Talk:Campfire ash ceremony

A fact from Campfire ash ceremony appeared on Wikipedia's Main Page in the Did you know column on 11 August 2020 (check views). The text of the entry was as follows:

Did you know... that the campfire ash ceremony is a worldwide Scouting service said to date back to Robert Baden-Powell in 1907?

A record of the entry may be seen at Wikipedia:Recent additions/2020/August. The nomination discussion and review may be seen at Template:Did you know nominations/Campfire ash ceremony.

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Sources[edit]

@Nikkimaria, The Squirrel Conspiracy, The C of E, and Rcsprinter123: Currently, this article is sitting at Template:Did you know/Preparation area 6. I don't think the references used are unreliable. I would like to resolve Nikkimaria's latest edits. The issue of the sources was brought up at, Template:Did you know nominations/Campfire ash ceremony. Currently, the sources are as follows:

Bowles, Martha (April 6, 2019). "Lee's Summit Girls Form Scouts BSA Troops". Lee's Summit Tribune - A newspaper
Lord, Daniel (2016). "Campfire Ashes Ceremony". Nighthawks World Brotherhood of Campfire Ashes - A website dedicated to the subject
"Campfire Ash Ceremony". Use Resources Wisely - A resource website for Girl Scout and Cub Scout leaders
"Campfire Ash Ceremony". GS Leader Info - A resource website for Girl Scout leaders
"Campfires - Cheers". MacScouter - A resource website for scout leaders, and part of the USSSP
"Brotherhood of Scouting Campfire Ash Ceremony". russellrazholder.com - Website of a subject matter expert
"Campfire Ash Ceremony". Scouting Web - A resource website for scout leaders

I curated the best sources I could find. Here is a sample: https://www.google.com/search?q=%22Campfire+ash+ceremony%22 The only reason I added the newspaper source was to add an actual publication. I used the best sources available, from topical websites and subject matter experts. I think this can go forward as it is. --evrik ^(talk) 18:05, 4 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

While I appreciate these may have been the best sources you've been able to find, that doesn't make them good sources. How do these meet WP:SPS? Nikkimaria (talk) 02:23, 5 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Most of the sources are websites that are focused on resources to help scout leaders, and I don't think they qualify as "Self-published expert". The MacScouter/USSSP site is a long-standing reputable source. One of the cites come from a published news paper. --evrik ^(talk) 16:34, 5 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The newspaper source aside, why would the others not count as self-published? Their intended purpose is not relevant to that determination. Nikkimaria (talk) 20:29, 5 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@Nikkimaria: do you consider any the the sources reliable? I may be able to strip out anything not reliable" --evrik ^(talk) 00:17, 6 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The Tribune and Scouting. Nikkimaria (talk) 00:19, 6 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Is there another name for the practice, because I am not seeing much in terms of reliable sources that would save this at AfD. --Guerillero | Parlez Moi 22:10, 5 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
This is the most about the practice I can find in Boys Life or in Scouting Magazine. The BSA seems to never mention it; nothing from GS USA either. I know the practice from the 2015 World Scout Jamboree, but I just can't find coverage of it. "Ashes of Friendship" or "Friendship Ashes" seems to be an alternate term, but neither of them seem to bring anything up. --Guerillero | Parlez Moi 22:27, 5 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

A google search for friendships ashes come up with these [1], [2]. Friendship ashes yields [3] and [4]. --evrik ^(talk) 00:00, 6 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I added the scouting magazine ref. That makes one news paper, and one magazine. Discounting the nighthawk ref, the The MacScouter/USSSP site is a long-standing reputable source. --evrik ^(talk) 23:51, 5 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Please note that I swapped this to Prep 4 to give you all time to work this out. — Maile (talk) 22:56, 5 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks. --evrik ^(talk) 23:51, 5 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The Manhattan Mercury newspaper for September 12, 1990, had a small article, "Scout Ceremony Scheduled', which mentions a Girl Scout "rededication campfire and ash ceremony". JGHowes ^talk 18:08, 6 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks. @JGHowes:. @Nikkimaria: I stripped out most of the sources. I left the few that you considered reliable, a couple more news sources. I left in a couple of the less reliable sources that illustrated specific points. Will you object if I remove the tag? --evrik ^(talk) 18:11, 7 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

At this point I would not object to removing the unreliable sources tag, but I think we've reached the point where a linkfarm tag would be appropriate. Nikkimaria (talk) 20:12, 7 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I removed the links, and the tag. Thank you. --evrik ^(talk) 01:10, 8 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

External links removed[edit]

"Girl Scout Traditions: Ash Ceremonies". Blog. Girl Scouts of Western Ohio. 2016-03-14.
WayGroovy (2013-05-30). "[Folkore] Campfire Ashes" – via Reddit.
"Campfire Ash Ceremony". GS Leader Info. Retrieved 2020-07-02.
"Campfire Ash Ceremony". Use Resources Wisely. 2016-09-20.
"Campfire Ash Ceremony". Scouting Web. Retrieved 2020-07-02.

--evrik ^(talk) 01:07, 8 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Comment: I don't see why some of the ceremonial details and traditions mentioned in "Girl Scout Traditions: Ash Ceremonies". and "Campfire Ash Ceremony". are not incorporated into this article and cited as sources for the specific details of this ceremony. While it cannot be used to establish GNG, once notability is established such official Girl Scout "how-to" publications can be used for information about it, as outlined at ABOUTSELF. For example, we could add: The Western Ohio Council of the Girl Scouts of America ~~say, "The main purpose of these~~explained the ash ceremony's purpose is to "bring to the attention of all Girl Scouts and Guides the global sisterhood of Girl Scouts and remind girls that Girl Scouts has an enduring legacy passed down from member to member going back over 100 years", citing Girl Scout Traditions: Ash Ceremonies as a ref. — JGHowes ^talk 01:52, 8 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@Nikkimaria: Is this fact and source okay with you? --evrik ^(talk) 02:17, 8 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

If we're going with an ABOUTSELF claim, we can't attribute quotes from that source to GSA. Nikkimaria (talk) 02:30, 8 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

gswoblog.org is part of the Girl Scout of Western Ohio. Don't ask me why it's separate from gswo.org --evrik ^(talk) 02:35, 8 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

No, I understand that, but is there anything to support that a quote from GSWO should be attributed to GSA? Nikkimaria (talk) 02:59, 8 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Granted, GSWO is a regional or area component of the national organization, probably quoting some national publication we don't have access to online, such as The Girls Guide to Girl Scouting (which delves into GS traditions in greater detail). For the sake of complete accuracy, I've reworded it. Another tidbit that could be added to help flesh out this article, gleaned from Girl Scout Leader Info, is that participants are supposed to keep a written log of each such campfire. JGHowes ^talk 04:18, 8 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

How does that second source meet WP:SPS? Nikkimaria (talk) 14:38, 8 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Nikkimaria, you are right. I was under the mistaken belief it was an official GSUSA pub, but upon reading the website's Home page, I now see that it's indeed SPS. Have removed it. JGHowes ^talk 15:51, 8 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Photo for article[edit]

Might a photo such as this of Scouts gathered around a campfire in Slovenia be better? — JGHowes ^talk 16:07, 8 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I am open to a better picture. Can we find one that is focused on the fire and the fire ring? --evrik ^(talk) 20:33, 8 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]