Talk:Criticism of Wikipedia

January 23, 2024 discussion about edit

@GreenMeansGoThe first edit(the edit between lines 33 and 40) I can see reverting, but the second edit( the edit after line 40) removes content for no reason. Shadow311 (talk) 19:10, 23 January 2024 (UTC)

"I reverted back in some stuff I don't agree with once I looked at it" isn't a great start to a conversation. GMG^talk 19:35, 23 January 2024 (UTC)

Criticism in the Telegraph

Wikipedia should focus on content creation – not social justice campaigns Michael G. Lind (talk) 12:15, 28 March 2024 (UTC)

Criticism in Journal of Spatial Information Science article

Reading some literature, I stumbled upon the paper "Trustworthy maps" in the peer reviewed Journal of Spatial Information Science. I'm looking into how it could be incorporated, but thought I'd share. Relevant text states:

"There are many maps of coronavirus case or death counts and/or rates. If one does a Google search on “coronavirus map”, the first result is a map from Wikipedia (Figure 1).The dataset underpinning this map also comes from Wikipedia, and is a mashup of source sof highly varied levels of authority and reliability. Wikipedia, moreover, can be edited by anyone, so the data quality can vary depending on who has contributed the edit, their knowledge of reliable sources, and (sometimes) on their politics or other motivations. In fact, when inspecting the edit history for the Wikipedia page whose information is fed into this map, it was not hard to find one such instance (Figure 2). Although any errors or edits made with political or mischievous motivations may be corrected quickly by other editors, anyone inspecting the map at a particular point in time may be looking at unreliable in-formation, meaning that the trustworthiness of the information as well as the information itself varies dynamically. If one accepts that Wikipedia’s data may not be sufficiently trustworthy, where can one find more authoritative, if slightly less timely, data? Figure 3 is a map published by the World Health Organization (WHO). Although it may also suffer from data quality issues such as different data reporting practices in different countries, it only includes cases that meet the WHO case definition, a data quality standard set by the WHO."

GeogSage ^{(⚔Chat?⚔)} 20:16, 30 March 2024 (UTC)

Musk's opinion (and the "Wokipedia" epithet in general)

@HiLo48: Regarding your removal of the following text and supporting source:

Elon Musk has referred to the platform as "Wokipedia", asserting that its neutrality has been compromised by "wokeness".

Over the past several days, Musk has been on a Twitter rant about Wikipedia ([1], [2], [3]), with some of these tweets being viewed millions or tens of millions of times, and receiving tens of thousands of replies. This is itself a recapitulation of Musk's earlier expression of this opinion, which is documented in reliable sources (I picked the most convenient one). Our inclusion of content is based on the reporting of that content in reliable sources, not any one editor's questioning of whether the sourced content is "of significance". The sources decide that for us, and we don't censor them because the matter reported is attributed to an eccentric figure. BD2412 T 03:19, 19 April 2024 (UTC) BD2412 T 03:19, 19 April 2024 (UTC)

Perhaps the content about Musk needs to include some of the justification you have written above. As it stood, there was no reason given for why anyone should care more about what Musk thinks than what anyone else thinks. Musk is an expert on some things, but not on creating encyclopaedias, so we we need to say why his opinion matters. (If it really does.) HiLo48 (talk) 03:26, 19 April 2024 (UTC)

The justification is that it is important enough to be covered in sources, and that it reflects a current more broadly expressed criticism of Wikipedia characterizing it as "woke". BD2412 T 03:44, 19 April 2024 (UTC)

Don't tell me. Tell the readers. By that, I mean that we need to say in the article why Musk's opinion matters.

@HiLo48: Perhaps we could say something along the lines of: Tech billionaire Elon Musk has been a frequent critic of Wikipedia, referring to the platform as "Wokipedia" to assert that its neutrality has been compromised by "wokeness", and at one point announcing that he would pay the site one billion dollars if it changed its name to "Dickipedia". BD2412 T 19:09, 20 April 2024 (UTC)

References

No. That still doesn't explain why Musk's opinion is of any more significance than anyone else's. HiLo48 (talk) 23:26, 20 April 2024 (UTC)

Is there justification in the article itself for why any of the specific opinions expressed are important enough to be included? Every criticism of Wikipedia is a criticism by someone. BD2412 T 23:33, 20 April 2024 (UTC)

I haven't looked in depth. I am opposed to criticism articles and criticism sections in articles in general for that and other reasons. If someone criticises something, it often says more about the person doing the criticising than whatever it is they are criticising. This about Musk's criticism. I will keep asking why it matters. HiLo48 (talk) 00:12, 21 April 2024 (UTC)

@HiLo48: Suppose, then, that we take Musk out of the equation. Should the criticism of Wikipedia as "woke" be included in the article? BD2412 T 18:27, 21 April 2024 (UTC)

"Woke" is one of those silly, ineffectual insults. The people its aimed at see the attributes that make up being woke as positive things. It's like "leftie". HiLo48 (talk) 23:43, 21 April 2024 (UTC)

Our article on the subject suggests some specifications for the meaning of the insult. I'm not sure what "ineffectual" means in this context, but the proposition seems to be that Wikipedia engages in performative posturing that overcompensates for a perception of bias derived from the characteristics of its editing base. BD2412 T 23:55, 21 April 2024 (UTC)

By "ineffectual", I mean that it generally has no negative impact on whoever it's aimed at. HiLo48 (talk) 00:52, 22 April 2024 (UTC)

You're inferring meaning to someone's one-word derision to make it sound more like real criticism. — Rhododendrites ^talk \\ 00:29, 22 April 2024 (UTC)

Not really, he pretty much says it here. Specifically, he quoted a tweet about Wikipedia abandoning a 'free and open' internet so as not to recapitulate a 'white male Westernized construct', and said that this was "literally the point of Wikipedia". The criticism at issue goes beyond just using the word "woke", and although Musk is the architect of this stream of it, there is plenty of follow-up to his tweets, including by fairly prominent public figures, to the effect that Wikipedia suppresses facts that counter the asserted ideological narrative. BD2412 T 00:43, 22 April 2024 (UTC)

Are the really facts? HiLo48 (talk) 00:55, 22 April 2024 (UTC)

Does it matter, for the purposes of criticism existing as criticism? We have substantial content in the article right now about accusations of Wikipedia being both liberally and conservatively biased, including criticism from the likes of Fox News that Wikipedia has political and ideological biases. We also have coverage of assertions of Wikipedia being biased against minorities. The assertion being made by Musk and echoed by his followers is that Wikipedia has tried to go too far in the opposite direction and become biased against the majority group. BD2412 T 01:01, 22 April 2024 (UTC)

Misunderstandings and insults do not count as "criticism". They do count as "opposition". Wikipedia definitely suppresses "alternative facts" (also called lies), making it less "free and open" and more reliable than the internet at large. --Hob Gadling (talk) 11:00, 22 April 2024 (UTC)

@Hob Gadling: Would you say, then, that the place for such content would be an Opposition to Wikipedia article? There seem to be sources sufficient to support having such a thing. BD2412 T 16:24, 22 April 2024 (UTC)

No need to ping me, I have a watchlist. And even if I did not, there is no reason to assume that I would know the answer any better than anybody else. But if you want such an article, I have no probably with you writing it. --Hob Gadling (talk) 05:56, 23 April 2024 (UTC)

[not hilo48 but] IMO we need more criticism than just calling it "woke" to include in the criticism of Wikipedia article. Just saying it's "woke" is both lacking any kind of depth or evidence and a term applied to basically anything conservatives don't like about the left (or history, or race, or gender, or science). By the original definition, the fact that we have articles on slavery, redlining, and don't say the American Civil War is "just about states' rights", we are by definition woke (but that sense of the word was never used as "criticism"). Aside: I was about to give an example and accidentally chose one that was about the WMF, which made me realize we surprisingly don't have something like criticism of the Wikimedia Foundation. Not sure it's notable, but my example didn't actually concern Wikipedia so omitting it for now. In general, we need more then a one-word political diss. — Rhododendrites ^talk \\ 19:33, 21 April 2024 (UTC)

Is Musk aware of Wookiepedia or is that part of the joke unintentional? Horse Eye's Back (talk) 20:42, 20 April 2024 (UTC)

Is Musk calling Wikipedia "wokipedia" "criticism"? Is that the scope of this article? If another celebrity said "Wikipedia sux" and was retweeted enough for a media source to cover it, is that "criticism" worth including? If we had a trolling of Wikipedia article, then it would certainly fit. — Rhododendrites ^talk \\ 20:53, 20 April 2024 (UTC)

@Horse Eye's Back: I see no indication anywhere that Musk is aware of, or referencing Wookiepedia. @Rhododendrites: Musk's trolling is encapsulated with quotes by Musk of other figures asserting that Wikipedia is "woke" and seeks to perpetuate anti-majoritarian politics. If that isn't a criticism, what is it? BD2412 T 21:06, 20 April 2024 (UTC)

I'm looking at the proposed text: Elon Musk has referred to the platform as "Wokipedia", asserting that its neutrality has been compromised by "wokeness". Yes, we include specific criticisms by other people, but what does Musk's "wokipedia" add? I'm not saying it should be omitted; I'm asking if basic trolling like that is the kind of "criticism" this article seeks to summarize in an encyclopedic way. — Rhododendrites ^talk \\ 21:24, 20 April 2024 (UTC)

I suggest to leave out this sort of trolling altogether. Wikipedia is not an indiscriminate collection of stupid tweets – we have better things to do, I hope, than summarising everything celebrities do to keep being talked about. — kashmīrī ^TALK 21:47, 20 April 2024 (UTC)

If Musk has specific complaints and *tweets about them and reliable sources cover his statements, it would then be worth discussing if his comments belong in the article. Random shit like "he called it Wokepedia" does not belong. He's a guy. His opinion by itself is worth no more than anyone else's. --Onorem (talk) 23:52, 20 April 2024 (UTC)

This article should cover substantive criticism. Not the random musings of a wealthy monopolist who dominates the 21st century megaphone market, and uses his "X" powers to spout banal and uninformed things to his vast audience. Cullen328 (talk) 06:34, 23 April 2024 (UTC)

Second volume of something

Why exactly is the paragraph However, while the second volume of the report issued by the U.S. Senate Intelligence Committee in this article? It essentially says "some people said that someone else did not influence Wikipedia, and some people with a very, very, very long description said that someone influenced something which is not Wikipedia." --Hob Gadling (talk) 09:13, 19 April 2024 (UTC)

It essentially says "some people said that someone else did not influence Wikipedia, and some people with a very, very, very long description said that someone influenced something which is not Wikipedia. Nope. Here's what the content said in reference to Wikipedia:

"However, while the second volume of the report issued by the U.S. Senate Intelligence Committee on Russian interference in the 2016 U.S. presidential election cites a 2016 study published by the NATO Strategic Communications Center of Excellence that found that entities supported by the Russian government have employed paid online trolls to post misleading information on Wikipedia in the context of the Russia-Ukraine conflict, the report did not identify Wikipedia as one of the Web 2.0 services used by the Russian government to influence voters in the 2016 U.S. presidential election."

What it says is that A (the U.S. Senate Intelligence Committee) cited research by B (the NATO Strategic Communications Center of Excellence) that has found that Wikipedia has been subject to internet manipulation by C (the Russian government) for a specific purpose (for the Russia-Ukraine conflict), but that A however did not identify Wikipedia as a Web 2.0 service that been manipulated by C for a different purpose (interference in the 2016 U.S. presidential election). I included the content because it is an example and a non-example of Wikipedia being subject to internet manipulation, although perhaps it would have been better to include the content in the "Commandeering or sanitizing articles" secondary subsection rather than the "Exposure to political operatives and advocates" secondary subsection. -- CommonKnowledgeCreator (talk) 02:39, 24 April 2024 (UTC)

I waded through the paragraph back then without finding any such manipulation of Wikipedia. I only found non-manipulation of Wikipedia and manipulation of something else, as I said. If you reinsert it, could you please cut that part away to leave only the manipulation-of-Wikipedia part? --Hob Gadling (talk) 07:10, 24 April 2024 (UTC)

Here's what the full text said:

"However, while the second volume of the report issued by the U.S. Senate Intelligence Committee on Russian interference in the 2016 U.S. presidential election cites a 2016 study published by the NATO Strategic Communications Center of Excellence that found that entities supported by the Russian government have employed paid online trolls to post misleading information on Wikipedia in the context of the Russia-Ukraine conflict, the report did not identify Wikipedia as one of the Web 2.0 services used by the Russian government to influence voters in the 2016 U.S. presidential election. Instead, like the first volume of the report issued by the Special Counsel investigation into the interference, the joint press statement issued by the U.S. Department of Homeland Security and the Office of the Director of National Intelligence in October 2016, and the declassified assessment released in January 2017 by the U.S. Intelligence Community, the second and fifth volumes of the Senate Intelligence Committee report released in October 2019 and August 2020 respectively concluded that the Russian interference occurred primarily by hacking-and-dumping operations targeting the internal communications of the Democratic National Committee, the Democratic Congressional Campaign Committee, and Clinton campaign officials (specifically John Podesta) and active measures social media campaigns primarily on Facebook and Twitter to influence the electorate to vote for Donald Trump over Hillary Clinton in the general election."

I'd recommend keeping all of the first sentence; I've encountered people in life who believe that Wikipedia was used by the Russian government for the purpose that the report U.S. Senate Intelligence did not identify it as being used for and generally believe it to be a source of false information and fake news. The second sentence can be moved to a footnote for a curious reader's interest. -- CommonKnowledgeCreator (talk) 12:18, 24 April 2024 (UTC)

Is what I've proposed acceptable? -- CommonKnowledgeCreator (talk) 02:57, 25 April 2024 (UTC)

I still do not think it is relevant, but I am not the boss here and others should chime in.

The reason I do not think it is relevant is that it is not criticism of Wikipedia. The core, which I had overlooked the first time because of all the other stuff around it, is "trolls post misleading information". But trolls are not Wikipedia. If they succeeded and the misleading information was there for a long time, pointing that out would be criticism of Wikipedia. --Hob Gadling (talk) 07:18, 25 April 2024 (UTC)

The reason I do not think it is relevant is that it is not criticism of Wikipedia. ... But trolls are not Wikipedia. Do you think the rest of the content in the "Exposure to political operatives and advocates" and "Commandeering or sanitizing articles" secondary subsections is irrelevant? If so, how is the content that I added different in substance from the rest of the content already included there? Both sections discuss Wikipedia being subject to manipulation by state and non-state actors to further their political interests rather than the project's purpose of creating an encyclopedia. -- CommonKnowledgeCreator (talk) 12:24, 25 April 2024 (UTC)

Those parts list clear examples of articles that have been under attack, they are not as vague as the part I removed. But yes, I think they are not criticism of Wikipedia. But you are right that this is where the text in question belongs if it is added.

I wish other people would enter this conversation. --Hob Gadling (talk) 06:42, 26 April 2024 (UTC)

I wish other people would enter this conversation. This is why I wish there was a committee of editors where individual members regularly respond to third opinion requests and resolve disagreements en banc as a panel upon request for an appeal, but other editors here seem not to agree with me that such a committee is needed. -- CommonKnowledgeCreator (talk) 12:16, 26 April 2024 (UTC)