Talk:Battle of Saint Gotthard (1664)

Military history: Ottoman / Early Modern

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Class assignment[edit]

I'll be editing this battle over the next few weeks as part of a college history class assignment. Feel free to add/subtract but I'd rather you post on this page first. Because I'll be adding over time rather than all at once, there are going to be holes in the page until I am finished. For example, I haven't added citations yet for my information. I also haven't been able to find specific battle casualty figures yet. I'm working on that although information on this battle hasn't been forthcoming.

Have some patience over these two weeks. When I'm done it will look nice :) FightingFalcon 02:44, 21 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Strength of the armies[edit]

"At the battle of Saint Gotthard in August 1664 Raimondo Montecuccolli, supreme commander of a Habsburg force significantly strenghtened by units both from France and the Rhine confederates, still only managed to field an army of some 40,000 men."
Jeremy Black & Rhoads Murphey, Ottoman Warfare, 1500-1700 (page 48-49). Lysandros 18:09, 20 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

"Energetic recruiting had increased Habsburg forces to 51,000 by February 1664, supported by 9,000 Hungarians, but disease and the need to garrison border fortresses reduced the combined force to 24,450 by the time Montecucolli engaged the 50,000-60,000 strong Ottoman army at the Monastery of St Gotthard on the river Raab on 1 August, 1664. [...] Though 30,000 of his troops remained unengaged, the grand visier sensed the battle going against him and decided to retreat, leaving the Christians in possession of the field. Two thousand, mainly Germans, had been lost, along with similar number of fugitives. Turkish losses are not known, but were probably less." Peter H. Wilson, German Armies: War and German Politics, 1648-1806, Routledge, 1998. (p. 43) Lysandros (talk) 19:18, 21 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The "Real" strength[edit]

I have been studying this battle for over a year, both through Austrian and Turkish history. The real fact is that the Turks managed to gather an army of 10,000, while the Austrians, since they were allied with the huge Holy roman empire, France and the league of Rhine, managed to gahter a huge army of 80,000! All the average sizes of the Turkish armies were not more than 10,000, until they started to use mercenaries in battle. There were only Turks in this battle(Battle of Saint Gotthard), which means that they gathered 10,000 soldiers maximum. You might ask me how I can be sure of this, well, if I have studied, analysed and researched a battle for over a year, I belive that my sources should be (is) reliable. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 84.217.76.220 (talk) 18:26, 9 March 2007 (UTC).[reply]

You're telling me that the Ottomans only had 10,000 men at this battle and that the Imperials managed to gather 80,000 troops? Considering the fact that the Austrians never had numerical superiority over the Turks in any of the wars they fought, I find this incredibly hard to believe. Some sources would be nice. FightingFalcon 02:46, 17 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Judging from the time period and the numerous allies which were deployed against the turco-tartars, one must reconsider the numbers. They cannot be neutral in this article. The Europeans must at least have outnumbered the Ottoman-tartars by 2-1. Not the ottoman nor the tartar army could manage to gather such forces because of the circumstances of that period. It should be Unknown rather than utilzing numbers based on early anti-turkish propaganda. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.82.204.197 (talk) 16:31, 24 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]