Talk:Criticism of Twelver Shia Islam

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This article was nominated for deletion on 29 November 2010 (UTC). The result of the discussion was keep.

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On 23 March 2022, it was proposed that this article be moved from Criticism of Twelver Shia Islam to Criticism of Shia Islam. The result of the discussion was moved.

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RFC: Disputed Section[edit]

Should the text enclosed in the section headed Disputed Section be included in the article?

Keep your answers in the Survey concise. Robert McClenon (talk) 04:49, 30 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Disputed Section[edit]

Usuli versus Akhbari

Twelvers of the Akhbari and Usuli branches have for centuries debated over the interpretation of religious texts and the responsibilities of Twelver scholars in the absence of the Hidden 12th Imam. This culminated during the latter half of the 18th century with the violent suppression of Akhbari's, especially under the direction of Usuli scholar Muhammad Baqir Behbahani.^[1]^[2]^[3]
On the one hand, Akhbaris (nowadays a small minority) reject the use of reasoning in deriving religious laws and verdicts. They believe the Qur'an and Sunnah (traditions of Muhammad and the Imams) provide all the laws necessary for their followers, and that reasoning is open to errors from imperfect scholars in the absence of an infallible Imam. They also criticise what they see as the transgressions of Twelver scholars, in gradually acquiring for themselves the powers and responsibilities of the Hidden Imam. Some Akhbaris have reported their belief this was, among others explanations, a result of the greed for power and wealth of Usuli scholars over laymen.^[4]
On the other hand, Usulis criticise the rigidity and narrow-mindedness of the Akhbaris and interpret the religious texts and take on much of the roles of the 12th Imam in accordance with the naturally evolving requirements of the Twelver Shia community.^{[citation needed]}

^ Philosophers and Religious Leaders, edited by Christian D. Von Dehsen & Scott L. Harris, page 29
^ Cole, J. R. I. Roots of North Indian Shi'ism in Iran and Iraq: Religion and State in Awadh, 1722-1859. Berkeley: University of California Press, pages 33 & 164
^ The New Encyclopedia of Islam, by Cyril Glassé, page 35
^ J. R. I. Cole (1989). "3.6". Roots of North Indian Shi'ism in Iran and Iraq: Religion and State in Awadh. Berkeley: University of California Press. pp. 165–166. ISBN 978-0520056411.

Disputed section/content is quoted in box above.--Fz^tc_s 05:55, 22 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Survey[edit]

Respond Yes or Keep to include the disputed text. Respond No or Delete to delete the disputed text. Robert McClenon (talk) 04:49, 30 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

No/Delete - disputed content should not be included.

The disputed section is not relevant to current article because it is not criticism of 'Twelver Shia Islam'. The content covers internal controversy/debate/dispute of one school against another (ie between Usuli & Akhbari). Hence, it is out of scope. Also, the content have been already covered in main article Twelver, under sections Akhbari-Usuli Controversies, Akhbari and Usuli schools, etc; and also under individual articles, Akhbari & Usuli. To include it here will give undue weight to it. Also, IMHO, the disputed content comes under false claims of relevance and I'll also want to mention that notability is not relevance.--Fz^tc_s 05:51, 30 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Also, the case being put to include the content under 'precedence of intra-Catholic criticism' falls under other stuff exists; we are under no obligation to take similar approach.

I don't want to repeat everything I said in previous sections, anyone interested for detailed discussion may refer it there. Thanks.--Fz^tc_s 07:43, 30 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Keep: we already have precedence for voluble intra-sect criticism being included within a “Criticism of Religion” Wikipedia article i.e. Criticism of the Catholic Church. Plus, Usulis are the vast majority of Twelvers and the contemporary face of Twelver Shia Islam (even if historically this was not always the case); therefore, this Akhbari criticism can almost be viewed as an outsider’s criticism of Twelver Shi’ism, just like critiques from Ismaili, Zaydi Shia etc. NB.: I am the same IP who has responded to this issue above. 49.180.8.74 (talk) 07:18, 30 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

No/Delete:

I agree with Faizhaider and have previously argued that the content should be deleted due to it not being relevant per WP:ROC. It is a criticism of two sub-sects criticising each other, no criticism is made of the larger tradition that they are both part of, and the objective of this article is to note the "Criticism"s of "Twelver Shia Islam", not controversies between sub-sects inside Twelver Shia Islam, which do not constitute criticism of Twelver Shia Islam as a whole.

Also the comparison with the Criticism of the Catholic Church article is a false analogy, that article documents actual criticism of the church institution itself by Catholics, whereas this is a section of two groups within Twelver Shia Islam criticising each other. It cannot be viewed as criticism of the Twelver Shia, as argued above, as the Akhbari group is part of Twelver Shia Islam! ParthikS8 (talk) 20:32, 30 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

No - since it has been discussed thoroughly in the main article main article Twelver, under sections Akhbari-Usuli Controversies, Akhbari and Usuli schools as pointed out by Fz Idealigic (talk) 06:32, 3 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
No, as mentioned above, this is either covered in other sections or at least should be covered in the other sections.VR _talk 12:27, 18 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Threaded Discussion[edit]

Requested move 23 March 2022[edit]

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: moved. (closed by non-admin page mover) 🐶 EpicPupper ^{(he/him | talk)} 18:26, 7 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Criticism of Twelver Shia Islam → Criticism of Shia Islam – per actual content, the larger part of the article is criticism of Shia Islam by Sunnis, rather than criticism of Twelvers in contrast to other Shia denominations. Marcocapelle (talk) 22:42, 23 March 2022 (UTC) — Relisting. NW1223 <Howl at me•My hunts> 02:31, 31 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Support. Rreagan007 (talk) 19:24, 31 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

[1] Philosophers and Religious Leaders, edited by Christian D. Von Dehsen & Scott L. Harris, page 29

[2] Cole, J. R. I. Roots of North Indian Shi'ism in Iran and Iraq: Religion and State in Awadh, 1722-1859. Berkeley: University of California Press, pages 33 & 164

[3] The New Encyclopedia of Islam, by Cyril Glassé, page 35

[4] J. R. I. Cole (1989). "3.6". Roots of North Indian Shi'ism in Iran and Iraq: Religion and State in Awadh. Berkeley: University of California Press. pp. 165–166. ISBN 978-0520056411.

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