Talk:Derry/Archive 1

Name compromise

Note to editors: the agreed compromise for the Derry/Londonderry name dispute is that the city page shall be titled Derry and the county page shall be titled County Londonderry.

Derry/Londonderry

Is it just me or does all this constant renaming of the two Londonderry/Derry articles from one name to another strike anyone else as a little childish?

Clearly we need a compromise everyone can live with. I suggest we call the county article "Londonderry" and the city article "Derry". Or vice versa if anyone has a strong reason to prefer it the other way.

The explanation at the start of each article that there are two names should of course be kept.

No-one is going to win a renaming war and it makes the encyclopedia look pretty unproffessional. -Ikari (3 Mar, 2004).

I would certainly go for county article "Londonderry" and the city article "Derry" if there is to be a compromise. The county has only been "Londonderry" officially, while the town/city has been "Derry" originally, "Londonderry" in its city charter, and "Derry" in its district council name so 2-1 to "Derry". It doesn't matter much, but stability would be sensible. --Henrygb 17:58, 4 Mar 2004 (UTC)

That would make sense. The way I set it up was to have the articles at 'Derry' and have the first word in the actual text to be 'Londonderry', which struck me as a typical Northern Ireland compromise - that way both sides could claim primacy. ;) However, this then resulted in someone moving both articles to 'Londonderry' without a change in the wording, then someone copy-and-paste moving it to 'Derry' and making it clear in both articles that Derry had primacy. Morwen 18:03, Mar 4, 2004 (UTC)

Doire

I'm of Irish republican descent and live in northeast England. "Londonderry", as a coal mine owning family and as a place, are anathema to me. Nevertheless when on wikipedia NPOV means I expect to use "Londonderry" when referring to the County or City in Northern Ireland. The city's local government has changed its name to "Derry City Council" but cannot (sadly (my POV)) change the name of the area. garryq 09:28, 13 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Given that "Derry" is not the official name, it should not be used in the article title. "Londonderry" is NPOV, "Derry" is not. -- Emsworth 17:34, 3 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Uber pedantry but isn't the area administered by the district council bigger than the traditional city? Timrollpickering 18:52, 3 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Yes, you are correct. But the Council determines its own name, not the name of the region it governs. In any event, the article appears to concern the city, rather than the district. -- Emsworth

A general point of confusion - a lot of articles try to cover both the traditional area and the current unit of local government on the same page. But here the boxes certainly support this being about the district. Maybe we should copy the practice of Canterbury, Kent (Canterbury itself) and City of Canterbury for the local government area - how about Derry (district) to provide a page on the district in the same format as the other 25, and another for Stroke City itself? Timrollpickering 21:58, 3 Aug 2004 (UTC)

If the name of the district is indeed Derry, then by all means I would be open to having "Derry (district)" and "Londonderry." -- Emsworth 22:12, 3 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Incidentally, to offer my opinion on the above "compromise": whilst the efforts to reach a consensus are laudable, we cannot arbitrarily decide an unofficial name is to be used. Londonderry is in the United Kingdom; therefore, we should go by the name used by the British government. The Republic of Ireland may purport to determine the city's name, but doing so would be similar to the UK deciding that County Offaly should be known as King's County. -- Emsworth 21:08, 3 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Er... um... no it wouldn't. 70+% of the population of Offaly don't want to rejoin the UK... I suggest you look at the advice on British vs. American English before you dismiss that view out of hand.

Er...um...I suggest you wind you neck in, the wishes of the population have nothing to do with the facts in this case. Wikipedia should supply people with the facts or pack its bags and vacate the internet. This discussion is entirely out of hand now... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.42.109.210 (talk) 21:17, 3 April 2009 (UTC)

The City/district split is an interesting name - except that the official name of the local government district is Derry City Council. Try disambiguating that one... Gerry Lynch 09:45, 4 Aug 2004 (UTC)

What the people of Londonderry want to do is irrelevant. The fact is that the city of Londonderry falls within the United Kingdom, and it is that nation—not the Republic of Ireland—that may determine the name. Furthermore, this question has nothing to do with differences between British and American English. -- Emsworth 13:55, 4 Aug 2004 (UTC)

What the people of Derry call their city is entirely relevant (note Derry is the peferred form of around 70% of the City's inhabitants - the position of the Republic of Ireland is irrelevant). I note for example that the article on Kashgar is entitled Kashgar (as it is called by its local inhabitants), not Kashi (as the government in Beijing calls it) even though the Chinese name is written alongside it on the first line. The article on

The Wikipedia manual of style says that: Cultural clashes over grammar, spelling and capitalisation/capitalization are a common experience on Wikipedia. Remember that millions of people may have been taught to use a different form of English than yours, including different spellings, grammatical constructions or capitalisation. For the English Wikipedia, there is no preference among the major national varieties of English (American, British, Canadian, and others). However, there is a certain etiquette generally accepted on Wikipedia

and among these are: Articles which focus on a topic specific to a particular English-speaking country should generally aim to conform to the spelling of that country (for instance the British "Labour Party"). A reference to "the American labour movement" (with a U) or to "Anglicization" (with a Z) may be jarring. However, a reference to "the American labour movement" would be okay on New Labour. Believe me, ig you're taught that Derry is the correcy spelling, Londonderry is jarring (and no doubt vice-versa).

and possibly pertinently If an article is predominantly written in one type of English, aim to conform to that type rather than provoking conflict by changing to another. (Sometimes, this can happen quite innocently, so please don't be too quick to make accusations!).

In any case, to make quite a major change on what is a sensitive subject without at least seeking a degree of discussion and consent on the relevant talk page is bad form Emsworth. Wikipedia depends on consensus. If we make controversial edits without it, the long-term consequence of that is that we just spend all day reverting one anothers' edits. You've been around here long enough to know that. Gerry Lynch 16:53, 4 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Accepting that each form may be jarring and offensive to those who use the other, one must now consider the question of neutral point of view. Using "Derry," perhaps, implicitly endorses the nationalist point of view. On the other hand, "Londonderry" is the name contained in the Royal Charter and is the official name. I do not suggest that official names be used always (as is the case with, for example, the article Calcutta), but here, where there is a dispute over the name, official status should lend some weight to one title. -- Emsworth 17:03, 4 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Of course - but rememer these are equally political choices. Calcutta is perceived by many in India is a colonialist term (and interestingly the authors of Mumbai/Bombay and Chennai/Madras have used the Maharathi and Tamil names for those cities), Kolkata by others as the worst sort of politically correct gesture politics. Kashgar might be viewed as a term of Uighur nationalism; Kashi of Chinese assimilationism. This is where NPOV runs up against the brick wall of ethnic suspicion, I'm afraid. For example, saying that Londonderry is the name on the Royal Charter is hardly likely to convince people of its neutrality, at least not among the local majorty.

The fact is that any Irish placename used in an English wikipedia article is merelya corruption of the real Gaelic name of the place, in this case An Doire. Similarly if one were refering to places such as Inishcrone (formerly 'Enniscrone' in Co. Sligo) or An Daingean (formerly Dingle)in these cases the name of the local authority decides the name. The problem seems to arise with the fact that both Londonderry and Derry are use as placenames by the various governing bodies for both the city, its airport and the county. In such as case, Derry/Londonderry should be used as it is the most reasonable way of settling the argument. Also, although the city is traditionally or statutarily called such as name does not mean that it is used in its equivalent wikipedia article; an example being the article on Los angeles (the traditional official name for the city is El Pueblo de Nuestra Señora la Reina de los Ángeles de Porciúncula, which is mentioned in a sub-text). THerefore, I think that both titles are euqally valid, and since Derry is more commonly used, it should at the very least get a co-title position with Londonderry. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 143.239.70.15 (talk • contribs) 12:51, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

Personally I'm not that fussed - I wish this was all I had to worry about. Had the article already been at Londonderry I probably wouldn't have bothered but I didn't think it was quite cricket to move it without checking. Gerry Lynch 17:15, 4 Aug 2004 (UTC)

I certainly apologise for not having checked, but I moved the page on the basis of Mr Quantrill's comments above. He made his post in April, and recieved no contradictory reply. -- Emsworth 17:26, 4 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Would Derry/Londonderry or Londonderry/Derry be a workable answer? The article itself points to Derry being the more accepted colloquial term, so I'd go with the former. Wikipedia generally encourages the most used term over strict legal correctness, which in my mind renders the point about the Charter invalid as an umpire on this one. Timrollpickering 17:31, 4 Aug 2004 (UTC)

I don't know of many people who use "Derry/Londonderry," so I don't think it would be an appropriate title. -- Emsworth 18:52, 4 Aug 2004 (UTC)

This article should be reverted to "Derry" (the city) not because of officaldom and posturing but because it was previously decided that it should be this way (as at the top), as a compromise in which several people took part - to reiterate what someone said at the time about renaming "it makes the encyclopedia look pretty unproffessional". "Londonderry" is the accepted name of the county, this is what it should be. Djegan 20:21, 14 Aug 2004 (UTC)

The previous situation was a compromise. Having both the city and county articles entitled "Londonderry" is not. And yes, the compromise does need to take into consideration the views of those in the Republic also - it is a matter of some great importance to many. zoney | talk 20:30, 14 Aug 2004 (UTC)

To name articles a certain way just to make people happy is ridiculous. Official polls seem to indicate, however, that common usage trumps official status. Consequently, I would not oppose a reversion on the grounds that Derry is the more commonly used phrase. But, in general, I do not support changing names just to please a few people. -- Emsworth 20:31, 14 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Derry has of course been at the top of the news today because of the floods. The BBC refered to the city as Derry throughout. I hope this data point is useful. Pcb21| Pete 23:14, 17 Aug 2004 (UTC)

You'll note usage in the article varies between using the two terms. This is the usual practice on BBC NI from what I've seen. zoney | talk 00:12, 18 Aug 2004 (UTC)

It should be noted that someone a few years back won a court case to get a parking ticket killed because it had "Londonderry" down as the city name, and the UK courts system ruled it didn't exist. I can probably dig up the article about it, I think it was after ireland.com started archiving. I think the fact that the UK courts system acknowledges the city is Derry and the county is Londonderry should set the precedent for whats done here

So now the Crown Prosecution Service is ruling on the facts - what a ludicrous comment... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.42.109.210 (talk) 21:21, 3 April 2009 (UTC)

This is probably because the local authority is responsible for parking tickets and isn't named Londonderry City Council, but Derry City Council. It'd be as invalid as receiving a parking ticket in Limerick city with Limerick County Council as the issuing authority. But, then again, I'm merely hypothesising, I don't know for sure what the above situation was, or if it did happen. zoney ███ talk 13:16, 24 Aug 2004 (UTC)

On an unrelated point Derry Airport is officially called "City of Derry Airport". Djegan 16:51, 24 Aug 2004 (UTC)

So I moved it. But it is worth noting that its code is LDY and that its homepage http://www.cityofderryairport.com/ says it is located seven miles northeast of Northern Ireland's second largest city - the historic walled city of Londonderry. So they know a compromise when they want one. --Henrygb 02:15, 14 Oct 2004 (UTC)

You're probably right that they emphasized it as a compromise, but just as a historical aside, their usage is accurate. The "historic walled city" is a very small part of the actual city. It's the part that was built by settlers from London. 24.194.227.174 21:49, 14 May 2005 (UTC)

I must say I'm disappointed to see that Londonderry's page is titled 'Derry'. A compromise would be fine if there were a genuine question over the validity of Londonderry's name, but there isn't, despite what the majority of its inhabitants might prefer. It all smells more than faintly of denial, frankly jamesgibbon 12:20, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)

How did Nationalist gain control of City Council then?--Play Brian Moore 00:51, 1 October 2005 (UTC)

that was assuredly not a consequence of the city's name. jamesgibbon 22:14, 27 November 2005 (UTC)

By being elected by the population,l obviously. The name of the city is Derry in the eyes of the majority of its inhabitants, which its council makeup clearly shows, and in the eyes of the council itself. Its the name the Wikipedia is going to use, so you can be as dissapointed as you want, its not going to change anything. --Kiand 22:24, 27 November 2005 (UTC)

Here in the Republic all signposts pointing to it refer to "Derry" and that is what we call it. We just cannot use the name "Londonderry" because the term "London" being added to the old "Derry/Doire" name just feels too colonial - regardless of what the constitutional position of NI might be. Many Unionists in the North also call it Derry....except when the cameras are around of course. Even so, wikipedia is for everyone so leave it as Derry/Londonderry I suppose. And roll on the referendum! Peter O'Connell

And there's even the Apprentice Boys of Derry (sic) of which Ian Paisley is a member! Derry is the accepted, historic, cross-community name for the city. The L word is only used by British bureaucrats and colonialists, Unionists trying to score points, and those who know nothing about the place. 213.94.246.55 09:33, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

The name 'Derry' was given to the city by the London traders, an anglicized version of the then village Irish name 'Doire' or 'Daire'. The Apprentice Boys of Derry and First Derry Presbyterian Church use the name of 'Derry' instead of 'Londonderry' due to the fact they where set up before the City adopted the name 'Londonderry' under the Royal Charter in the early 1700's. Thought presencently I see no resonse why the full irish version of 'Londonderry' of 'Londaindhoire' can not be aspect along with 'Doire', if people can aspect Derry/Londonderry why then is Doire/Londaindhoire not also given the same respect. The 'L' word as you mention was adopted by the council and the citizens of the city at that time, many of whom's descendent still life within the city. The name is nothing to colonialism as Ireland was never fully given colonial status, rather was allowed to keep it own Irish Parliament, and large self-government, until 1801. Even after 1801, Dublin was given more attention than Edinburgh or Cardiff. Ireland was not the same as Scotland and Wales, as they where directly control by westminister before and after 1801. Even today Nortern Ireland was the first of the three to recieve home rule from 1921 to 1972, and again from 1998 to 2005, and 2007 onwards, similar to the system of devolution for Scotland and Wales. Northern Ireland has more MLA's than Wales has MA's and Northern Ireland has just over have the population size that Wales does. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.157.22.121 (talk) 01:49, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

"The city" elsewhere in Wikipedia

The original compromise was to use Derry for the page title and County Londonderry for the county page title - it didn't cover the various terms in the article. I don't think anyone disagrees that officially before the walled city was built it was clearly Derry, then it was renamed Londonderry and still is in the city charter, but once Northern Ireland was divided into districts the local authority decided to call itself Derry City Council; local people understand both even if they use one or the other. It does look to me as if there is a trend towards some editors are pushing towards Derry excessively in the article and elsewhere, including in Template:IrishCities. Let's try to avoid a Gdansk/Danzig position where one side tries to obliterate any mention of the other's preferred name even for historical events. --Henrygb 01:34, 14 Oct 2004 (UTC)

As a side note Henrygb, Northern Ireland has been in existance since 1921 and Londonderry's district council has only been officially called Derry City Council since 1984. However its official Royal Charter status can only be changed by the monarch so the city is still officially called Londonderry. As Londonderry resides in the UK and its official name is Londonderry, the article should be called Londonderry. Derry City Council can retain its name on its page as thats the councils official name - not the city's. Neutrality wise how can you object to the official spelling of the city? Mabuska 23:51, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

Both terms should be used equally for this article.

For other articles (and I believe this is the main issue), it's up to the context. Most articles mentioning Derry, it has to be said, will be discussing the Republic or all of Ireland. So I think there is indeed probably a trend towards more use of "Derry" than "Londonderry". I don't think we can do anything about this. Perhaps a compromise would be to ONLY use Londonderry for clearly Northern Ireland topics?

zoney ♣ talk 08:55, 14 Oct 2004 (UTC)

I have renamed the city "Derry" in the Template:IrishCities for consistancy - its not a matter of been pushy - the template is intended to be prominant and should use the accepted term - otherwise it is only a matter of time before it is reverted again - ultimately, as well, why cause anymore confusion? - i find the term "Londonderry" for the county both acceptable and historically preferred - lets not get to the point where we must slavishly use both terms to satisfy all sides - keep wiki professional Djegan 19:58, 14 Oct 2004 (UTC)

But the list in Template:IrishCities has Newry as a city because it received a city charter as Newry in 2002, even though it was and is in the Newry and Mourne District Council area. Not very confusing and quite professional. Template:Northern_Ireland has Derry because Derry City Council is the local authority name, in the same way as it has Newry and Mourne; Template:IrishCities should have Londonderry because that the city's name in its charter, in the same way as it has Newry. --Henrygb 00:12, 15 Oct 2004 (UTC)

The town/city of Newry has never been anything but Newry, official or otherwise. "Newry and Mourne" is a district council, some might argue equivalent to a "county", but it has never been a town or city name.

In the case of Derry, it is different. There is Derry (or Londonderry) the city, County Derry or Londonderry, and the Londonderry district council area. Three distinct entities, of which Derry is acceptable for the first two (though we have the article at County Londonderry for the second item).

As regards Template:IrishCities, I can see that being an area of disagreement. As the Template:CountiesofIreland box uses Londonderry, I think it is fair enough that the city box uses Derry (by analogy to the article titles).

zoney ♣ talk 09:25, 15 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Actually the Derry City district council area, which includes the City of Londonderry.

Ultimately I have no problem weither "Derry" or "Londonderry" are used, only consistancy should be the deciding factor - the name of the article should be used in prominant areas insofair as is possible - certainly the form [[Derry|Londonderry]] should not be used - decide on and keep one title, apply it consistantly in [[Template:IrishCities]], [[Category:Cities in Ireland]] and other important lists - similarily recommend the term "County Londonderry", whilst this term has no legal status currently it has a historical value Djegan 19:36, 15 Oct 2004 (UTC)

The compromise was in fact for both Derry and Londonderry to be used in the article, and that the title would be Derry. The alternative would be a district page called Derry or Derry City and a city page called Londonderry - I think a single article is better than what has happened at Lichfield and Lichfield (district). There are plenty of links to County Derry, and maybe others to [[County Londonderry|County Derry]]; no doubt whoever wrote those articles thought it would be clearer to do that. But I still think that the city's name should be Londonderry in a list of Irish or UK cities. --Henrygb 22:20, 15 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Fair enough that we are trying to distinguish between article usage and title - but still in the interest of simplicity, continuity, and professionalism it seams a good idea to accept one term for the city and whilst not insisting that this be used in every instance certainly do not use redirects uneccessarily - such as [[Derry|Londonderry]] - irrespective of what is decided here and now it is innevitable that this question will be reopened within 2-3 months by someone else - as to city and distict status maybe two articless are whats needed, but this is not what this discussion is primarily about - it is about the "City of Londonderry". Djegan 12:22, 16 Oct 2004 (UTC)

No, people did not standardise on "Derry" because that is the district name. People standardised on Derry as the city name too. There is no reason to consider splitting the page, as I would say that both would have to be Derry still (Derry the city, and Derry the district). I disagree with Djegan above though, I believe there are plenty of places where using [[Derry|Londonderry]] is perfectly warranted (Northern Ireland articles for example). However, I suggest that the city remains "Derry" in the city list box, as we already have "Londonderry" in the county list box. zoney ♣ talk 12:59, 16 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Dispute revisited

I`m of Irish descent, and I certainly don`t call the city by the name of "Londonderry" in conversation... for one, it just takes too long. All the same, the city and county of Londonderry are part of the UK, and according to the United Kingdom government the name of these two places are "Londonderry" - there is no debate here. Maybe before the changes to Articles 2 and 3 we could debate the idea under the notion that these cities are part of Ireland and that the Irish naming stands. But from now on, unless the city applies to have the city`s name changed officially... it is Londonderry. --Ce garcon 05:11, 18 Nov 2004 (UTC)

No, even officially speaking, it's not that simple - please read the earlier comments, and the page itself. The administrative district is "Derry City", which includes the "City of Londonderry". Meanwhile the city council is now "Derry City Council". Also the fact that Derry is probably the most common term for the city does count - regardless of the official royal title. We have discussed all these issues previously, with the end result of keeping the city at "Derry", but the traditional county at "County Londonderry" – which fits the reasoning above, and also happens to be a reasonable compromise. The actual article uses both terms throughout, and the two forms are both used elsewhere in Wikipedia as appropriate. zoney ♣ talk 12:05, 18 Nov 2004 (UTC)

These issues have been agreed previous - in summary using the correct or official name in wikipedia is not absolutely neccessary - very often their may be reason to use a more common, but incorrect form and the usual consensus is that this can only be overridden is where is it likely to cause offence - something which is quite unlikely. Djegan 09:46, 21 Mar 2005 (UTC)

City motto

Anyone know what this is? Googling is no help.

And yes, that is the city crest. Grim indeed.

zoney ♣ talk 00:36, 21 Mar 2005 (UTC)

It all in an image [1]! Djegan 09:11, 21 Mar 2005 (UTC)

As far as local knowledge goes, the fort was Greencastle Fort in Donegal - just across the border and the skeleton was a DeBurca who was starved to death in the Fort. However during the grim days of Gerrymander in Derry people used to say that the skeleton was 'a Catholic waiting on the Council housing list'.... Derry humour eh? Bear in mind these were days of maybe 20 sleeping in a room in the Bogside with TB rife...SeanMack 17:51, 23 July 2005 (UTC)

Recent developments, name

It has been reported [2]] that Derry City Council are inquirying into the legal status of the city name. Djegan 00:44, 1 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I assume that was not an April Fool's joke, but the link leads to a blank page. Personally, I think splitting up this page has been a mistake - it now carries less information than numberous US township articles. --Henrygb 15:36, 6 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Actually it was several days before that date that I came across the story, I will try to verify it in coming days and weeks. I agree with you on splitting this page, it was a severe backward step without doubt. Djegan 16:14, 6 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Yep backward step, agreed... SeanMack 16:18, 6 Apr 2005 (UTC)

As an aside, I saw a note in the Sunday Times that the city council has taken the Department of the Environment to court over the city's name, so perhaps not an April Fool's? Alastairward 21:20, 16 April 2006 (UTC)

Compromise

Some proposals (IMHO unsatisfactory) from compromise have been proposed here, but since both names are used (one offically and one by a majority of its citizens and the local authority whose district includes the city) why not call the article Derry/Londonderry to have no precendence (other than alphabetically) or even (London)Derry? Redirects from Derry and Londonderry can be made and there would be no controversy/naming POV in the article. Dainamo 16:16, 12 July 2005 (UTC)

The naming of articles is not a point of view issue, rather the relevant proceedure in this case, is naming conventions (common names).
Djegan 17:52, 12 July 2005 (UTC)

Could somebody explain to me why the people of Doire/Derry cannot just vote to change the name the coloniser put on their place? It is absolutely ridiculous that outsiders can determine the name of their place. It is time for the natives to wrest control of how they are represented from these British and their record-breaking egos.

• This squabble is fiercest among the natives, dear boy. Outsiders and former colonisers are not particularly bothered what the place calls itself. -- RHaworth 10:24, 2005 July 20 (UTC)

IMHO it is a question of identity. All too often the problems in NI are viewed as a problem of religion. The two religion groupings closely mirror the two identities but it is not quite a 100% match. Catholics (in general) view themselves as Irish - in this context they are happy enough to accept the anglicised version of the Irish name Doire to Derry, but Londonderry is generally a step too far. Whereas the faction loyal to the Queen prefers to reflect their British identity and attitudes to the Union in the name 'Londonderry' (mostly protestant). If you think this naming issue is a problem have a look at the parades issue... Two competing and mutually exclusive identities battling for their voice to be heard. To reflect on the point made by RHaworth, many times, the ex-colonisers like to look on with part-disdain part-confusion wondering what to do with these two squabbling 'children' without really accepting the fact that plantation is the direct cause of the problem. Plantation was a very succesful political tool to divide and conquer the 'troublesome' North, however as is apparent, the inhabitants of Northern Ireland still live through the pain that this has caused for over 300 years and counting. When hot potatoes like the naming of 'stroke city' and loyalist parades are no longer an issue, there will be no need for third parties, paramilitaries and armies in Northern Ireland. At this point in time 'the end game' has not occurred. Until it does if one side gets a small win the other sees it as a big loss. Until the identity problem is resolved this will always be the case. Some have hoped that this will go away if those in NI could see themselves as Europeans - neither exclusively British nor Irish, but I fear that day is a long way off.... As I said it's just an opinion.... SeanMack 10:54, 20 July 2005 (UTC)

At the risk of getting off the point, I'd like to point out that the 'identity' issue is a symptom of the problems in the north, not it's cause. Too often I've been asked by interested foreigners "Why would religion cause such violence?". I think it's best to view the problems there as a result of the political transition which the UK as a whole went through in at the turn of the 19th-20th centuries. Remember that until then, all over the UK, only people owning property could vote. Universal enfranchment did not come to Northern Ireland until the 1970's. Both poor protestants and poor catholics were equally excluded, and indeed the 1960's civil rights protests were a united front of poor northern Irelanders. However, the powers that be in the north had a tool which was unavailable to British leaders. They were able to exploit the ancient social fault-line that ran through NI society from the days of the plantations, and skillfully used it to divide the civil rights movement. By the late 1960's the artificially created 'identity' issue had split the civil rights movement completely, and layed the foundation for the troubles. Seabhcán 11:31, 20 July 2005 (UTC)

I agree Seabhcán and I don't think it's off point. One only has to look at how Paisley has skillfully played this game to see how and dangerously it can be used for political gain. However I don't know that I would categorically state it was a symptom and not a cause. If I can stray a little? An abused person becomes a heroin addict and gets into crime. Is the heroin addiction a cause of their criminalty or a symptom of their abuse. Probably the moral is that with NI there are no simple black and white analogies and answers without looking back in history to see why we are where we are today. However the danger then becomes an identification with one side over the other in a situation that is most easily described as a tribal problem. The problem with NPOV and an encyclopedia is that it ignores the fact that with every divided issue there are two equally valid histories. The challenge for historians is to tease out the truth behind the headlines and view the present within the various contexts that have been forces in shaping the world as it is today. Maybe this is way off the point, but on the streets on Northern Ireland, for me, it is predominantly the working classes who are currently defining the politcal headlines, where you may as well substitute Celtic and Rangers for the political parties. Nowadays we have the DUP and Sinn Fein becoming more powerful. People are becoming more extreme and divided. Identity to me is *one* of the causes of divisions in the North and whilst we have a 'them and us' mentality there will never be any movement forward no matter what the politicians in Eire, Britain or the USA wish (never mind the middle classes in NI...). Once again just my opinion, not sure how relevant it will be to people looking in? SeanMack 15:36, 20 July 2005 (UTC) ...Let's not mention 'Danny Boy' versus 'Londonderry Air'... ;o) SeanMack 15:52, 20 July 2005 (UTC)

That would be Danny Boy (written by an Englishman) and Londonderry Air (written by an unknown Irish person) --Henrygb 22:52, 20 July 2005 (UTC)

I made the point in jest as there is a fairly complex history and I have been in company where one person has insisted it is Danny Boy and another insisted it was the Londonderry Air in a vain attempt at claiming ownership 'for their own side'.... SeanMack 11:42, 22 July 2005 (UTC)

Name dispute

I have attempted to put this article at Londonderry/Derry but someone put #REDIRECT Derry on it. Can an administrator please do this?

It was proposed below that Derry be renamed and moved to Londonderry/Derry -195.188.51.5 11:32, 22 July 2005 (UTC)

Score(Keep:22|Move:2)

• Will we find some people will want Londonderry/Derry but others will insist on Derry/Londonderry? -- SeanMack 11:42, 22 July 2005 (UTC)

• I should not have to explain this but ... I did the redirect because the page at Londonderry/Derry was a copy-and-paste of Derry. This is strictly forbidden in Wiki. The copy and paste operation would have destroyed an history of over 100 edits which have been applied to this article. I do not see any consensus for a move on this page. If the consensus is for a name change, an Admin must be called in to delete Londonderry/Derry and move the article on to that title.

My personal vote is keep the article at "Derry". -- RHaworth 14:16, 22 July 2005 (UTC)

• keep as Derry because that is what the City Council says [3] --ClemMcGann 14:21, 22 July 2005 (UTC)

• Keep, If we spent as much time contributing to the article as we did arguing about its name, it would be the best on wikipedia. Perhaps the solution is to have two parallel articles, Derry and Londonderry, edited by seperate people. Then, someday when we can agree and after hell has frozen over, the two articles, like the two halves of the city, can be merged. Seabhcán 14:37, 22 July 2005 (UTC)

How about The city formally/currently known as Derry/Londonderry or The City known to some as Derry, known to others as Londonderry, yet to most, unknown. Seabhcán 00:26, 23 July 2005 (UTC)

• Do you mean formally or formerly? -- 213.123.195.207 00:43, 23 July 2005 (UTC)

• Oops, -formeraly. I like Jonto's suggestion of 'derry. Seabhcán 21:17, 23 July 2005 (UTC)

• Keep, I laughed with the hell freezing over bit though. I did think for a second that the 2 pages idea was a goer but then I thought about what would happen. We would have one page of murals in the bogside and another page of Apprentice boys and sieges..... What would people link to? Only link famous Catholics to the Derry page? I think the pre-agreed compromise of Derry for the City and Londonderry for the county is the most workable. However this revert issue will be difficult to resolve. Even if a compromise is agreed now, new people are always coming online. Perhaps a disclaimer at the beginning of each article stating why wiki has chosen the name would help people realise that this is now old ground in wiki and we would be better spending our efforts adding value to the article as Seabhcán stated already. Perhaps the relevant pages could start by outlining what compromises have already been reached within wiki. Maybe one of those nice html coloured boxes? If people revert after that they are the sort that will vandalise anyway... SeanMack 17:39, 22 July 2005 (UTC)

Someone has been through this before I reckon... [4] the title of the page is <title>Employment Agency - Derry / Londonderry Northern Ireland</title>

• Keep, The official name is not a absolute requirement when deciding on naming, as I have said previously (above) the requirement is for the most common name and Derry is the most common name. Djegan 18:24, 22 July 2005 (UTC)

• Change, it is widely known by each of these names, by Derry here, by Londonderry in England and by both in the city itself.Notjim 20:46, 22 July 2005 (UTC)

• keep It is not known in England by Londonderry. It is known by both names. Internationally it is mainly known as Derry. Derry as the most widely recognised name internationally should be used. FearÉIREANN\^(caint) 21:40, 22 July 2005 (UTC)

• Change Having the name "Derry" as the article's name implies a POV that this is the official name - the official name with royal status is "Londonderry", and the name voted by councillors is "Derry". The change removes all implications of POV, and will prevent future edit wars. What parts of the world have you been visiting to make such a bold statement that "Internationally it is mainly known as Derry"? - I would highly dispute this. On the overwhelming majority of international maps it is known as "Londonderry". I know from experience that in as far away as Japan it is known as "Londonderry"Jonto 02:53, 23 July 2005 (UTC)

the official name with royal status is "Londonderry" Actually Buckingham Palace has made clear that the Queen is not entering the debate and that the name of the city is a matter for the local council. And yes it is known internationally as Derry. That is a statement of fact. Only a small minority of people internationally call it Londonderry. (It reminds me of a unionist friend of mine who explained in detail how the name of the city is "Londonderry" and then went on all night talking about "Derry". He was mortified when I pointed out to him that even he wasn't using the name he insisted belonged to the place!) FearÉIREANN\^(caint) 04:01, 23 July 2005 (UTC)

Yes I knew about that issue with the Queen not wanting to get involved, but I am not sure as to your claim that it was said that it "is a matter for the local council" - a source would be good. Perhaps "royal" was an unfortunate word to use, but in terms of the country "Londonderry" is official. I didn't say it wasn't ever known internationally by Derry. Your claim that "Only a small minority of people internationally call it Londonderry" is certainly extremely bold, and I would like to know what you are basing this on - perhaps recent trip to Boston - I don't know?? Do a google image search for maps of Northern Ireland, and I think you'll find a very different outcome.

You also misunderstand the main unionist position - most unionists don't oppose the term "Derry" at all, and use it simply because it is shorter with less syllables (actually meaning "'derry"). What unionists oppose is what they see as the petty nationalist determination to remove the word "London" from the title at all costs, and the complete refusal to use "Londonderry". The term "Derry" is also contained in the lyrics to The Sash.

Jonto 04:34, 23 July 2005 (UTC)

Actually, I don't think that the outcome for this one matters too much given the "compromise". However, apart from preventing edit wars, I think that "Londonderry/Derry" is much more clear as to where we are referring to - I mean, where else in the world is there a "Londonderry/Derry" apart from in Northern Ireland!! I do also recall from driving on the road from Belfast to Dublin that there were signposts to another place called "Derry" in the Republic - this is not even mentioned on the disambiguation page!! Jonto 16:00, 23 July 2005 (UTC)

Jonto having gone gray haired when driving in Dublin and it's environs in the past are you sure this wasn't just the usual abysmal sign posting? ;-) However while we're at it there is an island off the coast of Chile called Londonderry as far as I remember, yep found it, just did the obligatory google - http://islands.unep.ch/IXE.htm#323. SeanMack 16:18, 23 July 2005 (UTC)

Hehe lol - could well have been the bad signs, though it wasn't actually as far south as Dublin - I think it was somewhere between Dundalk and Drogheda (or aroundabout there). That chile one should probably be added to the LD disambig page then. The problem with clarity (if someone can confirm the other "Derry" that I'm sure I haven't imagined!) is that there is more than one "Derry" in Ireland! Jonto 16:38, 23 July 2005 (UTC)

I've found 2 "Derry"s in the Republic - one in (Sligo and one in Wexford (the latter may be a river). Though, this doesn't explain the signs that I saw on the Belfast-Dublin road going in the Dublin direction (maybe that sign was actually referring to "Londonderry/Derry" - I guess that's Southerners for you if it was! :P ;-) ). All this confusion now makes me actually strongly support the change to "Londonderry/Derry" for the sake of absolute clarity and nothing else. Jonto 17:05, 23 July 2005 (UTC)

Just a point, the place in Sligo you refer to is actually Derrymore, not Derry. The place in Wexford is Drumderry. Please take care to actually read the maps before referencing them inaccurately. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.107.196.242 (talk) 01:51, 5 July 2008 (UTC)

Or some 'Londonderry' boys thought they would turn the sign around to point to Dublin to confuse the poor 'Derry' boys? :-)) SeanMack 17:38, 23 July 2005 (UTC)

lol :-) Good one! Now that I think about it even more, I'm sure that I've actually stared at that sign (or series of signs) on more than one occasion and wondered where the hell they were referring to!!Jonto 17:47, 23 July 2005 (UTC)

Here's a thought, the official road from Dublin to Derry may be that 'Bastard Road From Hell' diagonally across the county towards Donegal. If you saw the sign around Dundalk it may have been telling you to go South towards Dublin then take the BRFM to Donegal/Derry. (?) I always thought Donegal was about as neglected by Dublin as Derry is by Belfast....

I think that must be what it is - I see a road that goes diagonally NW south of Dundalk to Londonderry via Monahagn and Omagh. I was really sad and using encarta world atlas measured the distance of 92.5 miles taking this road from Dundalk - the equivalent distance was 108 miles if you take the route east of Lough Neagh. I've never been along that road, but from the sounds of the "BRFH" it would be better go go east of Lough Neagh due to the better roads!! The Republic's Donegal link must be the answer.Jonto 19:36, 23 July 2005 (UTC)

Perhaps the "Londonderry boys" thought that the "BRFH" was enough punishment for the "Derry boys" to endure :) Jonto.

After taking my own advice and looking up maps for Northern Ireland and Ireland on google images, I am now of the slightly modified opinion (again) that the article should definitely not be called "Derry" due to the vastly overwhelming number of image results containing "Londonderry". Added to the confusion caused by there being more than one "Derry" in Ireland, and my own personal confusion caused by the lack of clarity of the term, I will either support "Londonderry" or "Londonderry/Derry" as the article's title. The council's administrative area is already officially called "Derry City Council" (see the Template:Northern_Ireland page on wikipedia where "Derry" is also used) and the airport is already called "City of Derry Airport" - these are two areas where the name "Londonderry" has already been compromised and already reflected on wikipedia, and therefore to leave the city's (note not council's but city's) name as "Derry" (unofficial), rather than using the official name is not in my opinion really a fair "compromise" at all. It also, sadly, crosses my mind in a very cynical way as to the actual reasons why people are voting in the way they are on this issue Jonto 19:36, 23 July 2005 (UTC)

As for the road sign issue..didn';t you ever think that a Derry sign may be facing Dublin, becasue you may have to get off the motorway, in order to turn around (turn north) and the sighn is telling you that you have to drive south to get the turnoff?

• Keep Using both names as the article title is simply unencyclopedic. Derry is where the article is, and there are enough redirects outside and statements within the article explaining the dual name. And there is plenty of precedent on Wikipedia (See Yoghurt, Gasoline) explaining why article titles only have one primary name, including those with which both names are quite common. In this case, the official name wins out. ℬastique▼^talk 03:39, 23 July 2005 (UTC)

"In this case, the official name wins out." - Which is the official name??(Londonderry)Jonto 05:05, 23 July 2005 (UTC)

• Continue with the compromise (i.e. keep this article at Derry and the county at County Londonderry for reasons given above, use both in articles, and keep calm. One of the many problems is that depending on your POV, your view of what the official name of the place actually is now will vary: district council v. city charter. It is very 20th century to worry too much about it; they did not before, and we should not now. --Henrygb 04:07, 23 July 2005 (UTC)

• Keep current situation. Editor should have asked before trying to move, but would probably still not have got agreement. – Smyth\^talk 10:33, 23 July 2005 (UTC)

• Keep. Current situation (city article at Derry, but County Londonderry) makes sense and is a reasonable compromise to boot. The arguments for city article at Derry have all been gone through, but paramount among them are the facts that it is the most widely used term (even if just as a shorter form than Londonderry), both in the city and elsewhere, and that it is used by the local authorities. zoney ♣ talk 12:09, 23 July 2005 (UTC)

• Continue with the compromise. Only because the compromise of Derry for the city and County Londonderry for the county seems the most reasonable situation for now. – AxSkov (T) 13:44, 23 July 2005 (UTC)

• Keep at Derry - see Wikipedia:Naming conventions (identity). -- Naive cynic 15:27, 23 July 2005 (UTC)
  • Hmm... it seems that the official name is still Londonderry, and the city council hasn't changed it, as I mistakenly believed. So, the article should be at Londonderry. Of course, I still oppose move to any bastardized form, such as Londonderry/Derry. It's silly and ugly. -- Naive cynic 17:59, 23 July 2005 (UTC)
    • Comment The official name is not the litmus test for wikipedia, see Wikipedia:Naming conventions (common names), and a number of articles follow this principal. Djegan 19:12, 23 July 2005 (UTC)
• Keep CGorman 15:39, 23 July 2005 (UTC)
• Keep tpower 20:37, 23 July 2005 (UTC)

  It is worth noting that many of the "Keep" votes result from a little lobbying campaign among Irish editors by Djegan. --Henrygb 03:15, 24 July 2005 (UTC)

  • I have not lobbied anyone - I have written a message on the talk page of several wikipedians that I regularily work with informing them of the vote. I have not requested them to vote in any particular fashion - they are free to vote what way they want. If I have done anything wrong then please cite the relevant rule or proceedure. Djegan 08:49, 24 July 2005 (UTC)
    • You may not have requested them to vote in a certain way. However, I think that Henrygb has quite a point here. All (or a majority) of editors contacted were from southern Ireland (I assume this from looking at their user pages). This has distorted the geographical variety of opinion on this issue (The Republic of Ireland is known to exclusively use the term "Derry" and usually to have a mild nationalist bias). This is a problem I feel with many Irish/Northern Irish articles on wikipedia. In future if you are going to contact members for a vote, it would be wiser to contact members from a wider variety of geographical regions and political viewpoints.Jonto 00:14, 25 July 2005 (UTC)
• Keep (i.e. Continue with the compromise -- keep this article at Derry and the county at County Londonderry, as suggested above). It's not as if either existing article is attempting to deny the existence of alternative names, and each surely already includes enough caveats without our needing to resort to "double-headed" article names. -- Picapica 18:18, 24 July 2005 (UTC)
• Comment - This is an incredibly troublesome issue, but it seems to me that the best might be an article on the chartered city called "Londonderry," and an article on the council area called "Derry City Council" or whatever. The logic behind the current city/county compromise is that the county is "officially" called Londonderry, and the city "officially" Derry. But this is not true. The Council Area is the only thing which is "officially" called Derry, and I don't see why the incorporated city ought to be treated differently from the county. That being said, the current compromise has worked for a long time, and I'd rather not rock the boat on something so controversial. I certainly oppose a move to Londonderry/Derry, which is noxious. john k 18:35, 24 July 2005 (UTC)
• Keep stick with the current compromise - city article at Derry, but County Londonderry. -- Lochaber 09:24, 25 July 2005 (UTC)
• Keep under current name. Compromise is not a name in widespread use. Warofdreams 13:34, 25 July 2005 (UTC)
• Keep The stroke form is only useful as a redirect to the dispute article, as per Stroke City. To use "Derry" for the city and "County Londonderry" for the county is the fairest compromise. It's known as "equality of misery"! --Red King 14:41, 25 July 2005 (UTC)--Kiand 18:08, 28 July 2005 (UTC)
• Keep. I think I remember advocating Derry, and County Londonderry ages ago. It seems a reasonable compromise. The articles have to be somewhere, and Derry/Londonderry still could be taken by loyalists as giving 'Derry' priority. I'm not sure if the council area and the City cover different areas, although clearly the urban area (and possibly small-c city) is much smaller. Does the Lord-Lieutenant for the City cover the entire council area or just the old county borough? Morwen - Talk 14:54, 25 July 2005 (UTC)
  • The council area and city should be all in the same area (certainly the "City of Londonderry" does not exist as an administrative area distinct from "Derry City Council"). A very quick google leads me to believe that county and county boroughs form the basis for the Lord-Lieutenant and these should be the pre 1973 (district council) reforms - thus a Lord-Lieutentant for each of the cities of Belfast and Londonderry and the six counties of Northern Ireland. Djegan 17:39, 25 July 2005 (UTC)

• Keep. This is an emminently reasonable compromise. Personally, it wasn't till I was almost grown up that I knew Derry had a second name - until then I had always assumed the tune was in fact the 'London derriere', and thought it must be to do with how the accompanying dance went!Blorgina 16:27, 27 July 2005 (UTC)
• Extremely Strong Keep at Derry. --Kiand 18:08, 28 July 2005 (UTC)
• Keep status quo. --Gabriel Beecham/Kwekubo 02:07, 29 July 2005 (UTC)
  • The vote is closed. The petition to move was lost. See article history --Red King 08:50, 29 July 2005 (UTC)

City of Derry

The name City of Derry strikes me as being a non-existent entity. It is the authority that holds the City Charter, which is Derry City Council making the district around the old walled city the City of Londonderry. Anything named Derry cannot be a city because it does not own a city charter. In it's current form this article is incorrect. Most people in Rochester still consider it a city but that doesn't change the reality that it isn't. It doesn't matter what popular opinion is in the city. They probably all want to stop paying taxes but it doesn't change the law. While you can call the article whatever you want the city name remains legally Londonderry. josh 03:39, 30 November 2005 (UTC)

What can you do? Its is the most commonly used term for the city. Used by half the population of Northern Ireland and a majority of the people from the city. :: Keith :: 18:35, 2 December 2005 (UTC)

You can start with no allowing popular opinion take priority over fact. Calling it City of Derry is equivalent to calling the council Londonderry City Council. I'm not concerned about what name is seen to be premoted although I prefer Derry over the hijacked version. The problem is that using the term City of Derry is unencyclopidic and condones the POV of the nationalists. Using City of Londonderry doesn't condone the unionist POV it is just the current status that coincides with it. josh 22:03, 2 December 2005 (UTC)

The article only says "City of Derry" when talking about the airport and the rugby club. This is deliberate. --Henrygb 23:05, 2 December 2005 (UTC)

The infobox is titled City of Derry. The sentence The name of the city is specified by its Royal Charter as Londonderry, and many unionists continue to call it Londonderry. also implies that the name Londonderry has been repealed by the councils decision to call itself Derry City Council. The article seems to purposely avoid the fact that the offical name of the city is Londonderry. By all means use Derry but it has to be made clear that while Derry is the popular name, Londonderry is the official one. josh 00:22, 3 December 2005 (UTC)

I hadn't spotted the infobox, so I have changed it (similarly that for County Londonderry). I think The name of the city is specified by its Royal Charter as Londonderry is clear enough as to the legal position of the chartered city. And the photo of the walls could perhaps say Londonderry in the caption. But the article title is fixed by the compromise above. --Henrygb 17:01, 3 December 2005 (UTC)

That seems fair enough now. One point, the city walls no longer designate the official city. The council has the city charter so the city is the district that the council controls (see Leeds and City of Leeds to see stupid it gets). You can call the area within the city walls anything you want, including the old city of Derry as belive that is what it use to be. josh 17:13, 3 December 2005 (UTC)

Even then you need to be careful: the city is said (by the council and the article) to be Northern Ireland's second largest city; this depends on looking just at the primary urban area since the district has a smaller population than than the district of Lisburn City Council. The walled city was sometimes called "Derry" as in the siege or the Apprentice Boys, but it was built across the river from the previous Derry, and was (I think) officially Londonderry from its construction. --Henrygb 22:39, 3 December 2005 (UTC)

I think I got bit confused there. I thought they were just built around it. As for the old district/urban area chestnut I know all about that living in a metopoliton borough. The government successfully cocked up all decent definitions of city/town boundries during the 70s.

Shouldn't we go with the official name?

It is my understanding that the official name of the city is Londonderry. All nationalist and unionist preference aside, should we not be naming the article to fit the official name? A little web research informs me of the following:

• According to this Google Map of Northern Ireland, it's called Londonderry.
• Derryvisitor.com, which names the city as Derry City, admits in its FAQ here that Londonderry is the official name. "The name was originally Derry but was changed to Londonderry during the Plantation of Ulster, as the new city was built by London guilds. Both the city and county are called Derry/Londonderry, with Derry being used in some formats and Londonderry in others." Another entry in the same FAQ expands on this. "The official name of the town is Londonderry and that is why it is called Londonderry on the maps. Locally it is referred to as Derry and the City Council is also called Derry City Council. The name Londonderry was granted under a charter issued by James 1 of England in 1613 as part of the Plantation of Ulster. Under the Charter the Guilds of London were granted the area previously call Derry and therefore the change in name."
• A BBC news article refers to the city as Londonderry.
• According to the Derry City Council's webpage, the city's council is referred to as Derry City Council. However, this is not the same thing as the city having the official name of Derry. Certainly it is called Derry in addition to Londonderry, and with a nationalist population majority I'm sure the council themselves prefers the name Derry. However, they have not officially renamed their city or their county - at least not yet.

While I am sure that a significant number of people (perhaps even a majority) refer to the city as Derry, the official name of the city remains Londonderry. Wikipedia might cover video games,TV series and websites, but it is still an encyclopaedia, and is relied upon for factual information by a great many people. The name of the article must reflect the official status of things. --Jonathan Drain 01:31, 3 December 2005 (UTC)[5]

Generally, Wikipedia doesn't following official names slavishly. You might find Wikipedia:Naming conventions interesting reading. For example, note that the articles East Timor and Rhode Island are at those places rather than the full name, and Kiev has remained at that spelling despite the instience of quite a lot of Ukranians who are demanding we re-spell it Kyiv.

Whichever it is at people are going to be upset, so the approach we have to take is to say 'it doesn't matter where it is at', and then just pick one. I think it would a more productive use of time for anyone arguing about the name, for them to expand the article, which is not actually very good. Morwen - Talk 01:35, 3 December 2005 (UTC)

There currently are no naming conventions for city names, nor any relevant [conventions for Northern Ireland]. You've picked a bad example with Kiev since in this case it's primarily the locals who insist on Derry despite a more official designation.

If people are going to be upset either way, arbitrarily choosing one is not the correct option - Wikipedia has a policy on neutral point of view which comes into play here. Neutrally, the city is "Londonderry, also called Derry". If we name it primarily Derry we can be accused of nationalist or Irish bias, which Wikipedia aims to avoid. If we name it primarily Londonderry, we can at least defend against claims of unionist or British bias on the grounds that Londonderry is the official name according to the current law, and we are able to cite numerous authoritative sources which back up this fact. --Jonathan Drain 15:12, 3 December 2005 (UTC)

Taking the point of view of a minority, which is what calling the city "Londonderry" would be, and not the majority is undefendable bias, however. Its not going to be changed, simple as that. --Kiand 16:24, 3 December 2005 (UTC)

That's a bold statement, but claiming the name Derry to be the official one is contradicting a four hundred year old Royal Charter, Encarta, Google Maps, and pretty much any reliable source with the exception of the nationalist majority of the city itself, which is hardly surprising. With respect, since I note from your user page that you're from the Republic, I can't expect you to be unbiased in this issue. --Jonathan Drain 16:45, 3 December 2005 (UTC)

That last comment pretty much kills off any chance of presuming you were basing your suggestion on NPOV concerns. Obviously your concern is to push one community's political agenda. Your snide comment has just blown your attempt to change the name out of the water. FearÉIREANN\^(caint) 18:41, 3 December 2005 (UTC)

I'd like to know where I can buy these Wikipedia cannons which are so powerful as to simply declare opponents' arguments "blown out of the water". :) Seriously, though, I apologise if my comment came off as overly harsh. I consider myself neither unionist nor nationalist and do not aim to push either agenda, but if you suspect that I'm requesting the name change for reasons other than cold technical accuracy, you can see from my website's whois details that I live in a nationalist area. Seriously, we have like Irish street signs and all here.

I would argue that the city should be called Derry, if for no other reason than that the majority of its inhabitants, its own city council and most people in the Republic would like to see it that way. If nothing else, it would finally solve this name dispute! However, I'm a big fan of technical accuracy, and would prefer that the article go by the city's official name. --Jonathan Drain 01:44, 4 December 2005 (UTC)

Sorry, when did anyone make the claim that "Derry is the official one"? Morwen - Talk 17:37, 3 December 2005 (UTC)

"...you're from the Republic, I can't expect you to be unbiased in this issue..."; I am from "the Republic" as well and I have always insisted that County Londonderry be given prominance in articles and not be rolled back to "County Derry". You can hardly claim be be neutral when you make such an across the board statement as the one you made regarding a group of people? Djegan 19:05, 3 December 2005 (UTC)

My apologies for causing offence, Mr Djegan. What I meant to say was that most people in the South call it Derry, which for them has always been the official name, and as such I would expect most southerners to oppose the name Londonderry regardless of any Royal Charter. --Jonathan Drain 01:44, 4 December 2005 (UTC)

I seriously oppose being called a "Southerner" when I'm from futher north than most points in Northern Ireland are. --Kiand 02:41, 4 December 2005 (UTC)

For what its worth, the Council website is WWW.DERRY.GOV.UK. The FAQ doesn't even mention the alternate name. My understanding is that the Council want to get their version recognised, but Stormont refuses to do so and Whitehall won't change the status quo. So it seems that there is a nice touch of mental gymnastics to reach compromise. The legal name is Londonderry, but only the name Derry will be used. So both sides are satisfied and both sides are dissatisfied. BtW, I notice that BBC articles always manage to use both forms in every article. So far, every Wiki article does too: the petty dispute seems to be which name shall be the main article and which shall be the redirect article? The present arrangement, where we have one of each (for the city and for the county), has been seen as equally unfair and the majority of people have accepted it without too many revert wars. I trust that anyone who wants to re-open the debate has read all the relevant articles going back at least 1000 years. One needs to learn the flickers of the eye that allows people to pass each other in the street without bumping. This is one. --Red King 23:07, 3 December 2005 (UTC)

Just to correct you there, it's derrycity.gov.uk, not derry.gov.uk. That only means that Derry's the council's name. To be fair, though, that the council has taken the name Derry is a sure sign that not only are more people accepting the name's precedence, but that the name will sooner or later be officially recognised as such. Perhaps I should simply wait for the official name change to fit Wikipedia! --Jonathan Drain 01:44, 4 December 2005 (UTC)

Wikipedia is guided in cases of naming disputes by most common name. The most common name used for the city is Derry. Even the Unionist community only intermittently say "Londonderry". So under Wikipedia Manual of Style rules the page has to go at Derry. FearÉIREANN\^(caint) 02:12, 4 December 2005 (UTC)

Yet again, the "most common name" is brought up - in this case the most common name worldwide (i.e. on maps) is NOT being used. It may be the most common name within the city, but outside the city it is most certainly not. Keeping the name as "Derry" is most certainly implying a nationalist/Irish POV.Jonto 19:26, 14 December 2005 (UTC)

Jonathan has a very valid point about other contributors being from the Republic. We must remember that Jtdirl, Kiand, Djegan, and Red King are all contributors from the Republic of Ireland and will inherently have at least an Irish bias (if not also a nationalist one). This point is again being ignored. I recall there was a vote a while ago (along with a lobbying campaign by Djegan) where a very large proportion of the voters ended up being from the Republic. jtdirl - you are very quick to assume bad faith, (something I note that you seem to do as a habit by also looking at your talk page) and seem to use the "NPOV" clause as one to back up your own POV. Perhaps this issue would be best solved by input by those from outside of Ireland.Jonto 19:26, 14 December 2005 (UTC)

The official name is far too controversial to be used as the only name here. As mentioned, it was called "Londonderry" because it was colonised. The displaced people are now the majority in the city, and as such it is insensitive to them to just use "Londonderry". Also, the British Tory government in the 80's allowed the city council to call itself "Derry City Council". Equally, Unionists would resent it just being called Derry on wikipedia. Therefore, in the spirit of compromise call it Derry/Londonderry. Otherwise wikipedia's impartiality is under question. I would point out too that the Loyalist Apprentice Boys's official name is "Apprentice Boys of Derry", so they don't seem to mind calling it Derry sometimes. - Peter O'Connell

Image removed

I just removed (and deleted) an image of Nadine Coyle from this article. It had no copyright information, the uploader's only contributions were uploading the image and putting it in this article, and an image of Nadine Coyle licensed under CC-SA exists at the Commons. If this page's regular contributors believe that an image of Coyle belongs in this article, the free image article is http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Image:Girl_Aloud_1.jpg . Thanks for understaning. Jkelly 20:06, 3 December 2005 (UTC)

i cringe...

Is it just me because every time I think of this article I cringe at that "Derry/Londonderry" title in the info table, it is uneccessary and should simply be "Derry" as per the article title. Djegan 19:10, 9 December 2005 (UTC)

I accept your cringe is NPOV as you have said a similar thing at Talk:County_Londonderry. I don't feel strongly about it, but I felt that D/LD and CLD/CD were quick summaries of the articles pointing out the issue to people who do not normally read blocks of text. --Henrygb 22:24, 9 December 2005 (UTC)

This notation is widely used itrw to keep the peace. Unless you want to start yet another revert war, I advise you leave it alone. I'm afraid, in the scale of things, your aesthetic sensibilities are going to have to take a very poor second. --Red King 12:00, 10 December 2005 (UTC)

Map of Gerrymandered Derry

Does anybody have a map of Derry city before and after gerrymandering with information on votes versus representation? Thanks.

A CAIN document has a 1965 Catholic civil rights perspective. The map on page 3 has the 3 county borough wards shaded grey (North, South and Waterside) with representation figures on page 8. (As a passing comment, the document switches regularly between "Derry" and "Londonderry".) From 1973 the new district included the city and rural areas and used STV for elections and stopped basing the local franchise on local taxpayers, and you can see the votes (but no maps) at ARK. Note that in 1973 the SDLP/nationalists/republicans combined won a majority of seats while the United Loyalists/Alliance combined won a majority of votes. --Henrygb 00:57, 15 December 2005 (UTC)

Edits by LapsedPacifist

Regarding recent edits by Lapsed Pacifist whilst some of them are clearly pov, I believe that the edit as of 20:50, 31 December 2005 is acceptable the only infraction being over linking. As for the removal of two people these people are clearly of County Londonderry and not the city, so should not be in this article. Anyone in agreement (with me) as I am reluctant to start a revert war in his favour (without consensus)? Djegan 21:50, 31 December 2005 (UTC)

Regarding that website we do not place links on websites to maintain a "NPOV", I have no more intention of maintaing a nationalist or loyalist link - its simply linkspam not "personal views", dont attempt to take the moral high ground because you got burned here before - view the website, mostly links to otherwebsites and not substantial. Notwithstanding I will leave the link unless someone else removes it, but wikipedia is not a link farm either. Djegan 14:20, 16 January 2006 (UTC)

The two names solution seems like a fair compromise at this point. However, it is almost certainly the wrong way round (I think anyone would tell you this, to be fair) - calling the city "Londonderry" and the county "Derry" would bring things much into line with actual usage.

On this talk page I reverted so[6]. Their are terms and language within that discussion that go off the point, your comments are paramount to an ethnic slur and theirfore I have removed them. You are invited to make appropriate relevant comments to this talk page (on the subject matter of the article bearing in mind this is not a blog for random thoughts) and other pages but bear in mind your comments maybe subject to removal and indeed will be subject to the laws in your jurisdiction, for instance libel laws. You may want to read Help:Talk page, WP:NOR, WP:NPOV, WP:VERIFY for starters. In summary talk pages are not a place to apologise or excuse for history, nor a place to trigger ethnic wars or make ethnic slurs. Djegan 14:39, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

Just to butt in here with a comment. In the years I've been on Wikipedia I have seen thousands of Djegan's edits and I cannot think of a single one that was made that wasn't a valid NPOV edit or in the best interests of Wikipedia. While Djegan may be from the Republic of Ireland he is one of the tireless contributors on Wikipedia that does indeed put his personal views aside (whatever they are, I don't know and it doesn't matter) and helps to present the information in a neutral and encyclopaedic manner. Wikipedia has an agreement in place concerning the naming of the city (see WP:IMOS) and all Djegan does is help maintain this policy. If you don't like it then try and bring up a valid discussion on the topic instead of accusing people of bein POV just because they put forward a more neutral perspective that goes against your personal opinion. Ben W Bell talk 21:58, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

Surely if it is the wish of the majority of people in Northern Ireland to remain in the UK and they want that respected, then why is it that the Majority of Derry City (Doire, L'Derry) who are of Irish culture and beliefs, cannot have their city called Derry officialy?? Surely if Unionists wish people to respect their majority beliefs then they muct also do likewise for the majority peoples of Derry! --úsádaoir éireannach 01:10, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

Having now read more of Djegan's edits, I am inclined to agree with your point Mr. Bell. Djegan does appear to be quite neutral. As such I have deleted my own comments above. However, I made those comments originally, based on the fact that Djegan deleted some comments that I had made. My comments had in turn been made in response to somebody else's comments. Those comments were made by a person who was ridiculing the name Londonderry, and they were doing so from an Irish Republican perspective. Nobody deleted those comments. Djegan chose to delete my reply, but never considered deleting the original comments that had provoked my reply. As such I concluded that Djegan was an Irish republican sympathizer. I now retract that conclusion having read a wider range of Djegan's edits.

Actually, having worked and known people in Belfast and Derry for several years the standard term used seems to be Derry, unless we're in extremely volatile regions. So my vote goes for that. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.241.159.138 (talk) 16:15, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

The "standard term" doesn't matter. What should matter is the actual name, which is Londonderry.Mooretwin (talk) 20:20, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

Thats a bit hypocritical from yourself, considering you refuse to acknowledge that Ireland is the official and only name of the Irish state.Pureditor 21:08, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

Not according to WP:NAME, I'm afraid, which recommends using the most easily recognised name. Cordless Larry (talk) 20:33, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

Its "Derry" people

The majority of people min the city want to call it Derry, and the majority of people in the county want to call it County Derry. Therefore thats what they should be called.

>> That's all well and good, but an Encyclopedia has nothing to do what they think. It has everything to do with what the current state of affairs is. The city is called Londonderry, so this is what it the article should be called.

The audacity of some people to claim that an Irish city and county shuld have an English prefix is startling.

>> Not half as startling as the mental incapacity of some people to fail to realise that, like it or loathe it, the city is part of the U.K. Whether it 'should' have an English prefix is irrelevant. It does.

theres a river through the city, on the east side of the river people want to call it london derry, on the west side people want to call it derry —Preceding unsigned comment added by 172.201.197.61 (talk) 18:19, 21 October 2007 (UTC)

Images on the article

Does anyone agree that the images require cleanup? I don't think that a photo of centra is really necessary to the article, and the craigavon bridge photo is way too close to the bottom of the page.

Location of city in map

Just to note that the Infobox pin coords produce different results for the red dot mrking the city in the district using different skins. I cannot see what to adjust in Template:Infobox Irish Place --Henrygb 10:07, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

Name change latest

The BBC on 7th April 2006 says that the name issue is now going to a court of English Common Law and will be settled there: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/northern_ireland/4887352.stm

Sorry I dont have an account so im not logging in! Firstly thought it would be great if Wikipedia refered to the city as stroke city and made a link from both derry and Londonderry to that page. The city is still officially called Londonderry but to continue calling it that when it is resented by many people to me seams like a daft idea. I wish both communities could come together and give the city a new name and it would save a lot of bother. Lets refer to the city from now on as stroke city on wikipedia and do away with the Nationalist/Unionist bias.

do we know what the council actually did in 2003 when it 'started the process'. reading the legislation there seems to be a general power to 'change the name of the district of the council' by application to the Minster (presumably now the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland). unlike the england and wales legislation there is no supermajority requirement. there are four things here

the name of the council: this has been changed, or they are acting as if it has changed

the name of the district: this may not have been changed

the name of the chartered city: this doesn't appear to have changed

the name of the county borough: this hasn't been changed

the name of the county: this neither

if the council is officially the 'mayor, burgess and aldermen of the city of londonderry' that implies the city and the district are considered one and the same entity, so wouldn't changing the name of the district be enough? 82.35.13.34 06:10, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

A couple of years ago, I had correspondence with Derry City Council. I was interested in their coat of arms: specifically that a harp had been reintroduced into the centre of the cross at the top of the arms.

I was told that the arms belong to the Corporation of the City of Londonderry (officially the Mayor, Alderman and Citizens of the City of Londonderry), which is a different legal entity than the administrative Derry City Council, although it has identical membership - and thus Derry City Council are permitted to use the arms of the City of Londonderry.

Unlike in England and Wales, local government reorganisation in 1973 specifically preserved the existing county boroughs , with the charter applying to the local government district in which it was included after October 31, 1973.

the following is from the Local Government Act (Northern Ireland) 1972:

Section 132. —

(3) On and after 31st October 1973 the charter of—

(a) the corporation of each county borough...

...shall have effect in relation to the district which includes the whole or the major part of the

borough as existing immediately before that date, but subject to any order made under section 134(2)

( c ).

Section 134(2)(c) deals with the number of aldermen and freedom of the borough.

As far as I can see there is no provision for the changing of the name of a county borough/city corporation in the Act. This in contrast to the corporations of municipal boroughs, whose charters could be adopted by a new local government district. in the case of these corporations, if the name of the district was changed, the name of the borough corporation was too.

The District Council changed the name of district to Derry effective from 7th May 1984, and according to the council the legal position is that the "City of Londonderry is presently administered by Derry City Council".

When the city council applied to have the harp returned to the city arms (it appeared in the earliest depictions, but was removed in later years), the letters patent contained the following wording:

"And wheras the City of Londonderry is presently administered by Derry City Council (the name of the council having been changed by virtue of an Order made pursuant to the Local Government Act (Northern Ireland) 1972 on the eleventh day of April 1984 and effective from the Seventh day of May following) And wheras the Mayor, Aldermen and citizens of the City of Londonderry are desirous that the said Arms including the Harp may be borne with lawful authority by the said City And wheras Cathal Logue Town Clerk and Chief Executive Officer of Derry City Council hath on their behalf requested that we reconsider the premises and evidence for the use of the Arms..." (and so on). The letters patent certified the arms (with the harp) to the City of Londonderry. They are dated the Thirtieth day of April in the year of our Lord Two Thousand and Three. This is interesting, as every certificate I have seen from the College of Arms was dated using the monarch's regnal year. The Queen doesn't get a mention in the document, although the Kings of Arms making the grant are members of the Royal Household.

Anyhoo, the upshot of all this is (as far as I understand it):

• The District was renamed Derry in 1984
• The Council was renamed Derry City Council at the same time
• The City of Londonderry's charter extends to the entire District of Derry
• There is no mechanism for changing the name of the city in the 1972 legislation
• This means that the "District of Derry" and "City of Londonderry" are identical in area
• The "Derry City Council" and "Mayor, Aldermen and Citizens of the City of Londonderry" have the same membership.

It also means we have to replace the arms image. Lozleader 16:34, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

That makes sense, albietl a convoluted sort : the article needs to make clear that the district name changed, not just the name of the council. Also, there is still the county borough of Londonderry to consider, and its Lieutenancy : has this also been expanded to cover the entire Derry district or not? (*also ponders what Lisburn and Newry's letters patents look like : did it extend to the entire district of Lisburn? what about Newry which isn't the name of a district?) Morwen - Talk 17:33, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

Convoluted is right. As far as Lisburn is concerned, The Change of District Name (Lisburn Borough) Order (Northern Ireland) 2002 [7] would infer that city status extends to the whole local government district. I have been wondering about Newry's LP as well, I will try and write to them under FOI and get the text (that's how I got the Londonderry info). Probably a similar situation to those of Stirling and Inverness, designating a particular area (the former urban district?). Lozleader 18:01, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

Of course, legislation to create new districts defined under The Local Government (Boundaries) (Northern Ireland) Order 2006 may deal with the whole issue of city and borough charters, and inter alia the name of the city. Lozleader 08:45, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

Official Usage

The article says in official use the city is always known as Londonderry, but as a citation it provides a BBC article. Should this be removed/or at least the citation changed?

Londonderry is the official name, so I think the title of this article should be Londonderry—Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.219.8.6 (talk • contribs)

Derry GAA

From WP:IMOS The naming dispute can be discussed in the articles when appropriate. Which leads me to say that Owen Roe GAC other gaa clubs and its catergory should be all named derry as the GAA is mainly a nationalist past time and as stated here nationalist prefer the usage Derry . Would anyone agree ? (Gnevin 12:21, 12 September 2006 (UTC))

Disagree. The county is still called County Londonderry, that's just what it's called no matter whether someone being discussed is nationalist or not. However, the GAA calls the competing county Derry and that is the GAA naming convention as a name so that is fine, but the county itself, when being referred to as a geographical or political entity is County Londonderry. Ben W Bell talk 13:11, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

So when does the naming dispute can be discussed in the articles when appropriate. come into play it seems to me the this compromise is set in stone which is very stange for wiki where most thing are flexible (Gnevin 13:17, 12 September 2006 (UTC))

It's simply not appropriate for it to be discussed in every article where the county name comes up. In articles such as County Londonderry or the name dispute article then yes it is appropriate, but in most other cases it isn't appropriate to have another discussion of the issues. Ben W Bell talk 13:20, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

City side / Waterside

Does anyone else think we should make mention of the two main diferent area in Derry, ie the city side and Waterside? In fact we should probably have separate articles for both as well, but I think they defiently deserve a mention in this article as well.

What does everyone else think? (Derry Boi 10:21, 23 September 2006 (UTC))

I think we shoud mention the two areas in the article. I'm not sure about separate articles for both though. Cordless Larry 11:35, 23 September 2006 (UTC)

Personally I think there should be an article about the two and their differences but not two of them. Also make sure we include a bit-sized form in the main Derry article, like we do with History. Butch-cassidy 13:07, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

Can we move away from the name dispute and concentrate on improving the article?

The whole name dispute is all very interesting and all that, but I think we should drive to actually improve this article. I've been bold and taken the liberty of rating the article a class B (see top of page). I think now, while consensus can never be reached I'm sure, that it's time to carry on with the task of trying to make this a GA-class article. Any further suggestions? Mouse Nightshirt 00:18, 28 December 2006 (UTC)

An excess of sections

Actually looking at the article it has an impossible number of sections, 20m major and 5 minor. Can we trim them down, is their anyone that particularily is interested in doing this? Djegan 22:29, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

Court says name is Londonderry

The courts have said the offical name of the city is Londonderry. As this is the offical name, as well as the alternative name of Derry being said not to be the name, the article should be renamed back to its proper name of Londonderry. A reference could be made that the councils name is derry and state clearly that the offical name is Londonderry.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/northern_ireland/6297907.stm —--81.145.241.252 18:15, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

You can read about wikipedias move policy at WP:MOVE. Djegan 18:20, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

We all know what the official name is. We also know what most people in the city call it. I think the current compromise is the best. It isn't ideal, but Wikipedia works by consensus and to insist on Londonderry for both city and county would result in an edit war. That wouldn't help anyone. For the record, I think the court made the right decision given that no-one really cared about the name until the council name was changed in 1984 - changing the official name now would cause further division.

I don, however, wonder whether "In official use the city is always known as Londonderry" with the link to a BBC News website. Does that account for official use. The BBC often use Derry - their rule is that the first mention of the city in a news report is LD, the rest is just D.

NotMuchToSay 20:28, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

I think that while this should be mentioned in the article, that the current balance on Wikipedia should be kept. I've dreaded the reaction this was going to get on Wikipedia in starting a full scale edit war over all this when things are relatively peaceful (other than a few anons who appear quite regularly and stick their finger in). I'm for leaving them as it is. Ben W Bell talk 08:21, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

I agree, while I have a feeling that the position on this could flip-fop over the next couple of years from a legal stand point however the current agreement on wiki regarding the city and county works well and avoids no end of edit wars.--Vintagekits 09:15, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

The article really should be at Londonderry yes. That would be the most 'neutral' with respect to what its called.--Josquius 12:06, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

This argument has AFAIK been made thousands of times before. So far, you've provided nothing new to convince us that the article should be called Londonderry. As others have explained, per naming policy official names have little to do with what the wikipedia article is called 203.109.240.93 13:29, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

I've provided nothing new? What on Earth are you talking about, this is the first time I've posted in here....--Josquius 12:44, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

He means that you haven't said anything novel: everything you said has been said before, you haven't add a different perspective. --Red King 21:57, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

Note as well that the official name of Dingle, County Kerry is An Daingean but look what the article name is on Wikipedia. It doesn't have to be the official name that is used. For English speaking countries it usually is - but not always. NotMuchToSay 19:22, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

You are forgetting that this is the English wikipedia. An Daingean doesn't sound very English to me. Londonderry is the official English name of the city.

I'm not forgetting anything. The Irish government want to call Dingle An Daingean in English in a predominatly English speaking country.

Derry/Londonderry is a special case. No other Northern Irish (or Irish) city has such a disagreement amongst its people and the people at large about its name. I don't think it will work if let both be used, because there will be edit wars. I also think that if we allow this then people will argue that the "North of Ireland", "Six Counties" and "Ulster" are also allowable in referring to "Northern Ireland". The only variation to the current policy which may work is to allow the 'other' name to be used if it can be shown that the person concerned uses it primarily. Thus we could say that Nigel Dodds was born in Londonderry and that Derry GAA is responsible for GAA in County Derry. It would still not be ideal, however. NotMuchToSay 21:38, 28 January 2007 (UTC)

This so-called "compromise" is an absolute joke. No such "compromise" exists in reality - both the city and county are nationally and internationally recognised as "Londonderry" (internationally excluding RoI with it's natural bias). Wikipedia cannot just start making things up just because Irish nationalists have the pettyness to avoid saying the word "London". "Derry" is a perfectly valid shortened form of Londonderry, just as "Carrick" is a perfectly valid shortened form of Carrickfergus and "Ards" is a perfectly valid shortened form of Newtownards. The usage of "Derry" throughout wikipedia articles certainly should not be discouraged, but to use a shortened form of the city's title (as has just been confirmed in a court of law in the juristiction) for the article's title is just completely unencyclopaedic.

A more sensible and factual compromise reflecting reality would be do to as the major media outlets do - to have both county and city at Londonderry, but to allow either term to be used throughout the encyclopaedia, with editors reverting any petty edits that are simply changing one form to the other. Palo999 15:41, 28 January 2007 (UTC)

The problem cannot be solely blamed on one side. There is a naming dispute. If the people of the city were allowed to decide the name would probably be Derry. But doing so would alienate many Protestants. We cannot pretend this situation away and we cannot just call the place Londonderry as that name is disliked by many people. We have to come to some sort of compromise because Wikipedia works by consensus. Anyone reading the Derry article, however, would have no doubt about Londonderry being the city's official name. NotMuchToSay 21:38, 28 January 2007 (UTC)

The compromise is backwards to me. The city is Londonderry. It was founded as Londonderry and has always been Londonderry. Derry was a utterly different town which over the industrial revolution gradually became a part of Londonderry like many other towns around the world. The county however I see as Derry as that is what it has always been, Londonderry was founded in Co.Derry.--82.39.147.71 17:45, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

Are you serious, or is this a wind-up? The city is, of course, Londonderry founded from the small "Doire" settlement. Leaving the issue of what we should call the city aside, there has never been a "County Derry" although "County Londonderry" is often called that. Before County Londonderry, it was County Coleraine. NotMuchToSay 19:13, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

I agree also with what people have said, Londonderry today would be nothing without London. To say it wouldn't is just being ignorant and bias. It was a smell settlement when English settlers came and built it up and it became a thriving community.

I dont really see much about natinalists tryin to revert the County Londonderry home page back to CO Coleraine. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 81.145.241.57 (talk) 09:56, 3 February 2007 (UTC).

For what it's worth, the official name of a certain U.S. state is New Jersey, however, by predominate usage by the population in and around New Jersey the state is simply referred to as Jersey - BUT - the official name of the state is New Jersey and the Wikepedia article is titled as such. Then again, the U.S. didn't get all 'up in arms' over the lingering British names within their new nation. They realized they were just names. A rose, is a rose, is a rose... MapleLeaf (signed as User:Mapleleaf but actually entered by User:65.69.81.2 ((comment added by User:Ben W Bell)))

This is a very contentious and unpleasant argument and as much as I would personally prefer the article to be called 'Londonderry' as I view it as the cities true name I understand the need for the current consensus. An edit war would be unpleasant and distract people from improving the article to fighting over the name.

It’s a name, that’s all it is and there is no need to get bent out of shape over it. Unfortunately there will always be people on both sides who will be, and thus the need for a compromise. Butch-cassidy 10:40, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

I feel the exact same (and opposite!) to Butch Cassidy. As much as I feel both the County and city should both be called Derry, as I view that as the true name of both this agreement in necessary in order that we avoid edit wars on every page where the County or city is even mentioned once. We must all bite hard and swallow on this one. --Vintagekits 12:03, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

I think Vintagekits has hit the nail on the head, this is a working compromise (a rare thing when it comes to Irish topics on Wikipedia). Unlike the county there is a historical argument for the city to be called Derry. The Official name is used in the first paragraph, as County Derry is in the county article. That's good enough for me. « Keith ^t/_e» 17:07, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

Gaelic name

Why is Londonderry's official name not provided in Gaelic? Admittedly due to the political situation, it's unlikely you'd regularly hear anyone talking about Londaindoire or Doire Londain but surely it should be consistantly expressed in Irish as it is in English and Ulster-Scots? I would propose that it is included --Breadandcheese 22:58, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

First you'd have to cite a source for it. Wikipedia can't just make words up to tidy. --Red King 20:18, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

Derry/Londonderry 2

The legal name should be used. The section of the article concerning the name is adequete to explain that many people disagree with the name. As someone who wouldn't care if it was renamed Derry (should the pupulation vote that way) i find it ridiculous this so called encylopaedia has taken to a political compromise. If an anti death penalty group asked you to change some articles on capital punishment to 'state murder', would you do that just to appease them? 9again speaking as someone agaisnt the death penalty anyway). Wikipedia should use the legal name for the city and the county as it stands now according to law, and decided upon by the High Court. To call it Derry when the legal term is otherwise, is just politics. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.2.30.132 (talk) 18:36, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

Isnt an encyclopedia to give correct accurate information, if wikipeidia, decides, just to change the name of the article to make some people happy, even when they are incorrect, then the encyclopedia loses all crediblity. If the city and counties names where ever changed offically then i would accept the change, but until such a time, the name should remain Londonderry for both county and city.

No,we don't need a compromise that everyone can live with, we need to see the facts presented as they are. You start mucking around like this in an attempt to satisfy local opinion - which has nothing to do with your brief, by the way - and who knows where it will stop?? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.76.205.225 (talk) 12:53, 30 March 2009 (UTC)

If the name of the city is going to be called Derry there is a mistake 4 lines down where it refares to its as the old walled city of londonDerry.

The walled city is called Londonderry is called that because it was built (i.e. paid for) by Londoners --Henrygb 13:53, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

Yes, but it was unrightfully so paid for by Londoners. It never should have been invaded. How would British citizens feel if, let's say Birmingham was invaded by the Irish and renamed "Dublinbirmingham"? Britain are lucky that they never got invaded. They should get out of Ireland and go back to their own country, which is already bigger than Ireland. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Footyfanatic3000 (talk • contribs) 22:37, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

The name of the city is and always has been LONDONDERRY. Londonderry is the official and proper name. Shouldn't that be the name of the article? There is no such place as "Derry". That was a former city that no longer exists, Londondery being built in its place but because of political correctness and petty anti-British sentlement we have to put up with a bogus and offensive name for the place? Let's not forget Ulster is BRITISH. Why should we have to compromise? Londonderry is its name by Royal Charter, a position that has not been revoked and hopefully never will be. YourPTR! 11:59, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

Both names are actualy wrong it should be called Doire and we should be arguing over whether to call it Doire or Derry adding a London at the end is just too long a name . Dubhead

Right... Like Baile Átha Cliath is the "real" name of Dublin?? Okaaaay!! Strangely Dublin still prevails...  ;-) The comparison could be made with Istanbul/Constantinople. The Greeks' road signs all point to Constantinople (which is the name I personally would prefer) but no-one does not accept that the city's official name is Istanbul. In my own view, this article should be called Londonderry, even although I use "Derry" myself interchangeably with it, until such time as the official name is changed. You have to recognise the reality of the official state of play, until such time as circumstances may change. What if the articles on St. Petersburg or Volvograd were called Leningrad and Stalingrad respectively, and this was presented as their current names? Or if I renamed the Dún Laoghaire article Dunleary or Kingstown? 132.185.240.122 15:38, 2 June 2007 (UTC)

LONDONDERRY is the official name, and is what it should be called. The name Londonderry was passed in court as the official name when it was tried to be changed to "derry". As wikipedia is designed to be neutral, Londonderry should be the proper name for this topic, and not "derry", as this is favouring the people who call it the unofficial "derry"

This 'agreement' is a disgrace. The city is called LONDONDERRY under British law which both the UK and ROI governments recognise as the legal jurisdiction - in line with EU law which supercedes both. The county is also called LONDONDERRY. Only the Council area is named DERRY. Wikipedia should not allow itself to be used as a political pawn and should uphold information in line with the legal agreements in place. Poodler - 13/09/2007 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 145.229.156.40 (talk) 15:31, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

This article is ridiculous, wikipedia is supposed to give accurate, IMPARTIAL and purely factual information, this article needs to be renamed to LONDONDERRY. 82.41.100.220 (talk) 21:34, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

Stop being racist its Derry not Londonderry. Also talk about the double decker bridge. I think thats kind of unique and would be notable. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.180.237.144 (talk • contribs) 05:36, 13 April 2008 (UTC)

In what strange dimension is calling the city Londonderry rather than Derry "racist"? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 138.251.224.235 (talk) 20:03, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

This should be changed, Londonderry is part of the U.K and the U.K call it Londonderry, just like India change their city names to Mumbai etc, Wikipedia should follow the official line of that country, not the few and to reach a so called consensus with the few on Wikipedia. This is truly where Wikipedia is pathetic . --Rockybiggs (talk) 14:51, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

The article title should read LONDONDERRY. It is the LEGAL name. To call it anything other is unprofessional and is certainly POV. This goes by the consensus of Wikipedias NPOV rules. Not the panderings of individuals who take it upon themselves to make "compromises." As such it should be changed to it's proper name and not a name given because so called editors can't follow the rules they claim to follow. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.10.162.120 (talk) 00:51, 5 July 2008 (UTC)

Regardless of which side you take in this discussion make sure that you don't break existing links to pages. If you change the text in a link make sure that the new text has the correct page name applied as well, or add a redirect. srushe (talk) 17:53, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

I personally refer to the city as Derry, because it's shorter, and I don't have strong political views. But the city is officially called Londonderry, and if this is an encyclopedia, we should name the article accordingly. If we ever merge with the Republic, they will almost certainly change the name back to Derry, but until then, why is this even under discussion? It's like renaming the Mumbai article to Bombay.—Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.29.231.118 (talk) 12:48, 19 February 2009 (UTC)

Yes, that's absolutely right. This is ridiculous. I don't know how this whole Wikipedia thing works, but it's supposed to be an encyclopedia and deal exclusively in the facts. There is, in effect, no city called Derry so why, why, why is this article called Derry??? It's absolutely ridiculous. The previous contributor refers to the Mumbai example and there are probably lots of others - are you going to start adjusting all your entries headings in this utterly contrary fashion..? Incidentally,t's a reflection of the effectiveness of the republican propaganda machine over the years that you even feel the need to consider this. It usually doesn't occur to the do-gooders who want everyone to be happy that in attempting to placate minority opinion, you're actually offending the majority - but we've been living with it for years now, so we're probably practically immune. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.76.205.225 (talk) 10:52, 31 March 2009 (UTC)

The name of this article is (not) an affront to democracy

The official name of the city is Londonderry. It has this approbation through the will of the majority in Northern Ireland which in terms of community background is 53.1% Protestant and 43.8% Catholic. Therefore through self determination, the city's name is Londonderry.

However the continuing use of Derry on Wikipedia just reveals the pressure that the Protestant community finds itself in from the global community of republican sympathisers. Rather than accept the choice made by the majority of people of Northern Island, Wikipedia Editors care to ignore the democratic process. Instead the name of Derry has been imposed by the global majority.

So here is the compromise, the only compromise. If this article is to remain Derry, and it looks like it will forever from the amount of hawks that watch over it.

Why not have another article named Londonderry. When people search for either name, they can go to which ever page that 'floats their boat'. That way - just like the Troubles, the two communities are kept apart and generally mind their manners?

Or does my suggestion rile those who get a sense of empowerment from ignoring the will of the majority in Northern Ireland? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.147.154.183 (talk) 11:39, 4 February 2009 (UTC)

Feh, since there is only one main page for a topic, compromise is the best way we have of approximating WP:NPOV, although I'd give the compromise a tweak: Wikipedia ought to reverse the county and city names once every couple of weeks or so (which would render this page "Londonderry" and the county page "County Derry" for half-a-month and, respectively, "Derry" and "County Londonderry" for the other half). The problem with that: would anyone be able to keep track of when exactly to do such changes to stay strictly neutral? I don't really think so. 204.52.215.107 (talk) 04:39, 26 February 2009 (UTC)

Now we're losing the plot completely..! - Gracey —Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.76.205.225 (talk) 13:27, 30 March 2009 (UTC)

Why would "the majority of Northern Ireland", who after all don't live in Derry, have any say in the name of the city? Change Belfast to Londonbelfast if you wish, as a citizen of Derry I have no right to oppose that. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.148.165.124 (talk) 15:48, 22 March 2009 (UTC)

** I haven't read though the entirety of this because I'm from the city and I'm sick and tired of the whole thing, but I noticed that you state that as 'an agreed compromise' you'll adopt this silly Derry City/County Londonderry thing. Can I just ask, why does Wikipedia feel the need to adopt this 'compromise' in relation to the name of this city? Surely the point of this site is to provide the facts as they stand? The name of this city is not, as you have in your heading, Derry. Do you regularly depart from printing the facts and instead adopt a 'compromise' in order to satisfy some local opinion? Where else have you done this?

I just ask this because I'd like to know if Wikipedia is presenting me with the facts or with a version of the facts which is, in fact, not factual. Could you tell me what your policy is on this, because frankly, I think it's quite ridiculous that you've done this. It's the thin edge of the wedge and users really have no idea from here on whether what they are reading on Wiki is actually right.

You should amend this to reflect the name of the city as it stands now - and as a court has just ruled that it will stay - and note in passing in the text that there is some controversy over the name. That would have been the sensible and factual way to do this. - Gracey' —Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.76.205.225 (talk) 12:50, 30 March 2009 (UTC)

When it comes to a controversial name like this, we should surely stick to the official status quo name. "Derry" I feel is more controversial and more politically loaded than "Londonderry" simply because it is not the official name and therefore it seems one is going out of one's way to make a political point. It is rather as if someone was still insisting on using the name "Leningrad" or someone using "Petrograd" or "Saint Petersburg" in Soviet times. That would be more politically loaded than someone using "St Petersburg" today or "Leningrad" in the past. I think we should have the city as "Londonderry" because that is its official name. For the same reason "City of Derry Airport" and "Derry City Council" are acceptable. Booshank (talk) 20:25, 18 April 2009 (UTC)

"London" is "London". "Derry" is "Derry". It always known as Derry until the Ulster Plantations. I don't know why the English started calling it "Londonderry" when they invaded, but I think that they have no right to change the name that is used by the Irish. It is the Brits who started this stupid, pointless argument; and for what reason is something I do not know. Footyfanatic3000 (talk) 22:03, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:Ulsterbus Foyle.jpg

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Derry GAA and organisation in general

Can some please confirm for User:Biofoundationsoflanguage that the derry/londonderry compromise does not apply to the name of Derry GAA or organisations in general . That the compromise only applies to the legal geographic regions in the north known as county Londonderry and Derry the city (Gnevin 08:25, 8 August 2007 (UTC))

Where has this become an issue. Let me know and I'll have a look. Ben W Bell talk 12:32, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

If it's a name then I recognise my error and unreservedly apologise. I've just displayed my complete ignorance of GAA. Ignore me. Biofoundationsoflanguage 12:34, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

I made a response on Talk:List of Gaelic Athletic Association clubs. Yes you have to be careful as the GAA references are in fact quite acceptable uses of Derry in respect to county. It can be tricky to separate them sometimes, you just have to be careful. Personally I think we should just rename the entire county to something neutral and be done with all this but what can you do. Ben W Bell talk 12:42, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

We had this argument when some refused to accept that there is no such thing as the City of Derry County Grand Lodge.Traditional unionist 15:02, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

And what was the result?(Gnevin 15:05, 8 August 2007 (UTC))

The result is I've just gone back into the article and clarified the name of the lodge as the name rather than the location. Ben W Bell talk 15:21, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

Ok thanks for all your help Ben and Traditional. (Gnevin 15:25, 8 August 2007 (UTC))

That's okay. I knew there was something I'd been intending to go back and sort out to prevent edit warring and couldn't remember what it was, but now that's it sorted. Ben W Bell talk 15:29, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

This article's name is an embarrasment to Wikipedia

Not to go into a long rant, or coming from any kind of polictical standpoint, but this is an encyclopedia. It is supposed to represent the facts. Th city's name is Londonderry, factually and legally, regardless of popular sentiment. It is named so on maps, signage and legal documents. It makes a mockery of the notion that Wikipedia is encyclopedic by pandering to politicised editors. The title should be Londonderry, and the naming dispute should be a portion of the article. Anybody who disagrees is not fit to edit this page or call themselves an editor. 84.70.196.197 23:42, 2 September 2007 (UTC)

• Very much agree. I'm sure this has been discussed at length in the past but why, oh why, is this article not named after the official name! This would be like calling Belfast's article B'fast. Really, what is going on? I do not, of course, object to the usage of Derry being reflected but surely Wikipedia deals in fact and, fact is, this city is called Londonderry.--Counter-revolutionary 18:52, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

Very much agree. Especially considering this has recently been through the courts, who found the name to be Londonderry.Traditional unionist 22:03, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

• You could of course say that Wikipedia is outside the control of the state and therefore does not consider decisions by a state as fact, but rather what a democratic consensus considers them to be. In that regard, Wikipedia might be the best encyclopaedia ever. If that may be or not, please don't just state that anyone who disagrees is not fit to edit this page, at the very least that is an argumentative logical fallacy. --Jason ^(talk) 02:01, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
• I'm sorry, but anyone who believes democracy and consensus have anything to do with recording truth and reality really does have no business editing an encyclopedia. By that logic a school that teaches creationism because a majority of the parents believe it, or a madrassa preaching violent extremism due to the local tribal communities beliefs are the best schools ever. That's a logical fallacy, and it's yours, not mine. 84.70.160.104 05:18, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

Northern Ireland has been in existance since 1921 and Londonderry's district council has only been officially called Derry City Council since 1984. However its official Royal Charter status can only be changed by the monarch so the city is still officially called Londonderry. As Londonderry resides in the UK and its official name is Londonderry, the article should be called Londonderry. Derry City Council can retain its name on its page as thats the councils official name - not the city's. Neutrality wise how can you object to the official spelling of the city?

The only people who truely object are the large amount of Irish republicans/nationalists that are on Wikipedia. Why can't they put aside their political bias on the topic, its such clear bigotry on the matter. London was added as a prefix to derry in recognition of the London companies job in rebuilding the city after the Irish originally destroyed Derry. Yet nationalists in their anti-Britishness feel like its Britains way of imposing their authority over the city, but then why not call Armagh, Londonarmagh if thats the case etc. etc?

Secondly Londonderry was built on the west bank of the river Foyle as oppossed to the original east-bank location of Derry (which as said was destroyed by Irish), so you could say its an entirely new settlement near an older settlement that lied across the otherside of the river, so you could say this new settlement was called Londonderry from its birth and thus the name Derry is defunct.

In fact you can blame the Irish for the creation of Londonderry for if they never totally destroyed the originally settlement of Daire in the first place it would never have had to have been entirely rebuilt by the London companies. But then again maybe King James should have called the city Derrie as he originally planned. Mabuska 00:04, 11 September 2007 (UTC)

• Well we don't bloody well call Mumbai Bombay or Harare Salisbury, do we! So why call Londonderry by it's (incorrect) non-legal name?! To make matters worse we, for some reason, call Krung Thep Maha Nakhon Bangkok! This article is so PoV it's hardly even amusing. --Counter-revolutionary 20:44, 11 September 2007 (UTC)

• The difference here is this is the English version of Wikipedia and Bangkok is the English for Krung Thep Maha Nakhon, which as the article states is the Thai for it. In the English speaking world Krung Thep Maha Nakhon is known as Bangkok and thus applies in English Wiki. If the Thai's had their own language Wikipedia i'm sure the article would be called Krung Thep Maha Nakhon. Londonderry is the official name of the city in the English speaking world. The article isn't called Doire which is the Gaelic for it, thats reserved for the Gaelic version of Wikipedia. And Harare is known as Harare in the English speaking world as its actual name was changed to somethnig totally different by that countries government. Just like we don't call the Democractic Republic of Congo, Zaire anymore or Zimbabwe - Southern Rhodesia, as their governments changed the name. In the UK, Londonderry has not been changed to Derry by the government. Mabuska 22:13, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

There is a mountain of discussion on this already. Please go back and read the archives to find out how the present compromise (City of Derry, County of Londonderry) came about. It has all been discussed ad nauseam many times before. --Red King 22:27, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

The compromise is faux pas and caters totally to Irish republican ideals. How can you object to the official English language name for the city? Its a joke that the unofficial politically motivated Derry push is granted precedence. As i've already stated above, Derry City only applies to the council name not the actual city. Mabuska 22:13, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

• Indeed, what the hell need is there for a compromise which totally dismisses fact. I'd like to call Mumbai Bombay and Hare Salisbury, personally, but I don't try and push this as a PoV on wikipedia as it's not fact!! --Counter-revolutionary 22:15, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
• Exactly. So what if a 'compromise' has been reached between politicised un-impartial editors? Since when should reality be the subject of compromise to protect fragile egos against the harsh truths of the world? There's a lot of people who believe the holocaust was a myth, shall we 'compromise' to them and label it fiction? So what if the roadsigns are routinely vandalised? The fact is that the roadsigns read Londonderry in the first place and are put there by the ruling official authority. An encyclopedia should never compromise. It should be a bastion of truth, not mob sentiment. Let's call Mumbai Bombay while we're at it and label creationism fact. Red King, please go back and look up the term 'encyclopedia' - it's not synonymous with mob agreement. The truth is empirical, not negotiated in a kangaroo court, especially when flying in the face of undeniable legal truths. 84.70.160.104 05:13, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

Exactly. All it would take for this compromise to have been reached was the large republican userbase on Wikipedia, maybe mobilised by the Irish Republican WikiGroup, to amp up the vote their way. Like at this present moment those of us who have commented in this section of the talk page appear to be in consensus that the article should be called Londonderry - especially as no-one has recently come forward to defend the usage of Derry - which they know they can't as its not the de jure name of the city and they have no proof that most people call it Derry and want it called that.

In this light i challenge those in favour of Derry to provide REAL proof from unbiased impartial bipartisan sources that the majority of people in the real world want Derry called Derry. Otherwise this article should be reverted back to Londonderry, the de facto and de jure name of the city.

Like we don't call county's Laois or Offaly, King's and Queen's County anymore do we, as the southern government, where those counties lie changed those names. So the name of a city is dependant on what the state says it is and not politicised POV's.

Is there anyway we can take this to the bosses of Wikipedia? I'm sure they don't want anymore hits on their fact credability. Mabuska 21:26, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

Some vast Irish Republican WikiGroup conspiracy! Huh? If you want to move it look at WP:MOVE, but "cut and paste" moves are not allowed. Djegan 21:29, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

• This needs moving and protecting. There's already enough distoring of history and reality due to sectarian and religious nutjobs in the world, hopefully we can protect the wiki from that. I understand you all don't like the name and that's fine, but don't force your bile down our throats please. Someone coming here for the first time would think the City was called Derry. And it's not. And for an encyclopedia to wilfully distort the facts like that is unforgiveable. Can we get an admin ruling please? Somebody? (and BTW all the red IP comments are from me although the address is different - Steven) 84.70.180.0 07:02, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

Unfortunately I'm beginning to see wikipedia prefers consensus to fact. I fear this is a lost cause. --Counter-revolutionary 08:58, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

I'm new to this discussion but I feel that i would like to participate. Have we actually have a formal move request? Reginmund 21:06, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

It is unfortunate that so much time is still being spent with arguments over these Derry City and Londonderry county articles. Wikipedia, as an international organisation have made an excellent and impartial compromise with the naming issue. DERRY is the name of the article relating to the city as the majority of Derry's inhabitants and indeed the council wish it to be named so. LONDONDERRY is the name of the county article as this is how the people have voted in the article. I know unionists may argue that the official name is Londonderry and this cannot change, however the name was made official undemocratically by the British government of the time and not by the will of the Derry/Londonderry people. If there is going to be unsolicitated edits to change these articles to agree with others POV's then these problems will never cease! --  RÓNÁN   "Caint / Talk"  20:58, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

What you believe to be undemocratic is neither here nor there. Is this not an encyclopedia? The name is Londonderry, that is the fact of the matter, just as it is with Rosslea, Carrickfergus, Newtownards and Draperstown.Traditional unionist 22:41, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

I have no biased POV whatsoever but I feel that the name of the city can be changed by the city whenever they want. After all, the city council are Irish aren't they? And if they decide what the name is, what is the problem? Reginmund 21:12, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

The city council can call it's self John Hume land if it so desires, that doesn't change the name of the city. Thats a matter for the sovereign.Traditional unionist 21:24, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

Well if the sovereign decides on the toponym, then why shouldn't we honour that? I think there should be a line drwan between what is common and what is correct. Reginmund 21:28, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

Well said that man.Traditional unionist 22:38, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

Unfortunately there were alot of sovereigns and rulers in history who emposed their say over the majority of a people undemocratically in an area, these were also known as dictators.

--  RÓNÁN   "Caint / Talk"  22:53, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

If you can name me more than one democracy in 1613, then I'll take that remark seriously.Traditional unionist 22:58, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

Just because these sovereigns were supposedly cruel (I think that genocide is more serious than a toponym) doesn't mean that we should ignore something that they imposed. I'm sure a lot of people were infuriated at some certain election results, but that doesn't mean that we should dictate what should have happened. Reginmund 17:20, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

My point Traditional Unionist, is not the lack of democracy of the time, rather the continual justification for its namesake by, as you are indirectly stating, a non-democtatic decree from a monarch that was never in the city/county! Reginmund, Sovereigns played an active part in genocide in order to build their empires, take British colonisation of Africa in the african wars of the 18th century, however this is not the article to talk about such things. As a democrat, I do not believe in an old monarchist system where you are born to rule, clearly this is undemocratic. What I AM saying is if the people of Derry City wished its name to be Londonderry I would not have a problem and would wholeheartedly accept this as a democrat, however we both know (population demographics) that Derry city has a larger nationalist population and thus is why the council voted the name change. Unfortunately from an outdated and undemocratic decree from 1613, as traditional unionist kindly pointed out, we still have this problem! --  RÓNÁN   "Caint / Talk"  21:03, 28 September 2007 (UTC)

Maybe I was a little hazy before. The point I was trying to make is that these aren't the people that make the name of the city, despite the fact that it is. Here's a snip from self-identifying names:

Bear in mind that Wikipedia is descriptive, not prescriptive. We cannot declare what a name should be, only what it is.

Y'know, maybe the name should be Derry considering that it is the right thing to do for the residents. However, we cannot declare what a name should be just because some monarchs named it quite unfairly. We can only declare what it is and the name is Londonderry. Wikipedia didn't choose the name, the residents of the city didn't choose the name, the monarch did. We cannot prescribe what is write or wrong. We can only report it. Reginmund 23:54, 28 September 2007 (UTC)

But the article does report that Londonderry is the charter name. You have conveniently omitted to quote the very relevant sentence from the same WP:Naming conflict that deals with precisely this problem: Wikipedia should not attempt to say which side is right or wrong. However, the fact that the Cabindans call themselves Cabindans is objectively true – both sides can agree that this does in fact happen. By contrast, the claim that the Cabindans have no moral right to that name is purely subjective. It is not a question that Wikipedia can, or should, decide. It is objectively true that the majority of the people of Derry call their city "Derry". Clearly some editors argue that they have no moral right to do so. But Wikipedia must record what is, not what you think ought to be. --Red King 19:33, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

Very true. And the city is called Londonderry, even kif you think it ought to be called Derry.Traditional unionist 11:40, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

That is the exact point that I have been trying to make. Yes, the name ought to be Derry but it isn't Derry; it is Londonderry. Wikipedia should record what is and not what it ought to be. Reginmund 02:30, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

Wikipedia has kindly delt with this issue on a compromised basis by naming the county's namesake as "Londonderry" and the city's namesake as "Derry" and for an international organisation this has to be aplauded as i am sure that they have no interest in the internal politics of a small island and its argumentitive population in the north of that island. Can Unionists not compromise rather than hiding behind the officiality of an outdated degree from a non-resident king from centuries ago? It is clearly stated in the article that "Londonderry" us the chartered name for the city thus Wikipedia have given this point as fact.

--  RÓNÁN   "Caint / Talk"  20:35, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

To me, this isn't a Unionist or Nationalist issue. That is why we shouldn't prescribe this toponym as outdated because it certainly isn't. I'm sure many Wikipedians vote based on their political views but that isn't how we should vote on the subject. Yes, there are many things that one may oppose. For instance, I oppose the Indian renaming of cities in English becaue they have the responsibility to name their cities. Kolkata is what the name is. Calcutta is what it should be. Londonderry is what the name is. Derry is what it should be. Reginmund 20:46, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

Anyone ready to start another move request? It appears that the previous occured two years ago. We already seem to have all the arguments out and I would be curious if anyone would like to participate. Reginmund 22:16, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

Unfortunately your previous comment highlights my point. India as a sovereign nation, should, if the people democratically wish to do so, rename their townlands to their former linguistic form. As outsiders, neither your opinion, nor mine is relevant on that matter as it is a matter for the Indian people alone. This is being tried in an area in Ireland also where Dingle is being reverted to its former pre-colonial Gaelic name An Daingean. Ultimately these examples are similar to Derry/Londonderry's as it is a colonial past that is the root cause of the naming issues. With that being said the cause is irrelevant to fixing the problem we have here at present. I will again state that I believe Wikipedia have solved this issue in the short term with the naming compromise but that if people cannot settle on compromise then we may very well need another vote on the issue which will affect every article with Derry/Londonderry in it. I for one think we should let the issue rest on compromise. --  RÓNÁN   "Caint / Talk"  16:27, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

You are drawing comparisons that don't exist. Northern Ireland is not sovereign, and the sovereign has decided that the City and County are called Londonderry. Whatever you think it ought to be, it is Londonderry, and wikipedia needs to respect that.Traditional unionist 12:41, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

That is exactly my point. That is why I brought up India in the first place. If Northern Ireland was sovereign, they may name their city Shangri-La but they aren't. It doesn't even matter that we are "outsiders". We can still have an opinion on this subject. The compromise was settled two years ago. Consensus can change. Reginmund 13:50, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

With all due respect Traditional Unionist (user) the current Queen of England is, as you continually state, the current sovereign though she did not issue the name Londonderry to the city. The monarchy in Britain is largly a ceremonial roll in todays terms and does not incorporate the power they once had. You are picking out aspects of my last comment here also, because i was highlighting similarities to Northern Ireland and India based on what Reginmund thought should be the case in that country even though he is not resident, i do also believe that consensus can change on both opinions for the city, and the statelet. I am well aware that Northern Ireland currently sits within the United Kingdom and I respect the unionist people, as the majority to do so. They however do not respect the wish of the majority of Derry/Londonderry in terms of their citys name. The name is Londonderry by official historical decree but referred to as Derry by the vast majority of the people of that area and indeed the people of this island, who find it silly to change something it was called by them for centuries just because a non-resident ancient monarch wished too reward his Guild's (not the city of Derry!) in trading with Derry at that time. Again I say if anyone takes issue with Wikipedia's naming comprimise on Derry/Londonderry, please request to bring this to vote however i feel, in doing so we will again look like a laughing stock as this issue will drag on and on! --  RÓNÁN   "Caint / Talk"  14:05, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

In Northern Ireland we have done away with majority rule. Further to which, most people in Newtownards call it Ards and Carrickfergus residents refer to their town as Carrick. Wikipeida does not take linguistic laziness as a reference. The name of the city, by virtue of the Royal Charter granted by the sovereign, is Londonderry. What its residents call it needs to be explained and adequately outlined, but not dictate the name of the article.Traditional unionist 14:12, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

I am disappointed and saddened Traditional Unionist (user) in how easy you can sum up the use of the name Derry as linguistic laziness. To compare it factually as simply shortform laziness is both grossly inaccurate and ignorant.

(1)Derry was anglicised from the Irish word Doire used for the area incorporating Derry City for centuries before Londonderry even came to be known to unionist citizens, thus it is not used as a lazy term for Londonderry, on the contrary it has been used longer!

(2) Newtownards and Carrickfergus were norman settlements and given names to reflect this as "new town" and "Fergus' Castle" they have always been known as these names and the short form "lazy" term as you describe it, only applies here as the "lazy term" name for the area does not predate the longform name.

Your use of royalist linguistics leaves me wondering if this has been indoctrined into you as it sounds more like a mantra, however again I take your point that an undemocratic outdated non-resident charter renamed the city. But we are getting no where with the same arguments over and over again, and thus I guess need to leave it or do a vote request. --  RÓNÁN   "Caint / Talk"  14:36, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

I don't see how it matters that the British monarchy is a figurehead. I don't think it matters either that I am not a resident, so that is not the case I though, it is the case I knew. You again state that the Unionsts should respect what the majority wants. That is not a factor in this discussion. We don't prescribe what a city's name should be, only what it is. Northern Ireland is still part of the UK and they go by their rules which state that the name of the city is Londonderry. India, however, is not. India makes their own names. Reginmund 14:20, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

The political and constitutional status of Northern Ireland is not relevant to this topic, I find it unfortunate that Unionists fail to compromise on this issue rather than hiding behind the officiality of an ancient and undemocratic "royal" decree. Could it be argued that this issue has more to do with dominating than officiating? --  RÓNÁN   "Caint / Talk"  14:47, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

The official status doesn't matter! Nonsense. I want to call Zimbabwe Rhodesia, most people I know would want to also, anyone who knows about Zim would want to too probably, do we, no - fact is that it is Zimbabwe now, no matter how much anyone dislikes it! Same for Bombay! Why not go ahead and prevent WP recognising the very existence of Northern Ireland? It's really quite absurd to me. Fact is fact and that's all we can have. --Counter-revolutionary 21:15, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

Again we have the use of a foreign example. As I do not know the history of Zimbabwe/Rhodesia, I will not comment on its lack of relevance to the Derry/Londerry situation. But what I WILL say is that if in todays society, we can dictate fact against the will of the people, then why the need for democracy?? --  RÓNÁN   "Caint / Talk"  22:28, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

You're clearly confusing democracy with mob rule. Democracy in itself isn't that bad but you lot are making it sound terrible! --Counter-revolutionary 22:12, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

Unfortunately the only thing clear here is the ignorance (and perhaps a misguided Unionist perception of Irish Nationalism) in your assumption of my meaning of the word majority with, for some reason, that of a mob. Is a mob not violent? Did I in any comment state the use of violence? the answer is NO so please do not insult this debate with exaggerations. Could I also point out to readers in this that some Unionist uses of fact can at times seem abit hypocritical on Wikipedia. If I take Traditional Unionist (user) for example, here you campaign for the article to be renamed Londonderry along with Counter-revolutionary (user) yet dont you both also campaign to see the use of the Ulster Banner as the flag for Northern Ireland on Wikipedia? You state it is a defacto flag, yet defacto is not fact and thus the northern ireland flag is not shown on wikipedia as it has no official status, sure it is used by the northern FA and some sporting organisationss to represent the north, same as Derry is used every day by sporting organisations (GAA, Derry City FC) and the people of Derry to represent the city/county!! Should I accuse you of double standards in this regards? --  RÓNÁN   "Caint / Talk"  22:28, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

Please do not edit with your political affilliations. There are toponyms that I oppose using that I use anyway. I'm not trying to make history here and neither should you. Reginmund 00:31, 12 October 2007 (UTC)

Again please state where i have written that i am trying to make history? These type of sensationalist statements only defer from the matters I have raised. I do not state political affilliations no more than you, however I have presented a differing viewpoint on matters including potential double standards on certain editors parts, and you have yet to address this, diverting instead as to why i am raising these concerns. If you wish to use fact as an argument to changing the article name to Londonderry, surely you must apply the same principles to the Northern Ireland flag issue and defer from supporting its reuse as it is factually not the flag of the area. I have raised this point earlier not to mock, but to try and perhaps show you that what is indeed fact may not be correct in the minds of people with opposing views. To simply brush aside the opinions of others based on a questionable fact does not help remedy a situation. --  RÓNÁN   "Caint / Talk"  07:59, 12 October 2007 (UTC)

Could I also point out to readers in this that some Unionist uses of fact can at times seem abit hypocritical on Wikipedia. If I take Traditional Unionist (user) for example, here you campaign for the article to be renamed Londonderry along with Counter-revolutionary (user)

A user name or political affiliation should not be used to judge a user, no matter how biased their opinion may be.

I have raised this point earlier not to mock, but to try and perhaps show you that what is indeed fact may not be correct in the minds of people with opposing views.

This is exactly what I mean by how Wikipedia should not prescribe. Yes, it is wrong, it is silly, let them have their name if they want it to be Derry. I agree with them. However, it just isn't and Wikipedia can't make history by doing what is "right". We're not Amnesty International. We are an encyclopaedia. Reginmund 14:29, 12 October 2007 (UTC)

Thank you for pointing that out in terms of using a users name. I have seen this user do likewise and unfortunately followed the example. As for your second point i will quote from a particular user in a subsection below (whos username i will not disclose now that you have brought the rule on that matter to my attention) in the voting column which may support the Wikipedia usage of Derry. Their quote is :-

To paraphrase more fully, we don't do official names unless actual English usage does not yield a widely accepted English name; so WP:COMMONNAME, WP:NCGN. Prove that first, to the content of both factions here, and then we can discuss what the Council chooses to decree.

regards, --  RÓNÁN   "Caint / Talk"  20:35, 12 October 2007 (UTC)

The usage throughout English appears to be split[8][9]. 3,520,000 v. 3,380,000 (and actually more for Londonderry). That's about an 8% difference. I submit that other criteria be considered. Reginmund 22:39, 12 October 2007 (UTC)

Could you varify where you are getting these figures from? i have looked at your search and if you look at the right corner of the blue Google bar going across the top 3rd of the page you will see in actual fact that there are quote, "Results 1 - 10 of about 8,590,000 for derry" (source = Google.com search for Derry) versus quote, "Results 1 - 10 of about 7,720,000 for londonderry" (source = Google.com search for Londonderry || (Though for google.co.uk the figure is actually 7,830,000) - make sure when testing the google.com domain, that it does not revert automatically to the google.co.uk address - this is to provide an accurate result.) --  RÓNÁN   "Caint / Talk"  23:00, 12 October 2007 (UTC)

What is your point? I am getting them from Google. Reginmund 23:19, 12 October 2007 (UTC)

My point is that there are significantly more results for Derry than there is for Londonderry almost 1 million more to be infact. I was questionning where are you seeing your figures clearly on the search page of 3,520,000 for Londonderry versus what i see (7,720,000) and for Derry you have 3,380,000 versus what i see in Google.com (8,590,000)! My figures are taken from the blue line bar (on the google.com page) on the top right hand side 3rd of the page--  RÓNÁN   "Caint / Talk"  01:12, 13 October 2007 (UTC)

Whether or not your results are higher, they are only about 10% let alone there is no reason to discriminate mine against yours. Take it with a grain of salt, either way it is too close to call. That is why other criteria should be considered. Reginmund 01:17, 13 October 2007 (UTC)

they are not my resuts, rather the results of google!! You still have not told me where your results of roughly 3.5million for both came from in Google and I would like if you could explain to me how you managed to come up with them? I have searched multiple times and they are always 8.59million for Derry and 7.72 million for Londonderry, that is a significant difference of almost 1 million thus your comments rejecting the Common name rule below are unjustified.--  RÓNÁN   "Caint / Talk"  15:53, 13 October 2007 (UTC)

I don't understand what "where" you want me to get them. I am getting them from Google. I have searched multiple times and the results are always 3,520,000 (Derry) v. 3,380,000 (Londonderry). The fact that I am getting 10% more for Londonderry makes your comments unjustified. Otherwise, it doesn't make Google a reliable way in determining the common name in this case. Reginmund 17:27, 13 October 2007 (UTC)

Ah the infobox

Why can I see the infobox on Northern Ireland cities and towns turning into another flag issue? I've reverted back to the UK location infobox for a couple of reasons. One, regardless of the polictics Northern Ireland is part of the UK, and the UK info box information is more relevant. Two the Ireland infobox shows NI and locations on it without any part of the surrounding "other country". It simply looks weird to see NI floating in space. What I don't want is a revert war (I'm looking at least at two likely candidates here *glare*). Part of me wonders if a specific NI template might be a compromise. --Blowdart 20:59, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

Infobox title

The meta tag for the title is "Official name". Well, the official name in UK law (which has jurisdiction) is Londonderry. Of course the official name chosen by the Council is Derry. So it seems to me that we should have both. If the purists insist that we can't have that compromise, then the only single option is Londonderry. There is a strange symetry in having the article called Derry and the infobox title as Londonderry. It (dis)satisfies both traditions equally! --Red King 19:04, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

I see no reason why both names can't be used in the infobox, as it also helps highlight to dispute over the name.--Padraig 20:11, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

Actually the Council have no jurisdiction over anything other than what the COUNCIL is called. They could change the name to John Hume Land if they wanted, and so long as Arlene Foster agreed to it, it would be so. That does NOT change the name of the City though.Traditional unionist 11:22, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

*evil* Yea, but then which should come first? *non-evil* The official name, as we all know is Londonderry, so really it should be Londonderry/Derry, rather than the other way around. --Blowdart 11:59, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

Fair comment - and it balances the equality of (dis)satisfaction a little. --Red King 18:32, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

Please halt on naming and infobox debates

I am saddened now again to see that as well as the frustrating "naming issues" that have arisen within the Derry/Londonderry/Doire articles, there is now some people from Unionist backgrounds looking to UK infoboxes for towns/cities as well as the counties. While i agree in principle with further additions to infoboxes for northern and indeed southern counties, i fail to see Blowdarts issue for changing town/city infoboxes within the north. There has been no issue upto this point with northern townland and city infoboxes. I have researched Wikipedia infoboxes for UK cities such as Cambridge, Liverpool, Glasgow and Edinburgh and the only infoboxes in these cities to show any consistancy are the Scottish ones, which differ significantly from their English counterparts. In conclusion, as there is no consistant UK-wide infobox for towns/cities I am happy to keep northern town/city infoboxes as they are. This being said, I am still expecting others here to now request a different "northern" infobox from that of the Irish town/city infoboxes for no reason other that they fear similarity with our island neighbours! Lets concentrate in updating the great history and culture content of our towns and cities rather than ruin them with petty political debating!--  RÓNÁN   "Caint / Talk"  08:28, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

I only brought it up as a particular user was going through and changing them from the UK infobox, as it is right now, to the Ireland one; which removes a bunch of useful information which is applicable to a UK town. I find it funny that you're happy to keep it as is, and yet you're talking about it being an Ireland one; which it isn't right now *grin* --Blowdart | ^talk 06:13, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

Places Of Interest

I think it would be fair to define a "place of interest" in the city to be one that has historical, cultural or educational merit. Of the places listed in this section, there are several I would consider removing. It would appear that a few have been added as a cheap advertisement:

• Brunswick Super Bowl, Pennyburn - A bowling alley could hardly be thought to be a "place of interest" and should be removed.
• Strand Bingo Hall - How did this even get in here? A bingo hall. Would suggest this be deleted immediately.
• The Collon Bar - This one is a little more subtle because of its architecural award. But I don't think it would be seen as something that would draw, say, a tourist to the city. Should be removed from the list, but the mention to it earlier in the article should be kept.

I will conduct the above changes in the next few days, if there are no objections.

Marmite disaster 23:43, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

Requested move

The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the proposal was no consensus to move the page, per the discussion below. Generally speaking, we don't predicate titling decisions on either original names or official names. The most relevant naming convention advises us to use the most common name for the place. It has been argued that Derry is more common, and it has also been argued that Londonderry is more common, but there is no consensus that either of these is the case. Thus, there is no consensus to move the page at this time. Dekimasuよ! 04:39, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

---

Derry → Londonderry — Londonderry is the official name of the city[10] —Reginmund 00:34, 12 October 2007 (UTC)

Survey

Feel free to state your position on the renaming proposal by beginning a new line in this section with *'''Support''' or *'''Oppose''', then sign your comment with ~~~~. Since polling is not a substitute for discussion, please explain your reasons, taking into account Wikipedia's naming conventions.

• Support - As nominator. Reginmund 00:36, 12 October 2007 (UTC)
• Support per nom. I've always known the town by its full name by the way. Húsönd 03:09, 12 October 2007 (UTC)
• Oppose Leave it alone; neither of these addresses our test on such matters: what do English speakers call the city? We don't do official names. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 04:26, 12 October 2007 (UTC)
  • There may well be a case to be made on those grounds, but this is not it; and why stir this cauldron, anyway? Septentrionalis PMAnderson 04:35, 12 October 2007 (UTC)
  • Please inform me which guideline says that "we don't do official names". English speakers actually do call this city by its official name. Some of them, however, don't. Reginmund 04:51, 12 October 2007 (UTC)
    • To paraphrase more fully, we don't do official names unless actual English usage does not yield a widely accepted English name; so WP:COMMONNAME, WP:NCGN. Prove that first, to the content of both factions here, and then we can discuss what the Council chooses to decree. But, on the whole, it would be better to leave all the inhabitants of the Island of Ireland to settle their grievances somewhere else, and not stir up trouble. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 05:22, 12 October 2007 (UTC)
• The two names are somewhat matched in commonality among English speakers so it is less of a common name argument (by Google test). It is less about what is common and more about whether the distressed nationalists make the name or the distressed politicians make the name. I for one think that the inhabitants should choose the name but they don't. Henceforth, Wikipedia should not prescribe, but describe. Reginmund 05:45, 12 October 2007 (UTC)
• Oppose The official name is not always the common one. Djegan 04:28, 12 October 2007 (UTC)
• Support - an encyclopedia should reflect fact. The common name from Mumbai is Bombay, but we don't call it that. --Counter-revolutionary 09:08, 12 October 2007 (UTC)
• Oppose Because we've just closed the door on one set of Troubles, and we don't need another. There is a very acceptable naming convention already in situ regarding the city and county names, which has been defended by both sides of the argument as long as i've been here. It will achieve precisely nothing to mess with that. MurphiaMan 15:23, 12 October 2007 (UTC)
• oppose the current solution works fine using Derry for the City and Londonderry for the County.--Padraig 15:54, 12 October 2007 (UTC)
• Support When there is such a split in use, I think the official name should take precedence. I supported the move of Myanmar to Burma despite that not being the official name (according to their military government, anyway) because 'Burma' was far wider in its use. There certainly is a far wider use of 'Derry' than Londonderry, in my opinion, to justify the article to be called by any other name than it's official name. Certainly where I live, I hardly ever here reference to 'Derry'. Biofoundationsoflanguage 16:40, 12 October 2007 (UTC)
• Oppose The current compromise has proved itself in limiting edit-wars over the years. --Hroðulf (or Hrothulf) (Talk) 16:57, 12 October 2007 (UTC)
• Oppose I couldn't really care either way but changing the article name is a sure fire recipe for endless disruption and edit wars. Valenciano 17:47, 12 October 2007 (UTC)
• Oppose per WP:NC(CN) --Barryob Vigeur de dessus 18:03, 12 October 2007 (UTC)
• Oppose The Wikipedia compromise reflects name usage for Derry city/Londonderry county to a rough extent, in terms of city and county population demographics. Though some may argue what is indeed fact, the same people also argue against fact when it suits their political agenda, i.e.NI Flags Issue. Thus compromising their credibility. --  RÓNÁN   "Caint / Talk"  20:24, 12 October 2007 (UTC)
• Oppose - Derry is used by 80% plus of the city and thus the name should reflect this. The county (even if you exclude the city) has a nationalist majority and should be called County Derry, but thats a debate for another day I suppose. Derry Boi 23:14, 12 October 2007 (UTC)
• opposeThe status quo may have limitations, but any change could ignite a lot of unconstructive activity. Rjm at sleepers 12:56, 13 October 2007 (UTC)
• Oppose - If, as suggested above, the current situation is generally acceptable I can see no purpose in creating acrimony. Ben MacDui (Talk) 13:51, 13 October 2007 (UTC)
• Support - Londonderry is the official name. If this is supposed to be an encyclopaedia Londonderry should be the name of the article, which should contain discussion of the controversy. At some point the official name may change to Derry. 217.44.221.165 17:00, 13 October 2007 (UTC)

• Comment do editors still have to be logged in to vote? This editor is not logged in. Djegan 17:09, 15 October 2007 (UTC)

• Weak Oppose - The whole naming problem is obviously political. Now considering I come from a family line with strong connections to the Orange Order you'd think I'd want it moved, but frankly the constant edit warring that would create would be destructive. I'd love to see some actual facts about usage from Derry Boi as opposed to simply stating some random percentage *grin* Yes the current naming is, to my mind, wrong, and the official name should take precedence, but what we have is a good example of the Northern Ireland compromise, both "sides" are pissed off *grin* It's interesting however, if we went for common usage, should Birmingham be moved to Brum? Of course not which, in my opinion, shows that common usage as a justification isn't acceptable. --Blowdart | ^talk 08:08, 14 October 2007 (UTC)
• Support I haven't seen a single argument thus far that stands up. There is one test - what is the official name according to the soverign government of the area. The only answer is Londonderry, there is no acceptable reason to name this article anything else.Traditional unionist 15:45, 14 October 2007 (UTC)

• Comment What does your soverign Government say is the flag of Northern Ireland?. You seem to rely on the government position when it suits your POV, yet ignore it when it dosent.--Padraig 15:53, 14 October 2007 (UTC):

• Comment That is an entirely different situation - that flag should be used as there is no other specifically representing Northern Ireland. Here it is black and white, with no mitagating circumstances (such as a derogation being required for practical reasons)Traditional unionist 15:57, 14 October 2007 (UTC)

• Comment This is a example of Unionist supporting editors using British rule and it laws when it suits them, and ignoring them when it dosen't. So why should the Ulster Banner be used, because it represents the glory days of Unionist Rule, those days are over, there history just like the government that the Ulster Banner represented.--Padraig 16:22, 14 October 2007 (UTC)

• Please be civil and refrain from making personal attacks. This page is to discuss the naming of the article, not to bloat about Irish sovereignty. Reginmund 16:25, 14 October 2007 (UTC)
• Support - I'm not pledging a sectarian allegiance, and fully recognise the dynamics behind dispute, but I think the article should be entitled "Londonderry". -- Jza84 · (talk) 16:32, 15 October 2007 (UTC)
• Oppose Moving it would be disruptive, and cause more edit warring. Derry is a common enough name, and the article mentions both names. Lurker (said · done) 18:34, 15 October 2007 (UTC)
• Oppose. There is no right answer, but the current compromise is the least wrong answer. --Red King 19:01, 15 October 2007 (UTC)

• Thats the best reason I've heard. It encapsulates everything nicely. MurphiaMan 19:42, 15 October 2007 (UTC)

• Support - The cities official name for 400 years should take precedence on an 'encyclopaedic' site. Butch-cassidy 09:52, 17 October 2007 (UTC)
• Oppose. The current position is a compromise, and one that has worked for many months: Derry for the city, and Londonderry for the county (incidentally, there has never been a County Derry - it was County Coleraine before County Londonderry). Each side gets an entity each, named what it wants. No, its not perfect, but imagine the edit wars if its moved... Bastun^{BaStun not BaTsun} 00:25, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

Discussion

Any additional comments:

• Comment- This is something I've considered a bit in the last few months, and haven't come to any conclusion over what it should be. On one hand the city is indeed called Londonderry as dictated by the head of state (whether democratically elected or not has absolutely no bearing on anything), and officiated by a judge in a court of law, signs directing to the city are listed as Londonderry and it seems predominant usage in the state in which it resides in official and semi-official is for Londonderry. However on the other hand the usage of local residents seems to slant more towards Derry, with the council calling itself Derry City Council (though remember this is just the council not the city, there are many cases of city and borough councils being different to the city or area name). Local usage has a big impact on this. I really cannot decide. I would like to see some neutral statistics on what the usage of each version really is. It doesn't help that Londonderry appears to be widely used, but so does Derry, so it's not a clear cut decision. Also we need to ask the question, does the weight of people living outside the area have more of an influence on the decision than the locals? Should the usage of people living in a separate state (Republic of Ireland/Ireland) have a weight of bearing on this or just the usage of people in the state in which it is situated? Also how much weight should officialdom be given considering it is the government of the country and undoubtedly in English. Ben W Bell talk 11:58, 12 October 2007 (UTC)
  • Comment - I'm tempted to vote support on this, for the reasons Ben has pointed out. ie, there is no definitive proof which name is more common. Also, the Kolkata, Mumbai, and Yangon articles all use the official name, and Londonderry is undoubtedly the official name. But can you imagine how much effort it would take to implement this? Firstly changing thousands of links, and secondly reverting the inevitable mass reverts back to Derry. So as with Ben, I'm on the fence for now. Stu ^{’Bout ye!} 15:49, 12 October 2007 (UTC)

I'd be happy to do all of that if you'd like! --Counter-revolutionary 16:07, 12 October 2007 (UTC)

I will help. Reginmund 22:35, 12 October 2007 (UTC)

• Comment - to anyone opposing the move because of the common name rule, that argument is somewhat moot. Derry and Londonderry are almost consistent on Google[11][12]. A mere 8% difference (with Londonderry actually being the more commonly used). Reginmund 22:41, 12 October 2007 (UTC)

You seem to be ignoring the fact that the County is also called Londonderry --Barryob Vigeur de dessus 23:02, 12 October 2007 (UTC)

You seem to be ignoring the fact that the county is also called Derry. Reginmund 23:16, 12 October 2007 (UTC)

When I click on your links (within England), I get:

• Results 1 - 10 of about 7,830,000 for Londonderry
• Results 1 - 10 of about 8,570,000 for Derry

So how is Londonderry "more commonly used" - have I missed something? In any case Google is only one source of information. Djegan 23:10, 12 October 2007 (UTC)

From my statistics, it is. However, Google tends to fluctuate depending on where someone is geographically (I'm currenty in London). The point is that the statistics are to close to call. Other criteria should be considered. Reginmund 23:16, 12 October 2007 (UTC)

Well I live about an hour south of you. Someone above has also suggested figures similar to mine. While I can understand a small percentage variation (<10%) its difficult to reconcile the "3,520,000 v. 3,380,000" (see above section[13]), i.e. about 50% reduction in figures returned by two other people and Londonderry bigger rather than smaller in two other cases. Djegan 23:24, 12 October 2007 (UTC)

Yes I agree that Google is only one source of statistics, however it was the source that you gave in your points in the section above and thus is one that i too have researched. I accept that there may be Google fluctuations depending on area, eg Google.co.uk and Google.ie. However on Google.co.uk Derry still returned the most results (8.75million) compared to Londonderry (7.83million) on Google.com (the default Google site) its 8.5million for derry and 7.68million for Lodonderry again more than double earlier quoted figures and again Derry comes out with more results, thus for the Google example, the Common Name Rule is valid and should not be dismissed for this article. --  RÓNÁN   "Caint / Talk"  16:03, 13 October 2007 (UTC)

I am getting more for Londonderry than Derry. Thus, I would think that if the common name rule is valid, then it steers in favour of Londonderry. Either way, we cannot argue who's statistics are better. The fact that it fluctuates between 20% and you are getting 10% more for Derry while I am getting 10% less just shows that no, the common name rule is not valid in this situation. Reginmund 17:24, 13 October 2007 (UTC)

The common name rule does not steer in a predetermined direction as you seam to believe. It is guided by the facts, i.e. the occurence of the name, in this case by a Google test. I (and someone else) have clicked on the links you provided and they give approximately twice as many returns as you quote (in the order of seven/eight million), but instead about 10% weighted in favor of "Derry" (i.e "Derry" is about 10% more common than "Londonderry"). You cannot dismiss the common rule just because it does not favor your point of view. In any case people can click on the links you provided and decide for themselves based on whats returned. Djegan 22:44, 13 October 2007 (UTC)

Please refrain from putting words into by mouth. I never dismissed it beacause it doesn't suit my point of view. I dismissed the Google test because of its ambiguous results. Specifically, between me and other editors. Nor do I believe that the common name rule steers in a predetermined direction, on the basis of whatever the hell you are insinuating. As stated by WP:NCON, there are other ways of determining the common name besides the Google test such as with international organisations, other encyclopaedias, and media outlets like NATO[14], OSCE[15] (pg. 8 paragraph 5), Google Maps[16] CBS[17], the BBC[18], The Guardian[19], The Times[20], Britannica[21], The Daily Telegraph[22], Channel 4[23]. Reginmund 23:40, 13 October 2007 (UTC)

Lets have a closer look (using the google function that allows you to limit a search to a particular domain "site:anywww.foo" - note folks their may be variations in what you get when you click on the links below but proportions should not vary wildly) at the websites you provided by Reginmund because one instance on a particular website is hardly significant (could be just a typographic error, or equally their could be an alternate name in document somewhere):

• website -- Derry -- Londonderry
• nato.int -- 1 -- 5
• osce.org -- 0 -- 1
• maps.google.com -- 0 -- 1
• cbsnews.com -- 94 -- 58
• news.bbc.co.uk -- 41,400 -- 33,300
• guardian.co.uk -- 1,880 -- 475
• timesonline.co.uk -- 692 -- 559
• britannica.com -- 479 -- 1,490
• telegraph.co.uk -- 1,340 -- 1,020
• channel4.com -- 467 -- 162

In summary six domains in which "Derry" is used more often than "Londonderry" and four domains in which "Londonderry" is used more often than "Derry". The websites in which their is zero or one occurences are hardly statistically significant.

In absolute terms a total of 46,353 occurences of "Derry" and 37,071 occurences of "Londonderry" on the websites that you have provided. Maybe we should include a few websites in Ireland, just for good measure? Djegan 00:10, 14 October 2007 (UTC)

Problem is those searches are also not terribly accurate for this issue either. Derry is also used in the US for some counties and townships, as is Londonderry. There is a band called Mr Derry, along with other uses of both words. Also those searches will also be picking up references to the counties as well. Also remember that news stories may well use one term more than others as there are many stories out there that discuss the issues of the naming in both county and city may well use one term more than others. Not all returns of Derry or Londonderry are actually for the city of Derry or Londonderry and this needs to be taken into account. Of course it is tricky to go through these and pick them out, but in most of the sizable returns above I noticed on the first few pages many pages that aren't appropriate to this discussion. For instance a lot of the BBC ones that hit for Derry are talking about Derry City football club (the name of the club) or Derry league GAA games. Results like this really distort figures, and I'm sure there are also similar distracting results for Londonderry as well. Ben W Bell talk 01:04, 14 October 2007 (UTC)

I agree with you their, these are only a rough indication and no substitute for painstaking, through and unbiased analysis of results. But because the issue is raised previously it needs some balance, and comparing and contrasting rather than going unchallenged. People can ultimately make a more informed decision for themselves. Djegan 01:21, 14 October 2007 (UTC)

Lets search some Ireland based websites using the same methodology I have adopted above (because the views of Irish-based academia and media count to). I have tried to avoid very biased outlets, like ideology or political based stuff (but again these are raw and unfiltered results so caveat emptor as returned from a quick google).

• website -- Derry -- Londonderry
• belfasttelegraph.co.uk -- 2,160 -- 995
• ulster.ac.uk -- 1,360 -- 2,430
• qub.ac.uk -- 433 -- 395
• rte.ie -- 96,800 -- 310
• independent.ie -- 3,990 -- 9
• ireland.com -- 15,700 -- 180
• examiner.ie -- 906 -- 6
• sbpost.ie -- 53 -- 1
• u.tv -- 8 -- 4,740

In total thats 121,410 for "Derry" and 9,066 for "Londonderry" - or seven websites in which Derry is more common than Londonderry and two websites in which Londonderry is more common than Derry. Four websites based in Northern Ireland, and five websites based in the Republic of Ireland. Djegan 01:21, 14 October 2007 (UTC)

Again taking the Belfast Telegraph example, and the Derry results (I'm just taking results at random, not due to trying to prove one view or another), you list 2,160 results. If you then remove results containing "Football", "cup", "GAA" or "final" (should get most football related items) the results drop to around 280, a great deal of those results are therefore shown to have been about football. Also many (but granted not all) of the rest of the results are about proper names of organisations which would contain Derry is it's in their name but this isn't directly relevant to use of naming of the city. This is just an example of how these results all need to be broken down more and analysed a little more. They don't always give the results we are thinking they do. The Ireland based ones possibly show more accurate usage results for city names, but then again most of these have taken a deliberate political stance on which term for the city to use. It also raises the question of whether results from a different political state should be taken into consideration or not. Ben W Bell talk 01:32, 14 October 2007 (UTC)

Agreed except for the last point, no "political state" gets censored on wikipedia. Djegan 01:37, 14 October 2007 (UTC)

Ah no you misunderstand my intention, it's not about censorship, but if we're talking names of a city in a state shouldn't that state's usage gain priority over an outside states? Ben W Bell talk 01:44, 14 October 2007 (UTC)

Indeed as a final point about sources lets remember that whilst its easy to quote results returned from a trendy online search engine (abeit not always an exact science) their are many other things that can be used to measure how common a name is. The occurence in all the books in a national library, periodicals and printed newspapers of every type, addresses in a database, interviews of personalities, entertainment, organisations, manuals of style, old ladies on street corners in conversation. In summary we should not fall down by quoting results from just one source. The internet is not the sum of human knowledge, nor the pinnacle of human society. Djegan 01:55, 14 October 2007 (UTC)

However, the Internet is our only source (other than books which we can cite with an ISBN). Unfortunately, we cannot go to septuagenarians on our street corner and inquire on their manual of style. That would be original research. The best we can do to determine the common name is scrutinise each individual source unless we are absolutely sure that ambiguity will not persist. Reginmund 05:58, 14 October 2007 (UTC)

Counter-revolutionary says that "Londonderry is undoubtedly the official name". However, there is no UK body that gives "official" names to settlements. There are frequently differences between the name used by the local government unit and the name used by the inhabitants - see Hull - but neither is more official than the other. There are other examples where the name used by the local government unit was at odds with usage by inhabitants - such as LCC and GLC. Certain sources carry more weight - Ordnance Survey for example - but that doesn't make it official. It is polite to use the name adopted by the people concerned, but no more than that. In this case (as with most naming disputes) there are strong political and religious issues underlying the dispute and any change to the status quo will unleash a flood of unconstructive editing. Rjm at sleepers 08:06, 15 October 2007 (UTC)

Your point on Hull is a good one - the proper name for the City is used, not the vernacular. As it should be.Traditional unionist 11:50, 15 October 2007 (UTC)

Errr...[24] yes, it is official. FYI, "Hull" is at Kingston-upon-Hull. Reginmund 14:13, 15 October 2007 (UTC)

The matter of the status of Londonderry is rather academic for the purposes of a move proposal. In particular, the guidelines WP:UCN WP:NCON maybe useful for reference. In summary, the official name of something is not always the name used for the article title. Djegan 14:29, 15 October 2007 (UTC)

There are vast differences between the naming issues of Derry/Londonderry and that of Hull. I have seen instances where authors in wiki are either forgeting or just erasing the fact that the term Derry (Doire) is not just a short-form of the name Londonderry but was the original name for the settlement, this is why it is still so commonly used by people not just in Derry, but throughout the world. It cannot be simply dismissed as a short-form name as it was commonly used for the area long before Londonderry. I believe the guidelines as per the guidelines WP:UCN WP:NCON should be used in relation to this article. --  RÓNÁN   "Caint / Talk"  16:34, 15 October 2007 (UTC)

As part of the banner above says, but appears to allude some editors:

Since polling is not a substitute for discussion, please explain your reasons, taking into account Wikipedia's naming conventions.

Djegan 17:14, 15 October 2007 (UTC)

Londinium was the original name of London, should we change that too? We haven't actually established the status of the common name. It appears to be matched by the search engine test. However, WP:CN also reccommends to use what media outlets, other encyclopaedias, and governments use. I have already provided link to their usage, including the goverment that obviously makes the laws in Londonderry's country. That should be more than enough reason to move this page than anti-English sentiment. Reginmund 22:27, 15 October 2007 (UTC)

Obviously "London" is the most common name for the largest city of England - but we can hardly compare "Londinium" with "Derry" - lets be realistic, if nothing else. However if you look at the two tests I ran above, one of websites suggested by yourself and a separate set of websites determined by myself, then "Derry" is the more common in each case overall (notwithstanding the caveats discussed). The links "to their usage" you supplied are only that - isolated cases of usage, not how common one is relative to the other - correct me if I am wrong with specific cases and links you referred to previously.

If the best reason for renaming is because Londonderry is "official" then as one editor put it when opposing "Moving it would be disruptive, and cause more edit warring". Because no strong, motivating case has been articulated. No one has been able to prove that Derry is less uncommon. Regards. Djegan 22:51, 15 October 2007 (UTC)

No one has been able to prove that it is more common. May I remind you that half of the results given by your Derry tests referred to American toponyms. The point I was trying to make with the "London" argument is that the fact that "Derry" is the original name of Londonderry has no merit here. Thus it wouldn't at Talk:London either. Reginmund 23:04, 15 October 2007 (UTC)

I have just a couple of points i would like to highlight from what i have read thus far.

• Firstly "Londinium" IS, in part similar to Derry, if you want to take it that "Londinium" was then anglicised to the present English-language form London as the Original Irish "Doire Cholm Chille" was anglicised to the modern english-language form "Derry" however that is where the similarity ends. Londinuim never had an addition to its name as Derry had, thus you cannot take that point further to include this issue.
• Secondly, the user whom originally brought up the Google-based search results was not complaining on the fact that they were only one-type of result when that user thought Google backed up his claim that Londonderry was shown to be more common. When it was pointed out that other users found significantly more results from the same search backing up Derry as the more common find, that user was then dismissive of the Google and internet-type searches. Now it is believed that no one can prove which is common! This argument is turning out to be a type of farse in itself. Can i also state that Derry would not be associated in the Talk:London section because Derry does not feature significantly within the history or culture of London (UK Capital) and I do not know why this, as an example was brought up. Derry has every merrit here as it is significantly the dominent term for the city and county by the majority of its inhabitants, and is known in reference to the city even by those who refuse to call it so. May i suggest now that we let this issue drop and stick to the current Wikipedia Naming Compromise for Derry (City) and Londonderry (County) as consistant reasoning and polling for change are not holding much weight. As one user in the vote section has so nicely summed it up, "There is no right answer, but the current compromise is the least wrong answer. --  RÓNÁN   "Caint / Talk"  11:26, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

That wasn't your point earlier. Your point was that Derry was the original name and so was Londinium. Regardless of how the name was changed, whether it was anglicised or an affix was added to it, yes I can take the point further. We need not live in the past.

I never said that Derry was featured in Talk:London. I said that the argument to move London to Londinium wouldn't stand simply because it was the original name and it shouldn't stand here either. Just because it is the majority used term by its inhabitans, doesn't make it correct. Big Ben is the most common term with the inhabitants of London. That doesn't make it right either. Ironically, since Derry is wrong, that isn't a proper way to "sum it up". As one Wikipedia guideline has nicely summed it up: Wikipedia cannot say what a name should be, only what it is. Reginmund 14:22, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

Yes my earlier point that Derry is the original name was to counter the myth made my some on this discussion that the use of Derry is simply down to either a "laziness" in the shortening of a longer name or some kind of pet name fondly used by the inhabitants. I again see that I need to stress this point as now you strangely compare it to a kind of pet name like Big Ben is to the Westminster Clock Tower in London. You cannot make these comparisons as Big Ben was never used as the founding original name for the Clock Tower in Westminster! To say this is living in the past by calling the city a name by which a majority of people know it as is wrong. Every name of every locality in Ireland comes from a historical Gaelic name for that place. I am sure this is also true in Great Britain with your proud Saxon, Welsh, Scotish Gaelic and Cornish traditions.

Again with the Londinium example you have given, this comparison cannot be used as no significant majority of people, both in international terms and indeed inhabitants of the city of London knows the city as Londinium, nor do they wish it to be changed! To use this comparison accurately would only be correct if the people of Derry/Londonderry wished their city to be known in the Irish-language form, "Doire" which they do not.

To fully understand the issue, you need to understand the history of the city and the Derry name. By doing so you may appreciate that giving simplistic comparisons from Great Britain and India maybe both inacurate and a distortion.

Finally your quote at the end shows me (*sigh) that now we seem to be going in circles as, by using it you have dismissed the legitimate use of the Wikipedia Common Naming Rules and reverted back to the original Never, Never mindset we are used to in this part of Ireland. I only hope that people voting on this matter in the section above believe in compromise to let this issue finally settle as Londonderry for the county and Derry for the city.

Regards, --  RÓNÁN   "Caint / Talk"  20:19, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

I never said that it was a "pet name" if you please. I think that you are getting away from the point again. It doesn't matter how it was founded. It should matter what it is called now. Leave the rest to the history books. With our "proud" Saxon, Welsh, Scottish, and Cornish toponyms (although, I don't necessarily take pride in them, our languages may evolve any which way but it is up to the people that name it to decide whether to use Hwæsingatūn or Washington.

So now the argument is about the people wanting to change the name. Well, unfortunately we cannot do anyting about it. Again, Wikipedia describes, not prescribes. The "Londinium" argument was to counter the fact that what the name was when the city was founded is irrelevant.

Pardon, but what exactly are you insinuating that I am going with my supposed "never, never mindset". I'm afraid I you will have to clarify what that means. Reginmund 01:30, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

Well of course it muddles it even more when you consider the modern city of Derry/Londonderry was actually founded as Londonderry (Derry was a town on the opposite side of the river) by the London companies. Over time it grew to encompass what had originally been Derry but the modern city is based on and formed from that Londonderry not the Derry settlement. So technically you could say Londonderry was the original name for the city and it isn't Derry that has been renamed to Londonderry but incorporated into Londonderry.Ben W Bell talk 12:09, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

Interesting, so there's more merit to the use of "Londonderry" then I thought. Reginmund 14:18, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

So, do we have ANY valid reason not to move this page?Traditional unionist 14:54, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

YES - you need consensus. Djegan 16:30, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

ADMIN: PLEASE READ THIS POST BEFORE CLOSING: We seem to have a little problem here. Apparently, skimming the votes, about 6 or 7 of the opposers are opposing the move out of fears of edit wars. Well, I don't think that this is a valid excuse. What's to war about? If the page gets moved, the description of Derry will be changed to Londonderry. If someone comes along to change it to Derry, we will just revert it. If they continue because they are trying to prove a point, We block them for a couple hours. Simple as that. Besides the point. I really don't think that fear of POV crusaders is a valid excuse to keep the page. Reginmund 21:37, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

I've read everything here, but I am not basing this close on fear of edit wars. Dekimasuよ! 04:39, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

At this point you are just showing your (severe) desparation. Few supporters can cite anything apart from the official status of the city name as reason to move. No substantial reasons or statistics on usage were supplied for backing the move, just a handful of examples of usage. Maybe it has passed you and many other supporters of the move but the official status of a name does not guarentee it will be used. Simple fact is that their is approximatly a 2:1 in favor of retaining as is. Their is no point in moving it unless a substantial reason can be proposed. You have had a week to articulate your arguement and nothing substantial has resulted, just read through your comments and that will become very apparent. Djegan 04:31, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Londaindoire

Londaindoire is the Gaelic for Londonderry not Doire. Doire is only Gaelic for Derry. So i've included Londaindoire alongside Doire at the start as its only right the Irish for Londonderry the city's official name is stated just as it is in the Gaelic Wikipedia Doire page which if it is good enough for it there its good enough for it here. There should be no objections to this as its not politically divisive but informative. Mabuska 00:14, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

For a change! :-) 83.147.141.69 18:49, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

If it is right. Which it probably is, though Londondoire seems to be as (un)popular. A Derry City Council "Good Relations" document in Irish (same in English) uses "Londondoire" once, "Londaindoire" never, and the (genitive?) "Londaindhoire" three times. --Rumping 14:18, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

London in Irish is Londain, so i'm surprised Derry City Council spelt it London that one time. Unless of course they are trying to appease both sides by having the British spelling of London alongside the Irish spelling of Derry lol ;-) Mabuska 16:34, 11 November 2007 (UTC)

Oh Christ. I've removed that utter (gramatically incorrect) shite. The day I hear an Irish speaker say "Londaindoire" is the day that the British conquest of Ireland will be complete. 86.42.98.32 (talk) 08:16, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

Ná deán aistriú mura bhfuil Gaeilge, fiú leath-Ghaeilge agat. Also, stick to official names rather than scrupulous edits Mabuska.--Theosony (talk) 01:31, 12 February 2009 (UTC)

L'Derry

Due to the riduclous poltical corectness of Londonderry/Derry/L'Derry/That place up north west/The walled city/Foyle or whatever you wish to call it i feel the need to add L'Derry as it has now become the "standard" pc thing to say as it suposedly helps both side but ultimitly dosent at all. I am checking here before i do it. Thanks YellowSnowRecords 08:34, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

If it seems to be a bad idea, that is because it is most likely a bad idea. Just throwing that out there. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 194.80.80.114 (talk) 16:01, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

Second largest city in Northern Ireland?

This was always traditionally the case and Londonderry is indeed often called the second city but since the year 2000 it is now the third largest city in Northern Ireland after Lisburn, whose city population in the 2001 census was larger, was granted city status. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.113.48.9 (talk) 12:41, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for your input YellowSnowRecords2 08:34, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

I think you'll find the population of Lisburn and Lisburn City Council are very different. The main settlement of Lisburn has a population of 71,465, whereas the Council District which covers a much larger area than the urban area has a population of over 108,000. So by terms of population by either urban area or core area Derry is still larger than Lisburn. 15:08, 2 December 2007 (UTC)

Surely Craigavon is the second largest city, or was meant to be at least? 86.42.98.32 (talk) 03:56, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

Craigavon was planned as a Second City a long time ago. The settlement failed to develop and meet it's population quota and even now it's population of around 56,000 is nowhere near what NIRSA recognises as the population of a city (75,000 or more). 13:24, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

"Official name" in infobox

There has been a silly edit war over the entry in the infobox. I see no decent reason to have Londonderry first given that:

1. The article title is Derry, so it makes more sense to list that one first
2. The lead uses Derry first
3. It is consistent with the Scots and Irish name entries (those would need to be changed otherwise)

Please discuss this rather than have the silly edit war. I would like to hear of any explanations about why people think the above reasoning is wrong. violet/riga (t) 13:44, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

The reason most people have for Londonderry first is the fact the field in the infobox is called "Official name", not just name or common name but official name. Yes we've agreed upon using Derry as the name of the city on Wikipedia, but when it comes down to official name that is still unfortunately Londonderry. Yes life would be much simpler if they would let them officially change the name of the city to Derry, but it hasn't happened and it is still a UK city with a legal official name as shown by the courts despite common usages. Ben W Bell talk 14:21, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

I think you are placing too much weight on the name of the parameter. It had to be called something unambiguous and is the most sensible name, but it doesn't appear in the infobox itself. It is more important what the infobox looks like to the reader than the editor, and having it with Londonderry first is inconsistent with the rest of the article. Thanks for the reply. violet/riga (t) 14:27, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

I don't think it is too much weight on the parameter name. We're allowing slang now? If it's not offical name then can I change newcastle's entry to be Toon Army Town? Of course not, it's a nonsense. Plus putting Londonderry first is a good compromise given the use of Derry else where. The city's name is still Londonderry, like it or not. --Blowdart | ^talk 16:16, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

Please don't talk to me as if I actually care what the title is and what people call it. Your analogy is clearly exaggerated and I don't think it's particularly comparable. The fact is that Derry is the title of the article and is used throughout so it should also appear first in the infobox. I understand your compromise suggestion but I think that consistency trumps that. Further, as I mentioned above, if "Londonderry" does appear first then the Irish/Scots ones should echo that. violet/riga (t) 16:32, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

Alright then, lets take a more "reasonable" example; where I live now. Henley-on-Thames is the official name, except everyone calls it Henley around here. You are making an assumption that the title of the article is supposed to match the official name. Where exactly is that stated? Moreover have you simply ignored the various discussions and hissy fits around this? If you don't like the parameter name, then poll for a change to the template, not ignore it. --Blowdart | ^talk 17:10, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

You are talking about an article that already resides at the "other" name - if Henley-on-Thames were at Henley (and, after lengthy discussions, it were agreed that there it should remain) then it should "Henley" come first in the infobox. I'm sorry but I'm not going to go around trawling the many, many MOS/Naming convention pages to find where it says this - it's simply common sense. It has been decided, rightly or wrongly, that this article is named "Derry" and thus that should be the preferred term in the article. Indeed, it is the term used throughout the article, so why would we have it as second-fiddle in the infobox? I note that you claim to have consensus on this issue and have gone and continued the edit war. Sorry but too few people discussed this exact issue so you really can't play that card. I dislike pointless edit wars so I won't revert right now, but I'm astounded that you think it appropriate to have the Irish and Scots versions in the opposite order! violet/riga (t) 18:27, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

Lets just leave things be rather than turn this into a repeat of the lengthy and tiresome naming debate we have had on this article a few months ago. --  RÓNÁN   "Caint / Talk"  18:04, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

Hear hear (and I agree with user:Blowdart - it helps to keep the peace to give both variants as near parity of esteem as we can manage. --Red King (talk) 20:40, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

The article is misleading enough as it is, given that it is named erroronously, but to open it with "Derry or Londonderry" is wrong. It is Londonderry, sometimes refered to the shortened version of Derry.Traditional unionist (talk) 21:57, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

Derry isn't a shortened version of Londonderry, the prefix London was added to the name Derry.--Padraig (talk) 22:07, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

(sigh*) - To avoid repetition on queries regarding any issues, opinions, facts, or grievances with the articles names Derry, or its sister articles name County Londonderry as accepted by Wikipedia, please refer to the discussion above that took place a couple of months ago. All POV, facts etc. are clearly presented there! If we have any opinions on enhancing the informative content on the city, its culture, history or future, by all means please keep posting! --  RÓNÁN   "Caint / Talk"  18:39, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

The infobox is a disaster. It should only have the name per the article title. Two variations on each line points to confusion. Djegan (talk) 23:42, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

Which would leave the article total nonsense. The city is not called Derry. That is a verifiable fact.Traditional unionist (talk) 23:50, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

REALITY CHECK - every wikipedia poll has resulted in a landslide "Derry" vote. Where us your verifiable fact that the "city is not called Derry"??? Many people call it so Derry! Djegan (talk) 00:02, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

I agree that the infobox is a disaster, however unfortunately this will always be subject to vandalism depending on which political beliefs the vandal aligns with and thus i cannot see this change. Again we are seeing repetition of arguments by users on so-called factual decrees, yet if i can be forgiven to include one instance of repetition on my part also, I will again highlight the fact that those same people ignore facts in the Northern Ireland flags issue where they argue for the use of the "Ulster Banner" eventhough this is factually an un-official flag! --  RÓNÁN   "Caint / Talk"  15:43, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

City walls: not so unique?

The first paragraph states: "It is one of the only places in Europe not to have its defensive walls breached". I'm not clear whether "one of the only places" is supposed to mean "one of the few towns" or "the only town". There are quite a few others: e.g. Berwick-upon-Tweed; Brasov; Avila; Lucca. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ariwara (talk • contribs) 23:38, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

By all means place a factcheck on it. Djegan (talk) 00:03, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

http://www.derry.com/ SeanMack (talk) 08:30, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

Troubles?

why does this article have no mention of the troubles? are you trying to pretend it didn't happen? under famous events you have some whale but no mention of Bloody sunday? isn't that odd? are you just trying to delete it from history? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.26.99.137 (talk) 15:40, 28 February 2008 (UTC)

Look at the Derry#History section, and you will see Bloody Sunday mentioned. Indeed, there is an article on Bloody Sunday (1972). It would be inappropriate to base the article on Derry on Bloody Sunday, as there is a lot more to the city than that event. EJF (talk) 16:32, 1 March 2008 (UTC)

The history section does need expanding though because it currently ends in the 17th century (!), those images aside. I've tagged it as such. Cordless Larry (talk) 14:14, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

Call it what the official name is.

The official name is Londonderry, and the official name for the County is Co.Londonderry.

Therefore Wikipedia is not correct by calling it "Derry".

No need for a compromise, "Londonderry" for both city and county --90.241.138.28

It's Derry. Just accept it. Most people in Ireland refer to it as "Derry". It is only the unionists who call it "Londonderry". —Preceding unsigned comment added by Footyfanatic3000 (talk • contribs) 22:43, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

The consensus is that we call the city "Derry" and the county "Londonderry". This compromise is an attempt to keep a neutral point of view on the naming dispute and to prevent edit wars. It has been argued also that when the city is referred to, that most often it is referred to as "Derry" as the most common name of a city is the name that we must use at Wikipedia. Regards, EJF (talk) 23:52, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

I think that the encyclopaedia should put first coherence before "compromise". It is awfully confusing to see that the county is titled Londonderry and the city is titled Derry. One or the other should be moved. 76.167.156.93 (talk) 21:13, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

Throwing this in from an earlier discussion: We cannot say what a name should be, only what it is. 76.167.156.93 (talk) 21:20, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

Do not sully the heavenly compromise with your filthy facts! Leave this place!Traditional unionist (talk) 21:33, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

Indeed, WP is an encyclopedia, not some sort of compilation of facts!!--Counter-revolutionary (talk) 21:54, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

Groan. I can see this debate going far! While you think about the name, anyone care to make a comment on the section below? Cordless Larry (talk) 22:23, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

It just doesn't seem like there has been enough emphasis on the incoherence of two related articles with the same external emphasis on the official name. But since when are encyclopaedias supposed to put bureaucracy below coherence? 76.167.156.93 (talk) 18:01, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

I am baffled as to how anyone could be "confused" with the naming of the city and its related county within Wikipedia! IF a user is searching for Derry and types in Londonderry in wikipedia, they will be redirected to the Derry article. Similarly, if a user searches for County Londonderry and types in County Derry, they will be redirected to the County Londonderry article. Thus avoiding loss of relevance and confusion. Those of us that are hiding behind forced officiality, again need to examine why officiality can only be cherry-picked into an argument when it suits their cause. I see that all arguments against the naming compromise have been used repeatitively in above sections and we are now resorting to desperation. Please lets move on from this issue. --  RÓNÁN   "Caint / Talk"  05:48, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

Wouldn't that person be confused as to why one is at County Londonderry and another is at Derry? Any legitimate encyclopaedia wouldn't categorise them like this. Wikipedia is not benefitted for the sake of the editors but for the readers. Pick one and stick with it. 66.121.215.213 (talk) 16:10, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

Simple answer? No. This is because the person would not notice any difference in the information appearing for BOTH versions of the name. Wikipedia in this case is benefitted for ther sake of the readers for, as we seen on prior discussions of this sort (above), the term "Derry" appears more in search engines that its counterpart, therefore is widely used by its readers. As an editor i am thinking, not just about the quality of the information in a neutral sense, but what the readers associate the placename as. --  RÓNÁN   "Caint / Talk"  12:13, 9 June 2008 (UTC)

Simple refutation? Yes! Because the person wouldn't notice a difference, that would make it even more confusing. In this case, you didn't address the point above. It doesn't matter which one appears more. Stick to ONE. If you think Derry is more common, call County Londonderry County Derry. If you are thinking of the readers above the editors, you wouldn't be favouring the editors' "compromise" over the two articles' coherence. Simple point, make them consistent. 75.82.50.249 (talk) 07:01, 1 July 2008 (UTC)

County Londonderry was created during the plantation, and has only been informally called County Derry. By contrast, historians here and elsewhere have told us that a settlement named 'Derry' existed prior to the royal charter for the City of Londonderry, and, despite the official name, Derry is still in use alongside the official name, even sometimes by unionists.

However, virtually any naming convention for the articles is rational and accurate; the advantage the current consensus has over any others is that it has been accepted by a very large number of ordinary editors who were fed up with frequent edit wars, even though those editors don't use the compromise in their own daily lives, and would prefer a different name at Wikipedia. --Hroðulf (or Hrothulf) (Talk) 10:27, 1 July 2008 (UTC)

Given this new information, maybe it should be added to the article for less confusion. 71.106.182.162 (talk) 00:00, 2 July 2008 (UTC)

• Derry#Plantation
• Derry#Name

cover all I was trying to say. --Hroðulf (or Hrothulf) (Talk) 10:17, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

As I've said before the compromise is backwards. Co.Derry was there long before Londonderry was built so the county should be at Derry. Londonderry however was built with this name- it was a totally seperate town to old Derry, its just over the years they both sort of grew into each other (as was common everywhere). It was Londonderry though that was recognised as the dominant city in this and IIRC from which most of the growth happened. --Him and a dog 16:38, 9 July 2008 (UTC)

Except that it wasn't, there was never a County Derry. County Londonderry was formed from County Coleraine and bits of a couple of other counties. There was never a County Derry involved and there was never a County Derry in the history of Ireland. Unlike the town of Derry, a County Derry has never existed in the history of Ireland. Canterbury Tail talk 00:41, 10 July 2008 (UTC)

Sectarian education has a lot to answer for in terms of teaching Irish history. Try this: the counties of Ireland were an English invention. Before County Londonderry there was a smaller County Coleraine. County Laois and County Offaly were 20th century invented names. 00:22, 10 July 2008 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.154.229.255 (talk)

It really is ludicrous that nationalist POV editors have decided to entitle this article using an unofficial name. The High Court has now ruled that the name of the city is "Londonderry", FFS. Any encyclopaedia worth its salt would entitle the entry "Londonderry" and then go on to explain the dispute within the article. It seems that there is a conspiracy of nationalist editors on Wikipedia determined to get their way, regardless of the facts.Mooretwin (talk) 08:56, 25 July 2008 (UTC)

And Nationalist would point to WP:Common and even that is marginal, like all comprise, the solution end up with no one 100% happy .Please try to push POV on wiki's article Gnevin (talk) 09:35, 25 July 2008 (UTC)

Sorry, but WP:Common links to a disambiguation page. And I don't know what "please try to push POV on wiki's article" means. Could you explain what you mean in ordinary language?Mooretwin (talk) 11:41, 25 July 2008 (UTC)

I can't speak for Gnevin, but these 2 articles are relevant: Naming conventions (common names) and Naming conflict. --Hroðulf (or Hrothulf) (Talk) 13:32, 25 July 2008 (UTC)

I note one of which asks the question: "Is it the official current name of the subject? (check if the name is used in a legal context, e.g. a constitution)"Mooretwin (talk) 14:40, 25 July 2008 (UTC)

This is ludicrous, millions of people call it LA. I would bet more people say LA then Los Angeles,but we don't call it LA. A city should be called what the LEGAL name of the city is in the language of that city. Would you call it Lenningrad because the few communists left in Russia want to return to the old days? This is a classic example of Wikipedia using misinformation. You can call an apple an orange all you like, but it's STILL an APPLE 63.26.97.20 (talk) 03:53, 3 November 2008 (UTC)eric

Leninngrad was called so by an aggressor imposing their will on the populious of that city. In similar curcumstances, the name Londonderry was imposed an aggressor of the time on Derry. There was no support from the indiginous people of Derry to the name Londonderry, that was decided by people of an outside nation (at that time).

What is sad here is that some people cannot accept compromise for the greater good. Hiding behind fact when it suits their POV. I am heartened to see somewhat that this debate has moved on into more interesting topics such as the City Walls etc. however it seems a small number of people still cant seem to break away from old political POV's. --  RÓNÁN   "Caint / Talk"  10:10, 3 April 2009 (UTC)

Article structure

Does anyone else agree that the article's structure is a bit unorthodox and illogical? To have shopping and night-life as first-level headings seems a little odd to me. I'm willing to have a go at improving it, but I wanted to gather some thoughts/suggestions from other editors first. Cordless Larry (talk) 13:49, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

For example, Wikipedia:UKCITIES provides a suggested layout. Cordless Larry (talk) 13:52, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

Go for it - be bold. That link provides a great structure. Cheers SeanMack (talk) 08:18, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

OK, I've made a first attempt at this but it still needs work. Cordless Larry (talk) 13:42, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

Nice work. Great to see some actual-real-edits to the article as opposed to the usual name edit-warring! SeanMack (talk) 14:32, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

Thanks. There's still a lot to do because all I've really done is rearrange the existing text rather than change or add to it substantially, but at least it has a half-sensible structure now. Cordless Larry (talk) 15:33, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

Nice restructuring yesterday, Cordless. From all the red in the diffs, I first thought you had deleted a lot more than you had. Have you considered putting it forward for a Good Article review yet? I am no expert on the criteria, but at least the naming edit war seems to be at a low enough level now (and so quicky reverted by regulars) that I hope it would not hinder GA. The prose isn't perfect, but then that is one thing that always gets worked on hard when an article is a Featured Article Candidate. --Hroðulf (or Hrothulf) (Talk) 05:19, 14 June 2008 (UTC)

Thanks. I was worried I might have been a bit heavy-handed but there was so much trivial information there that I thought I could get away with deleting a fair amount. I hadn't thought of a GA review because I didn't think the article was anywhere near good enough. It lacks references and the governance, geography and education sections are woefully short. I can't say I'm all that familiar with the criteria though. Cordless Larry (talk) 08:31, 14 June 2008 (UTC)

You are probably right. It seems to me (from a distance) that some GA reviewers are interpreting the criteria almost as strictly as FAC. However the geography section has climate, and I don't know what more should be said about education or governance, so on paper you ought to be in with a chance. The worst you can be told is no, and get a list of things to do later. --Hroðulf (or Hrothulf) (Talk) 14:04, 14 June 2008 (UTC)

You might be right that it's worth a go to get suggestions for improving the article. I'm just a bit reticent to nominate it when I know it'll fail. The lack of references alone will sink it - look at all those citation needed tags. Cordless Larry (talk) 14:20, 14 June 2008 (UTC)

I definitely didn't mean go for it today. It is looking a lot closer than it did last week, but disputed facts are a guaranteed GA fail. --Hroðulf (or Hrothulf) (Talk) 19:38, 14 June 2008 (UTC)

I've reffed some statements from the excellent Discover Derry by historian Brian Lacey. I also removed some of the overdone Donegal demographic stuff. If it is to go back in - it needs to have references I'm afraid. Some other stuff may need to go to... SeanMack (talk) 08:01, 15 June 2008 (UTC)

Good work. Hopefully with a bit of effort from all of us, we can get this to a reasonable standard and then nominate it for GA. Cordless Larry (talk) 13:39, 15 June 2008 (UTC)

Song lyrics

Four line quotations from speeches are common on Wikipedia, but not of songs, especially without commentary. However I thing they are great and would also add There is a green hill far away. How do you think we should justify them to a good article reviewer? --Hroðulf (or Hrothulf) (Talk)

Do we know if any other geography articles have this kind of section? Cordless Larry (talk) 13:40, 15 June 2008 (UTC)

I've moved the bloody sunday ones to that article. I think they have relevance to the articles and like them there - but if there is a copyright issue I guess they would either have to go - or articles about the songs would need to be linked to (assuming they exist...) SeanMack (talk) 14:33, 15 June 2008 (UTC)

Small excerpts of copyrighted text seem to be acceptable at English Wikipedia, as fair use / fair dealing. But I don't know if this is just because people like quotations, or if there is a policy/guideline to support this. The Sash, as public domain, is fair game, but would be somewhat provocative (I daren't guess who it would provoke) if there on its own, and the remaining question is whether people feel that a 40 word song quote is encyclopaedic. I don't want to light another forest fire so soon after my last one, but if no-one answers here after a few days, I will ask at the help desk. --Hroðulf (or Hrothulf) (Talk) 15:12, 15 June 2008 (UTC)

Who's the nark that deleted the Holy Shop image?

I bet he wears a bow tie. —Preceding unsigned comment added by NotThatWay (talk • contribs) 04:08, 18 April 2008 (UTC)

References

In an attempt to move this article closer to good article status, it could do with some more references. I've tagged a few sections that are lacking them, and any help would be appreciated. Cordless Larry (talk) 21:28, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

John Whyte

Barryob added a reference to substantiate the removal of "perceived" from the sentence about discrimination. The below is my response: Using Whyte as a source for Government discrimination isn't quite wrong, but is a gross simplification. "The most serious charge against the Northern Ireland government is not that it was directly responsible for widespread discrimination, but that it allowed discrimination on such a scale over a substantial segment of Northern Ireland. " Whyte is not an adequate source for what you claim it to be. Traditional unionist (talk) 20:16, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

Can you change the sentence accordingly then? Cordless Larry (talk) 21:18, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

Well I think it was fine the way it was, before an annon changed it and Barry backed it up with an inappropriate source! Before I do anything could you take a look Larry?Traditional unionist (talk) 21:26, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

Just to make sure we're talking about the same thing, you mean the sentence that currently reads "Catholics were discriminated against under Unionist government in Northern Ireland, both politically and economically", right? Cordless Larry (talk) 21:51, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

yes, until a couple of days ago that read something like Catholics perceived that they were.....Traditional unionist (talk) 22:14, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

Surely the point of the Whyte quote isn't that the discrimination was perceived, but rather that is wasn't necessarily the fault of the Unionist government? Cordless Larry (talk) 22:45, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

Perhaps, either way the sentence as it is fails WP:V.Traditional unionist (talk) 10:22, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

OK, so how do we proceed? First, it may be useful to quote Whyte at greater length:

"The unionist government must bear its share of responsibility. It put through the original gerrymander which underpinned so many of the subsequent malpractices, and then, despite repeated protests, did nothing to stop those malpractices continuing The most serious charge against the Northern Ireland government is not that it was directly responsible for widespread discrimination, but that it allowed discrimination on such a scale over a substantial segment of Northern Ireland".

For me, that establishes that (a) there was discrimination against Catholics; (b) the government was involved in gerrymandering; but that (c) it was not responsible for the discrimination, but rather failed to stop it. Perhaps we could reword the sentence to reflect all of this? Cordless Larry (talk) 16:14, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

Since there's been no reply, I'm taking the initiative and attempting a solution. I'm going to quote directly from Whyte. Cordless Larry (talk) 22:01, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

Londaindhoire

I've twice removed the Irish Londaindhoire from the introduction but I've now realised that it's in the infobox too. Given that there are only 9 Google search results for this version of the name (most of them being a result of this article), is it wise to include it? Cordless Larry (talk) 23:17, 23 August 2008 (UTC)

It should be removed--it appears to be the same person inserting this.Hohenloh (talk) 05:28, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

I agree, if there's only 9 searches, remove it - there's not enough information to source it. I'm going to help on the sources by the way :). The Helpful One ^(Review) 18:40, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

Great, thanks for the help. Cordless Larry (talk) 21:50, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

You would find 52 for the nominative Londaindoire [25] See #Londaindoire above. --Rumping (talk) 10:27, 3 September 2008 (UTC)

That's still not very many but I'm not really sure what would constitute notability. Cordless Larry (talk) 22:29, 4 September 2008 (UTC)

I must admit I'm deeply sadden by your arrogance towards any rendering of the name Londonderry fully into the Irish langauge. I believe it would have help promote the Irish Langauge to the unionist community, showing them that this langauage also respect there right to use the name of 'Londonderry' instead of 'Derry' if they so wish. Yes, I will admit there are many how are unsure if the spelling 'Londaindoire' is correct, due to the complicated rules of written Irish compared with written English. But there is no need to discrimated against people on this issue. I had hope that this would have had a more positive outcome but it seem that either the operators of this site or the people that visit it are determind to allow blind sectarianism run riot: Northern Ireland has moved on! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.147.42.35 (talk) 01:04, 28 September 2008 (UTC)

You can keep your joke of a language ulster scots. In Ireland it is called Derry and in the ancient Gaelic language it is called Doire. Why should this be anglasised for the unioinist community. Also there is no need to troll every GAA team and catholic town changing the county to londonderry. They are both acceptible names for the county. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.70.229.0 (talk) 21:55, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

Absolute rubbish, if it wasn't for the English and the Scots settlers the ancient Irish would still be living in mud huts in the Bogside! There wouldn't be a gracious city called Londonderry, just some shanty town like Buncrana or Letterkenny to take some local Irish Republican examples! --78.33.101.58 (talk) 16:57, 9 April 2009 (UTC)

No I'm afraid what you're saying is absolute rubbish. What happens when you drive over the border from the Republic to the North? The answer is you go from a nice, wide road to a narrow road with lots of dangerous bends. A classic example is on the N2/A5 road between Dublin and Derry. NI is a neglected part of the UK. The quality of housing is also better in the Republic, with more people actually owning their homes. And Letterkenny isn't a "shanty town", as you claim. Footyfanatic3000 (talk) 20:31, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

You can argue as much as you like but the official name is LONDONDERRY and that is good enough for me. The Nationalists and Republicans in Londonderry City Council tried to change it by reference to the Northern Ireland High Court in 2006. Fortunately, the Court saw sense and ruled against the council and their, what is really a petty name change.

The city is Londonderry and has been since the early 17th century and long may it be so whatever anyone else sees fit to call it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by The Maiden City (talk • contribs) 17:26, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

I am rather suprised how edgey some people are when it comes to the name of this city, and quite frankly I find it rather unnessecary to argue over the name of Northern Ireland's second city. This rubbish posted about if Londonderry is fully written in irish as 'Londandoire' would be a 'British Victory' is complete and utter nonsense. Those that wish to demise one of the four langauges of Northern Ireland (alongside English, Ulster Scots, and N.I. Sign Langauge) rather than to promote it is the bigger fool. This is republican proganda and I cant believe after forty years of genocide across Northern Ireland they wish to pledle such sectarian rubbish. While the so called leaders of Republicanism and Nationalism are trying to build a stable way of life here for are country, the grass roots see their sole prupose to bring Northern Ireland back to the days of greef and misery. I am a Northern Irish citizen of the United Kingdom and I have enshrined in the law of two nation states and a regional assembly the right to include both the british and irish asspect into my cultural idenity as a citizen of Northern Ireland/Tuaisceart Éireann/Norlin Airlann. It is time for once in this country dark history to look forward and seek a better day our six counties of this wonderful province I call "Ulster, My Home!" —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.156.235.23 (talk) 01:15, 2 January 2009 (UTC)

Londonderry!

Firstly, to pre-quash the Republican Retaliation for this, I would like to point out that i believe as Londonderry has a majority Republican population, it should be part of the Republic of Ireland. But regardless of this, the name of the city is Londonderry, and until this is subsiquently officially changed; wikipedia should go by the official name. If wikipedia is going to start using crazed, none official names, then why not rename the Falkland Islands article 'Islas Malvinas' and Istanbul 'Constantinople'. This is a joke. Why is Wikipedia taking the side of the Republicans in all this and at the same time, doing so against the offical name! Nonsense. Absolute Nonsense. (Umbongo91 (talk) 20:06, 16 December 2008 (UTC))

I'd have to agree.
For another angle on why: Calcutta is Kolkata and Bombay is Mumbai- in the case of Bombay the locals call their city Bombay but the official name is Mumbai...--Him and a dog 13:19, 8 January 2009 (UTC)

Actually, it is a majority Nationalist population, NOT Republican! ...and BTW not so many of them would want to come under the auspices of the Irish Republican Government...a bit like having their cake and eating it !! --78.33.101.58 (talk) 14:33, 9 April 2009 (UTC)

Broken song references section

Can anyone work out why the attributions for the bottom two sets of song lyrics in the references in popular music section aren't displaying? Cordless Larry (talk) 11:05, 23 December 2008 (UTC)

Not sure why the "small" tags seemed to break it - but I changed them to ref tags and it's now OK. SeanMack (talk) 07:24, 26 December 2008 (UTC)

Thanks. Cordless Larry (talk) 11:23, 26 December 2008 (UTC)

Another suggestion

Why not just have the article called "Derry / Londonderry" and have redirects to it from "Derry" and "Londonderry". MrMarmite (talk) 15:19, 9 January 2009 (UTC)

Mainly because there is no such place as Derry / Londonderry. But seeing as there is no such place in Ireland as Derry, facts don't seem to matter much here in any case.Traditional unionist (talk) 15:21, 9 January 2009 (UTC)

Traditional Unionist, do you do anything constructive on Wiki or just drop random inflamatory posts? Try going into the free state and looking for a sign for Derry, then assess wether there is anywhere in Ireland called Derry! --193.61.159.26 (talk) 20:12, 9 January 2009 (UTC)

There is much to be said for the sign posting in the Free State as you call it...NOT! .....we all know why the Irish Republic chose to put Derry on their sign posts, much the same way the Northern Ireland authorities chose not to signpost the way to EIRE! --78.33.101.58 (talk) 14:42, 9 April 2009 (UTC)

This couldn't be done due to the way the wiki software works. Derry/Londonderry would have Londonderry as a subsection of Derry. A similar compromise was tried with the Sega megadrive (called the Genesis in the US) and this issue arose.--Him and a dog 17:49, 7 February 2009 (UTC)

Origin of Coat of Arms

This explanation included in the possible origins of the coat of arms seems rather suspect:

A new claim has recently discovered a new possible explanation for the shield of arms. There is a popular legend that a man in the 13th century of the Slocum clan led a charge against foreign invaders. In this charge, 300 brave Irish Catholics from Derry died trying to uphold their firm belief in the universitality of their ideals. The legend declares that the final death cry of these brave young men was, "Forever shall we live in truth! That is our Victory!"

In particular the bit that mentions "300 brave Irish Catholics" sounds silly when all of Western Europe was catholic at this time, who exactly were they fighting against. Sounds like something to wind certain people up I'd say.

Since no one seems to be bothered I'll just remove it.

Name, all read

This is ludacris. The High Court has ruled the City to be called 'Londonderry', the city charter clearly states 'Londonderry', the name of the city is 'Londonderry'.

On accuweather, they call the city 'Derry, Ireland', and I am beginning to think that American institutions are biased towards the Republican Community! Regardless of Religion, Politics, What ever, the city only has one official name; 'Londonderry'

The article being called Derry is a joke, 'Derry' is a none-official name not legally recognised by anyone but the dissident Sinn Féin group and the IRA.

Wikipedia stands to simply represent the facts, what is right, and seeing how the Istanbul argument is NOT called Constantinople, and Beijing is NOT called Peking, and Mumbai is NOT called Bombay, Londonderry should NOT be called Derry.

All those who support this please state below with a comment. This MUST be changed —Preceding unsigned comment added by Umbongo91 (talk • contribs) 21:36, 9 February 2009 (UTC)

Whether or not you think it is ludicrous (personally, I agree with you, but that is immaterial), we have a consensus. Yes, consensus can change, but be that as it may, this consensus is logical, and Wikipedia is not supposed to be a political discussion board. Can we just forget this argument and get on with writing an encyclopedia? Jake the Editor Man _(talk) 19:41, 18 February 2009 (UTC)

The consensus agreement is documented here: Wikipedia:Manual of Style (Ireland-related articles)#Derry/Londonderry. For what it is worth. the Port of Londonderry is still the Port of Londonderry. --Red King (talk) 01:16, 19 February 2009 (UTC)

Perhaps we should tweak it to say "(London) Derry", or is this a bad idea? OTOH, maybe it's just fine the way it is... 204.52.215.107 (talk) 04:47, 26 February 2009 (UTC)

"'Derry' is a none-official name not legally recognised by anyone but the dissident Sinn Féin group and the IRA." Apart from the Republic of Ireland government... --193.61.159.26 (talk) 02:40, 14 March 2009 (UTC)

The name Derry is basically a nickname for the City. Everyone knows that its proper title is Londonderry but many of us use the term Derry in speech being somewhat easier to say. In all official written text however the proper name of the city is Londonderry.

The currently named Derry City Council changed its name from Londonderry City Council some years ago as an act of political opportunism and an appeasement to Republican voters.

Last remaining city in the where to be surrounded by defensive walls?

The article currently states that Derry is the "last remaining city in the British Isles to be surrounded by defensive walls". This is supported by the second citation [26] (an article in the Sydney Morning Herald), while the other citation at the same place in the article [27] (from the University of Ulster) says "It is the only remaining completely walled city in Ireland". Should the article say Ireland or the British Isles? York and Chester have walls, but I'm not sure of the "completeness".

I ask as I noticed the issue when dealing with vandalism from 78.148.165.124. His other changes are wrong and not supported by the citations, but this one at least deserves discussion. srushe (talk) 19:31, 22 March 2009 (UTC)

York and Chester are complete! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.150.164.198 (talk) 21:28, 22 March 2009 (UTC)

I'd suggest you find a source for the completeness of York and/or Chester and then see what happens. Don't keep making the change before that and wait for it to be discussed here first. Granted, you may find yourself blocked before then due to the persistence of your efforts already. srushe (talk) 21:32, 22 March 2009 (UTC)

You can't block me - like all talk talk users my IP address is dynamic! Anyway who do you think you are to censor my contributions! Look up Chester in wikipedia and see that its walls are complete therefore invalidating the use of the term "British Isles" in the offending paragraph which has therefore only be used for purposes of political propaganda in the context of the Northern Irish dispute. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.150.164.198 (talk) 21:37, 22 March 2009 (UTC)

The Chester article does not say the walls are complete. O Fenian (talk) 21:45, 22 March 2009 (UTC)

The article about Chester's walls does. They are broken only to allow an access road, same as Derry's walls. You're not from Derry are you? Nor Chester by the sounds of things. Oh well at least we're not fighting over the city name ........ —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.150.164.198 (talk) 21:48, 22 March 2009 (UTC)

The Chester article has a sourced statement that the walls are incomplete. British Isles are here to stay, whether you like it or not. O Fenian (talk) 21:51, 22 March 2009 (UTC)

Chester City Council [28] claim that "Chester's Walls form the most complete circuit of walls in Britain" so it's may be wroth changing that in the page. The other changes you're making however, for example to the population figures, still need to be discussed rather than just made. srushe (talk) 21:50, 22 March 2009 (UTC)

Derry's are complete. O Fenian (talk) 21:51, 22 March 2009 (UTC)

Derry's are complete the same way Chester's are. Strictly speaking neither city has complete walls as both have access roads breaching the walls to allow access for Heavy Goods vehicles, in Derry's case at Linenhall Street. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.150.164.198 (talk) 21:55, 22 March 2009 (UTC)

Much as I dislike the way 78.150.164.198 is approaching his various changes (and regardless of how much I disagree with his other attempted changes), I think this one may have merit. The Chester City Council page indicates that the Chester Walls are the most complete in Britain, and the University of Ulster pages only claim that the Derry Walls are the most complete in Ireland. I would change the page to say Ireland in that particular instance. srushe (talk) 22:01, 22 March 2009 (UTC)

Any other references? Google books, etc? --HighKing (talk) 13:42, 23 March 2009 (UTC)

Please read the sources. The University of Ulster does not say "most complete", it says complete as do the other sources. "Complete" means exactly that, "most complete" means "not complete". O Fenian (talk) 17:19, 23 March 2009 (UTC)

I dont see much wrong with the way 7.150.164... has edited a page. Wikipedia is all about editing, and sometimes people disagree. He has in fact now been proven to have been right when OFenian has had nothing to back his argument other than "British Isles are here to stay, whether you like it or not" showing his colours so to speak. Certainly casts a dark cloud over his motives. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.149.181.167 (talk) 17:01, 23 March 2009 (UTC)

No, he has been proven wrong as are you. Chester's are not complete according to sources, Derry's are. If you want more sources try Adventure Guide to Ireland (ISBN 978-1588433671), or the official Derry tourist website. O Fenian (talk) 17:19, 23 March 2009 (UTC)

Chester's City walls are complete. View the map on page 13 (7 of 12): http://www.chester.gov.uk/PDF/20081013Chester_Attractions_Booklet.pdf —Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.240.146.216 (talk) 18:44, 23 March 2009 (UTC)

Chester's walls are not complete, there is a gap in the SW section. I don't see anything wrong with saying in Ireland, though if it is possible to reference a larger geographical area then it's better (sounds more impressive that way.) Canterbury Tail talk 19:08, 23 March 2009 (UTC)

Derry's walls have a gap at Linenhall street between the Richmond Centre and Foyleside. Therefore Derry's walls are not complete either. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.240.146.216 (talk) 19:38, 23 March 2009 (UTC)

Perhaps Derry's wall always had a gap at Linenhall Street, whereas the wall in Chester was knocked down in the SW section? And so the "completeness" of the wall doesn't refer to a 360 degree circuit of completeness, but rather that all of the original parts of Derry's wall still stand? I don't know though - just a suggestion? Anyone know? --HighKing (talk) 18:35, 24 March 2009 (UTC)

Derry withstood a siege for 105 days during which 8000 inhabitants died inside the walls until Dutch and English forces were able to end the siege by Irish, French and Spanish soldiers. Trust me, if there had have been a gap in the walls the siege wouldn't have lasted 105 minutes! No, Derry's walls are complete just the same way as Chester's and vice versa. The insistence on the use of the term "British Isles" in the offending sentence is therefore political rather than factual. Indeed it is incorrect and needs corrected or rewritten. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.144.224.145 (talk) 16:56, 25 March 2009 (UTC)

That is all well and good, but there are reliable sources that say Derry's are complete, three of them using the term British Isles, and there are reliable sources that say Chester's are not complete. In contrast, we have the xenophobic anti-British ranting of an IP editor that he is right and all the sources are wrong. I cannot see this going anywhere fast.. O Fenian (talk) 17:56, 25 March 2009 (UTC)

There is no doubt that Derry's walls are complete but there is also no doubt that Chester's are also complete. Check out Chester city council's website and tourist literature and checkout the wikipedia Chester_city_walls article. Derry's walls being complete is not mutually exclusive to Chester's walls being complete but using the term "British Isles" does make the claim mutually exclusive, therefore if Chester's are complete the claim cannot stand. Q.E.D. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.144.152.92 (talk) 13:48, 26 March 2009 (UTC)

In fairness to the Anon IP editor, he has a point. But editors must realize that "Truth, Light and Justice" have no place on Wikipedia - it all comes down to reliable sources. And as O Fenian states above, there *are* references that state that Derry's are complete and use the term British Isles. It's not up to Wikipedia to say "They're wrong". Instead, *if* other sources exist that state something different, then we can rephrase the article. Unfortunately, the sources provided by the anon IP editor do not contradict the current phrasing... So case closed unless more sources are found... --HighKing (talk) 19:13, 26 March 2009 (UTC)

Could someone in Derry right now go take a photo of the road through the walls sometime soon? That should solve this. This is a really strange and silly argument going on.--Him and a dog 18:42, 27 March 2009 (UTC)

"Strange and silly argument"? This is the city where we cannot even agree it's name! This argument is almost intellectual by comparison.....

References

Can someone list the references here that are being disputed? The article lists one - are there more? - Travel article in Sydney Morning Herald which in fairness is not the best source for the claim being made. But I'm sure there were better ones? --HighKing (talk) 19:34, 27 March 2009 (UTC)

Adventure Guide to Ireland (ISBN 978-1588433671) and the official Derry tourist website. O Fenian (talk) 20:26, 27 March 2009 (UTC)

Chester Reference:

http://www.chester.gov.uk/PDF/20081013Chester_Attractions_Booklet.pdf

Chester City Council website: "The short section of Castle Drive in front of this building is the only true break in the circuit of walls - which were demolished in 1901 as part of the layout of Castle Drive." [29] —Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.242.176.48 (talk) 20:43, 27 March 2009 (UTC)

Or alternately, Chester's City Walls form virtually a complete, "virtually complete" means not complete. This meta-analysis of sources should cease. O Fenian (talk) 20:58, 27 March 2009 (UTC)

Well we can go back to the fact the Derry's walls are not complete either ..... However what part of the previous statement that part of Chester's walls were demolished in 1901 didn't you understand? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.242.176.48 (talk) 21:05, 27 March 2009 (UTC)

Except we have reliable sources that Derry's are complete and Chester's are not, and the only thing contradicting them is you. O Fenian (talk) 21:29, 27 March 2009 (UTC)

Whar reliable source is there saying that Derry's walls are complete? We have a CLAIM to say they are possibly the MOST complete ("most complete" and "complete" are very different) however anyone who has ever visited the city would know they didn't need a grappling hook to traverse Linenhall Street when passing between our two shopping centres! The walls are not complete, just like Chester's are not complete. (For example: My father has the MOST COMPLETE head of hair of all his brothers - my father does not have a COMPLETE head of hair!) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.149.181.167 (talk) 11:46, 6 May 2009 (UTC)

Conclusion

Chester's walls are not complete. "The short section of Castle Drive in front of this building is the only true break in the circuit of walls - which were demolished in 1901 as part of the layout of Castle Drive." Source: Chester City Council website [30]

However Conwy Town Walls are "completely intact" and are also a Unesco World Heritage Site. http://www.visitconwytown.co.uk/

Conwy Town Walls are not city walls, as the name suggests.. O Fenian (talk) 21:33, 27 March 2009 (UTC)

Now you are clutching at straws...... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.242.176.48 (talk) 22:46, 27 March 2009 (UTC)

How could the walls of a town contradict the sentence "Derry is the last remaining city in the British Isles"? Towns are not cities are they? O Fenian (talk) 22:52, 27 March 2009 (UTC)

Just because Chester specifically admits a break and Derry does not doesn't make it so. Anyone who has been to Londonderry can tell you quite clearly that part of the wall has been knocked down. I'd really suggest as a conclusion some definate proof be found- someone should go and take a picture of the gap in the walls. Less good, if no one is in Derry, is emailing the council about it. I'm sure they wouldn't lie.--Him and a dog 11:17, 28 March 2009 (UTC)

Here is a map of the city- http://www.wesleyjohnston.com/users/ireland/maps/towns/derry.gif . Look in the bottom right of the map. It clearly says 'modern breach'. Thats where the main access road goes. As you yourselves say nearly complete is not the same as complete. If someone could dig up a map from a more reputable site than ireland story that should be enough to prove it too.--Him and a dog 11:27, 28 March 2009 (UTC)

Let's ask the official Derry tourist website, who say "Derry...is the only remaining completely walled city in the British Isles". O Fenian (talk) 11:23, 28 March 2009 (UTC)

Go on them. Ask them. If you don't I may myself later (though no reply will come until next week most likely)--Him and a dog 11:27, 28 March 2009 (UTC)

Why do I need to ask them? I already know the answer, reliable sources tell me it. Your original research or opinion of the walls are not going in the article. And if you really want to know what the council say, they say the walls are intact. O Fenian (talk) 11:33, 28 March 2009 (UTC)

Its not original research; Its fact that can clearly be seen as light of day and it will be going into the article. Where do you live? Have you ever been to Derry? One poorly written page does not overwrite fact, that last link you posted doesn't even say they form a complete circuit. That is not what intact means.
I think you're getting confused here between history and the modern situation. Londonderry's walls were never breached and survived into modern times with no holes- true. That today they haven't decided of their own free will to knock a hole in them for access- untrue.--Him and a dog 13:20, 28 March 2009 (UTC)

Your own opinions are not relevant, only what reliable sources say. Several reliable sources state that Derry's are the only complete city walls in the British Isles, and reliable sources also say that Chester's are not complete, despite what the IP says. Do you have any reliable sources, or are you just wasting your time and everyone elses? O Fenian (talk) 14:30, 28 March 2009 (UTC)

Chester's walls are not complete as stated by the Chester City Council website: A section was demolished in 1901. However Conwy's walls are completely intact.[31] The debate has moved on: it is no longer Derry versus Chester because Derry would seem to be more complete though neither is totally complete. But Derry would seem to be less complete than Conwy. Therefore "Conwy is the most complete set of walls in the British Isles". —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.144.183.51 (talk) 14:45, 28 March 2009 (UTC)

Northern Ireland Government website states "The city is the only remaining completely walled city in Ireland"[32]. I think given the fact that Conwy is undeniably complete that this is as far as the claims for Derry can go. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.144.183.51 (talk) 14:54, 28 March 2009 (UTC)

Conwy is not a city, it is a town. The sentence refers to cities. Conwy is therefore not relevant. O Fenian (talk) 15:05, 28 March 2009 (UTC)

Thats a bit weasel wordy.--Him and a dog 17:28, 31 March 2009 (UTC)

Heres some more proof: clicky clicky. I couldn't put the marker right on the breech but its just north of there. Market street runs across the inside of the wall then newmarket street clearly goes through a hole in it. I've wrote to the council too but no word from them yet.--Him and a dog 17:47, 31 March 2009 (UTC)

Your opinion of a primary source is not relevant. If any sources have compared Conwy's town walls to Derry's city walls please provide them, as it is an analytical claim requiring sources. O Fenian (talk) 18:51, 31 March 2009 (UTC)

Censorship and Wikipedia

Wikipedia would have you believe there is no censorship but there clearly is by trying to ban people's IP addresses and disabling editing of articles:

VirtualSteve censored this article on 23rd March 2009. Deacon of Pndapetzim has attempted to censor this article on 30th March 2009. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.241.28.35 (talk) 17:32, 30 March 2009 (UTC)

Deacon of Pndapetzim: You haven't protected Derry, you've censored it! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.144.117.89 (talk) 17:40, 30 March 2009 (UTC)

Protected

I've fully protected this page due to the edit warring. Please discuss fully on the talk pages. Canterbury Tail talk 19:09, 31 March 2009 (UTC)

Fact 1: Conwy's Walls are "completely intact" and are also a Unesco World Heritage Site.[33]

Fact 2: If fact 1 is correct then the statement that "Derry's walls are the most complete in the British Isles" cannot be correct and so must be removed or changed to "most complete in Ireland" or reworded or something. But it cannot remain unchanged purporting to be fact.

Fact 1: The article says "Derry is the last remaining city in the British Isles to be completely surrounded by defensive walls"

Fact 2: Conwy is a town not a city.

Therefore it is not relevant. O Fenian (talk) 21:30, 31 March 2009 (UTC)

That is pendantic nonsense. The difference between town walls and city walls would be lost on anyone who didn't read your particular definition and therefore would give an erroneous impression.

In the absence of any common ground, you and I will have to step aside and let others adjudicate on this issue. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.25.201.41 (talk) 21:38, 31 March 2009 (UTC)

There's quite a difference between a town and a city. Your anti-British Isles crusade has gone far enough, please stop disrupting Wikipedia to make a point. O Fenian (talk) 21:46, 31 March 2009 (UTC)

I'd like to add that Wikipedia relies and depends on referencable sources for articles. So far, no sources have been produced that directly contradicts the statement used in the article. If a source can be found, then we'll have something to discuss. But until then, there's no reason to change the article. --HighKing (talk) 23:51, 31 March 2009 (UTC)

Blimey. You're really opposed to all change in the article aren't you?
As I've said- yes, Conwy isn't a city, its a town. But to pretend it doesn't exist just because of that is very weasel worded. Its really not much of a stretch to include Conwy as a minor note and make clear that as a town it 'doesn't count' in the best city walls stakes.
As far as the main topic is concerned I've yet to see any reliable sources definatly state in context that the walls are 100% complete and no hole exists- which anyone with any experience with Derry knows it does. Not that it should matter. This really is the most trivial revert war ever you've got going here.--Him and a dog 08:51, 1 April 2009 (UTC)

Nobody is arguing that Conwy is a town. But so far, nobody has come up with any references that states that Derry's walls are not the only complete walls in the British Isles. References. It's not that difficult a concept to grasp.... So far, we've a reference, reputable, that states that they are. There's no point in debating whether the reference is right or wrong unless you can show, through references, that there's either another city with complete walls, or that the walls aren't complete. References. Get it? --HighKing (talk) 14:11, 1 April 2009 (UTC)

And which reference would this be? I've yet to see a good reference that Derry's walls are 100% complete. I'll believe they are the most intact in the British isles (I've never been to Chester) but 100% intact? No. And you have no references which definately state this. I meanwhile have references that they are not. Truth is on my side.--Him and a dog 14:39, 1 April 2009 (UTC)

More proof

So I wrote to Derry council for verification of what I saw when I was in Derry. I'd be hapy to forward this email to anyone and you're welcome to check up on it yourself.

Dear >my real name<

You are correct. There is a break in the wals to allow road access coming from Orchard Street to Newmarket street and the walls then resume along the side of the Millennium Forum. Regards

Margaret Edwards

Derry City Council Heritage & Museum Service

---

Original Message-----

From: Paul Irwin Sent: 01 April 2009 09:34 To: Margaret Edwards Subject: FW: Feedback Form

Hi Margaret,

the following email has been received through the Councils website and has been forwarded for your attention/information.

regards,

Paul

---

Original Message-----

From: Feedback [34] Sent: Tuesday, March 31, 2009 6:51 PM To: Paul Irwin Subject: Feedback Form

The following is a Comment from the Derry City Council website.

Full Name :: >>nom<< Email Address:: >mine removed< Department:: City Marketing Comment:: Hello, I'm wondering if you can solve a minor dispute for me with regards to Derry city walls. I'm certain that on Newmarket Street there exists a (modern) gap in the walls to allow for heavy goods access. Someone else however is certain that the walls to this day remain 100% complete. Which of us is correct?

--Him and a dog 14:33, 1 April 2009 (UTC)

We already know that, that's not the point of dispute. It's over whether it is the most complete or not. I suppose longest may be able to be sourced which would be better than the nebulous "most complete." Canterbury Tail talk 14:58, 1 April 2009 (UTC)

TThats not the dispute they have with me. --Him and a dog 16:35, 1 April 2009 (UTC)

Where is the proof? All I see is original research. O Fenian (talk) 15:37, 1 April 2009 (UTC)

Oh please. That is so not what the no original research rule refers to. EVERYTHING put in every wiki article is original research by your definition. Its the word of the council. Given nothing that definatly says something contray I'd take it.--Him and a dog 16:35, 1 April 2009 (UTC)

Where is the reliable published source then? Come on, where is it? Posts on talk pages that purportedly contain emails are not reliable sources. O Fenian (talk) 17:22, 1 April 2009 (UTC)

Give me your address and I'll forward it to you.--Him and a dog 18:19, 1 April 2009 (UTC)

That does not answer the questions. O Fenian (talk) 18:31, 1 April 2009 (UTC)

It would.--Him and a dog 21:23, 1 April 2009 (UTC)

Sorry, are you actually speaking English? A private email to you is not a reliable published source. O Fenian (talk

Wikipedia:Use common sense. It quite clearly is a valid source. --Him and a dog 21:38, 1 April 2009 (UTC)

Why are you linking to an "information" page when you should link to policy pages? Wikipedia:Verifiability and Wikipedia:No original research are the policies, and there is no way a private email to Jonny Nobody is a reliable published source. O Fenian (talk) 21:42, 1 April 2009 (UTC)

I emailed Derry council through one of the pages you are quoting as the high gospel of truth. It is not nobody and it is not private, I'll pass it along to you just fine. You want a policy? Wikipedia:Ignore all rules. If a dozen sources say the sky is green then that does not make it so. The trouble here is you're getting confused about what rules are designed for. This is not a academic issue of an edit, it is a simple fact about the city that anyone who has any knowledge about could tell you. Yes, this isn't a source that would hold up in a academic article (such sources likely do exist in the back quarters of the council offices from when they made the modifications though finding them would be a task far too large for such a trivial issue. Especially since I'm not in Ireland these days and doubt such records are open to the public to go roaming through them) however nor is anything you have presented. I challenge you. Give me a source that the walls are 100% complete. That Newmarket Street stops abrubtly at the wall. Do this now and I'll pay you a million euros. Short of the council deciding to rebuild the missing segment of wall however I very much doubt you will have any success. --Him and a dog 21:54, 1 April 2009 (UTC)

Your private email inbox is not a reliable published source. There are four reliable sources, like it or lump it. O Fenian (talk) 21:57, 1 April 2009 (UTC)

(outdent)I asked for additional references some time ago, and none have been forthcoming. I agree that the article should be changed to quote the reliable source - that is the University of Ulster website which states that the walls are the only remaining completely walled city in Ireland and one of the finest examples of a walled city in Europe today. The second reference from the Sydney Morning Herald is not a reliable source since the Travel article is refering to a 2nd hand conversation, without quoting. That is what the references that we have produced to date state, and that is all that can be supported in the article. --HighKing (talk) 21:27, 1 April 2009 (UTC)

You have to examine sources in context. That article is a fluff piece on a topic that is nothing to do will the walls, not a scientifically valid article about the walls. As such that the walls are not 100% complete but 99.99% complete is enough to say they are complete for the purposes of that little article. The walls are quite an irrelevancy to them there so they aren't going to go into details and say "yeah...ok. There is a hole in the walls. They aren't actually 100%". The only source that can be accepted here is something that definatly states the walls are 100% intact. Present me with such a source and I will gladly drop this and agree that my eyes and the word of Derry council is wrong. In lieu of any proper sources to the contrary this is a clear case of use common sense.--Him and a dog 21:36, 1 April 2009 (UTC)

Information pages do not take precedence over policy. O Fenian (talk) 21:45, 1 April 2009 (UTC)

I provided two additional reliable sources. O Fenian (talk) 21:30, 1 April 2009 (UTC)

which are?--Him and a dog 21:36, 1 April 2009 (UTC)

Try reading the page, it helps. O Fenian (talk) 21:37, 1 April 2009 (UTC)

Don't get snarky with me. So you're referring to the 'sources' you've already posted. They don't do what they need to.--Him and a dog 21:40, 1 April 2009 (UTC)

They do if you bother to read them. You will be able to tell me what they say if you have won't you? Any time you are ready? O Fenian (talk) 21:44, 1 April 2009 (UTC)

I'm guessing you never went to university? You should learn about what makes a source useful and when when it is verifiable.--Him and a dog 21:54, 1 April 2009 (UTC)

So you haven't read them at all then? Either admit it, or tell me exactly what they say and whey they aren't verifiable. O Fenian (talk) 21:57, 1 April 2009 (UTC)

Hi, the article currently has two references - one from the University of Ulster which is acceptable, and one which is a travel article for a Sydney newspaper which is not acceptable because the journalist is not a first hand authoritative source. The first reference states most complete in Ireland and this is what the article should say. Have I missed any other references? If not, can we agree to change the article to reflect the reliable references provided? --HighKing (talk) 23:47, 1 April 2009 (UTC)

Even if Derry's walls were 100% complete, they wouldn't be more complete than Conwy's which are 100% complete and therefore to claim they are the most complete in the British Isles is patently wrong. At most they are only equally complete therefore Conwy's are the most complete in Britain and Derry's are the most complete in Ireland. Do you, O Fenian accept that Conwy's are complete? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.148.127.140 (talk) 16:00, 2 April 2009 (UTC)

With more experience, you'll learn that repeating the same argument over and over rarely works on Wikipedia, and accuracy of statements is important. Taking a look at the statement in the article: Derry is the last remaining city in the British Isles to be completely surrounded by defensive walls, and has the most complete series of city walls in the islands., the first question to ask is for references from reliable sources to back up the statement. To date, we do not have a reliable source to back up these statement. The only reliable source provided states It is the only remaining completely walled city in Ireland and one of the finest examples of a walled city in Europe today. . Therefore the article should be changed to reflect the source. Your argument about Conwy is invalid, as has already been pointed out to you, because Conwy is not a city, and therefore doesn't invalidate the statement about city walls. To you, you may not see a difference between a city and a town but without a reference, your argument is deemed an opinion, and carries no weight. I hope this helps. @O_Fenian, do you agree to change the article to reflect the provided reliable reference? --HighKing (talk) 12:08, 3 April 2009 (UTC)

No, because there are three reliable references that refer to Derry's walls being the most complete city walls in the British Isles. You can say you don't have reliable references as much as you want, but there are three listed on this talk page which you keep ignoring O Fenian (talk) 13:38, 3 April 2009 (UTC)

This is of course also ignoring the fact that Conwy's walls only surround about 80% of the town, one entire side is not walled. And part of the wall was taken down in 1848, an arch installed, and the top put back on again. Canterbury Tail talk 12:31, 3 April 2009 (UTC)

As regards not completely surrounding Conwy, these are defensive walls not necessarily circular walls. Therefore if some natural topology only requires an 80% surround that could still be complete a defensive wall. Quebec's walls are straight not circular but were a complete defensive wall nevertheless due to the other three sides of Quebec city being high up on a cliff. Conplete merely requires them to be complete not circular.

Now if part of the wall was demolished in 1848 then that would affect their completeness, but if it was rebuilt again, then that might reinstate their completeness. Of course you could now state that although complete they are no longer original but parts of Derry's walls were changed over the years to include additional gates quite apart from the cutting to allow heavy goods vehicles.

".... Later were added New Gate (1789), Castle Gate (1803) and Magazine Gate (1865)...." —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.144.110.133 (talk) 22:07, 3 April 2009 (UTC)

Vote on Derry / Conwy / British Isles

The vote is whether the sentence that "Derry is the last remaining city in the British Isles to be completely surrounded by defensive walls" conflicts with the fact that Conwy in Wales has a completely intact set of walls that are also a UNSECO World Heritage site. Should the sentence therefore be changed to read "Derry is the last remaining city in the Ireland to be completely surrounded by defensive walls" so as not to conflict with Conwy's claim?

I vote to change the sentence - 1 for change / 0 for status quo —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.148.68.105 (talk) 13:33, 1 April 2009 (UTC)

I'd have to vote against because Derry is not completely surrounded by walls.
Additionally though the differences are often trivial a town is not a city.
HOWEVER it is weasel worded to say Derry has the most complete city walls and not mention that though this is the case as far as cities are concerned if we're talking about settlements in general then you should look to the town of Conwy--Him and a dog 14:35, 1 April 2009 (UTC)

So you stating that neither wording is correct because the walls are not complete?

Does a break in the walls necessitated to allow for heavy goods vehicles mean the walls are not complete? Does the road infact go over the wall and the wall is still complete although buried. I don't know.

All I am saying is that Derry cannot claim to be the most complete if there is another town/city/village with walls of the same or more completeness. It is not the completeness or otherwise of Derry's walls that concerns me, rather it is the fact that the article is claiming a greater geographical area than it is entitled to. It is the most complete in Ireland but cannot claim to be the most complete in the British Isles due to Conwy the same way that it cannot claim to be the most complete in Europe due to several other walled cities/towns/villages.

Conwy's claim has no relevance to Derry's claim. O Fenian (talk) 15:38, 1 April 2009 (UTC)

You really should read the article on weasel words. The city/town difference is a very vague thing which is not so obvious to native speakers of other languages and it defiatly warrants mention.--Him and a dog 16:36, 1 April 2009 (UTC)

"Town" and "city" are not weasel words, to suggest otherwise is ridiculous. O Fenian (talk) 17:19, 1 April 2009 (UTC)

Don't play ignorant. They are very similar concepts and you are purposfully hiding the truth.--Him and a dog 18:20, 1 April 2009 (UTC)

The facts according to reliable published sources

Let's keep all private emails (unreliable sources), opinions about walls and gaps in walls (original research), Conwy (a town, therefore not relevant to a sentence about cities) and anything else like that out of this section. This is what reliable sources say;

• Official Derry Tourist website "Derry also known as Londonderry is the only remaining completely walled city in the British Isles"
• Sydney Morning Herald "Derry is the only city left in the British Isles that is completely surrounded by walls"
• Adventure Guide to Ireland (ISBN 978-1588433671) "The area called Cityside includes at its core the only intact medieval walled city in Ireland or the British Isles"
• University of Ulster " It is the only remaining completely walled city in Ireland"

Therefore according to multiple reliable sources Derry's walls are regarded as complete/intact, and the most complete/intact in the British Isles. O Fenian (talk) 13:46, 3 April 2009 (UTC)

Hi, thanks for providing the references again - I missed them first time round, hence my subsequent multiple requests. Bearing in mind WP:RS defines as follows: Reliable sources are credible published materials with a reliable publication process; their authors are generally regarded as trustworthy or authoritative in relation to the subject at hand.

• Official Derry Tourist website Questionable reliability - it's a tourist site to encourage tourists, with no named author, and questionable as to whether the material is authoritative.
• Sydney Morning Herald "Derry is the only city left in the British Isles that is completely surrounded by walls" Fails for a number of reasons, primarily because of not being an authoritative source on the subject.
• Adventure Guide to Ireland (ISBN 978-1588433671) "The area called Cityside includes at its core the only intact medieval walled city in Ireland or the British Isles" Fails as not being an authoritative source on the subject.
• University of Ulster " It is the only remaining completely walled city in Ireland" Good reference.

Until another reliable source is found that states the city walls are the most complete in the British Isles, I'd prefer to use the citation from the University of Ulster.

BTW, This source has a contradictory claim about Chester walls: Find out about the fascinating history of one of the best preserved complete walled Cities in the British Isles.. --HighKing (talk) 15:59, 3 April 2009 (UTC)

Those are perfectly reliable sources, if you disagree take it to WP:RSN. The only reason you say they are not is that you are looking for any excuse to remove British Isles, something I see has resulted in you being blocked for vandalism in the past. It is laughable that you claim a book is not authoritative on Derry's walls yet somehow the University of Ulster are? You knock one source for having no named author, yet your preferred (ie, the one that doesn't say British Isles) has no named author either. Your hypocrisy is breathtaking. O Fenian (talk) 16:13, 3 April 2009 (UTC)

Typical - is this the round of "Attack-The-Editor"? My advice is that you calm down - maybe take a look at what constitutes an ad hominen attack.

Policy is very clear on what is reliable and what is not. And even taking into consideration that a lot depends on context, the only reputable and reliable authoritative source is the University of Ulster due to the nature of the institution (you expect it to only publish facts that have been researched). The book is probably an authoritative source on Adventuring in Ireland, but not on history or city walls or Derry. Similarly, Tourist sites and 3rd hand quotations are generally not acceptable. If you want to ask for another viewpoint, by all means take it to WP:RSN but you'll most likely be told pretty much the same thing. Finally, the source I provided is at least as reliable as the sources you've provided and it clearly contradicts the claims. --HighKing (talk) 16:43, 3 April 2009 (UTC)

Policy is clear that a book is a reliable source. The University of Ulster page is nothing but an advertising blurb for a campus, that is not an authoritative source for Derry's walls. See, I can do exactly the same as you, it isn't difficult. If you want to claim any of the reliable sources are not reliable, go to WP:RSN for community input. O Fenian (talk) 14:57, 7 April 2009 (UTC)

This is something which is going to re-open soon. @O_Fenian, you state that policy is clear that a book is a reliable source. First off, there are no "book" references in the article. Second, published 3rd party reliable sources are acceptable, but you have proposed a book called "Adventuring in Ireland" which is clearly not reliable (or scholarly). There are no reliable or acceptable sources to back up the claim as it is currently worded. Also, I posted this (equally substantiated) claim from this source about Chester walls: Find out about the fascinating history of one of the best preserved complete walled Cities in the British Isles.. This directly contradicts Derry's claims, so I propose that the claim is either reworded in such a way that it *is* backed up, or the claim is removed from the article altogether. --HighKing (talk) 14:01, 21 April 2009 (UTC)

Bad sentence

If or when this page becomes editable again, could this sentence please be sorted out, as it does not make sense: "Apart from this local government decision, official use within the UK the city is usually known as Londonderry." At a minimum, inserting "in" before "official use" might work. Thanks and best wishes DisillusionedBitterAndKnackered (talk) 14:53, 7 April 2009 (UTC)

British Isles v Ireland

While it seems that everyone is now exhausted and bored debating whether Derry has the most complete walls in the British Isles or just Ireland due to Conwy's conflicting claim, we cannot just leave this article locked forever. Therefore a decision needs to be made........

Change the sentence! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.13.109.32 (talk) 16:15, 7 April 2009 (UTC)

What I'd go with is Derry's are the most complete city walls in the British isles- though the town of Conwy has better. Except better worded of course. I'm sleepy. --Him and a dog 18:20, 7 April 2009 (UTC)

Hey but thats the point, they are not the most complete in the "British Isles", Conwy's are, so the furthest the claim can go is that they are the most complete in Ireland. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.242.190.121 (talk) 17:58, 8 April 2009 (UTC)

Conwy isn't a city though. Its a town. Derrys are the most complete of any CITY. The difference between a city and a town is a small one and Conwy should definatly be mentioned for the benefit of those who are not so aware of it but the difference exists--Him and a dog 19:58, 8 April 2009 (UTC)

Perhaps town could be put in italics to make this clear, because at the moment it might not be obvious that this is the difference between the two. Cordless Larry (talk) 20:11, 8 April 2009 (UTC)

The difference between town and city is subjective. Most languages don't even have two words for town/city.

The use of the word city as opposed to town in this context is solely for the purpose of trying to justify the claim that Derry's walls are the most complete in the "British Isles" as opposed to just Ireland. The term "British Isles" itself is being used as a proxy for the Londonderry / Derry dispute, to impose a sense of Britishness upon the article having failed to rename the article to Londonderry.

Therefore not only is the claim incorrect, but it's motivation is purley sectarian. Grow up! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.150.148.135 (talk) 16:46, 9 April 2009 (UTC)

Not subjective in the slightest. City is a legal status in the United Kingdom, where Derry is. O Fenian (talk) 17:06, 9 April 2009 (UTC)

I stand by my original middle position- Derrys are the most complete in Britain but make clear this is for a city and Conwy also has more complete walls however it is a town, not a city. You are indeed correct that many languages (hell, even many English speakers. The US does things very differently) don't differentiate between the two and lots of people reading wikipedia won't get it. Its weasel worded to just say Derrys are the most complete and leave it at that.--Him and a dog 18:05, 9 April 2009 (UTC)

Just to be picky, but then again that's kinda what this conversation is about, but Derry isn't in Britain. British Isles yes, Britain not as in the island. Canterbury Tail talk 18:16, 9 April 2009 (UTC)

Except this source has a contradictory claim about Chester walls: Find out about the fascinating history of one of the best preserved complete walled Cities in the British Isles.. And to date, we still haven't actually agreed that a reference has been found to back up Derry's claims, have we? --HighKing (talk) 19:40, 9 April 2009 (UTC)

The City of Londonderry was never called Derry!

The name Derry relates to the old town which existed prior to the Plantation of Ulster. This town or large village as it probably was at the time was located on the east bank of the River Foyle where the Waterside district now exists. The walled city on the west bank was a new development built by settlers and named Londonderry, it was never ever known as Derry. To call it such now is inaccurate and makes a mockery of the whole Wikipedia ethos. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.33.101.58 (talk) 15:13, 8 April 2009 (UTC)

Have you just discovered this page or something? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.242.190.121 (talk • contribs) 19:00, 8 April 2009 (UTC)

Why?--78.33.101.58 (talk) 14:24, 9 April 2009 (UTC)

True. But the same also holds true for vice-versa. Both of the cities grew into each other and it was decided to begin classing them as one city at some point or other (I'm no expert, would be interested to know though) which leads to the mess of which one is the most predominant.--Him and a dog 19:56, 8 April 2009 (UTC)

The Waterside (original hamlet of Derry) was never a city whereas the walled entity of Londonderry was conceived and built on the basis that is would ultimately be a city with the protestant Cathedral of St Columb's being constructed within it's walls in 1633.

I for one like the suggestion of an independent arbitrator to consider what name to use here as this makes much sense instead of the mockery that exists at the moment. --78.33.101.58 (talk) 14:25, 9 April 2009 (UTC)

meh, try if you want. I doubt you'll get anywhere as an annonymous IP though. Its been gone over far before and the current broken way seems to be stuck until there's a development in the situation in the real world.--Him and a dog 18:10, 9 April 2009 (UTC)

I would if there was any point in it. Seems that Wikipedia operates on the basis of their own law ie one law for them and another for everyone else! An independent arbiter would be the only proper way to go but hey, they couldn't even agree on that eh Ding Dong? --78.33.101.58 (talk) 00:38, 10 April 2009 (UTC)

Arbitration

I suggest somebody brings this up here - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Ethnic_and_cultural_conflicts_noticeboard

The legal name used on signs and maps is not being used here purely due to sectarian politics. The fact the entire talk page virtually is an endless debate on this proves its validity for going higher.

I know there's arguments about 'consensus' and 'compromise', but anybody can easily mobilise yet more politicised editors in pointless straw polls, and cold hard facts don't require compromise, which is an insult to the concept of truth. Nationalist sentiments should always be subservient to reality, be they Republican or Unionist. Personally my politics swing neither way, but I am frankly shocked by how people can distort the facts so effectively because they personally don't like the way things are in actuality.

People here have proven they can't be relied upon to be objective or adult, so I suggest it should be moved to independent arbitration and left at that. If you truly believe in the validity of your arguments, there should be no problem, only for those who realise their positions are built on foundations of straw and like-minded biased editors will have an interest in blocking such a move by allowing people without a stake or agenda to decide the future name of the page. 90.219.158.254 (talk) 22:49, 8 April 2009 (UTC)

Maybe even silt and sand like the foundations of the Bogside where most of the Republican's were conceived! --78.33.101.58 (talk) 14:24, 9 April 2009 (UTC)

The issue doesn't need arbitrated, it has already been settled. (Read further up for how this settlement was arrived at, how the term Derry is more commonly used than Londonderry etc.) What you mean is you don't like the agreed compromise of Derry for the city and Londonderry for the county. Whether this is legally correct isn't the issue here, Wikipedia is not a legal document. It is an encyclodpedia and the city is more commonly known as Derry, albeit maybe officially known as Londonderry, but this is mentioned in the article. And do you think if you manage to change the article name to Londonderry that that would resolve the issue and end the "endless debate"? Not a chance! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.151.48.204 (talk) 16:38, 9 April 2009 (UTC)

Sorry to disagree but the majority of the people of Northern Ireland refer to the city as Londonderry in proper conversation. The term Derry is simply a slang or shortened form of the name which I myself use occasionally depending on the circumstances. By the same token I refer to New York as The Big Apple and Edinburgh as Auld Reekie. This doesn't mean that I want to change their names to such for all posterity! --78.33.101.58 (talk) 17:13, 9 April 2009 (UTC)

And the majority of people in Ireland call it Derry. But it's none of their business just the same way as it is none of the business of "the majority of the people of Northern Ireland". It is however the business of the people who live there, and for us alone to decide on the name of our own city. And the majority of people there call it Derry. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.241.60.209 (talk) 20:32, 9 April 2009 (UTC)

Instead of artbitration, just apply for your new Irish passport using the term "Londonderry". The Irish government have stated that they will now issue passports with this inscription if you desire. Of course you have to have been born in Derry to do that but sure if you weren't born in Derry you wouldn't be interested in the name of this article anyway, now would you? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.150.190.81 (talk) 17:00, 9 April 2009 (UTC)

Why would I want an Irish passport anyway being an Ulster and British citizen and mores to the point, proud of it! What did the Irish Government ever do for me except harbour terrorist criminals and light up the way to Belfast for the Nazi bombers! --78.33.101.58 (talk) 17:13, 9 April 2009 (UTC)

FYI the republic was very cooperative against both terrorists and the nazis. Do some reading.--Him and a dog 14:03, 10 April 2009 (UTC)

Londonderry is good enough for me!

And so it should be as most of the people of Northern Ireland / Ulster think the same. Such a glorious city with such a glorious history of valour and defence by its former people against the treacherous insurgents. It is no wonder that the celebrations to mark such a wonderful achievement has been carried on down the centuries by so many sons and daughters of Ulster.

Even the Northern Ireland anthem which is played at the Commonwealth Games is properly referred to as "The Londonderry Air" with the lyrics to 'Danny Boy' amongst others being sung to it.

The CAA code for City of Derry airport is LDY being the abbreviation for Londonderry.

Go to Google Maps and type in 'Derry' and see what comes up! .....seems they have got it right! --78.33.101.58 (talk) 17:35, 9 April 2009 (UTC)

Protected - Again

Yet again I've had to protect this page. It's protected for all for two weeks now. There is still no consensus on the talk page, and continuous editing and reverting going on on the article. Canterbury Tail talk 21:43, 10 April 2009 (UTC)

I've just stumbled upon this whole naming dispute now and can't believe that the article is called Derry when it is accepted (and legally ruled) that the city is named Londonderry. If the term 'Derry' is in more common use surely this is because it is shortened slang, and most people would say the city's correct name is Londonderry. Stuff like this is why Wikipedia will continue to be berated for compromising and pandering to groups who want to change the truth. There is no need for a compromise when it is a simple fact that the city is named Londonderry! I am British but couldn't give two hoots on this issue, from what I see it has been blown out of all proportion by groups who want to use this as a political weapon. I just care because it is Wikipedia and Wikipedia should do what an encyclopaedia does and present the facts. CompactDistance (talk) 21:18, 14 April 2009 (UTC)

I must agree wholeheartedly with your comments and sentiments above. Wikipedia is being used as a soapbox by certain individuals with a political axe to grin. Facts are being distorted and presented as truth when such is nothing more than sentimental garbage.--87.115.13.130 (talk) 23:15, 14 April 2009 (UTC) --HighKing (talk) 10:47, 15 April 2009 (UTC)

"I am British but couldn't give two hoots on this issue, from what I see it has been blown out of all proportion by groups who want to use this as a political weapon" - Yeah you! The people of this city, the only people who matter in this issue, were quite happy with the compromise agreed some years ago until you and your fellow travellers came round and start trying to stir up trouble again. Grow Up! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.13.66.209 (talk) 12:45, 15 April 2009 (UTC)

Thats not what the current locking is about FYI.
But, since we're there; the majority of the population in Bombay call their city Bombay. But where does wiki have the article...?--Him and a dog 16:39, 15 April 2009 (UTC)

Quote from the wiki article on British Isles: "The term "British Isles" is controversial in relation to Ireland, where there are objections to the use of the phrase and the government of Ireland discourages its use.[10][11][12] "Britain and Ireland" is a frequently used alternative name for the group". But the problem with this is that stating Derry's walls are the most complete in "Ireland and Britain" is incorrect because of Conwy which are the most complete in Britain but also because Derry is not in Britian. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.151.52.125 (talk) 18:31, 17 April 2009 (UTC)

Parallels from Macedonia naming controversy

Macedonia has a similar, if different, naming controversy due to Greece's refusal to recognise the country's choosen name. What to call the article has been resolved on Wikipedia using the following criteria:

• Naming policy. Names are governed by the Wikipedia:Naming conventions policy, which requires that we "use common names of persons and things".

Common names prioritised. Wikipedia:Naming conventions (common names) prioritises "the most commonly used name" because "using a full formal name requires people to know that name, and to type more."

• Self-identifying names prioritised. Where names are disputed, as in this instance, Wikipedia:Naming conflict requires us to prioritise the "self-identifying name" of an entity without reference to the political or moral merits of that name.

How Macedonia self-identifies. Macedonia self-identifies formally as the "Republic of Macedonia" in its constitution and its government affairs [35], and uses "Macedonia" as the common short form of this formal name. Approximately two-thirds of UN member states, including all but two of the English-speaking countries, use this name.

• Daily usage by English media. In daily use by the English-language media, "Macedonia" is overwhelmingly the preferred term ([36] vs [37]).

Usage by other reference works. Almost all of the reference works (encyclopedias, dictionaries, gazetteers etc) available via Credo Reference and Oxford Reference Online use the term "Macedonia" as the conventional short form of the country; most also use "Macedonia" by itself as the name of their articles on the country.

Using the above Derry wins out on "Common names prioritised" and "Self-identifying names prioritised" while Londonderry probably wins "Daily usage by English Media". —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.150.169.88 (talk) 18:28, 22 April 2009 (UTC)

Irish Government accede to the name Londonderry

Given the long-awaited decision by the Government of the Irish Republic to finally acknowledge that the third largest city in Northern Ireland can be referred to by them as Londonderry, I propose the whole concencus wrt the name be revisited BBC News Irish News. The Irish Government by their action have now confirmed what most people in Northern Ireland and the UK for that matter, have always known and accepted, and that is that the proper name for the city is Londonderry. The people didn't need a High Court Judge BBC News or the Government of the Republic Irish Dept of Foreign Affairs to tell them what they already knew.

You are now entering LONDONDERRY! Irish Times.

I propose that the lead name be the proper and legal title of Londonderry and that the coloquial term 'Derry' and the Irish name 'Doire' be given as secondary information. --The Maiden City (talk) 08:58, 23 April 2009 (UTC)

• Support - per wikipedia rules also.Traditional unionist (talk) 10:29, 23 April 2009 (UTC)

No one is stopping you calling it Londonderry if you want ..... that's what the Irish Government passport decision is about, the same way you have been able to get Derry on a British passport for years ...... but the fact remains that Derry is the more commonly used term for the city so it takes precedence in Wikipedia as explained above.

As for your laughable claim to Derry being the third largest city, take a quick peek at Google earth and see your pathetic ranting for what it is....... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.148.80.97 (talk) 10:46, 23 April 2009 (UTC)

I think people are mistaking what this news story actually is. All it's doing is allowing someone from Derry/Londonderry to choose what they wish it to be called on their passport. It's not changing how the Irish government refers to the city (which doesn't matter anyway as the city is not in that country.) It doesn't change anything, it's not as if road signs, maps, teaching and usage will change due to this. Canterbury Tail talk 11:43, 23 April 2009 (UTC)

Indeed. Another interesting site is [38] with a list of Northern Irish newspapers prepared by the Irish Department of Communications, Energy and Natural Resources; they have similar lists for England, Scotland, Wales, and other countries. The Derry Journal is listed as being published in "Derry, Co Londonderry", and the Londonderry Sentinel in "Waterside, Co Londonderry". They also show what looks like a tiny Ulster Banner. I would not read very much into any of this except that the Irish government does not seem to see this as the most vital issue in the world.--Rumping (talk) 12:56, 23 April 2009 (UTC)

Contrary to what the papers say, it is not necessarily anything to do with the city. The press release says "Irish citizens born in County Derry to have the right to choose to have English language name of their place of birth entered in their passport as either Derry or Londonderry". O Fenian (talk) 20:20, 23 April 2009 (UTC)

Wrong Londonderry is not an 'English Language' name for Derry, they are two completely different names. Anyone with the slighest titter of wit would see this. The city was given the name Londonderry as distinct from the original settlement of Derry, the two do not equate. Until such time as the name is changed legally, the proper name is Londonderry no matter how many call it Derry.--87.115.136.194 (talk) 16:50, 24 April 2009 (UTC)

Londonderry is not an English language name for Derry? What language is it then, Swahili? Considering your whole argument is based upon that Irish government press release, for you to turn round and say it is wrong is self-defeating. As is requesting an unblock and evading the block using an IP before the unblock request has been reviewed.. O Fenian (talk) 17:11, 24 April 2009 (UTC)

2nd City of Northern Ireland / 4th City of Ireland

There have been some claims that Lisburn is the second city of Northern Ireland. For the record, according to the 2001 Census:

City	Population
Belfast	267,500
Derry	83,652
Lisburn	71,435

And for Ireland:

City	Population	Census Year
Dublin	505,739	2006
Belfast	267,500	2001
Cork	119,143	2006
Derry	83,652	2001
Galway	72,414	2006
Lisburn	71,435	2006
Limerick	52,539	2006

As usual, conflicting claims will be made as to the city boundaries and whether one is comparing like with like, and while these are valid arguments, in the absence of a definitive comparison, the above figures are based on the published populations whatever the city limits were. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.148.80.97 (talk) 11:09, 23 April 2009 (UTC)

British Isles naming dispute

Here is the wikipedia article on the British Isles naming dispute: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Isles_naming_dispute

This is relevant due to the current edit war over "Derry's walls are the most complete in the British Isles / Ireland ". The British Isles claim is not only incorrect but is being used as a proxy for the Derry/Londonderry naming dispute. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.150.196.22 (talk) 15:05, 23 April 2009 (UTC)

Assessment comment

The comment(s) below were originally left at Talk:Derry/Comments, and are posted here for posterity. Following several discussions in past years, these subpages are now deprecated. The comments may be irrelevant or outdated; if so, please feel free to remove this section.

I have given this article a rating of B for the following reasons: One overriding problem with this article that will restrict it from getting a GA rating is its instability. It frequently attracts people due to the whole Derry/Londonderry battle. As far as I can see, referencing is good, however, a few don't have retrieval dates and not all referencing is matching the most common style. Content is good, flows reasonably well and is in a sensible order. However, segments of songs from the "City in Song" section is questionable in an encyclopaedia. Images are good and illustrate the article well. A good few redlinks are present. If anyone has anything to add, please do. Mouse Nightshirt 00:01, 28 December 2006 (UTC)

Last edited at 00:01, 28 December 2006 (UTC). Substituted at 20:29, 2 May 2016 (UTC)