Talk:Catherine of Aragon/Archive 3

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Archive 1 Archive 2 Archive 3 Archive 4

Unsourced text

This article is lacking in citations and references. I have provided a few, from reliable sources, as well as removing some of the speculations and unnecessary information. The Coronation section needs to be cut down to just a few lines. As it stands now, it reads like a novel.--jeanne (talk) 04:42, 20 October 2008 (UTC)


Speaking of novels, I am moving the note about Charity Bishop's novel to Popular Media and out of the biography block. I think someone misplaced that.GingerSnapsBack (talk) 20:15, 20 January 2009 (UTC)


I took the initiative of striking a couple of uncited lines concerning reactions to the news of Katharine/Catherine's death, and replacing the basic information with something we could reference. I used Warnicke because, unlike some authors, she includes the two different versions of what happened when King Henry learned Catherine died. I thought this was the best way to be neutral and factual, since the accounts contradict each other (one says Henry wore yellow and the other says Anne did, and there are different ideas on what that meant). I did not add back in the frequently repeated claim that yellow was the color for Spanish mourning, because I have not been able to find anything reputable that backs this up, only information to the contrary. If someone has a decent citation and can verify that this is true, please put it back into the article. It seemed like editors here were looking to clean up information without a proper reference. I hope I did not overstep here. GingerSnapsBack (talk) 20:51, 31 January 2009 (UTC) 

"It is a common belief that Catharine was indeed related to Clement VII."  How? What is the citation for this? Mannanan51 (talk) 20:52, 18 February 2011 (UTC) Mannanan51

Charles V

Catherine must have known that by not having produced a healthy male heir she would inevitably be looking at an Annulment/divorce "for reasons of state". In advance of this approaching situation Henry must have sounded out the Pope about the routine annulment usually available to Kings and other heads of state for reasons of state.

There doesn't seem to have been any serious objections and when Catherine did reach menopause, Henry applied to the Pope for the routine annulment. It is at this stage that something seems to have gone wrong. It cannot have been simply the Pope being a prisoner as the armies occuppying Rome were gone after six looting months. Having been released the Pope was desperate for money and would almost certainly have given Henry the routine annulment for the right price.

Charles V was the most powerful man in Europe but just how much support could or would he be willing to give a menopausal aunt in the matter of state that was facing Henry VIII, especially as Henry was initially willing to pension off Catherine. In turn, Catherine would probably have bowed to the Popes anulment and accepted Henry's pension.

There still seems to be some unidentified reason for the whole routine plan going so badly wrong requiring Henrys later religious and political actions.AT Kunene (talk) 09:43, 3 May 2011 (UTC)

Battle of Flodden

This article contains the phrase "...Battle of Flodden, an event in which Catherine played an important part" but in the Battle of Flodden article there is no mention of her, other than to list her as one of the leaders. Either the phrase should be removed, or the Battle of Flodden article should be expanded. Emika22 (talk) 12:12, 24 July 2011 (UTC)

Flodden appears in the section 'Pregnancies and children', in chronological position. I've added a quote from her letter to Wolsey mentioning her role. Regarding the next sentence, she was at Richmond Palace, I doubt she rode further much than 'north of London' to address any troops.Unoquha (talk) 12:54, 24 July 2011 (UTC)

Other details

The History Channel recently broadcast a programme where the medical experts seemed to think that Henry VII and Arthur died of Tuberculosis. Henry (VIII) didn't catch the disease which may have saved his life.

When Henry broke with Rome, the Pope stripped Henry of the title "Defender of the Faith" but according to the professor at the Hampton Court exhibition, Henry gave it back to himself. How this may have affected Catherine is uncertain but his daughter Elizabeth certainly inherited the title and down to the present Queen of England.

Shouldn't Catherines title have been "Ambassdress" following the latin feminine custom in use at the time and still the correct usage.AT Kunene (talk) 14:52, 23 April 2012 (UTC)

According to contemporary reports, Arthur died of a fever of some kind. An important thing to note is that Catherine was also ill, apparently with the same symptoms, at the same time; however, she recovered. If it was TB Arthur had, it's unlikely she would have recovered. I didn't see the programme so I don't know if the content shed any further light on the matter. Deb (talk) 10:57, 30 April 2012 (UTC)

Sources

This article relies heavily on citations to thepeerage.com, which has been discussed at the Reliable Sources Noticeboard WP:RSN and determined that it is not a reliable source, and should not be used as references in articles.[1][2] The citations have been removed, but not the associated text, and tags inserted for the former footnotes. Better sources must be found for this text; text that is not supported by in-line citation to a reliable source may be removed.Fladrif (talk) 22:38, 6 May 2012 (UTC)

Mistake in Chronology

Why was the trouble caused Catherine's father Ferdinand about the dowry and his betrayal of the English cause mentioned after the events of 1520 and directly before Henry wanted an annullment in 1527? Ferdinand died in 1516 and the mentioned events logically happened before this. It might confuse people not familiar with the correct chronology. Tom 11:29, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

Another mistake, she had a still born daughter on New Year's Eve of 1510 and then a son born on New Year's Day of 1511? That is not possible. These dates are incorrect. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.24.254.113 (talk) 03:16, 16 February 2009 (UTC)

Actually, that is possible, though it does not apply to this particular article. A woman CAN be pregnant with twins (boy and girl) and have a stillborn girl at 11:59 on New Year's Eve and a surviving son on New Years Day. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.209.16.67 (talk) 04:53, 29 December 2009 (UTC)

There is an easier reason for the confusion in dates. On the calendar in Tudor times the actual year did not roll over until 25 March. Thus the day following 31 December 1510 would be 1 January 1510. This is the reason why you see so many years during this time written as "4 February 1510/11" because Tudor England would say that was in 1510 while we would say it was 1511. So in Tudor England the dates 31 Dec 1510 and 1 Jan 1511 are separated by a year and a day, but today it can cause much confusion as some historians record the year as the Tudors would have and others record it in the modern usage. History Lunatic (talk) 05:13, 21 January 2013 (UTC) History Lunatic

Titles in full

Sorry, I know this is a bit long, but I hope it's pretty definitive.

Over the last few days something approaching an edit war seems to have broken out over whether or not to include the following titles for Catherine of Aragon in the article: "Queen Consort of England (Which at that time included Wales and Calais), and also for a time Queen Regent of England (Which at that time included Wales and Calais) Princess of Wales, Dowager Princess of Wales, Infanta of Castile, León, Aragon, Majorca, Naples and Valencia, and Barcelona". I believe the proponents of inclusion mean well but are mistaken on several counts. User:62.56.112.43 asked in an edit summary at 11.12 on 4 October 2008 "excuse me but can you actually specify what part of that imformation is wrong? hmm can you": I think I can.

Location of the information

Such a list should not appear in the lead section or in the infobox on the top right of the page, as these areas are for introduction and summary only. Any detailed list of Catherine's titles should be in a separate section further down the page. Template:Infobox British Royalty does actually include a piped link to such a section, under "Detail", but one does not presently exist. User:Chloe2kaii7 did create such a section at 19.23 on 4 October 2008 but this was reverted by User:PatGallacher at 19.46 the same day.

"England (Which at that time included Wales and Calais)"

This is simply wrong: England did not include Wales or Calais at this time.

Though Wales was ruled by the King of England, this was as a separate fief with a separate civil law. Wales was not annexed to England until after Catherine's divorce from Henry; see the article on the Laws in Wales Acts 1535–1542 for more information.

Calais was never part of England; it was the remnant of the English possessions on the Continent which they ruled as claimants to the entire Kingdom of France. See English claims to the French throne for details. Henry VIII's full title during his marriage to Catherine was "King of England and France and Lord of Ireland"; the title Defender of the Faith was added in 1521 (see style of the British sovereign).

"Queen Regent"

Though Catherine may have been regent for the Kingdom in 1513-1514 and was certainly Queen Consort at the time, it does not necessarily follow that she bore the title of Queen Regent. For example, the Prince of Wales was regent of the United Kingdom from 1811 to 1820 and was known as the Prince Regent, but Prince Paul of Yugoslavia, who was regent of that kingdom from 1934 to 1941, was not. User:62.56.53.218 said in an edit summary of 09.48 on 5 October 2008 "Just added her ttles in full they are all factual go check". One should not have to "go check"; if you know she was styled Queen Regent at that time then the onus is on you to provide evidence for it. See WP:PROVEIT.

There is a difference in being regent for a time while ruler is absent from their realm and being regent because the rightful ruler cannot perform their duty. Henry made Katherine his regent while he warred in France, appointing her the final say-so while he was absent from his realm. That is very different from the future George IV being declared Prince Regent because his father was unable to rule. Most often we see a Queen Regent when the ruler is a child, but only if his mother had been Queen Consort and was now given the power to rule in her minor child's name.
In the case of 1513, Katherine was both Queen Consort and Regent, but she was not Queen Regent. History Lunatic (talk) 05:32, 21 January 2013 (UTC)History Lunatic

"Infanta of Castile, León, Aragon, Majorca, Naples and Valencia, and Barcelona"

Catherine's father bore the titles of "King of Aragon, Valencia, Majorca, Sardinia and Corsica, Count of Barcelona, Duke of Athens and Neopatria, Count of Roussillon and Cerdagne and Margrave of Oristano and Goceano". Her mother bore the titles of "Queen of Castile, Leon, Sicily, Toledo, Galicia, Sevilla, Cordova, Murica, Jaen, the Algarves, Algeciras and Gibraltar, Lady of Biscay and Molina". However the Iberian lands listed had long been united under the Crown of Aragon and the Crown of Castile, respectively, and I think it extremely unlikely that Catherine bore the title of Infanta for every one of her parents' notionally independent Kingdoms. Again, if somebody knows differently then he or she has to prove it.

This site, which is quite good for this sort of thing, cites a contemporary example (about five-sixths of the way down the page) in which Catherine is styled "Nos Katherina Princeps Walliæ, Ducissa Cornubiæ, Comitissa Cestriæ, Infans Castellæ & Aragonum, Filia Altissimorum & Potentissimorum Principum Dominorum meorum Domini Ferdinandi & Dominæ Elizabetha Regis & Reginæ Castellæ, Legionis, Aragonum, Siciliæ, Granatæ, &c." Note that though her parents' titles are given in the long form, she herself is still only Infanta of Castile and Aragon.

Summary

To sum up, then, Catherine's titles were:

  • Infanta of Castile and Aragon, from birth in 1485.
  • Princess of Wales, Duchess of Cornwall and Countess of Chester, from her marriage to Arthur Prince of Wales in 1501.
  • Dowager Princess of Wales, from Arthur's brother's creation as Prince in 1504.
  • Queen(-Consort) of England and France, and Lady of Ireland, from her marriage to King Henry VIII in 1509.
  • In 1519 Henry VIII, previously known as "His Grace", adopted the style of Majesty, and presumably Catherine was styled likewise.
  • Dowager Princess of Wales again, from her annulment in 1533 which effectively meant that her marriage in 1509 had never taken place. She never recognised this and continued to consider herself Queen until her death in 1536.

Any other titles attributed to her need sources to back them up. Opera hat (talk) 13:04, 5 October 2008 (UTC)

Discussion

I fully agree with Opera hat. I have added a section called Titles and styles. All of Catherine's titles are summarised there and there is no need to list the in the lead section. Do not include the title of Queen Regent until you can prove that she used that title.

On the other hand, I need to correct Opera hat: Prince Paul of Yugoslavia did hold a special title which distinguished him as a regent. He was styled Njegovo Kraljevsko Visočanstvo Knez Namesnik (English: His Royal Highness The Prince Regent), but that's irrelevant for Catherine of Aragon. Surtsicna (talk) 14:48, 5 October 2008 (UTC)

Whoops! The article on prince regents might need changing for clarification, then. I do tend to rely far too heavily on other wp articles when making contributions: despicable I know. Opera hat (talk) 16:12, 5 October 2008 (UTC)

An example of a regent whose status was not described by his title is Catherine's own father, Ferdinand II of Aragon/V of Castile. He acted as regent for his second daughter, Catherine's sister Joanna the Mad, but he didn't style himself King Regent. What I want to say is that assuming regency doesn't necessarily change person's title. Surtsicna (talk) 14:52, 5 October 2008 (UTC)

I strongly suspect the original contributor confused the term "Queen Regnant" with that of Queen and Regent. Choess (talk) 01:10, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

Portrait of Catherine

I noticed that someone put up a portrait of Catherine Parr in the "King's Great Matter" section and labeled it as Catherine of Aragon. The file clearly identifies it as Catherine Parr, the description on the picture page is incorrect and I had to correct that; the original source that it came from was incorrectly quoted or someone just changed the description without looking at the original source put up by the up loader of the picture. Because other people copy wiki and use it as a "reliable" source it is now on other pages incorrectly identified as Catherine of Aragon. What a disgrace to Catherine Parr.

Catherine Parr Portrait at Lambeth Palace.jpg
Catherine Parr Catherine of Aragon at Lambeth Palace

The Peerage Entry Catherine Parr, The Tudor Place Catherine Parr
It is also identified by the Lambeth Palace online Library site - Catherine Parr Lambeth Palace Painting

Lady Meg (talk) 20:43, 19 October 2010 (UTC)

Update: According to here, dated just the other day (24 Jan 8:44 AM GMT), IT IS Catherine of Aragon. Therefore, I move that it be renamed accordingly in Commons and be re-upped in said "King's Great Matter". Heran et Sang'gres (talk) 18:59, 25 January 2013 (UTC)

I have known for months about this but forgot I even made a comment about this portrait on here. Yes, the portrait is now Katherine of Aragon, but I have no idea how to change file names. I also already took the portrait off of Catherine Parr's page months ago. So I support changing the name and adding it to Katherine of Aragon's page. -- Lady Meg (talk) 20:28, 26 January 2013 (UTC)
Thanks for the heads-up. Even I don't know how to update and edit, and considering that I'm already a 10-year old user of Wiki! Heran et Sang'gres (talk) 04:51, 31 January 2013 (UTC)
P.S. Henry VIII annulled Catherine of Aragon and got rid of her, and now posterity declared they be together for eternity. LOL. I read somewhere that Anne Boleyn's portrait is somewhere besides the legitimate (unhappy) couple. Talk about sarcasm... Heran et Sang'gres (talk) 04:57, 31 January 2013 (UTC)

Henry

Henry is said to have been worried about the lack of a precedent for a female monarch. Boadicea was a female monarch. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 109.156.139.7 (talk) 16:15, 29 May 2013 (UTC)

Ann Boleyn was the main motive. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 109.156.139.7 (talk) 16:17, 29 May 2013 (UTC)
A complicated theory about Matilda and two civil wars appears in the text. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.152.26.92 (talk) 11:24, 30 May 2013 (UTC)
Perhaps Henry was worried about the effects of the rule of Manchu Empress Dowager Cixi in China. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.152.26.92 (talk) 11:35, 30 May 2013 (UTC)
If Henry had known the future, he would have approved of Elizabeth's rule in England. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.152.26.92 (talk) 10:42, 1 June 2013 (UTC)
If Henry was worried about causing another civil war, he succeeded in causing one, in England, in the 17th. century. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 109.156.139.7 (talk) 12:36, 5 June 2013 (UTC)

Requested move 16 January 2015

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: not moved. Favonian (talk) 14:47, 24 January 2015 (UTC)

Catherine of Aragon → Katherine of Aragon – Although this issue has been discussed at length it has never been the subject of a formal move request. The argument is that this spelling (or Katharine) is how she was known at the time and called herself, is used by academic historians, and is still not uncommon in general use. PatGallacher (talk) 19:02, 16 January 2015 (UTC)

  • Oppose per WP:COMMONNAME. Her name has predominantly been spelled Catherine for the past 260 years at least [3]. -- Calidum 19:49, 16 January 2015 (UTC)
  • Oppose. How someone spelt her name 500 years ago in an age without fixed spellings (the article attests five such spellings) is not that relevant (Otherwise, we might have to move Shakespeare to William Shakspear). Go with common usage over the last 100 years or so. —  AjaxSmack  22:09, 17 January 2015 (UTC)
  • Oppose per Calidium and AjaxSmack. She is overwhelmingly known as Catherine now.  — Amakuru (talk) 12:59, 22 January 2015 (UTC)
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Floating Quote

In the middle of the section titled "The King's great matter," there's a quote from Catherine ("My tribulations are so great...") just floating there in italics - not attributed to her, not in quote marks, not obviously related to the text before and after it. I'm reluctant to mess with the article, but perhaps someone else knows where it belongs? Sadiemonster (talk) 14:37, 18 April 2015 (UTC)

Children

Would it have been normal religous practice to give a name to a stillbirth. I detect a peculiar bias on Wikipedia, treating stillbirths among children. Do we need the box since it's all immediately above? PatGallacher (talk) 22:45, 20 November 2015 (UTC)

Assessment comment

The comment(s) below were originally left at Talk:Catherine of Aragon/Comments, and are posted here for posterity. Following several discussions in past years, these subpages are now deprecated. The comments may be irrelevant or outdated; if so, please feel free to remove this section.

I feel this article is lacking sources. Some opinions are unjustified and lack accreditation.

Last edited at 18:20, 29 October 2007 (UTC). Substituted at 11:04, 29 April 2016 (UTC)

Spelling of Name vs General Reliability/Respectability of Wikiepdia

I know that I am going to regret this, but I feel compelled to speak up about what I consider to be the misspelling of the name Katherine. Yes, I have read all the spirited discussions from the past on this topic. And it has repeatedly been correctly asserted in those discussions that the person described by this article quite consistently spelled her own name with a K when signing letters and documents written in England, not a C. Now, maybe I am just stupid, but it seems to me that if a person consistently spells his or her name beginning with a certain letter, it is absurd for persons living 500 years later to think they know better and to change that spelling based on nothing more substantial than the "popularity" of the new spelling. By that standard, every article on Wikipedia should be re-written to reflect the spelling system that has become so popular when using cell phones. Do u c what I mean? There is a reason why Wikipedia has such a bad reputation. Facts are too often ignored in favor of false information that is often more "popular" than the facts. The simple incontrovertible historical FACT is that Henry VIII's first wife consistently spelled the Anglicized form of her own name beginning with a K, NOT a C. 2605:E000:FFC0:3B:1197:2EDC:F482:BF3C (talk) 10:35, 18 June 2016 (UTC)

Removed source and citation...

...that did not confirm statement. The source mentioned, which was added according to this diff and which I removed, is

  • Ibn Khaldun, Viguer María Jesús (1900). The Mediterranean in the 14th century : rise and fall of Empires. The Order of the Sash: From Alfonso XI to the House of Trastamara.

which is actually, this one, with correct name of coordinator, author of chapter, year of publication, etc.:

Page 68, used as citation and which can be viewed in googlebooks, does not support statement about her complexion, color of eyes, hair, etc. --Maragm (talk) 12:18, 6 August 2016 (UTC)

"was inherited by Catherine's mentally unstable elder sister, Joana"

In my understanding Joana supposed went mad after the death of her husband Phillip (on 25th September 1506) which occurred after the death of her mother Isabella I (on 26th November 1504) so she wouldn't have been mentally unstable upon receiving control of Castille even if she later did go mad. WSGB11 (talk) 18:05, 21 November 2016 (UTC)

Date of birth

I come from the German language version in which (until today) the date of birth was given as December 15th, 1485. I have changed the date to December 15th or 16th, as I have not found conclusive answers if there is something like a authoritative date. Her biographer Giles Tremlett: Catherine of Aragon. Henry’s Spanish Queen. Faber and Faber, London 2010, p. 22 leaves the question open. Any help? --Andropov (talk) 20:26, 22 February 2018 (UTC)

Well, Tremlett appears to be somewhat reliable(Anthropology?), according to;
  • "Mary I: England's Catholic Queen", John Edwards, page 1;"On 16 December 1485, at Alcala de Henares in central Spain, a daughter was born to Queen Isabella of Castile and King Ferdinand of Aragon. She was to remain their youngest child, and was named Catalina, after her English great-grandmother, Catherine of Lancaster. The future Catherine of Aragon."
However;
I would have it show, "15/16 December 1485". --Kansas Bear (talk) 22:38, 22 February 2018 (UTC)
Thanks a lot for your input, Kansas Bear! It seems rather strange that John Edwards contradicts himself, but then again, he is writing about Catherine's daughter and will presumably not have researched very thoroughly the date of birth of the mother. Neither does Tremlett cite any specific sources, unfortunately. The ODNB has no doubt that it was the 16th, but I agree with you that it is preferable not to put out any date as given (see de:Katharina von Aragon: „15. oder 16. Dezember“). What would you suggest to do with the date in this article (and with Catherine's birthdate on Wikidata)? --Andropov (talk) 00:04, 23 February 2018 (UTC)


  • "What would you suggest to do with the date in this article (and with Catherine's birthdate on Wikidata)?"
Make the date of birth 15/16 December 1485.
As for Wikidata, no idea. --Kansas Bear (talk) 05:32, 24 February 2018 (UTC)
In his biography of Isabella, Spanish historian Manuel Fernández Álvarez gives Catherine's date of birth as the 16th of December. The source is:
Fernández Álvarez, Manuel (2003). Isabel la Católica. Madrid: Espasa-Calpe, S.A. ISBN 84-670-1260-9. in pages 244-245 and 599. Regards, Maragm (talk) 08:25, 24 February 2018 (UTC)
Thank you both; as there seems to be not one definitive answer given by a consensus of historians, I would continue to treat the question as unresolved. And as I do not know what the usances here are, I would be glad if one of you regulars would change the date of birth in the article. Best regards, --Andropov (talk) 21:23, 25 February 2018 (UTC)

Civil war

We are told that Henry the Eighth was worried about various civil wars. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A00:23C0:FCF6:4801:19E0:151E:E9F8:E8BD (talk) 12:42, 8 June 2018 (UTC)

If female government always causes civil war, there must have been a civil war in China in the 7th. century A.D. Did Henry study Chinese history? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A00:23C0:FCF6:4801:19E0:151E:E9F8:E8BD (talk) 12:48, 8 June 2018 (UTC)
See Wu Zetian. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A00:23C0:FCF6:4801:19E0:151E:E9F8:E8BD (talk) 12:53, 8 June 2018 (UTC)
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