Talk:Demographics of Somalia/Archive 1

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Archive 1

Bravanese et al.

Members of the population of Brava city, Kisimayu and Bajuni islands : Koyama, Ngumi, Chovaye, Chula, Chandraa, Darkaasi and numerous smaller are a mixed group of people speaking closely related forms of kiswahili ( CHIMWINI dialect in Brava and KIBAJUNI in Kisimayu and the islands) These people are part of Minority groups in Somalia and they form less than(0.3%). Please note that Somali born in Somalia should be able to speak Somali.

The main Mojority Clans are Darood, Dir, Hawiya, Ishaq, Rahanwein. There is also a large Bantu clan in the Southren Somalia including above towns and settlements of Badhaadhe district. All of these speak the Somali Language.

Kisawahili language is not mainly spoken in Somalia. However, you will find it is spoken by many fisher men and traders in (Brava city ,Kisimayu and Bajuni islands : Koyama, Ngumi, Chovaye, Chula, Chandraa, Darkaas)as a second language. Please note that people from Tanzania and coast area of Kenya speak different Kisawahili dialects.

According to the CIA World Factbook, only 85% of Somalia is made up of ethnic Somalis, and 15% are other non-Somalis, including Bantu peoples and Arabs. Could someone check up on this? — Hizrael 12:06, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

Article merge

I hate to bring it up, seeing how it was probably a good bit of effort, but I'm thinking Somali clan should have been merged to Somali people rather than Demographics of Somalia. Somali people (and clans) do not only exist in Somalia, whereas Demographics of Somalia includes other ethnic groups (however small they may be). I propose splitting this and re-merging so Somali clan is part of Somali people. I'm willing to do the work, but figured I'd first mention it on this page. -- Gyrofrog (talk) 10:15, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

The Demographics of Somalia page should definitely not be merged with the Somali people page for the simple fact that some of the groups listed under the Somali clans section aren't ethnic Somalis at all, and they therefore do not belong on the ethnic Somali people page. They've already got their own pages expressly reserved for them. The history section on the Somali people page also does not apply to them and neither does the genetics section, again, because they are not ethnic Somalis. The Habesha people page, for instance, is strictly reserved for that ethnic group, as indeed it should be. Ditto the Berber people page. The Somali people page is no exception in this regard. Middayexpress (talk) 10:31, 30 July 2008 (UTC)
Just to clarify: I'm not suggesting a merger of "Demographics of Somalia" with "Somali people." In recent activities, "Somali clan" was merged with (and re-directed to) "Demographics of Somalia." I am suggesting that it would have been more appropriate to merge "Somali clan" with "Somali people." To put it in other words (at least how I see it): Somali clans are made up of Somali people. Somali and non-Somali people (e.g. Bantus, Bravanese) who live in Somalia are all covered by Demographics of Somalia. Are there Somali clans who are not ethnic Somalis? If so, should they have been in the "Somali clan" article in the first place? (Here is an old version of that article.) Again, my concerns are that a substantial number of Somalis (and thus Somali clans, e.g. Issa (clan) and Ogaden (clan)) live outside of Somalia, and so "Demographics of Somalia" may be too narrow of a re-direct target. Alternatively, if we don't want to remove the merged text from "Demographics of Somalia", then at least change the redirect so that "Somali clan" instead points to "Somali people". -- Gyrofrog (talk) 12:46, 30 July 2008 (UTC)
Somali clans are made up of Somali people: In real life, you betcha. On Wikipedia's Demographics of Somalia page, however, the fact remains that several of the groups listed and discussed under the 'minority clans' portion of the Somali clan sub-groupings aren't ethnic Somalis at all. These groups therefore do not belong on the ethnic Somali people page; they have their own pages already reserved especially for them. Moreover, there is a segment of the Somali people page that already lists the actual ethnic Somali clans, including the Darod and Dir major clans that the Ogaden and Issa sub-clans respectively fall under. That said, I do see your point that there are clans with members who live outside of Somalia proper, and it's a valid one. But you should know that every single clan that is represented outside of Somalia is also well represented in Somalia itself, including the Ogaden sub-clan (which has a strong presence in southern Somalia) and the Issa sub-clan (which is also found in northern Somalia). It's therefore not inaccurate to list those clans on the Demographics of Somalia page alongside all other Somali clans. Middayexpress (talk) 14:10, 30 July 2008 (UTC)
I think we are in agreement about everything you wrote in your last paragraph. I don't see how any of this precludes redirecting "Somali clan" to "Somali people" instead of "Demographics of Somalia". Note that I am only referring to what the redirect does: i.e., when someone types in, or clicks on, "Somali clan" it will instead redirect to "Somali people"; I am dropping (at least for now) the proposal to remove or relocate any text. -- Gyrofrog (talk) 14:48, 30 July 2008 (UTC)
P.S. There is still the problem that the edit histories have been merged under "Demographics of Somalia", and so the redirect I'm proposing wouldn't reflect the older edit history. I've left messages for those involved with the recent merge (I explained my reasoning thusly: (Somali clan = Somali people) but (People in Somalia != Somali people)). -- Gyrofrog (talk) 15:00, 30 July 2008 (UTC)
People in Somalia by no means equals Somali people. People in Somalia simply equals people in Somalia. The term 'Somali' denotes the descendants of Soomaal i.e. ethnic Somalis. That's where the very name Somali comes from. That said, I honestly don't see the point in redirecting the term 'Somali clan' to the Somali people page, since the Somali people page contains but a smidgeon of the info on Somali clans contained in the Demographics of Somalia page. That complete info used to be in the Somali clan page, and it has now been transferred to this page. It therefore stands to reason that the search term 'Somali clan' should redirect to this page as it indeed does. All the details on the various Somali clans, after all, are here now. Middayexpress (talk) 17:11, 30 July 2008 (UTC)
"People in Somalia by no means equals Somali people." Right, that's what I said ("!=" was intended to mean "not equal to"). But "Demographics in Somalia" does mean "people in Somalia", and thus it includes Ashraaf, Bravanese, Bantus, etc. in addition to Somalis. "Somali people" and "Somali clan", strictly speaking, both refer to ethnic Somalis, hence my proposal that the merge should have been between those two articles. -- Gyrofrog (talk) 18:07, 30 July 2008 (UTC)
As the person who did the move to get the edit history back I thought I should chime in. The original merge was done as a cut and paste and I then moved the page over to preserve the edit history. A quick look at the history shows that there are under 1000 edits to the page. To undo the merege would seem to me possible by going through all the edits one at a time to identify which were for each article. It would then mean deleting the article again. Restore only the "Somali clan" edits, move it back then restore the "Demographics of Somalia". See also Help:Moving a page#Fixing cut and paste moves which seems to indicate that is what would have to be done.
That said, if it was done would it then be a good idea to merge the "Somali clan" in "Somali people"? CambridgeBayWeather Have a gorilla 18:37, 30 July 2008 (UTC)
It may be possible to go through the edits, but I can't imagine anyone having (or wanting) to do so. That's why I mentioned simply changing the current redirect (but this wouldn't reflect the edit history at all). -- Gyrofrog (talk) 19:11, 30 July 2008 (UTC)
Well seeing as I'm the one that made the merge I would be willing to do it, but it would be slow and take several days. CambridgeBayWeather Have a gorilla 19:16, 30 July 2008 (UTC)
In that case, if it's between moving information on non-ethnic Somali groups to a page strictly devoted to ethnic Somalis or a simple redirect of 'Somali clan' to 'Somali people' as Gyrofrog has suggested, then I think the simple redirect is best. Don't bother with the re-merger Cambridge. Middayexpress (talk) 20:48, 30 July 2008 (UTC)
Midday, I do see your point (in case I wasn't clear) regarding the inclusion of non-Somali groups in information about Somalis. My presumption is that, this being a wiki after all, there's nothing precludes us from either removing the non-ethnic Somali groups, or identifying them as such. In the latter case I think attribution is paramount, as I can see where such edits may be contentious: perhaps not so much for Ashraaf and Bantus, which to me seem clearly non-Somali, but the other four that are currently mentioned as "minority clans" (though I'm not sure which of these, if any, are the ones you mean). CBW, thanks for your offer, but please also see Wikipedia:Splitting, which would be much less time and effort (I knew there had to be some way to deal with splits and GFDL). -- Gyrofrog (talk) 22:05, 30 July 2008 (UTC)
Being a wiki after all, there's nothing precludes us from either removing the non-ethnic Somali groups: Indeed. And should this merger take place (though a simple redirect makes a lot more sense), I shall try and do that in the model of the Habesha people page, which only ever mentions Habeshas and not any of the many Nilotic and Bantu tribes in southern Ethiopia. The other ethnic groups have their own pages already reserved expressly for them. Middayexpress (talk) 22:38, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

Anything that does not involve me going through all the edits to find the 93 that applied to this page is fine. I'm fine with wherever the article(s) end up but I do think that the Somali clans (as in ethnic) should be in the Somali people page. The other non-ethnic clans in Somalia could be covered here. CambridgeBayWeather Have a gorilla 22:49, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

Exactly, which brings us back once again to the question of why a merger is even necessary to begin with since the ethnic Somali clans are already covered on the Somali people page? Again, a simple re-direct will go a long way towards resolving this problem and spare us all needless work. Middayexpress (talk) 23:01, 30 July 2008 (UTC)
I agree, and I think that since we're not actually moving any content, we don't need to worry about GFDL attribution. I'll go ahead and make the re-direct edit. Thanks, -- Gyrofrog (talk) 23:18, 30 July 2008 (UTC)
And checkY Done. Thank you both! -- Gyrofrog (talk) 23:20, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

Okay explain in detail what other ethnic groups lives in Somalia?

Such comments will be incorporated into that section. Cadenas2008 (talk) 20:23, 22 March 2009 (UTC)

No they will not because the main Y DNA study on Somalis by Sanchez that you are trying to incorporate only focuses on Somalis. It does not sample the non-ethnically Somali residents of Somalia such as the Benadiri, the Bravanese, the Bantu, the Bajuni, and Italian Somalians. It is thus original research to pretend that what you have been attempting to insert into the article amounts to the "Genetics of Somalia", or what have you, rather than just the genetics of Somalis. Again, the Somali DNA profile is already discussed in detail on the Somali people page where it belongs. Please stop forcing the issue. Middayexpress (talk) 21:12, 22 March 2009 (UTC)

World Factbook update

As the "Demographic statistics" section is culled from the CIA World Factbook, I thought I should update it with more recent data. A lot of the figures were followed with "(2006 est.)" so it appears this had not been updated for some time. The July 2010 data is already available and so I have updated the entire section based on the new figures. (I was prompted to do so after seeing the population figure decrease with this edit). -- Gyrofrog (talk) 15:10, 30 June 2010 (UTC)

IP suggestions

93.96.146.126 added the following to the article. I have removed their e-mail address.

the person wrote somalian ethnic or somalian tribes actually he did not mention same others somalian tribes which is arab meheri so I will request to correctly to put the other tribes, please see the list blow.

SALAADIINTA BEELAHA SHANNAAD

1-Suldaan Axmed Rashiid Sh. Shuceyb =Lixda Shiidle 2- Suldaan C/laahi X. Qaaneey =Shanbare 3- Suldaan Muxuyadiin Mukhtaar Muudeey = eylo 4- Ugaas Cali Ugaas Xasan =Makane 5- Ugaas Xaaji Xuseen Maxamed =Hintire 6- Caaqil Maxamed Cismaan Orow =Hintire 7- Ugaas Cabdi Xasan Yarow = Mahuraan 8- Ugaas Abuukar Qalaad Hadaafow =bah salaamo 9- Ugaas Muxumad Xasan Daa�uud =Gasar 10- Ugaas Muxumad Sh. Shaafici =Sedex Cumar 11- Ugaas Cabdi Siraad Ibraahim =Dagiine 12- Suldaan Cumar Ciid Qaaris =Reer Geedow 13- Sh. Axmed Sh. Maxamed = Ku simaha Boqorka kaboole 14- Ugaas Sh. Xasan Yare Xasanow =jilib reer masad 15- Caaqil Aweys Huneero =Mushunguli 16- Suldaan Luqmaan Xasan Xuseen =Ceytire 17-Ugaas C/qaadir Ugaas Axmed Deer =Reer Ow Xasan 18-Ugaas Max�ed Bashiir Ugaas Xasan =Midhibaan 19-Suldaan C/xaliim C/maalik =Ajuuraan 20-Ugaas Aadan Cabdow Sheekh =Muusa dheri 21-Suldaan Max�uud Muuse Ayax Dhowre =Yibir 22-Ugaas Cabdi Guure Max�ed =Garjante 23-Ugaas C/raxmaan Axmed Siyaad =Yaxye Saalax 24-Sudaan Sheekh Cali Max�ed =Carab Max�uud Saalax 25-Ugaas Faarax Gacal Guuleed =Tumaal 26-Ugaas Baani Aadan Baana =Baajuun 27-Malaaq Suufi Muudey Cali =Bandhabow 28-Nabadoon Xaaji Abuukar Aweys Cali =Sedex Geedi 29-Iikar Xaaji C/llahi =Camuudi 30-Malaaq Xaaji Mahdi Nuuroow =Moorshe 31-Nabadoon Xaaji Abuukar Aweys =Iskaashato 32-Malaaq C/qaadir Shiikhey =Ku sime malaaq dhabarweyne 33-Nabadoon Max�ed C/qaadir Max�ed =faqey Culimo 34-Nabadoon Islow Ibraahim Nuur =Yacquub 35-Nabadoon C/llahi Seyid Cali =Asharaaf 36-Nabadoon C/qaadir Sh. Max�ed shiino =Reer Maanyo 37-Max�ed Seyid Jaamac =Shiikaal Gandershe 38-Nabadoon Sheekh Cusmaan Sh. C/llahi =Shiikhaal Jaziira 39-Suldaan Cabddow Sheekh Max�ed =Beesha Marko 40-Suldaan Bashiir Saalax Cali =Meheri 41-Suldaan C/qaadir Cumar Faarax =Meheri 42-Caaqil Seyid Nuur Sheekh C/qaadir =Reer Baraawe 43-Suldaan Cumar Barre =Yaxar 44-Suldaan C/llahi Axmed Xasan =Reer Aw Xasan 45-Suldaan Cusmaan Khaalid =Reer Aw Xasan 46-suldaan Najiib Sheekh Cali Xasan =Reer Aw Xasan 47-Suldaan Seyid Xasan Axmed = Carab Soomaali 

                           Dhamaad

Maxamed Macallin Cismaan{All-man} Somalitalk Baydhabo.

Faafin: SomaliTalk.com | Sept 26, 2007

Kulaabo bogga www.SomaliTalk.com © www.SomaliTalk.com

Yngvadottir (talk) 17:38, 27 December 2011 (UTC)

This type of information is better suited to individual articles about Somali clans, and then with the two following caveats:
  1. Clan listings need to be attributed to a source; and
  2. No one should need to scroll down more than one screen to view an entire list (see WP:LISTCRUFT).
For more information, see Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Somalia#Clan lineage and/or Category talk:Somali clans#RFC. Also keep in mind that this article is about all people who live in Somalia, not only ethnic Somalis. Thank you. -- Gyrofrog (talk) 18:14, 30 December 2011 (UTC)

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