Talk:December 2021 Midwest derecho and tornado outbreak

Weather: Non-tropical / Thunderstorms / Tornadoes Mid‑importance

	Weather portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject Weather, which collaborates on weather and related subjects on Wikipedia. To participate, help improve this article or visit the project page for details. Articles Requested Project Resources Become a Member Project Talk Assessment A-Class Alerts WeatherWikipedia:WikiProject WeatherTemplate:WikiProject WeatherWeather articles
Mid	This article has been rated as Mid-importance on the project's importance scale.
	This article is supported by the Non-tropical storms task force (assessed as Mid-importance).
	Tornadoes portal This article is supported by WikiProject Severe weather (assessed as Mid-importance).

United States: Colorado / Iowa / Nebraska Low‑importance

	United States portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject United States, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of topics relating to the United States of America on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the ongoing discussions. Template Usage Articles Requested! Become a Member Project Talk Alerts United StatesWikipedia:WikiProject United StatesTemplate:WikiProject United StatesUnited States articles
Low	This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale.
	Colorado portal This article is supported by WikiProject Colorado, our collaboration to improve, create, and update Wikipedia articles about the U.S. State of Colorado. To comment about this article, select the New section tab above. For questions about, or to make suggestions for Colorado articles, go to our project's talk page. We invite you to join us!
	Iowa portal This article is supported by WikiProject Iowa.
	Nebraska portal This article is supported by WikiProject Nebraska.

Kansas Low‑importance

	Kansas portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject Kansas, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of the U.S. state of Kansas on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.KansasWikipedia:WikiProject KansasTemplate:WikiProject KansasKansas articles
Low	This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale.

Minnesota Low‑importance

	Minnesota portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject Minnesota, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of articles related to Minnesota on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.MinnesotaWikipedia:WikiProject MinnesotaTemplate:WikiProject MinnesotaMinnesota articles
Low	This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale.

Wisconsin Low‑importance

	Wisconsin portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject Wisconsin, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of the U.S. state of Wisconsin on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.WisconsinWikipedia:WikiProject WisconsinTemplate:WikiProject WisconsinWisconsin articles
Low	This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale.

Disaster management Low‑importance

	This article is within the scope of WikiProject Disaster management, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Disaster management on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.Disaster managementWikipedia:WikiProject Disaster managementTemplate:WikiProject Disaster managementDisaster management articles
Low	This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale.

Daily pageviews of this article

A graph should have been displayed here but graphs are temporarily disabled. Until they are enabled again, visit the interactive graph at pageviews.wmcloud.org

On 12 February 2022, it was proposed that this article be moved to December 2021 North American storm complex. The result of the discussion was no consensus.

Suggested move[edit]

I think the current page should be moved to a different title, since the current one is rather redundant. A derecho is already a storm complex, and "storm complex" article titles are already used for storms with multiple hazard types, including derechos. I might suggest something along the lines of "Mid-December 2021 North American storm complex," though I'm not set on any particular title. TornadoLGS (talk) 21:20, 16 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

That's fine with me - I just moved it to this because I wanted to make it very clear that this was not the tornado outbreak and there was no way for confusion, but I don't care much about where it ends up as long as it doesn't cause confusion. Skarmory (talk • contribs) 22:55, 17 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I would advocate for moving it back to the December 2021 Central United States windstorm like I originally titled it. That covers both convective and non-convective wind elements. TropicalAnalystwx13 (talk · contributions) 02:07, 23 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

If we go with that, I would suggest "windstorm and tornado outbreak" since that aspect of the system turned out to be quite substantial in terms of the sheer number of tornadoes. TornadoLGS (talk) 02:11, 23 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

If we're gonna split them, it's probably best just to go with something like December 2021 Midwest derecho and tornado outbreak then. TropicalAnalystwx13 (talk · contributions) 03:11, 23 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

It was moved. 66.80.252.58 (talk) 19:50, 25 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Addition of GIF[edit]

Could I upload this GIF? This is a radar image of the storm complex and derecho.

However, if this is not efficient, then I can upload a different GIF related to this. Severe storm 28 14:55, 22 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

As far as I’m concerned it’s fine! United States Man (talk) 16:20, 22 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

2 extra deaths?[edit]

Should we add the two deaths caused by the 2021 Kansas wildfire outbreak (which would increase the death toll in the info box to 7?) 108.170.65.170 (talk) 23:28, 4 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@TropicalAnalystwx13 and TornadoLGS: What do you think? I would say no since this is about the derecho and tornadoes, but I don't really have a preference. United States Man (talk) 00:19, 5 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I'd be fine with including them, since we regularly list deaths from flooding etc. related to tornado outbreaks. My only caveat is that they might be considered indirect deaths since other factors, such as drought, contributed to the fires. TornadoLGS (talk) 00:27, 5 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, they should be added to the Kansas windstorm section. TropicalAnalystwx13 (talk · contributions) 01:07, 5 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Obviously, but the question is whether to add them to the infobox. United States Man (talk) 01:10, 5 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I'd say yes in that case, since the Kansas windstorm is discussed as part of the system. TornadoLGS (talk) 02:02, 5 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I'd say add as indirect to the infobox. Skarmory (talk • contribs) 08:05, 5 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Ok, I think it’s safe to add it as indirect then. 108.170.65.170 (talk) 23:08, 5 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move 12 February 2022[edit]

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: no consensus. (closed by non-admin page mover) Colin M (talk) 19:56, 21 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

December 2021 Midwest derecho and tornado outbreak → December 2021 North American storm complex – This storm has 4 parts, a winter storm in the west that caused a significant amount of snowfall, a windstorm in the Great Plains killing 3, a derecho further east and a tornado outbreak. The name as is is kind of long and a hit unnatural and doesn’t take into consideration the whole storm. But this new title would. 69.118.232.58 (talk) 20:19, 12 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Support – The proposed title is more concise, while remaining very accurate. When we name our articles, we want them to be as accurate and as concise as possible. LightandDark2000 🌀 (talk) 00:46, 13 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Support I agree with Lightanddark200's statement, the article name is a "Wordy" name right now, Making it harder to find via searches. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Cyclonicpot (talk • contribs) 18:27, 13 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose The derecho and tornado outbreak have more importance by far compared to the non-thunderstorm winds and snow. Any tornado outbreak page could be renamed into a 'storm complex' article since those outbreaks are typically coming as part of a bigger system with other impacts. However, they're referred to as tornado outbreak pages because that's the most notable aspect. Same thing here. The NCDC entry likewise lists the event as "Midwest derecho and tornado outbreak." TropicalAnalystwx13 (talk · contributions) 18:45, 13 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose proposed title because it is too broad. It would require disambiguation with Tornado outbreak of December 10–11, 2021. I'm neutral on moving it to a "storm complex" title, but it would have to be more specific than the one proposed. TornadoLGS (talk) 18:50, 13 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Weak support I get that the derecho and tornado outbreak stand out from everything else but I’m not really sure how changing the title will make a huge difference. I would consider it a notable complex but I don’t really support changing the title that much but it would be okay. IBlazeCat (talk) 21:19, 13 February 2022 (UTC)iBlazeCat[reply]

Oppose – per TAWX13. United States Man (talk) 23:12, 14 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

125 tornadoes?[edit]

The SPC has just published this graphic on Twitter indicating that there were actually a total of 125 tornadoes from this outbreak. Unfortunately, I couldn't find any more information. Ionmars10 (talk) 20:30, 11 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move 23 May 2024[edit]

It has been proposed in this section that December 2021 Midwest derecho and tornado outbreak be renamed and moved to Tornado outbreak and derecho of December 15–16, 2021.

A bot will list this discussion on requested moves' current discussions subpage within an hour of this tag being placed. The discussion may be closed 7 days after being opened, if consensus has been reached (see the closing instructions). Please base arguments on article title policy, and keep discussion succinct and civil.

Please use {{subst:requested move}}. Do not use {{requested move/dated}} directly.

Links: current log • target log • direct move

December 2021 Midwest derecho and tornado outbreak → Tornado outbreak and derecho of December 15–16, 2021 – Standardize and align per other such articles with a tornado outbreak and derecho combo, such as Tornado outbreak and derecho of April 1–3, 2024 and Derecho and tornado outbreak of April 4–5, 2011. I originally moved it to this boldly, but then @United States Man: reverted it with no explanation. This shouldn’t even be an issue yet here we are because apparently BOLD isn’t a thing anymore I guess. Additionally this title fits far better because it distinguishes the title from the previous outbreak just a few days prior. The current title has no date range which some can confuse some with the other outbreak. MarioProtIV (^talk/_contribs) 02:33, 23 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Since there have been two move and revert cycles, I've move-protected the article for a short time to stop the chain of reverts. Please get consensus before any moves from now on. Acroterion (talk) 02:35, 23 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose – Other tornado outbreak articles such as 2020 Nashville tornado outbreak and December 2023 Tennessee tornado outbreak exist that provide a more descriptive title than random dates as in the proposed title. This article is similar. We should strive to be more descriptive and informative to the reader, not less. There is no required naming convention for tornado articles. United States Man (talk) 02:41, 23 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose This is mainly a tornado outbreak. The derecho is of secondary importance and most tornado outbreak articles include non-tornadic impacts. I'll also add that WP:BOLD says nothing about not reverting bold edits. In fact it says, in not so many words, to follow WP:BRD. TornadoLGS (talk) 02:55, 23 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

For I can't really understand how specifying when the event occurred is "less" descriptive... My main support comes from the fact that there is another December 2021 outbreak (Tornado outbreak of December 10–11, 2021) and the lack of distinction with the other article can lead to confusion.--–uncleben85 (talk) 14:30, 23 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose — NOAA naming convention is different. To respond to Uncleben85’s supporting reason of another tornado outbreak days earlier, NOAA named/described them differently. On NOAA’s Billion Dollar Weather and Climate Disasters list, the Dec 10-11 event is called “Southeast, Central Tornado Outbreak, December 2021” and the December 15-16 event (this article) is named “Midwest Derecho and Tornado Outbreak, December 2021”. The Wikipedia articles follow NOAA’s naming convention, which in this case named this article “December 2021 Midwest derecho and tornado outbreak”, and the December 10-11 event “tornado outbreak”. Any rename to remove “derecho” technically means renaming the event away from an official naming style. For that reason, I have to be a strong oppose to any rename. The Weather Event Writer (Talk Page) 15:10, 23 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The proposal is not to remove "derecho" by any means, but instead to further distinguish the December 15-16 weather events from the the December 10-11 weather events. The NOAA naming conventions at least differentiate between "Southeast" and "Midwest" in both titles. I think the bigger problem here is the inconsistency between one title using a geographic indicator but no specific timescale, and the other using a more precise date but no location indicator. I do not think it is unrealistic to see how confusion may arise between the two. Maybe an alternative support for something like Midwest derecho and tornado outbreak of December 15–16, 2021 would be more appropriate while satisfying conditions of WP:NCWWW –uncleben85 (talk) 15:19, 23 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]