March 2024 (UTC)

Not in your version. In fact, 1st para in your version contradicts to content in the 2nd, 3rd and 4th para of the lead. Hence, it was correctly reverted by two users.My very best wishes (talk) 14:10, 10 March 2024 (UTC)

The claim that both sides are not doing that stuff is obviously untrue. Roman Kubanskiy (talk) 14:17, 10 March 2024 (UTC)

This is not a proper summary of content on the page and even of the remainder of the lead. My very best wishes (talk) 15:01, 10 March 2024 (UTC)

Reliable sources don't directly write "to varying degrees", they only generalize as "both sides". Of course, we can try to come to a consensus. Roman Kubanskiy (talk) 19:05, 10 March 2024 (UTC)

The phrase "both sides", as applied to the first sentence in Special:Diff/1212549636, is a clear violation of the WP:FALSEBALANCE policy in the context of this article. Additionally, adding the reverted phrase back into the first sentence 22 minutes later against consensus, as was done in Special:Diff/1212552026, is a violation the policy against edit warring. — Newslinger talk 18:52, 10 March 2024 (UTC)

Again, we can work on the wording. Roman Kubanskiy (talk) 19:06, 10 March 2024 (UTC)

It looks like you previously attempted to change the first sentence to substantially similar language in Special:Diff/1189217990 on 10 December 2023, which was reverted and disputed at "Disputing edit per BRD". This makes your recent set of edits a violation of this article's WP:1RR page restriction. There is consensus against using language in the first paragraph that would imply a false balance, and any proposed changes to the wording would need to respect the WP:FALSEBALANCE policy. — Newslinger talk 19:39, 10 March 2024 (UTC)

Clarification: I am referring to the entirety of the WP:BALANCE policy, and the part that applies to false balance in the context of the edits under discussion is WP:PROPORTION. — Newslinger talk 20:34, 10 March 2024 (UTC)

Chemical weapons

@My very best wishes, even per your source it claims: Russia has denied allegations of using chemical weapons in Ukraine and has accused Ukrainian forces of their use, which Kyiv denies. Neither side has produced evidence and Reuters has not been able to verify any use by either side. No independent verification. Roman Kubanskiy (talk) 06:43, 15 March 2024 (UTC)

Did Russian forces use chemical weapons? Institute for the Study of War say "yes", and the Russian military command actually acknowledged that they did [23],[24]. Royal United Services Institute says the same: [25]. This is either a fact or a controversy, not disinformation. Hence, it does not belong to this page. My very best wishes (talk) 16:39, 15 March 2024 (UTC)

According to some commenters, the use of "riot" chemical compounds at war is forbidden by UN conventions because, unlike civilians, soldiers sitting in trenches have nowhere to run, just leave the trench and be killed. My very best wishes (talk) 16:47, 15 March 2024 (UTC)

It's all interesting, but it's not that Russia potentially didn't use chemical weapons, but that US intelligence agencies reported this in April 2022 without providing evidence to manipulate the audience. Roman Kubanskiy (talk) 16:53, 15 March 2024 (UTC)

Even if the "intel was not rock solid" in April 2022 (as the cited reference say), there is a plenty of published evidence now. This is not misinformation. My very best wishes (talk) 17:09, 15 March 2024 (UTC)

I don't know what it is. If they didn't intentionally promote these statements, then it is "misinformation", if intentionally, then "disinformation". It would great if article was called "Information war during Russian invasion of Ukraine", because the article says that "It’s one of a string of examples of the Biden administration’s breaking with recent precedent by deploying declassified intelligence as part of an information war against Russia". Roman Kubanskiy (talk) 17:29, 15 March 2024 (UTC)

I think that at the Ukrainian side this would be best described as propaganda, the page you just created, rather than an "information war". On the USA side, a new feature is openly publishing their intelligence data, with the purpose to influence other sides (which they apparently failed). They did it just before the war, warning that the war will start (incredibly, Zelensky and USA itself did almost nothing to prepare), and later, when they had some info, but not so solid, as these sources say. My very best wishes (talk) 21:20, 15 March 2024 (UTC)

Speaking on WMD, this page is missing a description of Nuclear threats during the Russian invasion of Ukraine, a disinformation/nuclear blackmail strategy that was applied by Putin administration with enormous success. Otherwise, that war could end up as another Gulf War with Russia beaten like Iraq at the Ukrainian territory. The threats were bluff, but such is the power of fear. My very best wishes (talk) 21:36, 15 March 2024 (UTC)

This cannot be attributed to Ukrainian propaganda, since it doesn't originate from Ukraine and its citizens, it is called PRO-Ukrainian propaganda when statements are thrown in that are favorable to the Ukrainian side. And no, this directly relates to the information war, it is written in the above source. In any case, it should be in the article about the information war. The only question is whether this should be considered disinformation, since this is not directly stated in the sources, just an "unproven statement." And if we write about the infowar, like in Ru Wiki, then you can find a lot of interesting things about the United States there [26] [27], [28]. Roman Kubanskiy (talk) 11:32, 16 March 2024 (UTC)

Two points:

1. We suppose to make a summary per multiple sources on the subject, and according the the most recent sources, the use of chemical weapons by Russian forces is essentially a fact (see above), not disinformation.
2. A part of the "information war" is actually telling the truth (per your linked sources above). Therefore, this is a different subject. My very best wishes (talk) 16:11, 16 March 2024 (UTC)

NATO aggression section is a mess.

I'm gonna start off by saying I'm not some apologist for Russia or Putin but the "Allegations of NATO aggression" section is mostly an argumentative essay that has nothing to do with disinformation. Keep in mind, disinformation means "false information deliberately spread to deceive people." Whereas misinformation refers to "incorrect or misleading information." In other words, not all incorrect information is disinformation, you actually have to show some level of intent and knowledge the claim is deceitful. Almost everything in this category would probably be misinformation and not disinformation as irrational and wrong claims are not automatically disinformation.

The first paragraph about Ukraine stationing NATO troops in their territory would obviously count as disinformation because it seems that Russia knew that this wasn't happening. The next section is about Russia claiming Ukraine is a proxy of NATO and the West, while I'd agree Russia is dead wrong on this, calling Ukraine a proxy is not disinformation. Even the person that is quoted in this section doesn't call it disinformation and he merely says the claim has misleading implications. For this to be considered disinformation, Russia would have to know that the claim is wrong and yet still purposefully spread that to deceive people. Even if Russia knew this claim was wrong, none of the sources cited in this paragraph call these claims "disinformation" other than the citation from NATO themselves. I don't have anything against NATO but of course they're gonna say "Ukraine is a proxy."

The next paragraph about how NATO never actually promised to not expand East, while it may be true this promise was never actually made, Russia being irrational and wrong about this is not disinformation. Again the only source that implies its disinformation is NATO themselves. Russia being wrong on this does not automatically count as disinformation.

The next paragraph talks about Finland joining NATO in response to Russia's invasion. Not really sure how this is relevant to "Russia Disinformation."

The next paragraph quotes an expert on the subject who said the real reason Russia oppose NATO expansion is because they want to bully their neighbors. Russia having malevolent intentions is not disinformation and the source quoted never calls Russia's narrative disinformation.

Finally, the last paragraph is fine because it claims Russia is lying about this supposed NATO aggression. That belongs in the article because it implies Russia is actually spreading disinformation. This is what disinformation actually means.

I know this is gonna stir some debate but essentially almost everything in this "Allegations of NATO aggression" section aside from the first and last paragraph can be deleted or heavily changed in my opinion. JasonOhioHistory (talk) 16:34, 31 March 2024 (UTC)

I find your logic flawed. Several points:

• "Ukraine is a proxy of NATO": can you demonstrate that most WP:RS consider this a proxy war? There are a few reasons why is it RU disinformation: 1) RU claims deny Ukraine's sovereignty; 2) how can they claim it's a proxy war, if they initiate it in the first place?; 3) it's contradictory to the RU strategic war objectives which demonstrate that it was supposed to be a war of conquest (but went horribly wrong, hence the new narratives).
• Regarding the NATO "expansion to the east": there was not a single treaty or signed document giving such promise and RU could not have been "unaware" of that; moreover, the view that some European states cannot join military alliances denies their sovereign right; in fact, the right to collective self-defense is included in the Charter of the United Nations. It's absurd to suggest that RU diplomats are not aware of the international law.
• Regarding Finland: it might not be directly related, but it illustrates the contradiction (or rather plain hypocrisy) from RU: why Finland (with its 1340 km border with RU) joining NATO was apparently not a problem, while the hypothetical Ukraine's membership is a big deal?

-- Mindaur (talk) 18:26, 31 March 2024 (UTC)