Talk:Arpad Elo/Archive 1

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Archive 1

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As he's Hungarian, is his name "Árpád Élő" or "Élő Árpád"? If Élő is indeed his family name (as the article implies), I'm fairly certain his names are in the wrong order in the introduction. Of course, he may be an exception to the rule. Xyzzyva 17:53, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

Name of article

Why the unexplained move some time ago from Arpad Elo to Árpád Élő? That is one of the most egregious abuses of the Wikipedia:Naming conventions rules I have ever seen. Naming conventions in general are based on how a person/place/thing/whatever is best known in English.

In this case, we can just as well look at how this world-renowned person (at least in the rating system for which he is the eponym) is known in any language whatsoever, and the results would be the same.

Here we have an American who spent all, or at least almost all, of his life in the United States, According to the introduction of the article itself, he himself spelled his name Arpad Elo. Any chess playing he did that is remembered today was done as an American whose name was Arpad Elo; his development of the rating system took place after he had been an American for decades.

He is best known, of course, in connection with the Elo rating system. Nobody ever uses anything other than Elo or ELO in connection with that rating system; nor has anyone found any reason to add any redirects from anything other than variants including one of those spellings.

In a Google search for the exact phrase "Elo rating system", and excluding articles with the word "Wikipedia" to lower the effect of the usage here on the results, there are 986 hits, of which 409 of them are displayed in the results. So what do those results show:

  1. In none of them is the spelling in connection with the rating system "Élő". It is always "Elo" or "ELO".
  2. Only two of those 409, in the key word in context display of the results, include the "Élő" spelling anywhere in those results, and one of them is a webpage in Chinese or some other East Asian language. That's despite the Élő spelling being used in the search itself. In those two cases, it is used in the name "Árpád Élő", and both could well result from the usage here on Wikipedia.

Actually, we also don't even have any evidence whatsoever of what the original spelling in any of his birth records or whatever in his part of Austria-Hungary would have been over a century ago, either, even if that had any relevance to the article name itself. Not even from any unreliable source (other than Wikipedia itself), let alone any reliable source. No discussion whatsoever of the name change other than the name order comment above which came in only recently, not related to the move much earlier, and that issue is also addressed somewhere in naming conventions; even if he had remained a Hungarian, it should be given name first in the English Wikipedia.

Clearly this is a misnomer. Yes, a redirect should exist from Árpád Élő, and it remains behind. It certainly should not be the name of the article, however. Gene Nygaard 23:00, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

The original names (in their own languages)

There is a discussion on correctness of original names usage. I suggest to look at solid sources on chess. One of the best is http://www.olimpbase.org/ (see, http://www.olimpbase.org/statistics/all_id01.html). Special attention to such persons as Gene Nygaard and his supporters. -- Mibelz 10:54, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

I suggest Mibelz look at it himself. The statistics page does not have Arpad Elo; this page mentions him without diacritics. Septentrionalis 01:57, 19 November 2006 (UTC)
It's HIS name, his correct name. That's undeniable, any search for "Árpád Élő" will prove it. Wikipedia's accuracy should not be compromised.--Húsönd 05:56, 19 November 2006 (UTC)
A search for it proves nothing. About 99% or more of any results showing an "Árpád Élő" spelling are from Wikipedia, or from clones and various other sources that have picked it up from Wikipedia. It is not a spelling he ever used. It certainly is not correct in the sense of being the proper name to choose for the one slot available for an article's name. The only real question is whether or not it ever was, at any time in his life, proper to spell his name as "Árpád Élő".
OTOH, you can see with just the reliable sources cited in the article itself, that the "Arpad Elo" spelling is proper. There are no squiggles in his name at chessgames.com, and there are no squiggles in his name in the book he authored, cited in the article.
I think a Texan would say that you, Husond, are "all hat and no cattle". Stop feeding us your unsupported speculation. Cite a published, reliable source showing that Arpad Elo ever used any other spelling of his name after coming to America as a child. Show us that he ever competed in a chess tournament as "Árpád Élő". Show us that he ever published a book, a magazine article, or anything else about his Elo rating system using the spelling "Árpád Élő" for his name. For that matter, cite a published, reliable source that Arpad Elo ever used any other name as a child in Hungary before coming to the United States at the age of 10. Show us a published birth record or something of the sort. Show us previously published emigration lists or something of the sort. Show us with verifiable sources that the "Árpád Élő" could ever be considered "correct" for any purpose whatsoever, let alone for the article title.
Note that a claim that this was his birth name was tagged as needing a citation for over a month, and never backed up.
But as User:Husond knows quite well from his involvement in a previous naming debate, even showing that an American's name has sometimes been written with diacritics is not determinative of the correct name for us to use. Gene Nygaard 19:34, 19 November 2006 (UTC)
Once again you cite the mistakes of others to justify the perpetuation of a mistake. Árpád Élő is Hungarian, he was definitely born with that name, for in Hungary you couldn't name otherwise ("á", "é" and "ő" are separate letters in the Hungarian alphabet actually). If you want to move the article then it should be you to prove that he changed his name in America just because he disliked the "squiggles" as much as you do. The fact that he was credited more times as "Arpad Elos" is, once again, easily explained by practical issues: the fact that those letters are not represented in English keyboards will naturally cause a general disregard for them. But this is supposed to be an encyclopedia, not some sloppy chess competition organizers, and we can add diacritics easily so there is absolutely no justification for your endless attempts to remove them which ultimately may severely compromise the accuracy of Wikipedia. --Húsönd 19:13, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
Husond wrote: "for in Hungary you couldn't name otherwise"
I'd say turnabout is fair play. I never used to believe in the recurrent bills to establish "English as the Official Language" in the United States, but after dealing with the likes for you far too many times, I'm going to push my representatives in the House and Senate to support such a bill, and not any milquetoast version either, but one with some teeth in it, and requiring people to use the English alphabet and outlawing non-English names as well. A law backed up by real language police, like the Hungarians and French and Quebeckers have. After all, we have every bit as much to establish our own identity in the use of our language as anybody else has. Gene Nygaard 10:57, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
Gene, your fanaticism was pretty obvious already, but there was really no need for you to submit yourself to derision with such comment. I mean, what kind of impact do you expect to cause? Do you verily believe that anybody would give any relevance to your personal anger against other languages? Such nationalism sounds so immature and old fashioned. Besides, wCWikipedia is pretty global, and for your concern English is spoken outside the US, so how come you decide to bring local issues to this discussion as if the US had jurisdiction over the English language? One would think that Wikipedia is the perfect place for people to broaden their perspectives by interacting with users from all over the world, but apparently that doesn't really work for you.--Húsönd 18:07, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
What does the United States hve to do with this? You can't be serious, Husond. How about the fact that Arpad Elo was an American for 79 years and 10 months.
Such nationalism sounds so immature and old fashioned. You are damn right such misplaced nationalism that tries to give an 80-year-long American a foreign name is pretty immature. Gene Nygaard 20:22, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
He was "definitely born with that name"? On your say-so, Husond? No, that doesn't cut it. Damn it, Husond. Verify that. Cite a reliable source.
Husond, it is never a mistake to use the English alphabet in English. Most immigrants to English-speaking countries do in fact choose to do that with their own names.
However, Arpad Elo was not "Hungarian". He came to America as a 9-year-old kid, became an American citizen, got most of his schooling here, became a professor in an American college, and played chess as an American, and developed his rating system as an American. Gene Nygaard 19:26, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

Rabbits out of a hat...and names out of thin air

As pointed out above, the part of the new rules appears to be " Don't let doubt about the exact spelling, hold you up—just make one up out of thin air, anything to avoid the inherent ugliness of a plain vanilla English alphabet." Don't waste any time looking for a verifiable source, just do it and move on and do a couple dozen more in the time you would spend dillydallying to get one done.

Note that a claim about the birth spelling of Arpad Elo's name was tagged as needing verification for over a month without any action, and that repeated requests in this discussion for Husond, Valentinian, or anybody else to verify this fact with a cite to reliable, published sources are a challenge that remains unmet.

Here is Arpad Elo's immigration record from http://www.ellisisland.org 

First Name:  	     Arpad
Last Name: 	        Ello
Ethnicity: 	        Hungary Mag
Last Place of Residence: 	Egyharaskeno, Hungaryy
Date of Arrival: 	Feb 12, 1913
Age at Arrival:  9y    Gender:  M    Marital Status:  S  
Ship of Travel: 	Zeeland
Port of Departure: 	Antwerp
Manifest Line Number: 	0008

Looking at the scanned actual manifest of the ship Zeeland (you need to register and log in to see it), you can see 

Éllő, Forenenć   38  f
  "   Pál        16  m
  "   Borbala    15  f
  "   Arpád       9  m

going to Bedford, Ohio to "husband & father Ellő Ferencs" (from separate scan of other half of page). There appears to be an accent mark on the É in the mother's name, but not in the fathers, so maybe what looks like one by the mother's is just a spurious mark from writing the name above.

Therefore, I have verified either "Arpád Éllő" or "Arpád Ellő" (or the inverted name order versions, as in the father's name there, still redlinks as these are) as a possible name at the time of leaving Hungary, but not "Árpád Élő", a fictitious spelling for which nobody has ever provided any specific cite to any non–Wikipedia-derived source, reliable or not) as a legitimate, verifiable version, from a published, reliable source (the ship's manifest) of his Hungarian name.

That still would not be the proper name for this article in any case. It is obviously not a spelling he continued to use.

Note that searching for the exact phrase "Arpád Éllő" or "Árpád Éllő" gets exactly zero Google hits. It doesn't have the dubious advantage of having been pulled out of thin air by some past Wikipedia editor. It is not a spelling ever used by Arpad Elo at a time when he did anything that people would remember him for. Nor is "Arpad Ello", for that matter (one hit to a dead page, in a long list apparently aimed at catching typos in someone's search, including a zillion permutations of doubling of any one letter in the name and getting the space in the wrong place).

Another little bit of evidence that none of the moving crew involved here had any real belief that Arpad Elo was actually a Hungarian in any real sense is the fact that Élő Árpád and Elo Arpad remain redlinks as well.

N.B. Mibelz never cited any sources, reliable or otherwise, to support any of the moves nominated for reversal here. Gene Nygaard 14:37, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

Holy Grail?

A reference (Romániai Magyar Szó, 2003. augusztus 26.) supposedly in support of the unsupportable "Árpád Imre Élő" name for this article was added with the "Holy Grail" comment. I am removing this reference from the article because I don't see that it is any way relevant to the article.

  1. I can't find "Árpád Imre Élő" in the refernce. Indeed I don't see "Arpad Elo" in the reference either.
  2. It isn't clear to me what relevance the Hungarian Human Rights foundation has with a Hungarian-American mathematician and chess player.
  3. Even if a Hungarian web page were to use the Árpád Imre Élő spelling, that would have absolutely no bearing on how Elo's name is spelled in English, and this is the English language wikipedia.

— Quale 04:01, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

This has been discussed thoroughly. Please do not remove content unilaterally. Thank you.--Húsönd 04:11, 26 November 2006 (UTC)
  1. The thorough discussion overwhelmingly supports Arpad Elo as the correct title for this page.
  2. You are the one acting unilaterally.
  3. Read WP:ENGLISH. I point you in particular to "If a native spelling uses different letters than the most common English spelling (eg, Wien vs. Vienna), only use the native spelling as an article title if it is more commonly used in English than the anglicized form." (emphasis added)
  4. Address the points I raised regarding the supposed reference: 1) Where does "Árpád Imre Élő" appear in the Holy Grail reference? 2) What relevance does a Hungarian language web page have for an American physicist and chess player? Quale 09:52, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

User:Calton trying to pick a fight

User:Calton is trying to start irrational edit warring over the name of this article. I challenge him to provide any justification whatsoever for his move.

This is a copy of a message I posted on his talk page:

What, exactly, is the idea of moving Arpad Elo to a name nobody, ever, anywhere uses, outside an old Wikipedia listing and its clones. A move totally contrary to everything in Wikipedia:Naming conventions. A name totally contrary to common sense.

No, this is not another unilateral move. It is a longstanding article name, discussed without objection on the talk page. This is an American university professor and chess player, not known under any spelling other than "Arpad Elo" in any chess publications, not known under any spelling other than "Arpad Elo" in connection with his professorship at Marquette University.

He is best known for developing a chess ranking system. A system that is always, universally, everywhere in the world, known as the "Elo" system, though it is sometimes capitalized as the "ELO" system, often because people don't realize it is a person's name and mistakenly think it is an acronym.

Now, please move that back, or I will have to find the appropriate place for a complaint against your actions.

Can you cite any verifiable, reliable source showing that Arpad Elo ever used any other spelling, that he was ever known under any other spelling in any chess tournament, that he was ever known under any other spelling as a professor? I bet not. Gene Nygaard 05:15, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Naming conventions (people) is pretty clear that articles about people should 1) use the most generally recognizable name and 2) be in English. Unless I'm missing something here I'll revert to the English spelling tomorrow. --Duk 07:29, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
For what it is worth, his famous book says "Arpad Elo". Bubba73 (talk), 20:18, 2 May 2007 (UTC)
The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the debate was no consensus. -- tariqabjotu 16:43, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

Requested move

Multiple moves, as listed below — Revert a series of edits by Mibelz, most or all of them chess related, all made without discussion. The ones listed here are contrary to naming conventions standards. Many of these people have moved to English-speaking countries and are known for their history in chess competitions under the original article name, and many are also known as authors (especially of books about chess) of English-language books published under that name. In many Mibelz has also deliberately added incorrect sort keys which result in the articles being mis-sorted in categories. In the listing below, I have included some additional identifying information, with User:Mibelz edit summaries when making the move placed in quotation marks. Gene Nygaard 09:16, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

Note Several users expressed their opposition to associating the article moves stated above to this Árpád Élő's. Each of the moves should have its own discussion instead of being tagged along.--Húsönd 18:14, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
It is just a pattern of unexplained moves done for bad reasons, exactly the sort of thing that should be considered as a group. If enough people express interest in condisering any particular ones separately, that can be done. It has been done on other multiple nominations in the past. It should only be done after the moves are first reverted, with the burden of proof of the reasonableness of the move placed on Mibelz who wants to move these from their established article names. But there are only a couple of them that anybody has raised any serious objections about. Gene Nygaard 20:32, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

Survey

Add  * '''Support'''  or  * '''Oppose'''  on a new line followed by a brief explanation, then sign your opinion using ~~~~.
  • I support in some cases the English variant (Arpad Elo for example), that is in cases where the people lived most of their lives in English speaking countries and used the English variant of spelling. In other cases I oppose (e.g. Luděk Pachman, who was not German but Czech and I myself own some books authored by him as Luděk Pachman) - then the local version should be retained. So we should deal it on a case-by-case basis, I think.--Ioannes Pragensis 10:45, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
  • If it is first reverted, and the burden of justifying the unexplained move is placed on those seeking to move it, I have no problem pulling Luděk Pachman out for individual consideration. We can just move the discussion for that particular move back to the moved talk page. But to do it any other way, in light of this string of hasty, unexplained, and largely improper moves, would not be fair. The burden of proof belongs on User:Mibelz. Since Pachman published several books and they were published in more than one language, it may well be that they were published under various spellings of his name, and there is also the factor of the name under which he competed in international competitions. Then the question becomes whether he is well known in English under one of those, and whether or not there is any real cause to make the move for that or any other reason. Gene Nygaard 14:17, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
  • Strong Oppose Correct name is as it currently is (Árpád Élő).--Húsönd 15:56, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
Also strongly opposing the following associated proposed moves: Michał Waszyński, Stanisław Ulam, Povilas Tautvaišas, Elmārs Zemgalis, Kārlis Ozols, Géza Füster, Luděk Pachman, Pál Benkő and Vladimir Vuković.--Húsönd 16:05, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
Arpad Elo never spelled it any other way. He never published anything about his Elo rating system under any other name (setting aside irrelevant things such as initials or use of middle name), and nobody ever spells that system with anything other than "Elo" or "ELO" (except some of the nonsense we have seen on Wikipedia, also picked up by some clones). He never competed in a chess tournament under any other name. He never taught a class under any other name. And even in death, he is "ARPAD ELO" in the Social Security Death Index. Árpád Élő cannot possibly be the "correct" title according to Wikipedia:Naming conventions. User:Husond just becomes totally irrational when it comes to slapping on diacritics even in places where they do not belong. Gene Nygaard 16:20, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
Don't mock my neurons, Gene. Make a quick search for Árpád Élő and you'll soon see that that's the correct name of that person, whether or not most have referred to him without the diacritics. I should also remind you that in the very recent past it was extremely hard to reproduce the Hungarian letter "ő" (not long ago computer fonts didn't have it) so no wonder he has been credited without it. But that's not an excuse for misspelling the name as you fancy it.--Húsönd 21:38, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
  • Couldn't care less which spelling is used, but we shouldn't be fighting about it. Articles should be named according to the guidelines. If people don't like the guidelines then they should take the debate there. How would wikipedia function if every time an editor disagreed with a guideline they started a poll outside the guideline talk page to subvert it? Once editors become emotionally vested in a debate to such an extent that it becomes non-productive fighting, then those editors should set it aside and find something else to work on. I mentioned above that I was going to rename the article per Wikipedia:Naming conventions (people) after a day, but fuck it - I'm learning not to fight over stupid shit. --Duk 16:23, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
What would you have? Nobody can ever move pages? That isn't acceptable either. Or would you have it that every article can be moved once, and then that move must always be deemed correct? That's silly, too. If they can move pages, those page moves are often going to be wrong, and need to be corrected. Those guidelines do give us guidance about what the names should be. But in order to apply those guidelines, there often needs to be interpretation of the facts involved. Wibelz did not claim his moves were in accordance with the guidelines, and many clearly were not. Some not nominated here may have been justified, but no case for them was made in any discussion either. They clearly ought to remain subject to challenge. What we have here is an editor making a series of moves disregarding those guidelines, making those moves without discussion and without justification. That's why this discussion belongs here. It does not belong on the guidelines pages. Gene Nygaard 16:37, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
OK, you make good points about discussing it here. I know it's frustrating for an editor to try and do the right thing in a consistent way according to the guidelines, only to watch others ignore the guidelines. In this case it's clear, articles about people should 1) use the most generally recognizable name and 2) be in English. Since some editors don't accept this simple and clear instruction, then their problem is with the guideline and not with this particular article. That's why it doesn't make sense to argue about it here -- unless you can get them to actually read the guideline, understand it and conclude that guidelines are generally helpful and should usually (but not necessarily always) be followed. So discussing is good, but a poll in the wrong place that subverts a guideline isn't so good IMO. --Duk 17:25, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
  • Support. This is the English version of the encylopedia and articles should have names using the English alphabet. Most English language keyboards can't even type many of the names above. I have no problem with there being a redirect from the native language version in cases where the language uses Latin letters. Please see Wikipedia:Naming conventions (use English) for guidance. --StuffOfInterest 17:38, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
also Wikipedia:Naming conventions (people) --Duk 17:46, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
  • I am afraid that Gene Nygaard does not understand an idea to write names in original languages (Latin alphabet). All of the presented examples were written first in English, and then moved to native names. In that case, it is always possible to find a name of wanted person, for every users who know only English version or non-English one (Lithuanian, Latvian, Hungarian, Czech, Polish, Croatian, etc.). --Mibelz 23:55, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
If the redirects weren't there, they should have been created. But the redirects from the names you moved these articles to will remain behind when they are moved back. You will still be able to find them, but they will properly be listed under the names they are best known by. Gene Nygaard 02:06, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
  • Strongly support. WP:NAME#Use English words is policy; we should use the form used and expected in English, for the sake of our readership. Anyone who wants something else has two options:
    • Demonstrate strong consensus to change policy at the policy page;
    • or create a fork providing their version of Wikipedia.
For Stanislaw Ulam, see this title page. There may be specific evidence demonstrating English usage of diacritics for some others of these; but it hasn't been presented. A link like http://www.olimpbase.org, which leads to a page with hardly any personal names (none of those here in question), is worthless. Which page does Mibelz mean? This is the only olimpbase page I can find with Arpad Elo on it - and it does not use diacritics. Septentrionalis 01:33, 19 November 2006 (UTC)
  • Strong Support The most common spelling in English should be used every time for all articles. Masterhatch 01:50, 19 November 2006 (UTC)
  • Strong Oppose any mass moves. This material falls into at least two categories. If a person moves to another country and actively changes his / her native name to something completely different, then the choice is simple: list under the new name; e.g. "George Michael", not "Georgios Kyriacos Panayiotou". The "English spelling prevails" argument is also is very relevant for royalty and well-known historical figures, so "Alexander the Great" not "Megas Alexandros". However, ordinary people often simply have their names misspelled due to misunderstandings / technical limitations (e.g. printers often owned typefaces only including French and German diacritics). It is also problematic that many names have been "transliterated" / "translated" differently by different people, thus increasing the risk of more duplicate articles. Some of the examples mentioned above might be relevant for a rename but some are clearly not: E.g. Barcza never left Hungary, so there is no reason at all to deviate from the name he used all his life. Vladimir Vuković was Croatian and lived in Austria-Hungary and Yugoslavia throughout his life, so the same case with him. The most sensible solution would seem to be to examine case-by-case how people referred to themselves (naturally with the beforementioned exceptions: royalty, historical figures (Plutarch) and a very small number of modern people (e.g. Isaac Asimov)). Wikipedia has no policy that names should actually be translated into English and articles about both well-known and obscure people generally use the native spelling; e.g. Slobodan Milošević. This practice should continue and be employed except where very strong cases can be argued for deviating. Redirects can take care of the rest. Valentinian (talk) / (contribs) 21:27, 19 November 2006 (UTC)
That is not a proper response, since multiple nominations are specifically provided for at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion.
The burden of proof ought to be on the one making the moves. Mibelz has offered no proof that this is the spelling that any of these people actually used, nor that any of these people are best known in English under the spelling which he used. He has made mass moves for improper reasons, but even the improper reasons were never explained except for the brief edit summaries quoted above. He never discussed any of these moves before making them. His moves ought to be reverted. You make the case yourself by your point about the stage name of George Michael, and that is even more applicable when you are dealing with the names that people used for all purposes. Gene Nygaard 22:47, 19 November 2006 (UTC)
I simply draw the line differently than you, and I have as much right to have my opinion as you have to have yours. If a person has taken active action to change his / her native name to something different then by all means update to the most recent name (e.g. George Michael). However, most people do not do this (something which particularly applies to first-generation immigrants). Their names might often have been rendered less than perfectly in the past, very often due to technical limitations, but that is no reason to continue such practices. I have seen many bad examples of proper names with a native form transliterated through German or French and then transliterated again into English, resulting in very inconsistent renderings for the same persons / places and duplicate articles. Since proper names have been transliterated in many different ways throughout the ages, mixing these standards is confusing and counterproductive.
Since it is often difficult to determine if / when any person in question changed his / her name, it will have to be decided on a case-by-case basis. E.g. two of the persons you mentioned lived in Hungary for half their lives and became famous there before emigrating, but merely trying to Anglicanize them will be felt by many as disregarding this part of their story. Two others never left their countries of birth, however printers with poor equipment and a "nobody will ever care about this" attitude rendered their names imperfectly when publishing some of their works. One of your examples was a German citizen but of Czech extraction. I can't help but notice that the German Wikipedia does not try to Germanize his name. Such practices are common but - at least in Europe - considered bad style. Unfortunately, it also spread into the Internet age since Microsoft was incredibly slow in adapting proper support for such characters (something that gave Microsoft a bad name among many Europeans). I honestly don't believe that you are editing in bad faith, however, I am not sure you realize how strongly such "forced" changes of personal names is frowned upon in many societies. History is full of examples of one nationality repressing the other by outlawing one language and forcibly changing the relevant groups' personal names administratively, while punishing those that dared to continue using their original names. In Europe, this kind of administrative behaviour often produced hatred between nationalities, often lasting many generations. Furthermore, both personal and geographical names often have variants very closely related, but not identical, resulting in confusion when one name is accidentally changed to another.
I should also like to point out that the English language is written in more than one way, variations that have more causes than it makes sense to repeat here. E.g. the official webpage of the European Union is clearly written by native speakers of British English, however, it does not change the native spellings for proper names using Latin-based alphabets. Most Irish are native speakers of English as well, but they don't change the spellings of Irish-based named either. I see no reason why Wikipedia should spell German, French and Spanish names the native way and Japanese names with macrons when relevant, but using a different standard for other languages also using the Latin alphabet. Ñ and Ç are not part of the English alphabet either, yet they are used all over this website and a big box of "non-standard" characters is located just below this edit window. I don't see this as an error but as a great benefit to people trying to learn these languages - in particular since the proper use of diacritics is absolutely essential to ensure correct pronounciation in a large number of languages due to both closely-related words and closely-related sounds. Using diacritics is also a great help when people try to locate more information about these persons / places. A good application of redirects can take care of the rest. Regards. Valentinian (talk) / (contribs) 11:26, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
Nothing you say here justifies your strong oppose to these nominations. Much of what you say here is wrong, certainly debatable, and I can deal with that later. But in all your explanations, you are not saying that none of these should moved, but rather that each of them should be considered on an individual basis. But, of course, Mibelz never discussed any of these on an individual basis before he made his moves--that's why he got so many of them wrong. You need to make that clearer for the people who will have to interpret the results here. Gene Nygaard 15:27, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
If I chose to strongly oppose something or not is up to me to decide. You seem to believe that I don't know what I am talking about. Well, I am quite comfortable knowing that many other editors have taken the same position as myself in similar debates in the past. I believe that Mibelz is essentially right in his actions here and that articles should use a person's given name unless exceptional circumstances apply. If you present proof that any of these persons are household names on par with Alexander the Great, Plutarch or similar or that these persons made an active effort to change their names, then I am willing to reconsider them on a case-to-case basis. E.g. the article on Victor Borge should be located under this name since he made an active effort to change his name from Børge Rosenbaum. However, I see no such proof presented on this page. Unless this is established, I oppose deviations from the original names. I still see no arguments why one standard should apply for French, Spanish and German material but another for other Latin-based alphabets. I support one standard for all Latin-based material. The box of international characters below the edit window does not discriminate between all the Latin characters shown there, so neither should we. Valentinian (talk) / (contribs) 17:26, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
Since User:Husond isn't rushing to take up the challenge, I'll issue the same challenge to you (and to anyone else who runs across this discussion). Can you cite any reliable published source that would verify that Arpad Elo ever, anywhere, spelled his name "Árpád Élő"? Or even any other reason (specify it) why that spelling could ever be considered acceptable, let alone be the proper choice for the one slot available for an article's name? Note that Wikipedia is not a reliable source, nor is something that someone else got from Wikipedia. Gene Nygaard 17:31, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
I also note that your objection, as Duk pointed out about others before you, is to existing policies and guidelines, and is not based on Mibelz's moves being in accordance with those guidelines. Gene Nygaard 17:34, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
If this is how you interpret my vote, then I should have been more clear: I am opposing what I believe is a misinterpretation of said rules and guidelines (I am also keeping in mind that Wikipedia is not a book of law.) One of my own POWs does sneak in as well; I do not like seeing other nationalities offended, no matter how. I do not believe it is your intention to do so, however, language has been used for this purpose quite a lot of times in European history, which is why many Europeans are cautious to avoid being accused of making the same mistakes as our ancestors did. (If anybody considers my approach to be too cautious, I respectfully disagree.)
I am no expert on Hungary or Hungarian culture, but I definitely know that Árpád can only be spelled with the diacritics, since I have encountered that name many times. But why don't you make a post on the noticeboard of the Hungarian Wikipedians? We could be lucky they had a few chess buffs around. I do believe I mentioned a good reason before: Using the names people received at birth, baptism or a similar ritual is a good idea unless we have extremely good reasons to do otherwise. Why? Because a given name is a lot easier to verify rather than speculating on when / if somebody changed his or her name or when somebody achieved enough fame to be known under a new name. What about a famous person leaving Europe, settling in the U.S. for a few years, and then returning or moving to a third destination? When is he / she famous / English enough? After 1 year, 2, 10? Is citizenship necessary? Should the person have represented the new country in any way? Should he / she have worked for the government of his new country? What if the person spoke no or next to no English? Etc etc. This problem applies even more to people who never left Europe in the first place, as is the case with your Croatian examples. I have explained how I believe these policies should be interpreted but I respect if you disagree. I have neither the time nor the money to go down and buy books just to make a point. However, I still don't see any reason at all why one standard should be applied to West Europeans and a different one for North and East Europeans. This is an international encyclopedia, based in the United States and written by means of the English language. It is not an American encylopedia. I also consider the spirit of "Avoid Systematic Bias" rather significant. The number of French, German and Spanish-speaking Wikipedians is pretty high (both native speakers and foreigners). I would be very surprised if these editors had not been through this discussion a thousand times before, yet apparently reaching what seems like a consensus for naming material about these countries / nationalities. The number of East and North European Wikipedians, on the other hand, is significantly smaller. However, I do not believe that numerical differences between nationalities should justify one nation being treated differently than the other. Such an approach would go against many of my impressions of / hopes for Wikipedia. My regards. Valentinian (talk) / (contribs) 20:12, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
No, Valentinian. "I definitely know that" doesn't cut it for you any more than it does for Husond. Verify it. Gene Nygaard 20:31, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
Hungarians do indeed use the spelling "Árpád" for holders of that name. Here is a page on the Hungarian king of that name [1] and here a description of a bridge named after him [2]. Here is the webpage of an ethnic Hungarian MEP by that name[3] I am not 100% sure what the entymology of "Élő" is but it is definitely an actual name and a Hungarian word. It seems to be derived from the word for "Living". This page is about chess and uses the same spelling [4] (the column beginning with 2813) referring to his rating. This page is about a Hungarian academic with the same family name [5]; one more Hungarian with this name [6], and one more seems to be hosting a tv show [7]. Again, I believe the Hungarian Wikipedians might have more information about him and Hungarian spelling and I still don't see any reason why the same naming standards shouldn't be applied to both West, East, North and South Europeans. In particular for those that never left Europe in the first place. Valentinian (talk) / (contribs) 22:26, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
That isn't what you were asked to verify, Valentinian. Gene Nygaard 22:31, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
You asked for documentation that this was the Hungarian spelling further up this page. You also asked for "any reason" to use this name. I have presented both, more than adequately. The Hungarian links I've presented further up prove that this is indeed the Hungarian spelling of this man's name, although you claim it doesn't exist anywhere in the world (your first post on this page). I find it alarming that you try to Americanize names for people that never left their country of birth - most notably Vladimir Vuković and Gedeon Barcza - using Élő (or whatever) as leverage. A mere glance at the relevant categories prove that Wikipedia normally list Europeans under their native names, see e.g. Category:Hungarian people, Category:French people, Category:Spanish people and Category:Polish people. I've suggested asking the Hungarian Wikipedians for input, but you don't fancy this option either. As long as you insist on making a mass move of unrelated articles I strongly oppose the lot. This move might go unnoticed by the general community but if you begin making mass moves of Hungarian, Serbian, Croatian, Romanian, Danish, Swedish, Norwegian, Finnish, Faroese, Icelandic, Polish, Czech, Slovak, French or German material using a mere "English has 26 letters" argument, that will not go unnoticed. Any such action would however succeed in offending many editors and driving many of them off Wikipedia. Since you haven't answered a single one of the concerns I have listed further up this page, I see no reason to contribute further to this thread. Valentinian (talk) / (contribs) 23:35, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
So, you think that since you can point us to a foreign language page that spells the name of a long-dead king in squiggles in that language, but in that website's own English pages spells it Arpad, that some Slovakian spells his given name "Árpád", that three different people in Hungary today more than a century after our subject's birth spell their own surname "Élő", and from that we should, by some strange leap of logic, conclude that combining those two spellings is undeniably the true, God-given spelling of this person's name, and it is our duty as good Wikipedians "correct" a confused and obviously misguided (while he still lived) American who was so god-damned ignorant that he misspelled his own name as "Arpad Elo"?
And then on top of it you have the unmitigated gall to whine about the fact that the English language quite naturally is more likely to borrow from the languages most closely related to it, the ones that are in its same "family" of languages.
Excuse me for being so slow to figure out the new rules promulgated by Mibelz, Husond, and Valentinian, et al. The black-letter rule is apparently along these lines:
  • The primary rule is the more squiggles you can squeeze into a name, the better, with points awarded for the proportion of letters in the name which have diacritics. Don't let doubt about the exact spelling, hold you up—just make one up out of thin air, anything to avoid the inherent ugliness of a plain vanilla English alphabet name. Additional points are awarded in inverse proportion to the likelihood that an English-speaker can create those letters, or even distinguish one from another. If you can stấc͡k thểm ẫtờp, ữpðn, or aǂongside one anothễr or top ặnđ̣ boẗẗom ịf possible, that's worth extra bonus points! And above all else, never discuss it before making the move. That way you might be able to shift the burden of proof to someone who wants to move it back.
Something isn't right in this picture.
And before anybody complains about it, assuming good faith is a rebuttable, and in this case clearly rebutted, presumption, and in Husond's immortal words, "sarcasm doesn't equal incivility". Gene Nygaard 10:53, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
  • Support — Use English, because this is the English Wikipedia, not "Diacripedia."--Endroit 17:11, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
Cluelesspedia should it rather be then I presume.--Húsönd 17:50, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
Please be WP:CIVIL, Husond. --StuffOfInterest 17:53, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
C'mon, sarcasm doesn't equal incivility.--Húsönd 18:39, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
I apologize anyway, if that happened to sound rude.--Húsönd 18:43, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
I hope nobody was offended by my sarcasm as well, and I appologize as well. Getting back to our topic now.... I'm looking for conclusive proof of widespread English usage in the diacritic/native language-form, and I may change my vote if that happens.--Endroit 18:50, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
  • Support in general. For the record, my Google search of "Árpád Élő" returned the extact same set of results as "Arpad Elo". A quick glance of the results revealed no diacritics at all. If some of the names are more commonly presented with diacritics in English publications, then I may be inclined to support the diacritics there. However, as a rule, I think we should use the spelling that is most common. Besides, this is an English language publication, and English doesn't use diacritics, it just takes the pronunciation it creates and adds it to the long list of different ways to pronounce the same letter. Croctotheface 12:15, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
  • Opppose bundling of unrelated move requests. Discuss each case on its own merits and on its own talk page, please. Whether diacritics are English usage or not depends on the field people work in (less commonly used for hockey players, more commonly used for mathematicians). Kusma (討論) 13:36, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
    • For the record (and I don't want to speak of something I know little about, but that's never stopped me before), my understanding is that one editor undertook all of these moves at roughly the same time and without discussion or establishing consensus. If they are all related in that way, i'm OK with putting them back where they were before and then placing the burden on those who wanted to move them to where they are now (with diacritics) to establish a consensus for a move. Croctotheface 14:15, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
      • I tend to agree with this. The moves were done out of process. There should have been a discussion and concensus before they took place. At that point it is likely that guidelines such as WP:ENGLISH would have been cited which would have kept the move request from reaching concensus. --StuffOfInterest 14:27, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
  • Strong support per nominator. Several of these chess players and authors are widely known in the English speaking world under the English spelling of their names, and this is the English wikipedia. No evidence whatsoever has been provided that Elo ever spelled his name Árpád Élő, so this cannot stand. Pachman, Benko, Vukovic, and Barcza are equally well known and in English their names are never spelled with diacritics (in Barcza's case no diacritics, but he is Gideon in English). We went through similar nonsense with Savielly Tartakower, where POV-pushers tried to force a spelling never before seen in any English language publication. Quale 00:25, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
  • Oppose per Valentinian. No prejudice against some moves on individual basis. Duja► 10:32, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
  • Support all. Most if not all of these names should be without diacritics in English Wikipedia. If there are exceptions (and I'm skeptical that there are any in this particular list) then discuss these individually later. Andrewa 06:45, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

Discussion

Add any additional comments:

Moved

Per the discussion above I feel that consensus is clear enough to move this particular article because Arpad Elo spent much of his life the USA where "Arpad Elo", without the different marks, is the common spelling. This is not a general precedent for dealing with such symbols in general, especially not for people who are not commonly named in English texts. Sjakkalle (Check!) 10:27, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

I've moved the rest of the articles based on three reasons:

  1. Discussion, when discounting the ones saying "don't group discussions", was leaning towards moving them back. The move happend in mass so I see no reason not to discuss them in mass.
  2. Mass moves should have had a discussion before taking place. Really, any move other than a trivial one should make some attempt to established concensus first.
  3. Original moves went against WP:ENGLISH. It is one thing for the Hungarian Wikipedia to have accent marks, but they don't need to be used in article titles on the English version.

If you want to move these articles to the non-English names please hold a discussion before moving them again. --StuffOfInterest 15:32, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

Vladimir Vuković was the original article name, i.e. it was moved by User:Mibelz immediately after he created the article himself. Since no proof exists that he has ever left Croatia and purposefully sought to anglicize it, I'll take a liberty to move it back, in line with other from Category:Croatian people.
I'd spare the comment on the others, but I'd say that you do have a conflict of interest, having voted in the discussion above. As an admin, I could have close this poll myself judging "no consensus", but that would obviously be a conflict of interest. Your arguments 1) and 2) have merits, but I must say I think that WP:ENGLISH is the most abused Wikipedia guideline, and seeing it pulled wherever a "diacritic conflict" emerges makes me puke. It certainly should apply to cases like this (I was just lazy to do that move myself), but its application on diacritic issues is heavily, thoroughly and utterly disputed, and that fact is even acknowledged on WP:ENGLISH. I'd appreciate that it's not referenced to in diacritic disputes. Duja► 16:21, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
I couldn't agree more with Duja. I reverted StuffOfInterest's moves, as they were clearly against the positions expressed herein that the other articles should not be moved all together with this one. Furthermore, StuffOfInterest had already stated his position in favor of moving the articles, so the moves were blatant own POV enforcing. Please respect community consensus, or the lack of it.--Húsönd 17:12, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

WP:COAT

This article is a "coatrack" biography. It talks more about the Elo rating, which already has its own article, than about Arpad Elo. Probably that section should be split off and merged into the Elo rating article, and this biographical article left as a stub. Shalom Hello 03:27, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

WikiProject class rating

This article was automatically assessed because at least one WikiProject had rated the article as start, and the rating on other projects was brought up to start class. BetacommandBot 09:43, 10 November 2007 (UTC)

Reality is whatever some Wikipedia editor says it is

The two references presented so far for the birth spelling of Elo are; Ellő (see above) and Élô (see ref #1 in the article). They don't match the spelling of our article (someone correct me here if I'm wrong). All other examples of Árpád Élő (as our article spells it) that I've looked at postdate the Wikipedia entry or were explicitly derived from it.

We need to take a hard look at this to make sure reality isn't whatever some Wikipedia editor says it is. And, of course, this is completely beside the fact that Wikipedia policies for article nameing specify English spelling when it is the most recognizable, that the most common spelling for Arpad Elo is in English, that he spent his entire adult life as an American citizen using and publishing under the English spelling of his name. --Duk 05:15, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

Having Árpád Élő's birthname does not hurt its English usage. Why should Wikipedia contribute for the general misknowledge of his exact name? Plus, it's not like some editors are enforcing an incorrect name, just accuracy. I'm not a Hungarian speaker but I believe that "Ellő" is an older form of that surname (as Hungarian surname "Kiss" was simplified to "Kis"). "Élô" is incorrect, "ô" was used many times to replace "ő" when the latter did not exist in fonts. For the same reason, "Arpad Elo" occurs more often because in the US it was/is uncommon to use diacritics due to technical limitations (keyboards) and widespread misknowledge about foreign letters.--Húsönd 05:49, 26 November 2006 (UTC)
I strongly support noting Élő's birthname in the article. Unfortunately we don't have any good references to indicate what the correct spelling is. In fact, the only references we currently have disagree with our spelling. I understand what you are saying above, but your word isn't a reference. --Duk 06:01, 26 November 2006 (UTC)
Apologies, my initial comment (now stricken) was based on a very careless reading of what you wrote. Everyone agrees that Elo's birthname should be in the article in its original Hungarian spelling, if in fact we can determine what that is. The problem is that Husond and others ignore policy and guidelines such as WP:V and WP:ENGLISH that won't (or wouldn't, if Wikipedia admins would correctly discharge their duties) let them have their way with article titles. Quale 10:07, 26 November 2006 (UTC)
Yes, I agree that spelling guidelines for the English Wikipedia have been ignored here. I'm not going to fight over that. The more serious problem, and we don't know for sure that it is a problem, is the possibility that Wikipedia has introduce a fiction that has spread all over the place. --Duk 16:26, 26 November 2006 (UTC)
Birthname restored. Any google search returns results for "Árpád Imre Élő" as being the birthname, which is actually obvious considering that he was born in Hungary and could not have been named otherwise without those diacritics.--Húsönd 16:34, 26 November 2006 (UTC)
Any google search returns results for "Árpád Imre Élő" as being the birthname. Two things: 1) no, it doesn't. I just did a search for "Árpád Imre Élő" and didn't find any good references - just wikipedia, wikipedia mirrors and a bulletin board that post dated the wikipedia spelling. I _did_ find a new variation, along with a Cyrillic site that uses the English spelling. 2) If what you say is true then you should have no trouble referencing a reliable source.--Duk 16:54, 26 November 2006 (UTC)
That's because Hungarian names are written backwards, see [8] Khoikhoi 19:36, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

The source clearly mentions his Hungarian name in the "Aki rendet teremtett" section. Khoikhoi 19:34, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

Anyways, here's another source:

ÉLŐ Árpád Imre (Egyházaskesző, 1903. aug. 25. – Brookfield, USA, 1992. nov. 5.) sakkozó, fizikus, üzletember. 1913-ban szüleivel kivándorolt az USA-ba, ahol 1926 után egyetemi tanárként dolgozott. Az Amerikai Sakkszövetséget 1939-ben alapította meg. 1959-ben kidolgozta, a sakkozók játékerejét kifejező, un Élő-pontszámokat, amelyeket a Nemzetközi Sakkszövetség 1970-től hivatalosan is elfogad és alkalmaz.
Műveiből: The Rating of chessplayers. Past and Present. 1978.

Khoikhoi 19:42, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

That is not clear evidence of what his birthname is. That is a late 20th century or early 21st century imaginary reconstruction just as whatever some Wikipedia editor used as a basis for the previous, in-the-same-vein, unreferenced claim of "born as" whatever. It doesn't cite any reliable sources, and it does not claim that this was the spelling he himself ever used, nor that it is what some official recorded on a birth certificate or on a church baptism record, or in any school records or whatever. It is just somebody's notion of a standard spelling under current Hungarian spelling rules, and not at all indicative of any of the variations that may have been used in Hungarian spelling a century ago or more. Gene Nygaard 11:10, 5 February 2007 (UTC)
Plus, there is no evidence whatsoever that precise spelling at any time is of any concern for this article. Neither he nor any of the other subjects of these biographical snippets are listed with any spelling variation. Good grief, it does not even mention the "Arpad Elo" spelling he used for 80 years. Gene Nygaard 11:50, 5 February 2007 (UTC)
Looks good. I wasn't able to verify that it pre-dates the wikipedia articles, and this is a problem since so many of the references I've seen are derived from wikipedia, but it's a start. What do you think the the immigration record that spelled Ellő? --Duk 20:50, 26 November 2006 (UTC)
Yeah, I agree. As for the Ellis Island records, I'm not sure if they're the most reliable. I've used them to see the manifests of my ancestors, and they've made some mistakes. We don't know for sure if whoever wrote the manifest asked them how their name was spelled. However, assuming that the original spelling of the name was Ellő, I think the best thing to do is to find the man's birth certificate... Khoikhoi 21:01, 26 November 2006 (UTC)
They are a lot more reliable, and verifiable, that some imaginary 21st century reconstruction under the state of the Hungarian language usage in the 21st century. Furthermore, what you see as a "mistake" may not have been. The notion of a "correct spelling" even today is nowhere as strong as many of you seem to think, and a century ago it was clearly much less so, and a century before that much less yet. I don't have any Ellis Island ancestors myself, since they were all in America before it opened, but I have seen many of the entries for various other more distant relatives. The transcriptions of these usually handwritten forms are clearly not reliable and full of mistakes in the actual spelling; but in this case as in most cases, you can look right at the scans of the original manifest and verify what it actually says (you won't, of course, always be able to distinguish between similar letters, the same problem the transcribers had, but with what you already know about the individuals involved from other sources, you might be able to do a better job than they did). Gene Nygaard 11:18, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

In general, I think Duk has it right here. Wikipedia shoudl use the spelling that is most common in English language publications, as Wikipedia is in English. However, the Hungarian spellings should certainly be noted in the article. Croctotheface 17:51, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

I'm not thrilled with the quality of the references that have been added, partly for the reason that Duk mentions (hard to tell if they copied the spelling from Wikipedia), but also because I'm not sure the references are very authoritative on this question and there's also the possibility that the sources simply "Hungaricized" the name from English as the sources don't seem to explicitly state that Élő Árpád was his birth name. I did however find a possible reference that I think is more promising: NATIONAL GEOGRAPHIC MAGYARORSZÁG. Perhaps someone here who can read Hungarian could take a look at this to see if the reference should be added. It also looks like it might have some info for expansion of the article. Quale 23:10, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

I'm Hungarian and FYI the link mentioned is an online port of an originally print version biographical encyclopaedia of famous people published by the Hungarian state's local government of the county Arpad Elo (Élő Árpád) was born in. It got nothing to do with Wikipedia, in fact the collection of data for the book ended in 1997 and some of its sources reach back to the 1920s. The website itself is a Cultural Ministry sponsored project for porting the more important books of Hungary's national library (with 8 million items in its catalogue) to the online world. It is an as reliable source as it can get. The other source is a joint project of KFKI (Central Research Institute for Physics) and the Hungarian Academy of Sciences. Also a very reliable source Fblodilovics (talk) 13:47, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

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Simply being is a physicist is not sufficient enough to be included in wikiproject physics.

No hard feelings. Headbomb {— Write so you cannot be misunderstood.
— ταλκ / Wikiproject Physics: Projects of the Week 07:01, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

You seem testy about this issue. In any case, he is a physicist and well-known as such, therefore this page is relevant to WikiProject Physics per prevailing guidelines, and I have re-added this page to said project. No hard feelings.
2601:405:4400:9420:F12:889B:F5F8:8D40 (talk) 06:20, 27 December 2022 (UTC)
Retrieved from "https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Arpad_Elo/Archive_1&oldid=1213363106"