Talk:Chevalier d'Éon

Cleaned up recent gendered pronouns

Just removed the gendered pronouns that had crept in in recent edits: one reference to the Chevalier as "him" in the revision of 12:05 2 March 2018 by 11614soup; and two references to d'Éon as "she" in the revision of 11:01 9 August 2018 by 37.205.58.146, an IP that has many warnings on its talk page about vandalism-- As such, I've also popped a [citation needed] on their edit about there being "little evidence to support" the story. James Hyett (talk) 00:21, 18 August 2018 (UTC)

Reverted to use correct pronouns again. (Redacted) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.30.30.243 (talk) 22:54, 5 October 2022 (UTC)

Do you have a source that shows the person preferred "she/her" pronouns? ... discospinster _talk 22:57, 5 October 2022 (UTC)

There's much discussion and an RfC on this page where the final sentence of the close is "The current article does not use pronouns, and that is good". A new discussion would need to be had to determine if consensus has changed, but the personal attacks and battleground attitude displayed by the IP need to be checked at the door.-- Jezebel's Ponyo^{bons mots} 23:03, 5 October 2022 (UTC)

The evidence is in her own words. She authored an autobiography, which was unfinished, but which is referenced in the book "Monsieur d'Eon is a Woman" by Dr. Gary Kates. In her autobiography she expressly claimed to be a woman. This was one of the last things she wrong before her death, making her gender self ID clear. Given that, the use of female pronouns is the only way for this article to be in keeping with the MOS:GENDERID. Cavegirlsmash (talk) 20:51, 7 November 2022 (UTC)

Sorry last things she "wrote" before her death. Cavegirlsmash (talk) 20:51, 7 November 2022 (UTC)

Again, not all women use she/her pronouns, and if we are going to apply 21st-century gender conceptions in this article then that has to be taken into consideration. ... discospinster _talk 19:56, 8 November 2022 (UTC)

She used she/her pronouns for herself in her own writings. She/her pronouns were used for her by everyone who knew her in life prior to the death and the revelation of her genitals. She/her pronouns are mandated by MOS Gender Identity. Her last known identity, legally, publicly, and personally, was female. By that definition, her pronouns in English are she/her. Cavegirlsmash (talk) 02:07, 9 December 2022 (UTC)

I also agree with using she/her pronouns for d'Eon. She used She/her pronouns for herself, and it is just basic respect to use the correct pronouns for someone, even if that someone is long dead. BlueJadeStorm (talk) 01:51, 27 January 2023 (UTC)

We don't know Eon's thoughts but we do know that a desire to return to France was an overriding consideration, and in order to achieve that, as described in the article, Eon was "made to resume the costume of that sex", a condition to which Eon "submitted". But in protest to that, Eon, despite being dressed in gowns and ruffles, combined the feminine dress with the roughneck attitude and manner of speech of a "grenadier". This is not someone I would call transgender, but then, what I would call Eon has absolutely no relevance here. What is relevant, is what the reliable sources say, and since there isn't a clear majority consensus, the current no-pronoun approach is the best one available to us, even if it fails to satisfy those who prefer masculine pronouns or feminine pronouns. Mathglot (talk) 06:07, 21 June 2023 (UTC)

"androgynous physical characteristics"

The lede is ambiguous as to their biological sex, even though the main body specifies that they had '"male organs in every respect perfectly formed", while at the same time displaying feminine characteristics.' This strongly suggests these "androgynous physical characteristics" were mainly male (certainly in the sense that most readers will perceive the issue). If their biological sex-characteristics is relevcant enough to mention in the lede at all, wouldn't it be better to be less ambiguous in the wording? Ornilnas (talk) 01:37, 8 December 2023 (UTC)

Petitioned the English Courts?

RaphaelQS added this text in July:

After returning to England later in life, d'Éon successfully petitioned the English courts to be legally recognized as a woman, which is seen as one of the earliest instances of legal recognition of a gender transition.

This doesn't seem to be sourced or mentioned in the body of the article. RaphaelQS, do you have a source for this? (I partly ask because, if it's true, it seems evidence that d'Eon did identify as a woman, rather than dressing as a woman purely to satisfy King Louis.) TSP (talk) 02:26, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

This is from the British Museum:

Having been officially designated a woman by both the French and English courts, the sitter returned to France in 1777 and - after considerable protest - d'Eon was resigned to Louis XVI's stipulation that at all times thereafter they dress in female costume. Despite earlier prints showing the Chevalier in female dress, this appears to be the first indisputable record of d'Eon in female clothing. This change led to a shift in attitude from the press and printmakers. D'Eon was now regarded as a heroine, a woman whose patriotic fervour had inspired her to disguise herself in order to fight for her country. D'Eon was compared to Minerva (see 1902,1011.7149 for an example of this iconography in an English print), to an Amazon and to Joan of Arc. Indeed, the autobiography written at the end of d'Eon's life, but not published until 2001, was titled "La Pucelle de Tonnerre" in a direct homage to Joan ('la Pucelle'). For the autobiography, see "The Maiden of Tonnerre", Johns Hopkins University Press, 2001.

(Emphasis mine). --RaphaelQS (talk) 08:43, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

That's quite a long way off the statement in the article, though? It doesn't specify that this recognition took place after d'Eon's return to England in 1786 (given that d'Eon was also in England 1763-77); or that d'Eon petitioned for this; and it's ambiguous whether this refers to the English courts - i.e. the legal system - or the English court - i.e. royalty. Given that the French recognition was by the French court, logic would actually suggest the latter; and a more likely time for it would be before 1777, when d'Eon was at the English royal court. TSP (talk) 11:24, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

@RaphaelQS: I've removed this statement, I'm afraid. I'd love it to be true, but you can't use a source as vague as the one you provided to source the extremely specific statement in the article. TSP (talk) 21:04, 31 January 2024 (UTC)

Pronouns, again

If someone could please provide a reliable source that D'Eon preferred feminine pronouns, or that D'Eon was referred to using feminine pronouns by contemporaries at the time, it would make things a whole lot easier. Otherwise, avoiding pronouns altogether, as the article currently does, is the better option. ... discospinster _talk 00:37, 8 March 2024 (UTC)

I don't really see the need to move away from the current standard, there is no benefit to adding pronoun's where they would barely provide brevity and increase confusion. This was discussed in RfC too. See the header. Antisymmetricnoise (talk) 16:54, 11 March 2024 (UTC)

There are a lot of examples of d'Eon's contemporaries using she/her pronouns for her. Including her brother in law: https://founders.archives.gov/documents/Franklin/01-30-02-0502 She also used she/her pronouns for herself when writing in third person: https://www.britishmuseum.org/collection/object/P_D-1-268-272 Not to start the pronoun wars again but you did ask. AmphibiousThing (talk) 11:53, 25 March 2024 (UTC)

Here is a letter from her (d'Eon's) brother-in-law, using female pronouns for her in 1778, in a letter to Benjamin Franklin.

https://founders.archives.gov/documents/Franklin/01-30-02-0502#BNFN-01-30-02-0502-fn-0003

The time for changing her pronouns to she/her, which she used (in both French and English) from 1777 to her death, is long overdue. 2603:6081:6F00:3A50:0:0:0:81 (talk) 23:42, 6 May 2024 (UTC)

Initially I reverted a change regarding the pronouns used in this article but I sense I've made a mistake here. I do agree and think, considering the use of she/her for her by her contemporaries (as reported in these sources, and the sources saying she lived as a woman, it might be time to use those gendered pronouns for d'Eon. LemurLiterature (talk) 00:03, 7 May 2024 (UTC)

The attempt to modernise, while understandable is serves only to editorialise what is a balanced historically written article. The discussion of d'Éon's life here is comprehensive and well sourced.Antisymmetricnoise (talk) 17:00, 11 March 2024 (UTC)