Talk:Carl Jung/Archive 1

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Various

Just replaced a blank page with a stub. Much more needed here! --LDC

   I'm sure I saw the Jungion in a Star Trek chapter :)

Larry Sanger objected to me calling Freud's views 'essentially materialist. I chose those words to describe Jung's dissatisfaction with the (in his eyes) reductionist tendency in Freud. Doesn't Jung's later development show that it is exactly this Freudian materialism that he's trying to get away from? The I Ching, archetypes that live forever in an immaterial 'collective unconscious', alchemy, magic... --Hiram

Well, this is my opinion, and I'm no expert--in fact, I wish some philosopher of psychology would come on the scene and set this all aright. Anyway, if Jung called Freud a materialist, that's one thing; if you are describing Jung's view, that's another. I don't know the facts about that, but what I do know is that it seems very strange to say that someone who bandied about such concepts as the "ego," "id," and "superego" as a materialist. Maybe he was, I don't know, but are you quite sure--I mean, do you have textual evidence from Freud's works? As far as I can tell, he was a "reductionist" only in a very weak sense, i.e., he proposed (allegedly) scientific explanations of mental phenomena. For all I know (again, I wish someone who did know would come and shame me into silence), Freud could be an epiphenomenalist. That is a kind of dualist. --LMS

I know what epiphenomenalism is, my dear colleague... but let's, for the sake of the argument, use the Wikipedia's definition ("Epiphenomenalism is a kind of dualism according to which physical events have mental effects, but mental events have no physical effects"): Freud certainly wasn't an epiphenomenalist. Mental events, according to Freud, were as real as any other type of event, and the very concept of a 'symptom' as used by Freud shows that these mental events do have (even remarkable) "physical effects". Freud would never have allowed mental phenomena to be called by-products of physical realities. This does not mean, however, that he was a dualist, because no-where in Freud's work (somebody correct me if I'm wrong) is there any reference to a special ontological category for mental phenomena. The man was a neurologist, who regarded the mind as the workings of the brain. These workings of the brain, however, do acquire meaningful coherence and allow us to speak of a 'mental life' -- but Freud's insistence on regarding mental processes as meaningful does not constitute an admittance, tacit or otherwise, of any form of existence other than material existence -- not any more than allowing that a book has a story in it can be taken as a dualist view of the book (the paper-and-ink on the one hand, the story on the other). Freud criticized religion and superstition, claiming that the phenomena used to justify dualist ideologies could be sufficiently explained without any reference to some non-material kind of existence. --Hiram

To bring this to a close, let me just say that I never had any doubt that you had a perfectly valid point to make. I'd just like to have the point made more clearly. So the article might include answers to these questions:

   * What did Jung actually say in reaction to Freud?
   * When characterizing Jung's reaction as a reaction to Freud's materialism, are you using your description, or Jung's?

From my study of history of philosophy, I'm interested in issues of textual interpretation, and I'm just concerned about a tendency that philosophers (as it happens--but it's obviously not limited to philosophers) have of imposing their own concepts on historical texts, when their own concepts carry a lot of baggage that cannot really be applied to the historical texts. I'm not saying you disagree with any of this, and I'm not requiring you to agree with any of it--go ahead and restore your text, if you want. I just want to make my views here clear. --LMS

Hey, I'm new here -- etiquette, processes, etc. aren't immediately obvious to me. So, I started a big re-write of the section on Jung. I blew away a lot of the older stuff that was there b/c I couldn't figure out how to integrate it into where I thought the section should go. No toes were aimed at. I've been trying with a good bit of effort to understand Jung's work for about the last 11 years. This is a nice chance to hone with others my understanding and offer what I've got so far in hopes it's useful to anyone else.... Curt.

From a stub under 'Jung':

   Carl Gustav Jung. Psychologist. Founded modern psycho-therapy. Initially learned from Freud but branched out on his own as he found Freud's theories did not explain all his or his patients' experiences.

Removed this (he was a psychiatrist, not a psychologist and the rest is in this article), and redirected to Carl Jung -- The Anome

Carl Gustav Jung or Carl Jung or C. G. Jung

I put Carl Gustav Jung back to Carl Jung, the name by which he is most commonly known. We tend not to use middle names in Wikipedia article titles unless they're well-known. -- Zoe

   ok. I thought he might be one where the middle name would be included, e.g. as in CG Jung. Docu

       I was most surprised to find him as "Carl Jung" here; AFAIK he is most commonly known as "C. G. Jung", at least here in Switzerland. I think he should be listed as "C. G. Jung" with redirects from Carl Gustav Jung and Carl Jung. Gestumblindi 22:50, 29 Jul 2004 (UTC)

       Any objections? Gestumblindi 17:23, 7 Sep 2004 (UTC)

           No! Almost four months have passed, nothing has been done, don't know why. Zoe may be right about what he is called in the United States, but that's what we have got redirects for. It's the same pattern as with Hegel—Georg Hegel (a redirect) just doesn't work. See the Hegel talk page for details.

           As far as the initials are concerned, we need two redirects, with and without space: C.G. Jung and C. G. Jung. <KF> 23:44, Dec 30, 2004 (UTC)

Two most important concepts missing here?

How about these two concepts? (1) Collective unconscious. (2) Archetype. I teach Psychology for a living and these are the two concepts that are most frequently mentioned in Intro textbooks. Even if a textbook only gives Jung a paragraph, chances are very good that these two concepts will make it into that paragraph.

Just a suggestion for when this original article is fleshed out.

-- Greybeard

   Well, we already have articles for collective unconscious and archetype, we just need someone to link them in properly. I assume the collective conscious mentioned in reference to Dune is the same thing as collective unconscious?

   Fordan

Add pronunciation please

Is it /jung/ or /yung/?

   I don't know how /yung/ is supposed to sound, but C.G. Jung (the German word for "young") is pronounced /jung/: /j/ as in "yes", and /u/ as in "put".

"Jung" is pronounced "Yoong" in High German, but do remember that Jung, coming from Switzerland, would have spoken Swiss German. <KF> 23:44, Dec 30, 2004 (UTC)

Publications

Do we need to have Jung-related Chinese publications in English wikipedia? They can go to zh wikipedia. -- Caffelice 23:42, 12 Jan 2005 (UTC)

what about gnostic influences?

i'm sorry, i don't know about etiquette here, but i'm just getting in jung and i'm very curious about his gnostic influences. no one here has even mentioned it. why aren't the seven sermons to the dead and the answer to job listed under his works? those have helped me tremendously in getting a feel for how his theories work.

Place of Birth

Are any of you, gentlemen, certain as to whether Doktor Jung was born in Basel or Kesswil? Anglius Thank you. Carl Gustav Jung was born in Kesswil, in the Swiss canton of Thurgau, on July 26 1875; by the time he was aged four, his family had moved to Basel. I hope this answers your query.

Disorganization

I think all these pages should be reorgainized, if anything merged: Analytical psychology Jungian analysis Jungian psychology

And then linked to Psychoanalysis?

Any one? I would like, but not alone... --pippo2001 07:31, 3 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Biography?????

The discussion of Jung's theories are extensive, but beyond dates of birth and death, there's not the slightest bit of biographical information to be found here. This is a pretty significant omission that really needs to be taken care of. FROM: "Cardamom". I have added a little potted biography of Jung - it is in the section after "Jungian psychology".