Talk:Axolotl/Archive 1

Archive 1

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Critically endangered???

Are axolotls really critically endangered? Because if they were I don't think our highschool science class would be allowed to have one as a pet. I mean seriously... --Candy-Panda 07:19, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

As of recently, I believe, surveys have been unable to find any living in the wild at all. They're still commonly bred in captivity, though. Aaronstj 19:38, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

What we see in captivity is the result of more than 100 years of selective breeding. Indeed, most of the axolotls available for use in high school laboratories are albino or carry albinism. This gene was "artificially" introduced into the axolotl by scientific experiments carried out by Professor Humphrey in the mid 20th century using an albino tiger salamander. This alone makes the Axolotl as we know it quite a distinct organism to the original wild species found in Xochimilco. -John Clare of axolotl.org, Mavortium 00:39, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

In addition, recent studies have shown that the "genes" (actually alleles) associated with neoteny are now fixed and linked in captive populations (meaning nearly every individual has all the neoteny genes). The genes are not linked wild axolotls - allowing more transformation and meaning that individuals may have all, some, or none of the associated genes. This is due to transformed individuals being removed from the captive breeding stocks for many generations, causing artificial selection for neoteny. LaurenCole 16:25, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

That's an excellent example of selective breeding. John Clare 19:35, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

"Endangered" means status in the wild -- not zoos, domestication, etc.

References

I added a few references to start. The Ambystoma Genetic Stock Center at the University of Kentucky has excellent resources for this article and should be cited in the captive care and husbandry section.Enviropearson (talk) 16:26, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

Can the "this article doesn't cite sources" tag now be removed? Enviropearson (talk) 16:27, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

Ajolote?

If this is an ajolote, then what is this burrowing creature?[1] I think it's a Mexican Mole Lizard? Should ajolote be a disambig? -- Kendrick7^talk 05:45, 24 June 2008 (UTC)

OK, I've gone ahead and disambiguated this. -- Kendrick7^talk 02:05, 25 June 2008 (UTC)

References

The link to yahoo news does not work. It says there is no such article when you click on it. Something has to be done about this. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.240.179.226 (talk) 22:45, 11 January 2010 (UTC)

Vilem Laufberger

All English sources endlessly repeat "Vilem Laufberger of Germany." Looks incorrect to me - Lauberger was Czech, and at the time of the axolotl research was a medical student at the Charles University in Prague. Will correct unless someone comes up with better info. —Preceding unsigned comment added by V.B. (talk • contribs) 02:39, 14 June 2010 (UTC)

Edit request from 99.129.142.52, 20 April 2010

{{editsemiprotected}} I looked up Axolotl because I think they are simply amazing. I noticed that there is a section on their page noting references in contemporary fiction, so I thought I might make a suggestion. One of my favorite bands from the nineties recorded a song called "Afternoon with the Axolotls" on there final album. It is my favorite song on the album and I don't know how many people would find this interesting, but Hum (the band) was quite popular back then. I just thought it would be a nice addition to the page.

Here is a link to the album's page:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Downward_Is_Heavenward

Also, Julio Cortazar wrote a famous short story titled "Axolotls", about a man who becomes obsessed with axolotls and eventually becomes one. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 174.119.144.210 (talk) 00:29, 7 November 2011 (UTC)

If this is in any way an inappropriate request, I do apologize!  :) I've never used this part of Wikipedia. Thanks for taking your time to review my suggestion and thanks for providing such a valuable resource! 99.129.142.52 (talk) 16:20, 20 April 2010 (UTC)

Looks fine to me - that section is not overburdened at present. Thanks for the tip. - 2/0 (cont.) 18:36, 20 April 2010 (UTC)

Poetic sounding sentance

Is it just me or does this more poetic than fitting an encyclopedia: "Lake Xochimilco remains a diminished glimpse of its former self" Can someone find better wording? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Aether22 (talk • contribs) 21:15, 14 September 2010 (UTC) um I think it means it looks crap — Preceding unsigned comment added by 202.68.167.206 (talk) 09:11, 20 August 2013 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 4 April 2014

I'd like to add citations to the last paragraph in the Habitat and Ecology section of the article, specifically one that supports the description of axolotl feeding behavior.

Wainwright, P. C., et al. (1989). "Evolution of motor patterns: aquatic feeding in salamanders and ray-finned fishes." Brain, behavior and evolution 34(6): 329-341.

AMANITA-BISPORIGERA (talk) 17:18, 4 April 2014 (UTC)

Done Mz7 (talk) 21:00, 4 May 2014 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 15 May 2014

The 4th paragraph states that the Axolotl is extinct in the wild, however the conservation status of the Axolotl is shown to be critically endangered, not extinct in the wild. These separate statements seem to contradict each other. Maybe one of these needs to be changed. 94.2.119.236 (talk) 17:37, 15 May 2014 (UTC)

Not done: Unfortunately there's a bit of a terminology issue there. That paragraph does seem to imply extinction in the wild, but a species is not considered to be "Extinct in the Wild" until it has been designated as such on the IUCN redlist. Somebody's study that they didn't find any is probably worth including in the article, but does not change the overall conservation status of the Axolotl. --ElHef (Meep?) 18:02, 15 May 2014 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 23 November 2014

Axolotls were also sold as food in Mexican markets and were a staple in the Aztec diet. for this line, use http://www.nytimes.com/2012/10/31/world/americas/struggle-of-axolotls-mexicos-mythical-salamander.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0 as a citation. 76.99.201.202 (talk) 02:48, 23 November 2014 (UTC)

Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format. — {{U|Technical 13}} ^{(e • t • c)} 17:34, 23 November 2014 (UTC)

Vilem Laufberger

Prof. Laufberger was not of Germany, he was probably the most influential Czech physiologist of 20th century, being even dean of Masaryk University. Apart from his experiments with Axotls being the the first researcher to izolate Insuline and He also introduced and isolated Ferritin. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Carpet-diver (talk • contribs) 17:53, 13 June 2015 (UTC)

Gravel Impaction

In the article, a user removed information talking about gravel impaction being common among axolotls raised on gravel substrate, and instead replaced it with information that is clearly incorrect. Linked reference sources say absolutely nothing about swallowed gravel being healthy for axolotls, and several axolotl owners have mentioned losing axolotls to impaction. Furthermore, many more owners have kept their pets off of gravel and have had healthy axolotls live out long, full lives.

Additionally, axolotls in the wild live in lakes with silt bottoms, which should be an obvious clue to the fact that swallowing gravel would not be considered healthy for them.

This information needs to be changed. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Captaincapn (talk • contribs) 22:41, 12 September 2015 (UTC)

Interesting facts

axolotl , a salamander , Siredon mexicanum, found in certain lakes in the region of Mexico City, which reaches reproductive maturity without losing its larval characteristics. This phenomenon is called neoteny; in salamanders it is apparently caused by certain environmental conditions, particularly a low level of iodine in the water, which affect the functioning of the thyroid gland. Axolotls are permanently aquatic, never undergoing the metamorphosis to a terrestrial form characteristic of amphibians. They grow larger than ordinary larval salamanders and develop sexually, but they retain external gills and a well-developed tail. The axolotl was not recognized as a salamander until 1865, when several specimens at the Jardin des Plantes in Paris suddenly underwent metamorphosis. After some experimentation it was discovered that when their pools were dried up most of the animals changed into the adult form. Axolotls will also mature normally if fed thyroid gland extract. The related North American tiger salamander, Abystoma tigrinum, often exhibits neoteny in the Rocky Mts., where the iodine content of the water is low. The axolotl has a broad head and bushy gills; its skin is a black-speckled dark brown. It may grow as long as 13 in. (33 cm). In Mexico City, axolotls are sometimes cooked and eaten as delicacies. They are classified in the phylum Chordata , subphylum Vertebrata, class Amphibia, order Urodela, family Abystomidae.

by Axystar 2008 —Preceding unsigned comment added by Axystar (talk • contribs) 12:03, 11 October 2008 (UTC)

@Axystar: Interesting indeed. And although not credited, it sure looks like a direct quote from some text; in other words, plagiarism. --Thnidu (talk) 16:44, 4 December 2015 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 4 March 2016

The person who stated axolotls swallow gravel to help balance in the water did not use any real scientific ideas for axolotls. He used one stating tadpoles do, but nothing about axolotls. There is stronger evidence pointing to gravel killing axolotls that helping them float in water. If you don't believe me, look at all of these articles showing why you should never keep an axolotl on gravel: http://www.caudata.org/cc/articles/substrate1.shtml http://www.caudata.org/cc/faq/FAQhou.shtml Cliygh and Mia (talk) 06:21, 4 March 2016 (UTC)

Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format. clpo13_(talk) 07:13, 4 March 2016 (UTC)

Temperature clarification

I have clarified the temperature ranges for which a captive axolotl should be kept. --_Macbookair3140 23:57, 14 March 2016 (UTC)

Cheers. And here I thought User:Cliygh and Mia had finally made ONE well-sourced addition :/ -- Elmidae (talk) 08:02, 15 March 2016 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 12 July 2016

change | status = PEW to | status = EW

Axolotls are extinct in the wild, none been found since 2012

A01020304uk (talk) 02:14, 12 July 2016 (UTC)

Not done: IUCN doesn't say EW, only CR. [2] Stickee (talk) 04:19, 12 July 2016 (UTC)

In contemporary fiction

Can someone please add something about Dr. Shrunk from Animal Crossing series being an Axolotl? 82.38.96.120 (talk) 21:06, 21 February 2010 (UTC) I agree with this, especially with how popular New Leaf was. CPPJive (talk) 00:51, 24 August 2016 (UTC)

(Well, I don't really like this new "protection" feature, because I've already contributed many times... Anyways:) Hungarian writer Antal Szerb also mentions Axolotl in his novel, The Pendragon Legend (1934, English translation 2006)).

"Roscoe’s unlikely will may account for the Earl’s interest in tropical diseases, but how to account for the tanks of mutant axolotls in the Earl’s lab? If, like Bátky, you’re up on mystical lore, then you’d know the significance of these salamanders to the Rosicrucians. (We’re talking real Rosicrucians here, the occult philosophers who may have influenced Spenser and Shakespeare, not the American copycats who used to peddle their books in magazine ads.) And from there it’s just another step to the resurrection of the Earl’s ancestor, Assaf Pendragon, and a sacrifice to the “Great Adept,” if you play your mystical cards right." http://www.forbes.com/2007/10/30/hungarian-horror-halloween-cz_rh_1031pedragon.html Arpadapo (talk) 21:08, 13 May 2010 (UTC)

Incorrect / Misleading Article - not found natively in only Mexico

Axolotls are also found natively (not introduced) in some lakes in the Western U.S. Axolotl Lakes in SW Montana are named for these creatures. Perhaps ironically, the Shosohone and Bannock peoples native to this part of MT speak Uto-Aztecan languages related to Nahuatl (Aztec), the from which of course the word axolotl is from. However, the 'edit' option for this page has been disabled, likely due to the bickering over pronunciation of the name and aquarium specifications, etc. ... trivial things, while a basic piece of information about the animal is neglected and cannot be changed. These animals are very unique but they are NOT only from Mexico. There are also lakes in the Rocky Mountains which contain them. Any source online will verify this. In fact the Merriam Webster Dictionary (arguably not the best dictionary, but it functions) definition of the word states that it is a non-metamorphosing salamander native to lakes in central Mexico and parts of the Western U.S. Amen. This is correct and this sorry incomplete article needs to be changed. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.32.17.25 (talk) 16:23, 3 June 2013 (UTC)

Agreed, this should be added. 98.24.14.97 (talk) 07:00, 15 February 2014 (UTC)

the "axolotls" that you mention are not Ambystoma mexicanum, they are a population of tiger salamander (a closely related species) that sometimes remains neotonic. Niado (talk) 04:05, 18 September 2016 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 16 September 2016

please remove "This animal was x-rayed several times as part of a research project over a period of two years. It was a normal healthy adult (26.3cm 159.5 gm) at the beginning of the project and lived several more years after the project ended. Axolotls seek out gravel to swallow, presumably as gastroliths." Please also remove "There are persistent statements in pet care literature that axolotls cannot be kept on gravel because gravel causes fatal digestive impaction. There is no evidence to support this myth and counter evidence that normal healthy axolotls regularly ingest gravel and pass it without any negative consequences. The axolotl, like many amphibians, may be deliberately ingesting gravel to act as a gastrolith providing buoyancy control and aiding digestion, preventing impaction, rather than causing it. Axolotls deprived of appropriately sized gravel will ingest anything else they can find while attempting to satisfy their instinctive need for gastroliths and this behaviour, combined with lack of appropriate gastroliths, may be a cause, among others, of fatal impaction."

The sources provided for both statements do not support such a claim and almost every vet will agree that there is absolutely no cause to claim axolotls use gastroliths. I have spoken to axolotl rescue worker Jude Davies, who has worked with axolotls over 30 years who has had vets need to remove gravel and stones from impacted axolotls. There are no scientists who can support the gastrolith theory on record either, and the ambystoma genetic stock center has also warned of axolotls not being kept on gravel because it causes health risks. Here are some websites which further support what I have said, http://www.ambystoma.org/education/guide-to-axolotl-husbandry, http://www.caudata.org/forum/f46-beginner-newt-salamander-axolotl-help-topics/f48-axolotls-ambystoma-mexicanum/f58-sick-axolotl/63145-vets-please-help-we-think-axolotl-swallowed-gravel.html, http://sillyaxolotls.wixsite.com/sillyaxolotls/treating-illness, http://all-about-axolotls.blogspot.com/p/axolotl-tank-set-up.html, http://www.reptilesmagazine.com/Care-Sheets/Frogs-Amphibians/Axolotl/, http://sillyaxolotls.wixsite.com/sillyaxolotls/axolotl-caresheet. Julesaskalotl (talk) 05:13, 16 September 2016 (UTC)

I admit that to me this increasingly looks like a case for presenting arguments for both sides, instead of the categorical conclusion currently in the article. The sources cited at this point do not support the strong statement that gravel is harmless and that the opposite view is a "myth"; Kulbisky et al. is circumstantial evidence, and Wings and Rondeau et al. do not treat axolotls in particular (the former is about gastroliths in general and the latter about anurans). The sources mentioned by Julesaskalotl may not be scientific articles, but they definitely show that the issue is not as clear-cut as presented at this point. I suggest describing this issue as not being conclusively settled, and presenting a summary and sources for either interpretation. (added ref to xray image, btw) -- Elmidae (talk · contribs) 07:58, 16 September 2016 (UTC)

The current state of axolotl care is that you must not put them on gravel because they will ingest it and die. This started many years ago because one person decided an animal that died did so because of an impaction in the gut. At necropsy the animal had a piece of gravel in its gut and it was dead. This one result was uncritically published with no proof whatsoever that the animal actually died of gut impaction. The result is that ever single axolotl care book since that time always refers back to the "standard" which is you don't keep them on gravel. The other result is if you try to present any evidence other than the unproven standard a few pet keepers always come forward hysterically claiming that anyway who puts the axolotls on gravel is cruel and out to kill the axolotls and then follows up with some anecdotal evidence of someone who knew someone whose axolotl died from a gut impaction. The same quoted "standard" also was once that axolotls need to be kept in individual goldfish bowls not big enough to allow them to stretch out. This is no longer the standard of care and in fact our animal care committee agreed with us that keeping the animals in bare individual fish bowls with no objects of any kind constituted cruelty. Standards change. The Kubilinsky article is a publication that had a section in it with animals showing gravel present for years in normal healthy animals who actively sought, swallowed and passed gravel. The gastrolith article is not directly related to axolotls but does explain how and why gastroliths are important to normal health in animals that use them for ballast and digestion and is therefore supportive of the Kubilinsky result. Taken together it shows the notion that the axolotls are deliberately ingesting gravel as gastroliths. Now our colony at the University of Manitoba used gravel with our animals for years and we never had a single animal die of impaction. We did necropsies with every death and not once did we find a gut impaction. We also found they sought out specific sizes. We also found over many years the animals actively sought out gravel and when they couldn't find the right sized stuff they swallowed whatever they could find. It is my opinion that the multiple reports of gut impaction are due to three causes 1) misidentification of any animal that is sick or dies as having a gut impaction simply because on necropsy there was something in the gut 2) axolotls unable to satisfy their natural urge to eat gravel ingest things they should not and getting an impaction from eating rocks, sand and aquarium filter parts that are too big or have sharp edges and getting a gut impaction. 3) not having gastroliths, their gut does not function properly. Therefore promoting this myth (and it is a myth because it has no basis in any properly conducted study) is probably harming animals and killing them. People need to know alternatives and make their own responsible decisions. I am however satisfied with not using the term myth and presenting both sides and letting people choose.

This is fixed. Whomever originally put the information indicating that gravel-impaction is a "myth" seems to be jumping to conclusions based on tangentially-related research. Current consensus in husbandry and scientific literature is that gravel impaction causes deaths. I have provided sources that reflect this. Niado (talk) 14:06, 16 September 2016 (UTC)

Thanks. Those are good sources. Tidied up a bit to avoid direct quotes.-- Elmidae (talk · contribs) 12:53, 18 September 2016 (UTC)

Bjorklund21, you do NOT remove other people's comments from talk pages this way. Please don't try this again.-- Elmidae (talk · contribs) 12:53, 18 September 2016 (UTC)

I apologize for removing a quote. It was completely unintentional on my part. ````

Cheers :) -- Elmidae (talk · contribs) 14:00, 18 September 2016 (UTC)

Request for removal of misleading photographs

As a hobbyist with axolotls, I am EXTREMELY concerned about the photographs being used on this page depicting axolotls on gravel. Having very nearly lost one of mine due to impaction after their being on gravel less than a week, the thought that someone may come along, see this page and believe it is an acceptable base for an axolotl tank. There are numerous cases of impaction documented in the axolotl forums of caudata.org. I therefore request that those pictures are removed immediately, and that appropriate images are sourced from a reputable source such as caudata.org or axolotl.org as soon as possible. As to two animals in the photograph, I sincerely hope that thwy were among the few lucky ones. However, I strongly doubt it. Minniechild (talk) 01:12, 26 April 2011 (UTC)

I approve of this change. Albinistic specimens are also not representative of the species, and result in misled traffic (see Mudkipz) which vandalize the article. StevePrutz (talk) 17:42, 26 April 2011 (UTC)

Thirded. 98.24.14.97 (talk) 07:36, 15 February 2014 (UTC)

Whether people like to believe it or not the photograph is real and represents a real result. he axolotl in question lived many years with gravel regularly passing it. The picture should not be removed just because someone dislikes it. It is properly references to a peer reviewed scientific article approved by an animal care committee and includes an author who is an expert on axolotl care. At best both arguments should be presented not just one removed entirely, especially one well referenced. Bjorklund21 (talk) 23:50, 17 September 2016 (UTC)

I have no problem with the inclusion of the photograph. The fact that axolotls ingest gravel (and really, whatever available objects they are capable of swallowing) is not contested. However, I disagree with the photo being used as evidence to imply that aquarium gravel is a safe substrate for axolotls. The source for the photo is a paper that uses the axolotl to compare different imaging methods, and (though I don't have access to the full text) seems to present the theory that they are seeking gastroliths as an aside. The fact that the university of Manitoba colony did not have any fatalities due to gut impaction is not enough evidence to state there is no risk. The new source that you provided explaining this seems to be a blog post (written by Natalie Gordon, née Bjorklund...which is you, correct?), which contradicts the published, peer-reviewed care guides previously provided. Interestingly, another published care guide co-authored by Ms. Bjorklund states "Smaller pebbles or gravel may be ingested by axolotls, especially if they are underfed. Although they regurgitate the gravel eventually, it's easier to avoid the problem."

The consensus of published literature both in the scientific and hobbyist communities is quite clear in recommending against the use of gravel. While the gastrolith theory may in fact be true, wikipedia is not the place to hash this out. See WP:NOR and WP:FRINGE. I have edited the section to include this theory but to correct the undue weight it was being given.

Another note - citing your own work as a source is allowed, but must not be used with undue emphasis (see WP:SELFCITE), especially when using a self-published source (see WP:SELFPUB). I am interested in further information on this subject, and will continue to research sources for both the mainstream recommendation and your gastrolith idea. The best source would be a veterinary-focused paper with analysis of relevent necropsy performed. I would love to discuss further with you also, since you seem to have extensive experience in the field. For example, I would like to read your paper "Small is beautiful: economical axolotl colony maintenance with natural spawnings as if axolotls mattered" but I cannot find a copy online, also, do you know if Susan Duhon's work is available online? Niado (talk) 03:58, 18 September 2016 (UTC)

I concur that the photograph should not be removed, but properly sourced and presented with accompanying information at proper weight. In other words, just about the state we have now, with Niado's condensing of Bjorklund21's over-long paragraph about their own work. Strikes me as well balanced at this point.-- Elmidae (talk · contribs) 12:59, 18 September 2016 (UTC)

I very much like the latest edit because it is balanced and fair. I over responded after the complete removal of my original addition mostly because I have a trollish type individual following me around all over social media making nasty accusations and misrepresentations about my work and my character and insisting on a hysterical and unwarranted "Keeping your animals on gravel means they will die! This woman hates axolotls and is killing them!" attitude. I should not have let my personal reactions reflect the edit and for that I thank the other editors. The new edit allows people to review everything for themselves in a rational fashion and make their own decision and it gives it proper weight. Thank you!Bjorklund21 (talk) 17:13, 23 September 2016 (UTC)

References

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pronunciation of axolotl

Last semester a student worked on a project with a native speaker of Nahuatl to record pronunciations of Nahuatl-derived words, people and place names. I added his pronunciation of axolotl with the Template:Pronunciation inline but I realize it could be better... just havent found a way to do it if the IPA template is not yet on the article.Thelmadatter (talk) 02:49, 18 January 2017 (UTC)

Edit request

I found a citation for the following sentence:

The genes responsible for neoteny in laboratory animals may have been identified; however, they are not linked in wild populations, suggesting artificial selection is the cause of complete neoteny in laboratory and pet axolotls.[citation needed]

Citation: http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/B9780123859792000083?np=y

Within the genetic background of the domesticated stock, which has undergone strong artificial selection for paedomorphosis, the penetrance of met1 is greater, and this results in a higher proportion of paedomorphic individuals in hybrid crosses ( Voss & Smith, 2005).

Original cited source: S.R. Voss, J.J. Smith Evolution of salamander life cycles: A major effect QTL contributes to both continuous and discrete variation for metamorphic timing Genetics, 170 (2005), pp. 275–281

---

Another suggested change, the following sentence seems to disagree with several sources.

A four-month-long search in 2013 turned up no surviving individuals in the wild. Previous surveys in 1998, 2003 and 2008 had found 6,000, 1,000 and 100 axolotls per square kilometer in its Lake Xochimilco habitat, respectively.[9]

While reference 9 may suggest 0 were sighted, at least two other sources suggest a few have been seen in 2014. http://www.independent.co.uk/environment/axolotl-found-in-mexico-city-lake-after-scientists-feared-it-only-survived-in-captivity-9148775.html

http://america.aljazeera.com/articles/2015/2/15/mystical-amphibian-venerated-by-aztecs-nears-extinction.html — Preceding unsigned comment added by 198.185.18.207 (talk) 20:28, 22 January 2017 (UTC)

Axolotl as food

A talk at the Oxford Symposium on Food and Cookery addressed the use of axolotl as a pre-conquest and valued food. The page is semi-protected so I'll simply drop the link here: Three talks at 2016 Oxford Symposium on food and cookery - third is on axolotl as dish 162.119.232.105 (talk) 00:34, 26 January 2017 (UTC)

Aquarium keeping

Can somebody tell me what the ideal pH for axolotls are? I think that having the temperature up is good, but it's rather lacking in other areas (tankmates etc)

6.5-8PH, 7.3-7.6 is ideal. I have added this in the past but it has been deleted. Have re-added. -Sas

I do not think it is appropriate to simply remove an entire section that has been properly referenced just because someone doesn't agree with it. You can put in both sides of a dispute and let the reader choose to read all accounts and make their own decision. Citing an authority who bases their authority on a past authority who kept citing the same thing without any proper experimentation or research of their own is nothing more than circular reasoning. I maintain my position that there is no evidence for gravel of appropriate size causing impaction and counter evidence exists. Until someone does a proper double blind study of this issue both sides should be presented t the reader and let the reader decide on their own. Bjorklund21 (talk) 00:17, 18 September 2016 (UTC)

I am entirely satisfied with the new wording. Bjorklund21 (talk) 13:35, 18 September 2016 (UTC)

I don't have a source of wiki quality to back this up, but I have an axolotl and did my research ages ago before I got her, and tank mates are a big red NO. Groups of adult axolotls are fine, juveniles can be cannibalistic but outgrow it, other species though? They'll likely either nibble the axolotl's gills, or become its dinner. Argenti Aertheri (talk) 00:49, 17 July 2017 (UTC)

The Veils

https://genius.com/The-veils-axolotl-lyrics

Would you want The Veils song Axolotl which features in Twin Peaks in your

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Axolotl#In_popular_culture

section?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v0IBpUgbTTA

If so do whatever you wish to do with it... :-)

EDLIS Café 09:46, 22 August 2017 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 25 February 2018

i would like to add an axolotl care section to your article as i own and recently have bred axolotls and brought up baby axolotls. i would be greatfull if you replied. thanks for reading:) Eatsfood (talk) 18:02, 25 February 2018 (UTC)

That may be useful. You will need to put here exactlky what you want to add to the page so that it can be considered. IdreamofJeanie (talk) 18:07, 25 February 2018 (UTC)

Xolotl

No mention of Xolotl? --184.63.159.28 (talk) 00:46, 11 March 2019 (UTC)

Why not be bold and make mention with some reliable sources?--Mr Fink (talk) 01:33, 11 March 2019 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 7 May 2019

In popular culture, make note of how Axolotls are considered a deep fried delicacy in some places in Japan. It is bred in captivity as a food source, but is not a commonly available option. Below is a relevant link to one restaurant. https://soranews24.com/2014/11/25/yokohama-restaurant-serves-fried-axolotl-along-with-giant-isopod-camel-and-crocodile/ 198.245.194.193 (talk) 14:32, 7 May 2019 (UTC)

 Not done: The source notes that one specific restaurant in Yokohama serves Axolotl bred in captivity, but it does not state that they are considered a delicacy in Japan (merely that they are served in this single "rare animal" restaurant). NiciVampireHeart 08:35, 8 May 2019 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 30 September 2019

I would like to update the information currently provided about the Axolotl's use as a model organism. There is a lot of significant primary research that has been published on the subject of regeneration, however this has not been touched on in this article. The current information under "regeneration" is vague and does not explain the current understanding of how the axolotl regenerates certain tissues. Colt24 (talk) 18:43, 30 September 2019 (UTC)

 Not done: this is not the right page to request additional user rights. You may reopen this request with the specific changes to be made and someone will add them for you, or if you have an account, you can wait until you are autoconfirmed and edit the page yourself. Begoon 18:53, 30 September 2019 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 5 March 2020

Please change the sentence on Regeneration: "The feature of the salamander that attracts most attention is its healing ability: the axolotl does not heal by scarring and is capable of the regeneration of entire lost appendages in a period of months, and, in certain cases, more vital structures" to include that the axolotl has the ability to regenerate a variety of bodily structures, such as "...tail, limb, central nervous system, and tissues of the eye and heart".

Source:Caballero-Pérez, Juan, et al. “Transcriptional Landscapes of Axolotl (Ambystoma Mexicanum).” Developmental Biology, vol. 433, no. 2, 15 Jan. 2018, pp. 227–239., doi:10.1016/j.ydbio.2017.08.022. Angeun (talk) 21:58, 5 March 2020 (UTC)

 Done Your request wasn't clear, so reply to me or reactivate your request if you are not satisfied. {{SUBST:replyto|Can I Log In}}^{Copy and paste the code to reply}(Talk) 00:18, 15 March 2020 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 7 March 2020

A little known fact is when in the juvenile stage, Axolotl go through a brief cannibalistic stage. During this stage, they may fully or partially eat other smaller juveniles. Axolotl usually grow out of this stage by adulthood, but is a reason why regeneration is so important. Mattguti80 (talk) 05:14, 7 March 2020 (UTC)

References

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. @Mattguti80: please clarify your request like where this information should be place or if it should replace existing information in the article and re-open your request. Alucard 16_{❯❯❯ chat?} 10:56, 18 March 2020 (UTC)

New "In popular culture" reference in a new video game.

The Axolotl appears as a rideable mount in the Spelunky 2.

Here's is a reference: https://www.ign.com/wikis/spelunky-2/Axolotl --Tommy144p (talk) 12:49, 20 October 2020 (UTC)

Non-notable.--Mr Fink (talk) 17:37, 20 October 2020 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 10 November 2020

Please insert the following under regeneration section:

"The immune system has been mentioned as an important factor to why the axolotl is capable of regenerating, especially macrophages have been investigated and said to be of great importance during heart regeneration (). However, sceewing the immune system into either direction, with injections of either the pro-inflammatory substance LPS, or the anti-inflammatory drug Prednisolone, during the entire heart regeneration period, did not change the ability of the axolotl to regenerate ()." 185.45.22.148 (talk) 09:23, 11 November 2020 (UTC)

References

It's probably too much detail to mention how this primary study was performed, just "although that has been questioned" might be sufficient. – Thjarkur (talk) 11:07, 11 November 2020 (UTC)

 Done. ◢  Ganbaruby!  (Say hi!) 06:41, 12 December 2020 (UTC)

Request to add to the "In Popular Culture" Section

1. The Pokemon Mudkip and Wooper both seem to have axolotl-like traits, namely the gills.

2. In the 2012 cartoon Gravity Falls, the Axolotl is referenced. In Season 2, Episode 20 (Weirdmaggedon 3: Take Back the Falls) when the main villain Bill Cipher dies and if the footage is reversed, he spells out Axolotl. Also, in the Journal 3 book for the show says that the residents of the Chaos Dimension worship the Axolotl.

3. In the 2014 cartoon Bojack Horseman, there is a character named Yolanda Buenaventura, who is an axolotl. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Longanimals (talk • contribs) 16:14, 8 June 2018 (UTC)

"In Popular Culture" sections should be a discussion of how the topic is viewed in popular culture, and not be a laundry list of obscure(d) references and non-notable mentions. Nor should "In Popular culture" sections include mentions that require original research, especially since there are other salamanders with feathery gills.--Mr Fink (talk) 16:40, 8 June 2018 (UTC)

+1 for the Mudkip reference. Was surprised that wasn't in the article already. --167.220.2.237 (talk) 22:56, 28 January 2019 (UTC)

Um, wouldn't the name imply a mudskipper or mudpuppy and not an axototl? I mean, in addition to the fact that there are no official or reliable sources stating that the axototl was the inspiration of Mudkip, in addition to, you know, discussing how Mudkip impacts the public's view/opinion of aforementioned species of Mexican salamander.--Mr Fink (talk) 23:29, 28 January 2019 (UTC)

In addition to the doubtful identification noted above (we can't deal in looks-like-its), the content of "In popular culture" sections needs to the demonstrate how the usage in popular culture is relevant to the general perception of the subject. The endless lists of one-off uses in cartoons and random works of fiction luckily belong to the past now. --Elmidae (talk · contribs) 08:58, 29 January 2019 (UTC)

I think being referenced in one of the highest grossing media franchises of all time is better reason in and of itself than almost anything in the pop culture section gives right now, with almost all of them just being a random mention as you describe, but until we get confirmation of it as an inspiration there's no reason to list mudkip. Wexford001 (talk) 01:47, 20 March 2021 (UTC)

I believe I saw in a video about a fact about every Hoenn pokemon by HoopsandHipHop that Mudkip is only partly based on a axolotl but still is based on one, further investigation needed. It also just seems obvious enough to include that Wooper is based on one but I could be wrong.

Axolotl Citation Addition

In the Description section, there is a citation missing relative to gas exchange in the gills. I would like to request to add references: and Knowl8dge (talk) 04:55, 20 March 2021 (UTC)

References

Mudkip

I believe the Axolotl was not the basis for Mudkip, but for Wooper (http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-Otozwi9EWew/TqjARZceHwI/AAAAAAAAGkc/iAWJcKtfNec/s1600/wooper-totally-looks-like-axolotl.jpg) Mudkip however resembles a MUDsKIPper. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Periophthalmus — Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.181.94.141 (talk) 14:38, 6 May 2012 (UTC)

It was one of the bases for Mudkip but not the main base and was kind of scrapped through its evolutions, Wooper is more heavily inspired by this but Mudkip still technically counts, thanks to HoopsandHipHop for this info. — Preceding unsigned comment added by MegaBlaziken222 (talk • contribs) 15:03, 14 April 2021 (UTC)

Axolotl in Popular Culture

The axolotl is important in the Gravity Falls universe, so I think that Gravity Falls should be included on axolotl in popular culture.TonyStank123456789 (talk) 19:26, 25 January 2021 (UTC)

No, it's not. A hidden reference to the god Xototl in the series finale does not make the salamander important to the Gravity Falls show.--Mr Fink (talk) 00:37, 26 January 2021 (UTC)

I agree with this and that the Xolotl is a completely different thing from the axolotl in this purpose, I do believe more should be added to the Pokemon section though and maybe finding a deliberate source that states these facts would be helpful. — Preceding unsigned comment added by MegaBlaziken222 (talk • contribs) 15:13, 14 April 2021 (UTC)

Someone with better editing skills, please help.

I tried to add an edit that show that Mudkip and Wooper (from Pokemon) are based off of axolotls, I have siting for Mudkip's side of things even: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7IYhbdWt4ZI&t=192. It was reverted, I understand why, it wasn't the greatest piece of writing but could someone please use this source to type up a better edit for the Popular Culture section?

The problem here is relevance: is is important to the topic that some random Pokemons look similar? No. Hence this should not be mentioned in the article. And no, this Youtube reference would not constitute suitable sourcing either. --Elmidae (talk · contribs) 23:59, 14 April 2021 (UTC)

Axolotl proposed moved neoteny section

I would like to make an edit and move the Neoteny section as a subsection of Use as Model Organism. I think this would fit more appropriately on the page and in context.Knowl8dge (talk) 15:50, 11 May 2021 (UTC)

The current text doesn't suggest it is used as a model organism for neoteny, are there reliable sources noting it is used as such? CMD (talk) 16:04, 11 May 2021 (UTC)

Wildtype

I believe that there should be clear labels on the various color morphs of axolotls in photograph. There are *way* too many people (and a lot of children) that believe that axolotls are naturally unpigmented; this has lead to the belief that they are some hypogean species like the olm. It disgusts me that they will forever be remembered as some cutesy freak in a tank instead of a relicts of one of the world's largest freshwater lakes.

My suggestions are: Wildtype Axolotl for cover image, Labels on color morphs for all the photos in the article

Cheers. Anthropophoca (talk) 13:25, 22 April 2022 (UTC)

@Anthropophoca I've implemented your good suggestion, thanks! Feel free to make any other changes, and Commons has lots of other pictures you may feel work better [3]. Reywas92^Talk 13:56, 22 April 2022 (UTC)

Lake Chalco & Mudpuppies

According to various internet sources (including Wikipedia itself), Lake Chalco no longer exists . "Starting during the Aztec era and continuing into 20th century, efforts were made to drain Lake Chalco and her sister lakes in order to avoid periodic flooding and to provide for expansion. The only of these lakes still in existence is a diminished Lake Xochimilco." Furthermore, since the axolotl is an endangered species native only to Lake Chalco and Lake Xochimilco, I see it somewhat prudent to enter this information into the article on axolotls.

Also, why is the [Mudpuppy] habitat described under Axolotl Habitat? Call me crazy, but it seems a bit nonrelevent. I'll remove this information and place a note about mudpuppies near the article's begining. Hope noone minds too terribly much, but in my opinion it cleans the article up.

I haven't editted on Wikipedia before, so feel free to improve my update. Tlasco Rydrion 23:30, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

As of 2021 Lake Chalco is quite demonstrably present and filled with water in up to date satellite imagery.

  Which doesn't mean there are any wild axolotls living in it, or even that it could support them. 21:52, 22 April 2022 (UTC)KevnSG (talk)

Need help finding a credible source for the Pop culture one involving Pokemon

I'm struggling looking for a credible and reliable source in the Pop culture section involving the Pokemon Mudkip-Swampert line. I understand that the sources have to be 100% credible, so I'm looking at the Gamefreak creators transactions, articles, or discussions of their starter design origins. Maybe there is one but in Japanese. 68.62.155.13 (talk) 19:28, 6 May 2022 (UTC)

Don't bother please. You will raise many and persistent hackles with adding Pokemon trivia to species articles. The species may be relevant to the Pokemon, but the Pokemon is invariably not relevant to the species. --Elmidae (talk · contribs) 20:44, 6 May 2022 (UTC)

There needs to be a guide on what can be put for the pop culture section because alot of it feels people being nickpicky rather than being factual.

So people say that any citation involving the Pokemon Mudkip line is not important or helpful for the Axolotl article. Yet, I fail to see how most of the stuff for the pop culture section being important at all. The only ones that are important is the Minecraft one (because it's raising awareness to the species extinction) as well the Mexican peso one since that's of cultural importance. However, some of them don't even have citations, such as the one for Mad magazine. How is that important? The Dune one as well. Is the Axolotl an important animal in that book? The BoJack Horseman one I don't even understand at all because there is no mention of any Axolotl in the article (however it does have an image of a background character). How are these different from the Pokemon trivia? I just want to be informed because I don't know what's going on. 68.62.155.13 (talk) 21:34, 6 May 2022 (UTC)

Wikipedia:"In popular culture" content -- Finlay McWalter··–·Talk 21:39, 6 May 2022 (UTC)

In fairness, most of what's currently in this article's "in popular culture" section is low-quality trivia. I'm inclined to remove the Mad Magazine, Bojack, and Minecraft stuff, at least. -- Finlay McWalter··–·Talk 22:01, 6 May 2022 (UTC)

Agree those can go. Reywas92^Talk 22:02, 6 May 2022 (UTC)

Axolotls are not a major part of the Dune universe; the "axolotl tanks" mentioned form an occasional passing plot point at best, and are one of the hundreds of technologies, places, people, etc. mentioned in the series. They're mentioned in Axolotl (disambiguation), which I think is sufficient. Ditto for the the short story, which I've added to the disambiguation page. So I propose that only the banknote is worth mentioning here. -- Finlay McWalter··–·Talk 22:17, 6 May 2022 (UTC)

Agree with that radical prune. I don't actually know how the section got to be in this state; people probably got worn down by constant addition of the same pigeon-weight fluff and stopped shoveling back the tide. For reference as to what a well-made popular culture section looks like, I suggest e.g. Pope Alexander VI#In popular culture - which someone still tried to remove in its entirety a couple weeks ago. There's always lots of YMMV in this regard. --Elmidae (talk · contribs) 06:32, 7 May 2022 (UTC)

I've made the change. Yes, the Alexander VI article is an example of good practice, where the subject is a central part of the cultural work (and not "unremarkable mentions or appearances"). -- Finlay McWalter··–·Talk 10:51, 7 May 2022 (UTC)

Metamorphosis

[4] 86.132.141.14 (talk) 20:22, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

The entry says at least twice that axolotls don't metamorphose, and in other places describes what happens when they metamorphose. Definitely needs correction/clarification. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 97.116.79.142 (talk) 06:13, 12 July 2022 (UTC)

Are they blind?

It says they hunt by smell. Obviously they have eyes, but are they functional?Superbuttons (talk) 20:52, 8 July 2013 (UTC) Axolotls are not blind. They can see but not that good. I have an axolotl and he can see his food only if I drop it right in front of his face. Profile image.Boba_theaxolotl (talk) 12:55, 21 September 2022 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.185.16.18 (talk)

Semi-protected edit request on 16 March 2023

Please change "The axolotl is carnivorous, consuming small prey such as mollusks,[22] worms, insects, other arthropods,[22] and small fish in the wild. Axolotls locate food by smell, and will "snap" at any potential meal, sucking the food into their stomachs with vacuum force.[23]" to "The axolotl is carnivorous, consuming small prey such as mollusks,[22] worms, insects, other arthropods,[22] and small fish in the wild. Axolotls locate food by smell, and will "snap" at any potential meal, sucking the food into their stomachs with vacuum force.[23] Axolotls are important to the natural ecosystem, as they play a role in the food chain and are the natural predator in its environment. Due to their nature as carnivores, axolotls consume worms, crustaceans, mollusks, and fish to control the population of said organisms." Mnguye78 (talk) 21:36, 16 March 2023 (UTC)

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. Actualcpscm (talk) 21:44, 16 March 2023 (UTC)

Wiki Education assignment: BSC 4052 Conservation Biology

This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 16 January 2023 and 28 April 2023. Further details are available on the course page. Peer reviewers: Chris28369, Ferrets are nice.

— Assignment last updated by Paightyn (talk) 14:11, 11 April 2023 (UTC)

Page branch proposal

This page has long suffered through a significant number of enthusiastic editors who seek to add the latest depictions of axolotls (or axolotl-inspired species) to the relevant section, leading the admins to semi-protecting the page on a consistent and continuous basis. As this page mostly concerns the axolotl itself and its place in the environment, and the axolotl will continue to be significant in the minds of uncountable artists, I propose that a new page is established concerning the axolotl in popular culture; Axolotls in popular culture. I believe that they are now so recognizable as to warrant the creation of such a page, and being its own page, it would allow these enthusiastic editors to list every single depiction that comes to their mind without detracting from this page's scope. Anthropophoca (talk) 05:41, 6 September 2023 (UTC)

Added an Image

An image was added of Lake Xochimilco. Stud3nt1947 (talk) 03:57, 5 October 2023 (UTC)

in literature

Why no mention of Julio Cortazar and Rene Daumal? 70.8.227.195 (talk) 18:06, 22 October 2009 (UTC)Ray

The cloning devices in Frank Herbert’s Dune novels were called Axolotl tanks. 209.54.4.42 (talk) 22:08, 24 October 2023 (UTC)

Pronunciation and photos

How do you pronounce 'axolotl'? Also, does anyone have any photographs of a fully metamorphosed ('adult') axolotl that they could add to the article? 217.34.39.123 09:15, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

• I think it's pronounced "axle-ottle". --Candy-Panda 09:16, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

• • Yes, and I believe it was Groucho Marx who said "I'd rather have an axolotl in front of me than a frontal lobotomy". Or something like that. --CliffC 12:37, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

• • I believe it's a nahuat (an aztec language) and the 'x' was used by the spanish to represent a 'sh' sound, as in 'shield'. If this is so then the first bit would be pronounced "ash-olottle".
    

Bingo, a quick search turns up this <http://www.kent.ac.uk/anthropology/dice/research/azaxs/english/project/glossary.htm>
"The word is Náhuatl (the language spoken by the Aztecs) and is properly pronounced "ashólotl".

I also believe that the 'tl' is a representation of a sound familiar in Welsh, where it is written 'LL' and pronounced as a kind of aspirated, hissy letter L.

It would be much better if a Nahuatl speaker could comment though.

jan Water pepper (talk) 23:35, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

Um... yah. But we don't speak Classical Nahuatl last time I checked, we speak English. Here are the correct pronunciations to add (article currently locked). Click "Edit" for this comment to cut-and-paste the actual source code with links into article:

(IPA US: [ˈæk.səˌlɑ.dəl] UK: [ˈak.səˌlɒ.təl]) Nahuatl: /aːʃoːloːtɬ/)

75.36.151.138 (talk) 21:46, 2 November 2008 (UTC)englishspeaker

Who's "we" ? The creature's name is Nahuatl, so you speak Nahuatl when you name the animal. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.11.36.169 (talk) 15:45, 3 May 2011 (UTC)

Meriam-Webster uses the common English pronunciation in their dictionary which reflects how people use it. I believe that the page should be updated to reflect that. 192.55.2.36 (talk) 15:38, 20 November 2023 (UTC)

Add to the Cultural Significance section

In 2005 Nintendo released Animal Crossing: Wild World which features Dr. Shrunk [5]https://nookipedia.com/wiki/Dr._Shrunk based on the Axolotl 201.127.120.83 (talk) 04:35, 2 February 2024 (UTC)

Do you have a WP:SOURCE that isn't another wiki that explains the WP:NOTABILITY? Mr Fink (talk) 04:53, 2 February 2024 (UTC)

Wiki Education assignment: Intro to Technical Writing

This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 19 February 2024 and 18 March 2024. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Indigo397 (article contribs).

— Assignment last updated by Indigo397 (talk) 22:37, 19 February 2024 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 25 February 2024

On caption of photo of axolotl, change “Washington, D.C.” to “Baltimore.” (Context: there is no aquarium in DC, but there IS the National Aquarium in Baltimore, Maryland, and this aquarium did acquire an axolotl a few years back.) 71.244.202.40 (talk) 13:40, 25 February 2024 (UTC)

 Not done: The picture was taken in 2006 before the Washington DC National Aquarium closed (and probably before Baltimore got their axolotl if it was a few years ago). Jamedeus (talk) 21:25, 25 February 2024 (UTC)

Unprotection?

Can this article and talk page be unprotected now so that unregistered users can edit and make comments? We can quickly restore protection if necessary. --TS 20:08, 4 September 2009 (UTC)

Talk:List of Pokémon (241–260) indicates that the Pokemon-related meme is still going strong in the wider internet(..?). I agree that permanent semi-protection is suboptimal, though. This article gets around a thousand pageviews per day, but does not see high editing traffic or a high number of contributions from many individuals. If at least two or three other regular editors also have this watchlisted, it might be worth testing the waters. Starting with just the talkpage for a week or two might be best. WP:RFPP is just around the corner if it flares up again. - 2/0 (cont.) 21:45, 4 September 2009 (UTC)

I've unprotected the talk page; I'm not so keen on the actual article itself however. -Jeremy ^{(v^_^v Tear him for his bad verses!)} 05:59, 8 September 2009 (UTC)

On the contrary to the Wooper comment, the Axolotl is more commonly known for its similarities to the Pokémon "Mudkip", which is an internet meme. 3mptylord (talk) 12:50, 30 September 2009 (UTC)

Which is why this page gets semiprotected for long times because people trying to force the meme invariably come here as well to add it. -Jeremy ^{(v^_^v Tear him for his bad verses!)} 19:50, 22 October 2009 (UTC)

Why is there a meme on a page that is trying to supplement helpful information about axolotls?AxolotlGirl24 (talk) 00:57, 6 March 2024 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 17 March 2024

The axolotl (Ambystoma mexicanum) is a neotenic salamander, closely related to the tiger salamander. Known for its remarkable regenerative abilities, the axolotl serves as a model organism for regenerative medicine research (García-Valencia & Vargas-González, 2016) Saidsharif0210 (talk) 00:08, 17 March 2024 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. M.Bitton (talk) 00:23, 18 March 2024 (UTC)

Toothless AND the night fury?

A sentence in the cultural significance section reads "The looks of the dragons Toothless and The Night Fury in the How to Train Your Dragon movies are based on axolotls." As far as I am aware, Toothless is the night fury, so this does not make sense. 68.229.156.13 (talk) 15:19, 21 March 2024 (UTC)

"Deep well fish" listed at Redirects for discussion

The redirect Deep well fish has been listed at redirects for discussion to determine whether its use and function meets the redirect guidelines. Readers of this page are welcome to comment on this redirect at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2024 March 22 § Deep well fish until a consensus is reached. Utopes _{(talk / cont)} 20:03, 22 March 2024 (UTC)