Talk:Demographics of Israel/Archive 1

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Archive 1

Early discussions

Is there a reason we give non-Jewish population change numbers in annual percents, and Jewish change numbers in octoannual percents? It's very confusing to compare. (My reading of our numbers is that the non-Jewish population has been increasing faster; is that correct?) DanKeshet 14:42 Feb 15, 2003 (UTC)

The non-Jewish population has a much higher birthrate; the Jewish population has only maintained a higher growth rate because of immigration. The birthrate among most Jews in Israel and internationally is actually quite low (typically 1.4), the Jewish birthrate in Israel (~2.6?) is only above the replacement-rate because the Jews of local Arab origins maintain an extremely high birthrate (6 or 7?) not unlike the Amish. So when you take religion out of the picture, Israel is steadily becoming `Arab` again.
The highest birthrate is at Ultra-orthodox jews, who are not eastern jews (not "arab jews", but jews from arab countries). Average Israeli jewish families have high birthrate ~2.9 per woman, though considerably smaller than arab muslim birth rate (~3.8), but higher than arab christian (~2.3).Greyshark09 (talk) 05:51, 24 May 2010 (UTC)
And the Arab fertility rate (that's what you are using, not birthrate) is going down every year. Some predicts it will be equal with the Jewish one within this decade. Oriental and Sefaradic Jews have a slightly higher fertility rate than Ashkenazi Jews - but the difference is very small. The highest rate is for Haredim (the majority of whom is Ashkenazi) with something around 6-7. Benjil (talk) 08:45, 24 May 2010 (UTC)

"While the non-Jewish minority grows at an average rate of 4.9% per year, the Jewish population has increased by more than 27% (3% per year) since 1989 as a result of massive immigration to Israel, primarily from the republics of the former Soviet Union. Since 1989, nearly 841,000 such immigrants have arrived in Israel, making this the largest wave of immigration since independence. In addition, almost 20,000 members of the Ethiopian Jewish community have immigrated to Israel, 14,000 of them during the dramatic May 1991 Operation Solomon airlift."

Gaaak. Surely these detailed statistics don't belong at the beginning of the page?

The paragraphs about Israeli dance and art are not relevant to an article on demographics. They should be moved to Israeli culture or somewhere else.

Don't be timid. Go for it. Do it!! Unless someone convincingly argues otherwise in the next few units of time.

" Official figures do not exist as to the number of atheists or otherwise non-affiliated individuals, who may comprise up to a quarter of the population referred to as Jewish."

How is this possible? Everyone in Israel is officially classified as Jewish or non-Jewish and required to carry identity cards showing this information. Keith from Calgary 06:40, 5 Dec 2003 (UTC)

Identity cards don't show religious belief. Atheist Jews and religious Jews get the same cards. However, there are opinion polls about religious belief in Israel; if I come across one I'll include the figures. --Zero 09:38, 29 Nov 2003 (UTC)
But they are officially classified for purposes of the marriage laws - surely there would be "official figures" available.
Hundreds of thousands of people immigrated to Israel under the Law of Return but do not qualify as Jews in Israel. Where are they in the ethnic and religious classifications? I suspect they are included in the 80.1% Jewish religion and 80.1% Jewish ethnicity classes, even though many of them are Orthodox Christians or unafilliated. Is this correct? ... After a bit more research I see that all this stuff comes straight fron the US Central Intelligence Agency, which in turn obtains it's "facts" from the Israeli government. So much for NPOV. Keith from Calgary 06:40, 5 Dec 2003 (UTC)
Non-Jews who immigrate to Israel as family members of Jews get an id card showing "Christian" or "Muslim" (if s/he is one of those), or with that field left blank or marked as none (if not). They won't normally get "Jewish" unless they claim to be Jewish. A relative who claims to be Jewish can probably get a card with "Jewish" on it. However, if that relative wants to get married, buried, etc, having "Jewish" on their id card does not guarantee they will be treated as a Jew. If any suspicions are raised, that person's background can be investigated and it is quite possible for them to find themselves unable to legally marry in Israel at all, or to be buried in a Jewish cemetary. Cyprus does good business from Israeli couples who go there to get married because they aren't allowed to be married in Israel or because they are secular and don't want a religious ceremony. Such overseas marriages are at least recognised by Israel when they return. --Zero 23:08, 2 Dec 2003 (UTC)
Is there a "field" for "religion" or "natioinality" or both?24.64.166.191 08:04, 11 Jun 2005 (UTC)
You said above that "Identity cards don't show religious belief". But regardless of the id cards, people are classified for purposes of marriage, burial, etc. Why are no "official figures" available? and to repeat my question, "Where are they in the ethnic and religious classifications?" Keith from Calgary 06:40, 5 Dec 2003 (UTC)

Literacy:
definition: age 15 and over can read and write
total population: 95%
male: 97%
female: 93% (1992 est.) I think the definition of "literacy" does not fit the numbers: According to the age structure, the definition must be wrong. As 28% of the Israeli population is below 14, it is impossible that 95% of the population is older than 15 and can write. I think the definition of analphabetism could be "age 15 and over and can read and write". If nobody objects, I will change the definition. --zeno 16:03, 1 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Page is getting dated

This page is getting dated. I would like to update it based on numbers at Israel Central Bureau of Statistics. For example, total population:

1996,5757.90
1997,5900.00
1998,6041.40
1999,6209.10
2000,6369.30
2001,6508.80
2002,6631.10 (this is the figure given on this page)
2003,6749.00

Jewish population:

1996,4616.10
1997,4701.60
1998,4785.10
1999,4872.80
2000,4955.40
2001,5025.00
2002,5094.20
2003,5161.50
Sounds like a good idea to me. By the way, you might want to get a userid. Jayjg 04:47, 5 Oct 2004 (UTC)
If I do this it will be controversial. Israel Central Bureau of Statistics includes settlers in the population. They also include tourists (mostly Jewish) but exclude foreign workers (non-Jewish). They also include anyone who has Israeli citizenship or permanent residency who has been in Israel in the last 12 months. They also include "non-Arab Christians" as "Jews and others". The object is clearly to inflate the "Jewish" proportion of the population. If I update this page I will use the standard definitions of population.
"Settlers" are citizens of Israel; I don't see any particular issues with any of the other definitions either, and don't think most other countries do it much differently. Please get as userid. Jayjg 23:46, 11 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Most civilized countries define "population" as the number of people who are actually in the country on census day regardless of legal status (or race, religion or ethnicity). By this definition the Jewish population of Israel is declining and Jews are already a minority in Israel and the (occupied) territories.
"Civilized countries" is a highly POV term. Most countries do not include many people, including guest workers, tourists, illegal immigrants, etc. as part of the population, regardless of whether or not they are in the country on census day. This article is not about the demographics of the territories, other articles already describe that. Jayjg 15:54, 13 Oct 2004 (UTC)
When the ICBS collects population numbers for regions and towns in Israel, they are based on the number of people who actually live there. These numbers are used by governments and companies to plan roads, shopping centres, etc. to accommodate people who actually live there. If you add up these numbers you get a 50% Halacha Jewish population of Eretz Israel. To get the 80% number you have to add the settlers and emigrants and anyone who once had permanent residence status and the "others" (Russian Christians) and subtract non-Jewish foreign workers. I'm not sure about the tourists, I suspect they assume they are all Jewish and make a generous estimate of their numbers to boost the Jewish %.24.64.166.191 06:44, 11 Jun 2005 (UTC)

The problems with ethnic categorization in a state that discriminates by religion

  • 1. The ethnic categories section categorizes Israelis as either Jews (80.9%) or Arabs (19.1%) but Jews and Arabs are not mutually exclusive. Arab is an ethnicity or nationality but Judaism is a religion, not a nationality. It is possible to be both an Arab and a Jew (as mentioned later in the article).
    • Jew is an ethnicity much like Arab (as mentioned in the Jew article. Only revisionist deniers wishing to deligitimize the identity of Jews claim otherwise. Jayjg 04:16, 16 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Judaism is a religion like many others, not a nationality. Only Zionists and Nazis consider Jews a race or nationality; hardly a coincidence that these racist concepts have common 19th century European origins. --Alberuni 05:38, 16 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Judaism is a religion, and Jews are an ethnicity or people, like many others, despite your attempts to deligimitize their peoplehood. The hypocrisy of crying that "Palestinians" are a people and complaining that others are trying to deligitimize their peoplehood, while trying to do the same to Jews, is amusing. Jayjg 20:09, 16 Nov 2004 (UTC)
You need to go to the Ethnic groups article and change the definition: "An ethnic group is a culture or subculture whose members are readily distinguishable by outsiders based on traits originating from a common racial, national, linguistic, or religious source." so it includes Jews. I suggest replacing "or" with "and/or" in a few places.24.64.166.191 04:28, 22 October 2005 (UTC)
You are showing your true colours. What do you mean exactly by "peoplehood" and legitimacy of peoplehood? Give some examples besides Jewish.24.64.166.191 19:32, 20 October 2005 (UTC)
"For a complete list of Jewish ethnic groups, see Jewish ethnic divisions." Then should I change this to "sub-ethnic groups" or "ethnic sub-groups" ?24.64.166.191 04:28, 22 October 2005 (UTC)
  • 2. The figure for "Jewish" includes immigrants from the former USSR who are either Christian or other religion (or none). Does this make sense? Russian Christians are counted as Jews in Israel?
"Note: The figure for "Jewish" includes people who are not classified as "Jewish" by religion. These are mainly immigrants from the former USSR which are either Christian or of unclassified religion." Would it not be more clear, consise and accurate to leave out this note and just say "Non-Arab 80.9%" and also "During the 1990s, the Non-Arab population growth rate was about 3%"?24.64.166.191 18:57, 20 October 2005 (UTC)
I made this suggestion and waited a few days and had no comments so I went ahead and made the change. Now I see someone has reverted it, without any explanation on this talk page. Will the vandal please identify him/herself?24.64.166.191 07:28, 30 October 2005 (UTC)
    • I don't know how the counting works. Jayjg 04:16, 16 Nov 2004 (UTC)
First time you admit ignorance. The description of the ridiculous method was in the Israeli government census page. --Alberuni 05:38, 16 Nov 2004 (UTC)
I'll look if I have time. Jayjg 20:09, 16 Nov 2004 (UTC)
  • 3. "Traditionally" Jews are divided into Ashkenazim, Sephardim, Yemenite Jews. What tradition is this exactly? An Israeli tradition? An Ashkenazi tradition? More specifics here would be useful.
    • Actually there are two or three major distinctions, Ashkenazim and Sepharadim, or perhaps Ashkenazim, Sepharadim, and Mizrahim. It is a Jewish tradition, based on the different histories of the groups. Jayjg 04:16, 16 Nov 2004 (UTC)
You have added no information. It doesn't look like much of a tradition if there are 2 or 3 categories. Which is it? When and where did this Jewish "tradition" arise? Is it an 18th century European construct, (no doubt). --Alberuni 05:38, 16 Nov 2004 (UTC)
LOL! "No doubt". And you have the audacity to claim that I fail to "admit ignorance". The distinctions relate to origins, liturgy, customs, Hebrew dialects, legal codes, etc., and date at least as far back as the 11th century when the distinctions became more pronounced. Jayjg 20:09, 16 Nov 2004 (UTC)
  • 4. Why are Yemenite Jews distinct from Sephardim?
    • Because their ancestors never lived in Spain. Jayjg 04:16, 16 Nov 2004 (UTC)
The Sephardic Jews are descended from the same Arab Jews as the Yemenite Jews, presumably.--Alberuni 05:38, 16 Nov 2004 (UTC)
It's not wise to presume. All Jews descended from the same origins. Yemenite Jews have their own unique history, as do Sephardi Jews and others. Jayjg 20:09, 16 Nov 2004 (UTC)
  • 5. Why are African Jews Sephardim except for South African Jews who are Ashkenazi?
    • South African Jews descended from Lithuanian Ashkenazi Jews. Jayjg 04:16, 16 Nov 2004 (UTC)
This is new information that could go in the article. When did they emigrate and why? --Alberuni 05:38, 16 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Persecution, opportunity; same as all Russian Jews. Jayjg 20:09, 16 Nov 2004 (UTC)
  • 6. Why are European Jews Ashkenazim except for Spain and Portugal Jews who are Sephardim?
    • Ashkenzim went through Rome north through Italy into Germany, and from there eastwards. Sepharadim went through North Africa to Spain with the Arabs/Muslims, then were expelled centuries later to various places. Jayjg 04:16, 16 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Good answer. So you will agree that there are European Jews, right?--Alberuni 05:38, 16 Nov 2004 (UTC)
In what sense? There are Jews who live in Europe now. Jews have lived in various parts of Europe for at least 2,000 years. Jayjg 20:09, 16 Nov 2004 (UTC)
  • 7. Why are Jews from Islamic countries called Oriental Jews except for Jews from Yemen who are Yemenite?
    • Yemenite Jews are also Oriental. Jayjg 04:16, 16 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Now we are getting somewhere. The categories are false distinctions. --Alberuni 05:38, 16 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Why? Yemenite Jews are one of the Oriental Jewish groups. Jayjg 20:09, 16 Nov 2004 (UTC)
  • 8. What is the difference between an Oriental Jew and a Sephardic Jew?
    • Their ancestors never lived in Spain. Jayjg 04:16, 16 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Good answer. So you will agree that there arre Arab Jews, right? --Alberuni 05:38, 16 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Arab Jews in what sense? There are Jews who live in Arab countries now. Jews have lived in various Arab countries or regions for at least 2,000 years. Jayjg 20:09, 16 Nov 2004 (UTC)
  • 9. What do you get when you cross a Sephardim and and Askenazi?
    • A mix. It happens quite regularly. Jayjg 04:16, 16 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Combining false categories results in a "mix". If you are going to maintain your labels on people, you are going tohave to do better than that. If you fail to keep people in their ethnic categories, you may begin to treat Sephardim as if they are equal to Ashkenazi and non-Jews as if they are equal to "mixes".--Alberuni 05:38, 16 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Until recently the groups lived in distinct areas, and mixing was quite rare. In the mid and late 20th century most of the groups emigrated to mixed areas, and naturally individuals from the different groups started marrying each other. I can't make heads or tails of your last statement, it seems to reflect some sort of unclear political gibberish. Jayjg 20:09, 16 Nov 2004 (UTC)
I am very interested in what would be the intermarriage (not to mention the unmarried stuff) and assimiliation % over the preceding centuries. Since Jews were heavily involved in trade and commerce I thought they would be attracted to cosmopolitan trading centres where opportunities for "mixing" would be plentiful.24.64.166.191 07:28, 11 Jun 2005 (UTC)
  • 10. What's the difference between an Israeli Arab and a Jew from an Arab country that emigrates to Israel?
    • Their ancestry and history. Jayjg 04:16, 16 Nov 2004 (UTC)
What is the "ancestry and history" of "Israeli Arabs". These articles are strangely silent on this subject. Could they be descended from the lower class Jews who remained in Palestine after the Romans killed or expelled 25% of the "Jewish" population (the rebellious religious & political elite) in 135?
Yes, that and the fact that the Jew from any Arab country (or anywhere in the world) is granted more rights in Israeli occupied Palestine than an indigenous Israeli Arab who is not a Jew. (Military service, education, jobs, loans, etc, etc). --Alberuni 05:38, 16 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Nonsense not supported by the facts. By the way, Israeli Arabs also serve in the IDF. Jayjg 20:09, 16 Nov 2004 (UTC)

These are some of the questions raised by the false categories created by the racist state of Israel.--Alberuni 23:59, 27 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Actually, those are just questions raised by people who are ignorant of Jews and falsely characterize Israel as racist. Israel didn't invent these categories, and only revisionist deniers who wish to deligitimize the identity of Jews describe them as "false". Jayjg 04:16, 16 Nov 2004 (UTC)
There is no way to delegitimize the identity of Jews. The Jewish identity will always exist as a religion. In fact, Israel does reinforce the categories of Jew versus Arab as if they are mutually exclusive, which they are not, and this categorization is the basis for the discriminatory and oppressive policies of the Jewish state. The Jewish supremacist state policies of Zionist Israel are clearly discriminatory against non-Jews. To claim otherwise is willful ignorance of the privileged class. Zionism is more damaging to Jews than any non-Jew or anti-Semite can be. Of course, fanatic Zionists can never accept this responsibility and will continue pursuing their ideology of Jewish supremacism until Israel totally destroys itself and many of its Jews along with it. --Alberuni 05:38, 16 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Another revisionist denial screed displaying ignorance of Jews and a blatant attempt to deligitimize the identity of Jews. Wikipedia articles are for facts, not for spreading your extremist political beliefs. Jayjg 20:09, 16 Nov 2004 (UTC)
The reason Jew and Arab are frequently considered mutually exclusive is because many Jews from Arab countries are offended when referred to as "Arabs" or "Arab Jews." I have personally seen this phenomenon in the U.S., Canada, Israel, and Germany. (Is that an acceptable citation?) Why are they offended? Is it because they are embarrassed to be associated with the Arab countries rift with tyranny, the countries that, in many cases, these Jews were expelled from or forced to flee for their own safety, leaving behind all their property? Because the society they were a part of for hundreds, if not thousands, of years, suddenly turned on them in the 20th century? (I phrase these as questions because I hope for an honest, reasonable discussion about it. "Palestinian Jew" was also once a common term, referring to Jews living in British-Mandate Palestine, but would now offend them.)
As for claiming that the policies of the State of Israel are discriminatory against non-Jews, I have to disagree. Legally, Jewish citizens (with very few exceptions) are required to serve in the military. Non-Jewish citizens are not required (though many volunteer). Sounds to me like Czarist Russia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cantonist). Why don't you argue that it dsicriminates against the Jews? I'll get a username soon. Till then, I'll identify myself as ZYB so that if I post again, you'll know whom it's coming from. For now, my main point is that the people who would be classifed as both Jews and Arabs are themselves the ones who don't want both designations. Perhaps this is why we distinguish between Ashkanazic and Sephardic Jews when discussing ethnicity/culture. There was mention above of European Jews and Arab Jews, and, while the analysis (Yemenite vs. Sephardic; Spain & Portugal vs. Germany & France) may be accurate, the parties themselves might prefer "Ashkenazic" to "European" and "Sephardic" to "Arab," even if the names aren't always analagous (i.e. "Arab" would not include Iranian, Indian, or Central Asian, while "Sephardic" is often intended to include those groups. Jews indigenous to Jerusalem and Safed, however, would be included in "Arab" and are not always included in "Sephardic"). Does this resolve the disagreements while avoiding (most) political rhetoric?

THE JEWS THAT CAME FROM MOROCCO ARE 150K AND NOT 800K. THIS IS WRONG!!! THEY ARE ONE OF THE SMALLER POPULATIONS IN ISRAEL (They just make noise like they are the majority). Check your data! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 149.88.126.113 (talk) 12:06, 27 December 2014 (UTC)

Link is dead

The population demographic link is dead yet some anon keeps updating Israeli population in the Occupied Territories. [1] --Alberuni 04:05, 16 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Nationality

"noun: Israeli(s) adjective: Israeli"

This is incorrect. I will change it to 19.1% Arab nationality, some% Jewish nationality.24.64.166.191 05:07, 22 October 2005 (UTC)

My revert

I reverted for reasons I explained at Talk:Israel. SlimVirgin (talk) 17:56, 14 November 2005 (UTC)

Adding contradict and cleanup-date templates

The section with the contradict template clearly states two differing statistics for the origins of the Jewish population. The article is generally of low quality with a lot of tiny sections and bad organization.

Edit: the Ethnic Groups section is the self-contradicting one, but I moved the template because it ran into the menu on the side.

--Eitan1989 01:47, 12 January 2006 (UTC)ţ

Groups of people in Israel

The section where it says "...of Israel's 6.9 million people, 76.2% were Jews, 19.5% Arabs..."

I think it should include somewhere that the Arabs are gentiles (Muslims, Christians, Druzes) because obviously there are Israeli-Arab Jews, and they should fall under "Jews", but they are still Arabs at the same time, so they would also fall under "Arabs", and that doesn't work out.

There are Jews from Arab countries but, apart from a very small (and recent) minority, they never identified as Arabs as were never seen as Arabs by the Arabs themselves. Benjil 10:11, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

The non-Jewish foreign worker community

How large is the non-Jewish foreign worker community in Israel?

Don't know, but it's incorrect to call them "immigrants" - "Due to agricultural and construction labor immigrants many signs in rural areas carry Thai and Chinese notices." Of course they are not racially qualified to immigrate to the Jewish state- they are temporary foreign workers who have no possibility of getting citizenship (this would require Thai and Chinese foreign workers being allowed to convert to orthodox judaism, which has never happened - correct me if i'm wrong). Fourtildas 02:48, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
The foreign worker community is currently around 150,000 after reaching 300,000 a few years ago (legal and illegal together). There is no "racial" qualification to immigrate to israel as "jewish" is not a race, and yes there have been cases of foreign workers converting to Judaism. But you can also become an Israeli citizen by way of regular naturalization like in any country, without being Jewish at all. You need at least 5 (or 10 - need to check) years of residence in the country and the approval of the Interior Ministry. Benjil 08:06, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

The Economist reference?

There is this paragraphi in the article:

However, an alternative study by 'The Economist' came up with very different statistics, maintaining that 83.5% of Israelis practice Judaism. More than 31.3% of those believe that Israel was God's gift to a chosen people.

I was unable to find anything confirming this. Can someone provide a reference?

Fouled up population growth rates?

overall: 1.18% (2006 est.)

During the 1990s, the Jewish population growth rate was about 3% per year, as a result of massive immigration to Israel, primarily from the republics of the former Soviet Union. There is also a high population growth rate among certain Jewish groups, especially adherents of Haredi Judaism.

Currently however, the growth rate of the Israeli Muslim population, at 3.3%, is more than double that of the Israeli Jewish population at 1.4%

The above quote says the Jews are increasing at 1.4% per year and the Muslims at 3.3% per year. Normally, the growth rate for the state of Israel should be somewhere between the two values. Instead, we're told it's only 1.18%. Am I missing something? Bogmih 18:43, 7 November 2006 (UTC)


I removed the line "due to a drop in Arab fertility" in the Population growth rate section. The reason why Arab population growth rate has dropped in recent years is probably due to life style changes more than any medical reason. If someone would like to comment about Arab vs. Jewish fertility, they should provide appropriate references.

First please sign your post using ~ 4 times. Regarding the reasons of the drop, from what I understand, the reasons are: 1. the education level of young muslim women is increasing ; they are also starting to work more. 2. the massive cuts in child allocations since 2004. Benjil 09:22, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

esperanto in schools

many schools offer [...] Esperanto.

They do? Surely you jest.

It would seem unlikely that there are many schools today. (But in the 1930s to 1950s there many have been) _In 2016 there wwere 405 members of the Esperanto association. https://kalkulinda.com/2016/12/10/percountry-rates-of-esperanto-speakers/ Wakelamp d[@-@]b (talk)

non jewish eastern europeans

I continually hear about the phenomenon of non-jewish eastern europeans(primarily russians) gwetting into Israel to the extent that there are several hundred thousand christian or secular russians/ex-soviet in Israel. Can anyone who knows verify this or explain how and why that's occuring. Israel has so many demogrpahic peculiarities...

I have 2 more questions as well.

Is there a small Armenian minority in Jerusalem?

Have any Western(or even non-western, yet non-Arab I suppose)Christians immigrated to Israel to be near Christian holy sites? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.150.56.120 (talk) 08:41, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

Yes there is a small Armenian minority in Jerusalem, I believe about 1,500. They have maintained a presence there for centuries. For information on Eastern Europeans (non Jewish) in Israel, see http://migration.ucdavis.edu/MN/more.php?id=1299_0_5_0 --Shamir1 19:41, 13 October 2007 (UTC)

Haaretz article - Israel Jew population up 300.000 in 2007?

"The world Jewish population in 2007 is estimated at 13.2 million people, a rise of some 200,000 over 2006, according to a Jewish People Policy Planning Institute report published Sunday.
In the past year, the number of Diaspora Jews shrank by 100,000, while Israel's Jewish population rose by 300,000. Israel is now the home of 41 percent of worldwide Jewry, the report said."
[ http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/942009.html]
This is four times the growth rate for 2006, is there any truth to this article? Fourtildas (talk) 05:49, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

January 2008.... Huge Huge surprise

See thisThe CBS Israel says that For the month of January in 2008, Of all the births i.e out of 13,216 births, 10,257 births were to Jewish/Other mothers. That is 77.61% of the total. The figure was 70.10% in 2000, 73.05% in 2005, 73.71% in 2006 and 74.31% in 2007. For the first time births to Muslim mothers fell below 20%. (Now 19.59%). Compared to 2007 January Jewish births increased by 6.5% and Muslim births decreased by 9.1%. Just in one single year. Druze births decreased by 8.5%. In 2007, there were 4,482 births to Halachically non-Jewish Russians. Their birth rate also dropped 4.25% for non religious ones and 14.3% for Christians. It is possible that by 2009 or 2010 over 80% of the births will be to Jewish/Russian mothers. (Small number of Jewish women married to Arabs living in Arab towns are counted as Jews.). This is a huge surprise unless there is some statistical error. Axxn (talk) 17:18, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

Why is it surprising? it seems to me that whats happening is what would be expected considering: 1)Muslim birthrate is getting closer to the Jewish one. 2)the fall in Muslim birthrate is mirroring that of neighboring Muslim countries.--Towerdefence (talk) 16:14, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

It's in part the result of cuts to child benefits in recent years - discussed in today's HaAretz here. (Yes, Shahar Ilan has an axe to grind on this one - but he's right on the numbers). Nomoskedasticity (talk) 22:47, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

Historic population development: worth a table?

A table of historic population sizes might be a useful addition, going back to say 1900, and showing how the population has grown decade by decade.

The table might also include a column linking to relevant major migration events in each decade -- eg influx of Jews from Arab lands, release of the Jews from the former Soviet Union, etc. Jheald (talk) 10:08, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

Going back to 1948... it wouldn't make much sense to go back earlier since there was no political entity based upon these borders... But, I think that is very much needed. gren グレン 03:08, 18 July 2008 (UTC)
A table from 1900 to present day for the area covered by the current entities of Israel, the West Bank and Gaza would be interesting. Orpenn (talk) 03:35, 3 June 2010 (UTC)

Arabs section

I'm at a loss to understand recent resistance by Canadian Monkey (talk · contribs) to the following material, firstly:

In the current and most prevalent demographic dichotomy, "Arab Israelis" are understood to comprise inhabitants of Israel of Arab cultural and/or linguisitc heritage of any religious tradition, including most numerously Muslims, Christians, and Druze, but to the exclusion of Jews indigenous to Israel/Palestine of recent Arabic cultural and/or linguistic heritage or (of greater numeric importance) Jewish immigrants from elsewhere in the Arab world (or the Israeli-born descendants of either) who are accounted for solely as Jews along with all other Israeli Jews of any Jewish background.

This is surely manifestly true. The Israeli statistics (eg Israel in figures) classify anybody with Jewish status as "Jewish" - regardless of recent Arabic cultural, genetic and/or linguistic heritage. As there is no double-counting, such individuals are therefore not counted as "Arab" - again, regardless of recent Arabic cultural, genetic and/or linguistic heritage.

It surely is reasonable to note this, to note the sense in which "Arab" is being used in these figures.

Secondly

Arabs citizens of Israel are those Arab-identified inhabitants who remained within Israel's borders during the 1948 Palestinian exodus following the establishment of the state of Israel, including those born within the state borders subsequent to this time, as well as those few who had left during the exodus (or their descendants) who have since re-entered by means accepted as lawful residence by the Israeli state (family reunifications, though this has now been curbed by a recent Supreme Court of Israel decision).
The origin of Israel's Arab-identified inhabitants as autochthonous to Israel/Palestine is a highly politicized issue whose answer is multifaceted and ultimately involves factors including migrations, miscegenation, assimilation, religious conversions, language shift and ethnic identity.

The first paragraph is simply a straight definition of who is considered an Arab. Okay, perhaps the comment about the family reunification is maybe a little snarky (I didn't write any of this), but on the other hand it is factual: see Citizenship and Entry into Israel Law.

The second paragraph notes the difficulties of talking about a population's origins, when there are 14 centuries of history to consider, including migration, intermarriage and religious conversion. It correctly notes that this is a highly politicised issue, with some keen to present the Arab population to the maximum degree as incomers, others to the maximum degree as descendents of an original indigenous population going back essentially to the earliest Canaanites.

Is anyone (Canadian Monkey?) seriously suggesting that what is being said here is anything other than self-evidently true?

Now compare that paragraph to the alternative being canvassed:

Arabs in Israel include descendants of those invaded in 613 and recent 20th century immigrants lived in the land of today's Israel (it was then recognized as Land of Israel) and stayed within Israel's borders during the 1948 Palestinian exodus... Arabs in Israel also include the descendants of those refuges who left the country and returned to Israel soon afterwards.

This is a paragraph which characterises the Arabs in terms of invaders and immigrants, of a land which ought to be thought of as Eretz Israel.

It's expressly following somebody's agenda - an agenda which is loaded, WP:UNDUE and POV-driven. Not acceptable here. Jheald (talk) 19:59, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

Jheald, I saw several paragraphs being removed by an administrator, claiming it was original resource. I subsequently saw you restoring that same text, with an edit summary that said it appeared to be "appropriately cited". I checked the text in question, and without making any judgement with regards to its veracity, clearly saw that most of it was indeed unsourced and uncited, contrary to your edit summary. I proceeded to remove the part that was unsourced, while retaining the parts that were sourced. You then re-inserted the entire text, no longer claiming it is sourced, but stating it is "better" in some ways, or "uncontested". Putting aside these changing pretexts, when an editor removes unsourced material, you may not place it back, still unsourced, simply claiming it is better or "uncontested". Now that you've begun actually discussing your changes on Talk, I have looked at the text in question more closely. I have no objection to the first paragraph, that discusses the term "Arab Israelis". I have a problem with the subtle and not-so subtle POV-pushing in the second paragraph, which you concede is snarky (yet insist on including it). Canadian Monkey (talk) 20:50, 2 June 2008 (UTC)
Many of the formulations in this section were introduced by User:Al-Andalus a few days ago; he appears to believe that in Israel Jews can be Arabs and Arabs can be Jews and was trying to foist this on the Israel page as well. Given that this user appears not to provide sources for anything he/she adds (and declines to provide edit summaries, despite a polite request), I'd be tempted to revert to a version prior to his/her numerous contributions and start from a cleaner slate. Nomoskedasticity (talk) 22:21, 2 June 2008 (UTC)
Well, maybe not - prior to edits by User:Al-Andalus, we find only a short paragraph about Arab invaders and immigrants, and I agree with Jheald that this is pure POV. So perhaps some of what User:Al-Andalus did was useful, though it also contains a different sort of POV. Nomoskedasticity (talk) 22:26, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

I've removed the following commentary as unsourced, POV original research:

The origin of Israel's Arab-identified inhabitants as autochthonous to Israel/Palestine is a highly politicized issue whose answer is multifaceted and ultimately involves factors including migrations, miscegenation, assimilation, religious conversions, language shift and ethnic identity. In the current and most prevalent demographic dichotomy, "Arab Israelis" are understood to comprise inhabitants of Israel of Arab cultural and/or linguisitc heritage of any religious tradition, including most numerously Muslims, Christians, and Druze, but to the exclusion of Jews indigenous to Israel/Palestine of recent Arabic cultural and/or linguistic heritage or (of greater numeric importance) Jewish immigrants from elsewhere in the Arab world (or the Israeli-born descendants of either) who are accounted for solely as Jews along with all other Israeli Jews of any Jewish background.

I've also removed the following:

Among the Arab Israeli population, a subgroup not differentiated by religion, but by lifestyle and origin, are the Bedouins. Religiously, they are accounted for within the 82.9% deemed Muslim Arab Israelis, as the Bedouin are also both Muslim and Arab. However, they are differentiated from the vast majority of Muslim Arab Israelis, and Arab Israelis in general, in that they are more securely known to be Arab both in ethnic identity (language, culture and customs) but also by ancestry (that is, ancestry tracing to Arabia, outside Israel/Palestine). Prior to the establishment of Israel in 1948, there were an estimated 65,000-90,000 Bedouin living in the Negev.[1] Only 11,000 remained after Israel's establishment. These were relocated by the Israeli government in the 1950s and 1960s to an area called the "siyag" (or "closure") made up of relatively infertile land in the northeastern Negev comprising 10% of the Negev desert.[1]

Aside from the original research issues, this article is about the current demographics of Israel, not the history of the Bedouin in Israel.

I've also replaced the bizarre "Arab-identified inhabitants" circumlocution with "Arabs". This article should not be a platform for extreme minority theories. And finally, I've added material on the Druze who, in fact, often do not self-identity as Arab. Jayjg (talk) 00:58, 4 June 2008 (UTC)


Outmigration section

This section is strange and tries to imply some conspiracy to hide the number of Israelis leaving abroad. One source is also overtly anti-Israel and partial, and not academic. First, nobody knows either the exact number of French or Italians living abroad. There are just estimations. Since Israeli law defines a "yored" as someone who has left the country for 4 years, you can only have at best numbers from 5 years ago. Anyway, since the end of the 90's, the CBS has been publishing the number of Israelis who left the country for more than one year. It appears that contrary to what is said here, the numbers are not on the rise. And a few month ago, the CBS published that since 1948, 650,000 Israelis left the country - 20% of them non-Jews. Of them, around 550,000 should still be alive. As only the first generation born outside of Israel enjoys Israeli citizenship according to Israeli law, that means that the number of Israelis abroad is around 750,000 - including Israeli Arabs, and a large share of former new immigrants who just went back home and hardly define themselves as real Israelis. All the data is on the CBS site in Hebrew. I am waiting for more feedback here before I make any change. Benjil (talk) 06:32, 25 June 2008 (UTC)

Here I explain the changes: "According to Nadia Prigat of the Israeli Immigration Absorption Ministry, 760,000 Israelis lived abroad as of 2003, compared to 550,000 in 2000, a possible indication of the impact of the Second Intifada." These figures come from nowhere. Possibly a mix-up of this Nadia Prigat - whose ministry deals with new immigrants, not Israeli leaving the country. Between 2000 and 2003 the number of Israelis abroad increased by some 30,000 not 210,000.

"A range of scholars sources believe that, for whatever reason, the Israeli government estimates Israeli emigration at as much as half the actual number." No source, just some opinion of whoever wrote that, on the verge of conspiracy theory.

Well, no, not conspiracy theory, but yes, we can understand that the ICBS might be motivated to undercount - the number of Israelis abroad is extremely large proportional to the size of the country, almost constituting an exodus. If the actual figures were fully known, people might ask why so many Jews decide to depart from the country in which they are to feel most at home. Yes, my inclusion of this perspective (which is not a minority view) was indeed intended, not to suggest answers, but to allow the wikipedia visitor to consider the issue for themselves (rather than blocking the possibility of their becoming aware of fact that the official data is contested). If you don't like the Washington Report on Middle East Affairs, perhaps the New York Times will do? I will find the relevant source. LamaLoLeshLa (talk) 01:52, 27 June 2008 (UTC)
A source is *not* a newspaper article. If we have academic or official figures and some journalist rants based on rumors that contradicts them - we do not put them on the same level. The ICBS is a very serious institution, and recognized as such by everybody and your accusations are unfounded. They give the numbers as they are, so unless you have serious facts to base this accusation, and not "some scholars", it won't be here. Benjil (talk) 07:19, 27 June 2008 (UTC)
Did you write this before or after I inserted Stephen Gold, sociologist, as a source?LamaLoLeshLa (talk) 04:59, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

"According to demographer Ian S. Lustick, in 2005 21,500 Israelis emigrated and 10,500 returned from abroad;" Already cited, and not from Lustick but from the CBS.

"at the time the total number of Israeli emigrants living abroad was around 900,000 including their foreign born children. In the 1990-2001 period alone 270,000 Israelis emigrated abroad, of which 68,000 were of FSU origin.[3]" Contradict the data from the CBS that states that between 1990 and 2005, 230,000 Israelis emigrated abroad.

"60% of Israeli emigrants have moved to America; one source estimates that as of 2004, approximately 1.2 million Israelis lived in the United States." Unsourced, and the number is by all account not serious.

"60% of Israeli emigrants have moved to America; one source estimates that as of 2004, approximately 1.2 million Israelis lived in the United States.[2]" If you don't like the source, say so, don't charge the data with being unsourced. This sentence was clearly sourced.LamaLoLeshLa (talk) 04:58, 30 June 2008 (UTC)
Same as before: "One source estimates" is not serious sourcing. From where does this figure comes ? And anybody having a minimal knowledge of facts can say this number is out of the realm of reality. Benjil (talk) 07:19, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

"The largest community of Israelis outside of Israel exists in Los Angeles, California.[citation needed] New York City hosts another large Israeli community." Unsourced.

"In 2008, at New York City's annual Salute to Israel Parade celebrating 60 years of independence, Israelis were overall conspicuously absent from the 50,000-person procession; the reason, according to the New York Times, was disillusionment and disaffection regarding their place of birth.[5] Reasons for emigration vary, but generally relate to a combination of economic and political concerns."

Irrelevant and just opinion.Benjil (talk) 20:33, 26 June 2008 (UTC)

References

  1. ^ a b Cite error: The named reference Bedouin was invoked but never defined (see the help page).
  2. ^ Andrew I. Killgore."Facts on the Ground: A Jewish Exodus from Israel" Washington Report on Middle East Affairs, March 2004, pp.18-20

Citations

Almost none of this article is sourced, and clearly has remained unsourced for quite some time. Considering that the whole article is composed of statistics, I can't see how this can be justified. Why should anyone trust these figures? Whoever painstakingly added all these figures, please painstakingly add their sources, thanks. LamaLoLeshLa (talk) 02:12, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

Demographic Policies

The Demographic policies section is comprised mostly of talk about the Citizenship and Entry Law. Surely there are many government policies dealing with demographics that are much more important than this? (The Law of Return would form a starting point - but is not even mentioned). There is a link under the heading to Demographic threat (Israel), which, however, also fails to give any real and current policies (just talk of mass transfer and such in the future). I understand having a section on policies the government implements to affect demographics in a Demographics of Israel article - this being more important to Israel than most nations - but if we do, it should at least start with what is significant and important, ?. - Matthew238 (talk) 01:51, 27 July 2008 (UTC)

The two points mentioned under that heading are explicitly related to demographics, and so are very relevant. Also, the Citizenship Law deals with tens of thousands of families. It is not a small matter. I agree the Law of Return should be discussed. Please feel free to add it in! LamaLoLeshLa (talk) 17:08, 27 July 2008 (UTC)

Percentage Arab?

I don't see where there is a percentage given to Arabs. I see those of Muslims, unless the article is saying all Arabs are Muslims?MPA 17:22, 15 March 2009 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by MPA (talk • contribs)

Not all arabs are muslim (some are Christian arabs - about 11-12% of arabs), and of course not all muslims are arabs, though arab muslims are a majority group among them (there are also Circassian muslims for example).Greyshark09 (talk) 05:57, 24 May 2010 (UTC)

Persian?

Just curious, is the Persian language spoken much in Israel? I've seen some sources suggesting about 3% of Israelis are of Iranian descent (Iranian Jews), so is it common to hear Persian spoken there? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.194.5.148 (talk) 23:16, 21 April 2009 (UTC)

Yes, it is, especially among the older generation, but also among the younger one who came to Israel in the 90's and the 2000's. 77.124.215.205 (talk) 17:20, 20 February 2010 (UTC) - 20.3 percent of the population of Israel are Arab —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.73.5.66 (talk) 05:06, 4 December 2010 (UTC)

Dom people

I've never heard of this group in my life. That is why I am suspicious of the data presented here. Please supply more relaible sources which would back up this data or else it would be removed. TheCuriousGnome (talk) 14:36, 18 March 2010 (UTC)

Perhaps you are not as curious as your name suggests. I would say that if you don't find something in Wikipedia every time you use it that you have "never heard ... in my life", then you aren't using the encyclopedia to its full potential. Simply click on the Dom link and the article not only explains who they are but includes sources and images of Dom in Jerusalem of all places. 75.41.110.200 (talk) 15:07, 23 March 2010 (UTC)
You need to supply official references from the state of Israel which would clearly indicate the number of Dom people whom live in Israel. Any other references are not acceptable. Good luck! TheCuriousGnome (talk) 15:17, 23 March 2010 (UTC)

Statistics on the origins of the Jews in Israel?

I would be esp. interested to know which percentages arrived from countries in Israel's early stage, i. e. how many arrived from e. g. liberated Europe, from countries like the USA where they had already lived for a prolonged time, from exile due to the WW2 etc.

Are there valid numbers on this? Thanks. -- 91.11.233.202 (talk) 17:47, 29 April 2010 (UTC)

You can find these on the Israeli Central Bureau Of Statistics: www.cbs.gov.il. Good luck if you don't speak Hebrew. Benjil (talk) 12:37, 9 May 2010 (UTC)
Some tables in English at [2] and [3]. Hope those links work. Zerotalk 07:02, 24 May 2010 (UTC)

Chart illustrating “demographic threat”

Under #Israeli demographic policy, the chart Population of Israel.svg looks very nice, and I don’t doubt the accuracy of the data. But the minimum value of 60% makes it quite misleading at a glance. It’s a common technique to show more data in less space, but in this case if you don’t read the Y scale carefully it looks as if Jews became a minority some time around 2000. It seems to egregiously distort the representation of data to serve a particular agenda. I’m not saying that was the intent, but I think it may easily be perceived that way.

I made a derivative image that shows the full blue area of the data set, and you can see it paints quite a different, and less alarming, demographic picture. I don’t mean that my image ought to be in the article instead. In fact I don’t know what to suggest. I just wanted to point out the insidious distortion. (And btw I have no political viewpoint to convey; I’m only hoping the NPOV can be improved here.) MJ (t • c) 04:58, 6 June 2010 (UTC)

Good work. But I have a problem with the accuracy of the data regarding the "others" category. "Others" include non-halakhically Jewish immigrants from the former USSR and their children and Christians (Arabs and non-Arabs). Before 1990, these were only Christians and I think the chart should separate Christians and "no religion" people from the former soviet union, these are not the same. The former identify as Arabs while the former are more closely identified with the Jewish population. Benjil (talk) 10:48, 6 June 2010 (UTC)
I have swapped the images, there is no point in having what could be construed as a misleading graph. Unomi (talk) 19:38, 11 June 2010 (UTC)
Thanks. I reduced the size, since it seemed possibly obnoxious that large. MJ (t • c) 15:05, 13 June 2010 (UTC)
I see that the graph has been changed but still the true misleading thing about it was not corrected - it aggregates together Christians (Arabs and others) and people without religion who are mostly immigrants from the former USSR who are not halakhically Jewish but many see themselves as Jews and they are part of the secular Jewish population. It gives a false impression about the decline of the Jewish population. This has to be changed. Benjil (talk) 12:29, 29 June 2010 (UTC)
The chart is not flawed becuase it is compiled from the official data of the Israeli Central Bureau of Statistics. [4] If you have any complaints I suggest you contact them. TheCuriousGnome (talk) 14:23, 29 June 2010 (UTC)
Thanks for the data. I checked it and apparently starting from 1996 there is a surge of "Others", i.e. those who do not fall to any of the four categories of:
  • Druze
  • Christian
  • Moslem
  • Jewish

I do get what Benjil is trying to say. Unfortunately s|he has complicated things by mentioning ethnicities instead of sticking strictly to the religions.
If I were to create or modify the chart, I would separate the category "Christians" and "Others".
Thus "Others" would be a 5th category, apparent starting from 1995-1996.
Their number would be taken from the gap between the "Grand Total" and "Druze+Christians+Moslems+Jews".
Marxolang (talk) 00:18, 20 December 2011 (UTC)

You apparently do not understand what I am saying. The ICBS does distinguish in all its sources Christians (mostly Arabs but also from the former USSR) and "others" - people without official religion but usually of Jewish origins. This graph does not. There is no logic in putting together Arabs and Russians when these latter are part of the general Jewish population. So in fact this graph is *not* consistent with the ICBS data. Benjil (talk) 18:01, 29 June 2010 (UTC)
Please examine the data provided in this link again. The population group which consists of Ethnic Jews immigrants not considered Jewish under halakha (many of which immigrated to Israel with non-Jewish spouses) as well as their non-Jewish descendants (under halakha) are not registered by the state of Israel (as well as the Israeli Central Bureau of Statistics) as "Jewish" and instead they are simply not classified by religion. Does anyone else beside Benjil think I have misread the official data of the Israeli Central Bureau of Statistics? TheCuriousGnome (talk) 18:42, 29 June 2010 (UTC)
Examine the data yourself and compare it to the graph. These people without religion are classified in the graph with the Christians when in the data of the ICBS they are not. In the link you gave they are just nowhere but they are usually separated or put with the Jess like here [5]. Is it clear to you now ? Benjil (talk) 19:39, 29 June 2010 (UTC)
The ICBS link which I provided (on which the chart is based on) includes the following religious groups - Jews, Muslims, Druze and Christians (The "Others" group is the remaining population). Even though the ICBS link which you provided does consists of data (only from the year 2008) which includes non-Arab Christians AND those not classified by religion, the non-Arab Christian population in that source includes Christians with absolutely no affiliation to the Jewish population group (there are also many Christians in Israel whom are not former soviet ethic Jews or married to them), it does not present population data from a wide range of years, it does not include the Druze or Arab Christians. It is merely a comparison between Jews (under halakha), non-Arab Christians and those not classified by religion to the Arab population in the year 2008. If you would happen to find a source on the ICBS website which has a comparison of the data you are talking about, please do share it with us so that we might consider generating an additional chart. TheCuriousGnome (talk) 20:40, 29 June 2010 (UTC)

I was just giving you an example showing that the ICBS does separate "Others" from Christians and even add them to the Jewish population. The main problem is that until 1995 the ICBS included the "Others" with the Arabs and anyway there were almost no "Others" before that. But you can find the data from the link you gave - this is the gap between adding Jews, Christians, Muslims, Druzes and the total number. I am just explaining that adding together Christians (mostly Arabs) and Russians of Jewish origins but not strictly Jewish as it is in the current graph is misleading.Benjil (talk) 08:52, 30 June 2010 (UTC) This link may help: [6] Benjil (talk) 08:55, 30 June 2010 (UTC)

I believe you are wrong – the two sources compare different things - one source has a comparison based on religion while the other has a comparison based on ethnicity (as in non-Arabs compared to the Arab population). According to my understanding these sources do not contain enough data to create a new chart which would have a more detailed comparison (containing data such as Non-Arab Christians, Arab Christians, Non-Arab non-religious people, Arab non-religious people, Arab Jews and Non-Arab Jews). If you think I am wrong, please generate this new table and present it to us.
Either way, in my opinion, showing a comparison of the major religions (even if it does not present their ethnic origin) is not misleading – it is in fact very important because the state of Israel by definition is a Jewish state and therefore the religious affiliation of its citizens is important.
We could create another chart which would be based on the data from this source [7] which would have a comparison based on the major ethnicities in Israel (Jewish, Arab, others) from 1995 onwards. TheCuriousGnome (talk) 16:27, 30 June 2010 (UTC)
Look, this is starting to be annoying, you obviously have no idea what you are talking about. I use to work with the ICBS in academic research and I know exactly what this data means. I will explain it to you again. As is written in the article 4% of the Israeli population has "no religion" - these people being Olim from the former USSR with Jewish origins. In your graph you put them with the Christians who are mostly Arabs. This is misleading. They should be put aside as another group and not with the Christians. The info is in the link you gave yourself - just add the numbers of all the religions and you will find a gap, and "surprise" this gap is exactly the number of the "Others" from the table I just gave. By the way, in Israel there ethnic and religious data mostly overlap - the Jews of religion are Jews of ethnicity by definition, Muslims, Druzes are all Arabs and most Christians are Arabs. The only difference is the non-Arab Christians. I have no idea how to make a table in Wikipedia so will you please edit this one accordingly thank you. Benjil (talk) 16:52, 30 June 2010 (UTC)
As I said, the two sources compare different things even though they mosly overlap. If you believe I am wrong prove it - create a table with the data ready for us to inspect. I promise to create the final chart for you if the data is correct. TheCuriousGnome (talk) 20:11, 30 June 2010 (UTC)
Do you know how to read ? I won't repeat for the 10th time the same things so just read what is just above and this time, try to understand it and then answer my points. You made no tentative whatsoever to address the issue I am presenting. So unless you do, I will now ignore you. Can someone explain me how to change the graph ? Benjil (talk) 20:47, 30 June 2010 (UTC)
If you download the original .SVG graph, you can open it in a text editor. There may be other, easier ways but it should be pretty straight forward. http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/4a/Population_of_Israel.svg Unomi (talk) 05:52, 6 July 2010 (UTC)

Original chart updated to 2009, maybe the derivative needs to be updated too.Demmo (talk) 10:09, 8 May 2011 (UTC)

Arabs in East Jerusalem

The "Total population" section says that 250,000 Arabs in East Jerusalem are counted as a part of total Israeli population. Why? Are they citizens of Israel? I thought they were counted as citizens of Palestine (together with West Bank and Gaza Strip Palestinians). 85.70.117.103 (talk) 06:58, 7 June 2010 (UTC)

They are "permanent residents" of Israel but not citizens. They are counted among the Israeli population, but the Palestinian Authority do also count them among the Palestinian population.Benjil (talk) 10:14, 7 June 2010 (UTC)
85.70.117.103 in any case the article is about demographics of Israel and not citizenship. To my your above post validates much of the content of Israel and the apartheid analogy. Everyone is equal. We can redefine the map of Israel and change the demographic parameters but both changes would have to occur together. GregKaye 11:50, 17 January 2015 (UTC)

Calculation

The first paragraph states that "However in reality, 17.8% were Arabs (About 1,148,710 inhabitants) and 375,190 are Syriac." 1,148,710 / 7,509,800 = 15.3%. So either the number of Arabs is wrong or the percentage is. — Preceding unsigned comment added by ThePhantomCopyEditor (talk • contribs) 03:46, 11 December 2010 (UTC)

Actually what doesn't make sense is the use of the ward Syriac Christians... For any statistic purpose, it is called ARAB CHRISTIANS and NON-ARAB CHRISTIANS (European and Russian), the person who did use the expression Syriac is doing it out of political and philosophical reasons. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.119.194.199 (talk) 06:16, 4 January 2011 (UTC)

"Syriac Christian" is a viable meta-denominational designation for a member of a Syriac Christian group, i.e. one that makes liturgical use of the Syriac language. More than that, few Syriacs considers themselves Arab. The distinction isn't just linguistic and religious but ethnoreligious, with account for descent. Haven't checked the data on Maronites, but Assyrians at least are even genetically distinct compared to other Middle Easterners. To some degree (a lesser one, I suppose), even Christian Palestinian Arabs are genetically distinct from Muslim Palestinian Arabs, which isn't surprising because the Palestinians are a mixture of different peoples while Middle Easterners are usually endogamous within their religious groups. 213.109.230.96 (talk) 03:16, 25 November 2014 (UTC)

Skin Colour

Are there no figures for the percentage of white and non-white citzens of Israel? Why is it all just religious stats? 94.8.127.106 (talk) 23:47, 20 January 2011 (UTC)

I don't believe Israel keeps track of that statistic. I'm not sure how useful such a statistic would be; about half of native born Israelis are descended from Jews born in the Middle East and Africa. So if Arabs are considered as "nonwhite", so are they. You can probably get a rough idea by dividing the Jewish population in half and adding it to the Arab population (assuming that all Christians and Muslims are Arab, which is not entirely true but adequate for an estimate). That would give a figure of about 58% nonwhite. Drmikeh49 (talk) 23:32, 2 September 2011 (UTC)

oops, I meant to say about half of all Jewish Israelis, not half of "native born" Israelis. Drmikeh49 (talk) 02:40, 6 September 2011 (UTC)

Breakdown of the Jewish population

What are the percentages for Mizrachim, Ashkenazim and Sephardim of the total Jewish population? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Liquidpappe (talk • contribs) 09:26, 5 February 2011 (UTC)

Muslim percentage

I find it rather odd that the section on religious affiliation ([8]) gives only a percentage of Muslim % by time. Something for relevant would be the % of Arabs (which are a non-religious group) or % of Jews.Wheatsing (talk) 01:32, 15 June 2011 (UTC)

I removed the line with "1946" data from the chart under "religious affiliation". First of all, the State of Israel did not exist in 1946 so the number is irrelevant to this article, though it may be relevant to those with a particular political agenda. Second, that data covered the entire extent of the British Mandate for Palestine, which is a different area than covered in the rest of the same chart, so it is not comparing the same population. Drmikeh49 (talk) 22:01, 13 August 2011 (UTC)

Universities and number of student statistics

More than half of 1st and 2nd academic degrees in Israel are acquired in non-researching educational organizations. Consequently, the number of non-researching educational organizations should be stated along with universities, and number of thier students should be added up to the Israeli student statistics. Nemanov (talk) 13:00, 29 December 2011 (UTC)

Russian immigration

I found this source [1] on the Internet that provides more information concerning Russian immigration in Israel. It is mentioned that they represent about a million people and have great influence on the society. I believe the section Israeli demographic policy should be completed with more information.

92.103.38.226 (talk) 12:08, 12 March 2012 (UTC)

References

  1. ^ http://www.princeton.edu/~lisd/publications/wp_russiaseries_hoffman.pdf

Too many Moroccan Jews

800,000 in the Jewish Ethnic Makeup Chart is way to many. THE JEWS THAT CAME FROM MOROCCO ARE 150K AND NOT 800K. THIS IS WRONG!!! THEY ARE ONE OF THE SMALLER POPULATIONS IN ISRAEL (They just make noise like they are the majority). Check your data! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 149.88.126.113 (talk) 12:09, 27 December 2014 (UTC)

Relevance of Gypsy population?

I question the relevance of what couldn't have been more than a dozen gypsies who have snuck into Israel.

couldn't have been? snuck in? substantiation? Signing posts? GregKaye 11:39, 17 January 2015 (UTC)

Secularity of Jews and belief in God

Saying that "%80" of Israeli Jews belief in God is (1) not cited and (2) totally irrelevant. The distinction in Israel is between religious, traditional, and secular Jews. According to Israel's official statistics (from Hebrew wikipedia) %43 define themselves as "not religious" or "secular", 38% are traditional, and %19 are religious. 77.127.186.147 (talk) 15:57, 12 April 2014 (UTC)

Agreed, partly. Citation is needed, as well as clarification that theology is not what defines personal "secularity" (חִלוֹנִיוּת) in Israeli society. In fact, based on the percentages you've cited, it's numerically inferable that more than half of "secular" Israeli Jews are theists. Among American Jewry, for example, the distinction is rather one of observance. Still, I would not at all consider belief in God a "totally irrelevant" parameter in a comprehensive article on demographics, seeing that it's treated as an important element of religion in both the West and the Middle East. We're not Buddhists, you know. 213.109.230.96 (talk) 03:53, 25 November 2014 (UTC)

Ethnic Makeup of Jewish Population of Israel - statistics

The statistics are based on the table in footnote 23. But if you go and check the table, they are totally different from what is written on this page. There seems to have been an inputting error when writing it on the wikipedia page. Would someone be able to go through and redo it all? 69.121.12.40 (talk) 02:06, 25 June 2014 (UTC)

The issue is complex: there is no data about the exact "ethnic" make-up of Israel among Jews. The ICBS keeps data about the country of origin of immigrants or the father of children of immigrants. But it dos not tell us anything about mothers, does not differentiate between Sefaradim and Ashkenazim from the same countries (France for example: most of Jews there are from North Africa but when they immigrate to Israel, they are counted as "European" and so "Ashkenazim"), and of course, there is a high rate of intermarriage between Jews of different communities (already 25% in 1980 and probably at least 50% today). That means that with every passing year the "ethnic make-up" of Israeli Jews is becoming simply non-existant. This issue has been discussed at large in Israel recently in particular in the economic newspapers. See for example Momi Dahan study on the subject. Here is an article on the subject: http://www.globes.co.il/news/article.aspx?did=1000884246. Benjil (talk) 06:16, 25 June 2014 (UTC)
Nothing complex to report appropriates figures, which does not include any "etchnic" consideration, as Sefaradim or Ashkenazim. It just give the father's country origine. When Jewish whose father comes from Africa or Asia are about 20 % in official statistic tables, one's cannot understand why they becomes more than 50 % on Wikipedia. And as far I know, France is not in Asia as stated in the article. --La femme de menage (talk) 10:13, 29 August 2015 (UTC)
Done. I fixed it. --La femme de menage (talk) 15:51, 29 August 2015 (UTC)

GROWTH RATE

FTA:

Israel's annual population growth rate stood at 1.9% in 2013, three times faster than the OECD average of around 0.6%.[3] With an average of 3 children per woman, Israel also has the highest fertility rate in the OECD by a considerable margin, and much higher than the OECD average of 1.7

To me, that reads as two different figures for the OECD's average annual population growth rate - 0.6% and 1.7%. This should be fixed with accurate data. 172.2.130.215 (talk) 06:00, 1 August 2014 (UTC)

1.9% and 0.6% refers to population growth rates. 1.7 (with no percentage sign) refers to the Total Fertility Rate. These are two completely different figures and both are correct. Halma10 (talk) 22:45, 19 August 2014 (UTC)

External links modified

Hello fellow Wikipedians,

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Birth rate`

In the last few days, far too much information has been added to the sub-section on Birth Rate. Please see WP:CONCISE. In order to be compliant with Wikipedia policies and editorial guidelines, including to improve concision, most (not all) of the material in that section needs to be removed. (This is not an opinion against the validity or importance of the material, perhaps this content should be posted on a website somewhere {e.g. a government-affiliated website or a blog etc}, or in a book or a paper/ article, but most of this material is not suitable for Wikipedia.) Ijon Tichy (talk) 16:03, 7 September 2017 (UTC)

External links modified

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Atheism

The section is misleading. Atheism is Israel is not the same as secular, and Israeli Jews who "believe in the existence of God" are mostly secular. The section doesn't give any significant value for an article about demographics — Preceding unsigned comment added by 162.220.28.130 (talk) 08:15, 10 March 2019 (UTC)

Section on the blacks americans sect in Israël

Hello everybody,

First of all, sorry for my English, because English is not my mother tongue. However, I will still try to present my point of view as accurately and quickly as possible. I read the section of the article on the sect of black Americans present (arrived totally illegally from Liberia to recall it) in Israel and I was highly shocked to see so many errors, there is absolutely NOTHING serious in this section, no sources ,the facts reported are totally false... And especially the substance of the message to understand this sect at no time recalled it. So I decided to correct this article by bringing this time sources... etc. in short by having a real rigorous and non-propagandist approach, but I was surprise to find that each time I made the slightest modification it was immediately deleted without even having time to improve it by bringing later the necessary sources ! This is simply a deliberate desire to vandalize and lie as many people as possible about this population via Wikipedia. I don't find this serious at all. Now I ve brought all the sources needed and this section of the artcile is now the most sourced one.

Thank for your understanding Tskhi (talk) 09:08, 18 April 2019 (UTC)

"Seam Zone"?

Why does the breakdown by region include a separate row for the Seam Zone? Isn't the Seam Zone part of Area C, which itself is part of the West Bank? Are there any publications that present Israel/Palestine's population breakdown in such a manner?--Exjerusalemite (talk) 08:24, 8 July 2019 (UTC)

"Jews vs. Arabs" is nonsense, demographically/statistically speaking.

"Jews" is a religious grouping, at least above all others. "Arabs" is an ethnic grouping, which includes millions of Jews. IOW, they are not directly comparable. Does anyone even give a fuck anymore??? 174.115.100.93 (talk) 16:30, 3 November 2019 (UTC)

Jews are an ethnic group exactly as Arabs and not (just) a religion. There are no Arab Jews, there are Jews from Arab countries but there are not Arabs. As the genetic studies relayed in this article showed, most Jews have common ancestors. Benjil (talk) 21:15, 4 January 2020 (UTC)
First of all arabs in Israel (Druze Chistian and muslims arabs) are not genetically arabs but culturally arabs (as for exemple French are culturally a Latin people but not genetically ). Segondly it depends who do you call jewish . Ashkenazim particullary can from an ethnic group maybe with sefaradim if you extend the definition. But without a doubt a falasha does NOT belong to the same Levantine ethnic group (as have shown all the genetic studies ) that the other Jews so STOP says stupid things . And by the way a lot of people in Israel call themselves "arab jews" (even if it's false from a genetic point of view but true from a cultural point of view ) there is only ashkenazim wich doesn't call themselves "European Jews" (event if it's true culturally speaking ).

"all Jews (Sephardi and Ashkenazi) cluster in one branch; Druze from Mount Lebanon and Druze from Mount Carmel are depicted on a private branch; and Lebanese Christians form a private branch with the Christian populations of Armenia and Cyprus placing the Lebanese Muslims as an outer group. The predominantly Muslim populations of Syrians, Palestinians and Jordanians cluster on branches with other Muslim populations as distant as Morocco and Yemen." source : https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3585000/ Tskhi (talk) 07:51, 24 April 2020 (UTC)

Congoid hebrew Israelite - Negrocentristoidism - Vandalism

Hello everybody,

I ve just learn that i ve been accused of vandalism for editing the part about the congoid Hebrew Israelite.I've just add this section: "racialist faith based on the legend that Hebrews, Assyrians, Arabs, Babylonians... Were from congoid race. They don't reconise the Oral Laws and didn't even know hebrew before tjeir immigration to Israel ;" Wich is totally correct and very well sourced . But for no reason and despite the fact that i ve opened a new topic in the section "Talk" my editing hasn't been accepted and the older version wich is clearly FALSE and in all the case from far less well sourced (i ve brought too external and objective sources ) and despite those facts the older version is yet accepted as true. I would like to know why rigour, righteousness and intellectual precision do not seem to have a place in this part of the article ? --Tskhi (talk) 08:13, 24 April 2020 (UTC)

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