Talk:Astrud Gilberto

Request for Comment

Point of order on the IPA pronunciation. She was born Astrud Evangelina Weinert to a German father, so shouldn't the IPA language for Astrud be German? Her last name is taken from her Brazilian husband, so is appropriately Portuguese. 47.149.45.141 (talk) 05:45, 30 September 2020 (UTC)

Came here from RfC. However, I don't see any dispute here. Can I suggest that the disputing editor is bold and edits anything she/he doesn't like on this page? AndyJones 12:46, 28 March 2006 (UTC)

• Sorry, now I see it. This does appear to be a copyvio, and I've reverted to last by Jpgordon. AndyJones 12:58, 28 March 2006 (UTC)
• Here's the link which this is alleged to be a copyvio from: http://www.astrudgilberto.com/biography.htm. AndyJones 16:17, 28 March 2006 (UTC)
  • The copyvio is less the issue, since the contributor is almost certainly the author of the source material as well. However, the appropriateness of Astrud Gilberto's management agency editing Astrud Gilberto to present their client in the best possible light is the problem here. Where's our boilerplate for educating well-meaning agents? --jpgordon∇∆∇∆ 16:38, 28 March 2006 (UTC)
    • I agree there's a problem. Raising the issue here is the right approach, though. They can see we have a problem and hopefully they'll engage with the debate, here. I personally don't consider their behaviour serious enough to justify me engaing in an edit war, but the matter is on my watchlist and I will revert their inappropriate content to the extent that I can without breaching 3RR. In the meantime, I'll leave a talk message asking them to join this discussion. AndyJones 20:54, 28 March 2006 (UTC)
    • Have now done so, here. AndyJones 20:58, 28 March 2006 (UTC)

Where's our boilerplate for educating well-meaning agents?

Wikipedia:Autobiography and Wikipedia:Vanity guidelines cover it. The usual advice in these situations is that, apart from correcting factual errors, anyone with a direct involvement should help on the Talk page, but not directly edit the article. Tearlach 19:09, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

Why does drmagc keep editing my comment? I believe she is pretty. Can I not say that?

you are welcome to comment on her appearance here. NOT on her page. Drmagic 23:16, 16 April 2006 (UTC)

On July 31, 2005, user:Fbergo altered the birth date from March 30 to March 29 (see diff), which contradicts IMDb and many other websites. Astrud Gilberto's name appears in both day-of-the-year pages. Can anybody cite a reliable source for the correct birth date? --LA2 06:56, 23 April 2006 (UTC)

Original research

Re edits and comments by 67.82.230.221 (talk · contribs). They may well be true, but edits on claims of grounds of knowing the person count as WP:NOR. Tearlach 02:44, 6 May 2006 (UTC)

• Well, yeah, but -- the thing about "ragtime music" was added by a vandal who on one day (October 12) vandalized about a half dozen articles by adding completely spurious information (and whose IP has not been seen since). The second correction (regarding who asked her to come and sing on the Getz/Gilberto album) is an interesting one, and I'd like to see some documentation on it one way or another. All Music Guide has another story: Producer Creed Taylor wanted a few English vocals for maximum crossover potential, and as it turned out, Astrud was the only Brazilian present with any grasp of the language. After her husband laid down his Portuguese vocals for the first verse of his and Jobim's composition, "The Girl From Ipanema," Astrud provided a hesitant, heavily accented second verse in English. Her own website might actually be the correct one, though: The fact that Astrud seldom grants interviews made it possible for many untruthful versions on how her guest appearance in the Getz & Gilberto album came about to be printed here and there, such as that she was "discovered" by Creed Taylor, or by Stan Getz, or yet, by Jobim, when the only truth is that she was invited to participate in the album by João Gilberto, who has great admiration for her singing talents. However, her website is full of puffery, so I'm still unsure. Notice also that http://www.astrudgilberto.com is rather angry at us: Regrettably, there is some biographical misinformation about Astrud Gilberto on the Internet, which includes, surprisingly, some posted on web pages that pose as an "encyclopedia", irresponsibly filled with material containing not only untruthful facts, but also unfounded gossip and fabricated lies, all posted and labeled as "biography"... Problem was, when her agency User:Magya Productions, Inc. started editing here (which mostly consisted of cutting and pasting PR puffery from astrudgilberto.com), they refused to communicate with us at all, despite being repeatedly asked; we might have mishandled it, but it's hard to engage in dialog with someone whose only mode is "keep making the same edits". So, the truth remains muddy. --jpgordon∇∆∇∆ 03:04, 6 May 2006 (UTC)
  • All good points. I think the article must say that there are various versions of the story circulating, but that her official website says..., then cite it as a source. Her managers may be right that this page has been edited partly by vandals and the misinformed, but we really want to see an honest biography here. It's a shame they're criticising us on their website when they ignored our polite request to join this discussion. AndyJones 09:22, 6 May 2006 (UTC)
    • Perhaps someone who, unlike me, has not already angered them might email Magya Productions (their email address is on astrudgilberto.com) and attempt a private, off-Wiki dialogue to help work things out. If they think things are "lies", they certainly could help correct them. --jpgordon∇∆∇∆ 15:50, 6 May 2006 (UTC)
    • Good idea. I've said this. I'll let you know what response there is:

Hello. I am one of the editors working on the Astrud Gilberto page of Wikipedia. We have noticed that you are angry about our coverage, as shown by the following quotation from the homepage of www.astrudgilberto.com/.

Regrettably, there is some biographical misinformation about Astrud Gilberto on the Internet, which includes, surprisingly, some posted on web pages that pose as an "encyclopedia", irresponsibly filled with material containing not only untruthful facts, but also unfounded gossip and fabricated lies, all posted and labeled as "biography"...

We are keen to have an honest biography of Astrud Gilberto on Wikipedia, and it would be very helpful if you would join the discussion at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Astrud_Gilberto, to help us to clear up any lies and gossip that the article contains.

Feel free to reply to this email if you like, and I will post your replies to the website. However it would be better if you joined the discussion on the talk page directly.

Yours sincerely

AndyJones AndyJones 10:26, 7 May 2006 (UTC)

Information from management

Anyway, I'm back following a few email exchanges with Astrud Gilberto's management, who were keen to open a dialogue on the subject of this article. I have incorporated, today, quite a lot of biographical detail which they have provided to me. I'm a bit concerned that although in one sense this is "straight from the horse's mouth", it is also not verified in the sense that we mean it here at Wikipedia. I've tried to stay factual and to avoid the puffier bits of their bio. In a few places you'll see that I felt the need to add {{Fact}} tags. It would be helpful if someone would follow along behind me and do a bit of cleanup. AndyJones 22:02, 17 May 2006 (UTC)

Here's one that I question: In 1992, Astrud Gilberto was the first Jazz artist to perform at the "House of Blues" (Chicago). Hm. House of Blues first opened on Thanksgiving 1992 in Cambridge. This one might be hard to verify. Might want to ask management if they've got a copy of the playbill or something of the sort. Likewise, the attendance record stuff won't be easy to verify; in fact, I'd be inclined to strike that entire paragraph as unverifiable. --jpgordon∇∆∇∆ 23:58, 17 May 2006 (UTC)

Did the part about "she did not perform in nightclubs out of stage fright. ... in 1982 she resumed singing at night clubs." also come from her management? I saw her (and met her) in a nightclub in New York City (a club whose name I - regrettably - cannot remember). Since I moved from NYC to Florida at the end of 1980, the nighclub appearance must have been before 1982. (As an aside, I spoke with her briefly, away from the the other patrons, when she took a break with - I'm guessing - her manager. I introduced myself and told her how much I enjoyed her music. She was gracious and polite, and left me with an impression of being a thoroughly charming lady.) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.185.166.96 (talk) 20:56, 14 March 2008 (UTC)

Getz/Gilberto relationship?

Might you include something about the relationship between Stan Getz and Astrud Gilberto? I've only encountered passing references to their relationship. Did it lead to Astrud and Joao Gilberto getting divorced?Cwoodw1 16:16, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

• Dunno; got any references you can point to that discuss it? --jpgordon^∇∆∇∆ 17:34, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

Getz/Gilberto Relationship

I had read some blog posts and amazon.com reviews about a Getz/Gilberto affair. But I wanted to get some documentation before posting here. I found some information in Donald L. Maggin's book, Stan Getz: A Life in Jazz (New York: William Morrow and Company, 1996). According to Maggin, "Astrud personified sex and romance for Stan as well as for the multitudes, and--despite constant squabbling about her salary and record royalties--the two of them began an affair while on tour in July 1964. Thus began the most notorious of Stan's infidelities while married to Monica. She claims she never knew anything about them." (222) And on the next page, he says, "The week before Christmas 1964 Astrud left Stan's band and bed when their dispute concerning her compensation reached a climax in a torrid shouting match." (223) I love Stan Getz's and Astrud Gilberto's music, but I was curious as to whether their collaborations were more than professional.Cwoodw1 23:26, 25 July 2007 (UTC)

• I'd be wary of this; BLP and all. --jpgordon^∇∆∇∆ 01:23, 26 July 2007 (UTC)

While I can't provide documentation, I can say that at least part of what you wrote above WRT an Astrud/Stan relationship is true. I wasn't there at the time, but in recent years I've been in touch with a few people who were directly involved with both and whom in separate occasions have mentioned a relationship and its developments.

Also, from the same sources I heard that it wasn't Joao Gilberto the person who wanted her to sing on Getz/Gilberto, much on the contrary...

How important and deserving to be publicly known that is, is another matter; sometimes the line between "encyclopedia" and "celebrity gossip" gets blurry. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 189.78.10.161 (talk) 23:10, 27 December 2008 (UTC)

The affair is documented in two published biographies of Stan Getz; I see no reason why it couldn't be mentioned in this article. Peter G Werner (talk) 10:42, 30 December 2010 (UTC)

How is she regarded in Brazil?

I'm not sure if this is relevant to the article, although it may be, on the basis of how she should be categorised - i.e as an important Brazilian Bossa Nova artist or as an American jazz musician ( I use the national terms with reference to musical genre, not nationality - obviously she's Brazilian)

I only ask, because almost all of the Brazilians I have met who are fans/collectors of their own country's music, together with Brazilian DJs I have also spoken with, tell me that in Brazil she is regarded principally as an American jazz musician and that other artists such as Nara Leao are considered more authentically Brazilian in their musical idiom.

If you are a fan or a member of her management/PR team, then please don't attack me - I only ask the question. Partly out of curiosity and partly because I wonder if it might be relevant to the article to indicate her status as an artist in her native country. Carnivalist (talk) 19:15, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

Once upon a summertime

I had a tape by this title. Dunno if it was a disc. Probably was. Should it be added to discography?--79.76.188.14 (talk) 21:26, 9 March 2010 (UTC)

Suggested Updates

Hi, here's what I came here looking to find out. Maybe such information would be useful to other users. What's the latest information that would be appropriate for the article? Is she still singing? If so, is she touring, or is it local? Has she retired? semi-retired? Where is she living? --Lacarids (talk) 20:57, 9 November 2012 (UTC)

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AllMusic

This source is marked as "unreliable." AllMusic is used extensively all over Wikipedia. I added a hidden comment about this, but it was been removed with the edit summary "Remove comment inappropriate for the article. discuss on talk page." 205.239.40.3 (talk) 09:32, 7 June 2023 (UTC)

It's based off of WP:ALLMUSIC.—Bagumba (talk) 09:34, 7 June 2023 (UTC)

That link redirects to Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Perennial sources, but AllMusic does not appear in that table? 205.239.40.3 (talk) 09:39, 7 June 2023 (UTC)

Go to the "RhythmOne" entry (sometime redirects on WP are wonky). —Bagumba (talk) 09:43, 7 June 2023 (UTC)

Oh thanks. So it says: "There is consensus that RhythmOne websites are usable for entertainment reviews with attribution. Some editors question the accuracy of these websites for biographical details and recommend more reliable sources when available." The source is currently supporting these claims: "In addition, he [Marcelo] collaborated as co-producer of the albums Live in New York (1996) and Temperance (1997). Her son Gregory Lasorsa played guitar on the Temperance album on the song "Beautiful You", which features singer Michael Franks" These are the sort of basic personnel information details that can be gained from the album sleeve? 205.239.40.3 (talk) 09:55, 7 June 2023 (UTC)

I look at it another way. Liner notes have lots of trivia. Is it worth mentioning if no secondary sources can be cited that deemed it worthy of mention?—Bagumba (talk) 10:09, 7 June 2023 (UTC)

Also, I believe the attribution being referred to is WP:INTEXT attribution i.e. "according to AllMusic", not merely that there's a citation. —Bagumba (talk) 10:12, 7 June 2023 (UTC)

No problem with adding "according to AllMusic". I'd see collaboration with her two sons as notable. And of course Michael Franks is notable in his own right. 205.239.40.3 (talk) 10:28, 7 June 2023 (UTC)

If it truly is on the liner notes, you're better off citing the CD directly than AllMusic. Per an AllMusic thread, it suggested using WorldCat; Gilberto's listing is here. You could just list the OCLC number as an identifier. For comparison with authors' lists of works, people similiarly list the ISBN as a sufficient source.—Bagumba (talk) 12:12, 7 June 2023 (UTC)

Thank you for the advice. I do not have Live in New York and discogs.com does not even have any images. But I suspect the credits are all in Japanese anyway. As for Temperance, discogs.com has all the credits here, but can't be used because of its alleged unreliability. 205.239.40.3 (talk) 12:31, 7 June 2023 (UTC)

Can AllMusic or http://www.astrudgilberto.com/discography.htm be used as sources in the Discography section? Thanks. 205.239.40.3 (talk) 12:42, 7 June 2023 (UTC)

Given WP:ALLMUSIC and the fact that there are alternatives, why? As for her website, its not an independent source, but I personally don't suspect anything in this case.—Bagumba (talk) 04:24, 8 June 2023 (UTC)

I replaced AllMusic with her website for the discography. —Bagumba (talk) 05:22, 8 June 2023 (UTC)

I looked at that AllMusic link it only supports the existence of Temperance, which was already established by WaPo. Otherwise, the AllMusic link says nothing about her sons. It should just be removed, unless verifiable through older sources (beware of citogenesis, as some reports of her death are just lifting it from WP)—Bagumba (talk) 07:18, 8 June 2023 (UTC)

Thank you. AllMusic album entries can be very variable. 205.239.40.3 (talk) 08:23, 8 June 2023 (UTC)