[WikiEN-l] Admin status: we are asking the wrong question

Wed May 7 20:08:01 UTC 2003

The Cunctator wrote:

>I don't see anything that's absurd. Jtdirl deleted the following text,
>which seems pretty defensible at first glance and certainly not
>"vandalism".
>
I too would consider the deletion to be perfectly defensible.  Deleting 
such POV text is far from "vandalism".

>Typically a communist state is characterized by grinding [[poverty]], a
>bloated [[bureaucracy]], diversion of resources into [[military]]
>assets, a general loss of [[morale]] by the general population, and
>[[political stability|instability]] marked by periodic [[rebellion]]s
>which are brutally repressed. A communist state is characterized by the
>sharp division of the population into two castes, party members and the
>rest of the population. A small group, the [[politbureau]], typically
>consisting of less than 10 people, sometimes only 1, within the party
>hold any real power or have access to accurate information. A large
>[[secret police]] apparatus closely monitors the population.
>[[Concentration camp]]s and other facilities are used to incarcerate
>those dissidents which are not liquidated. 
>
>There have been two major communist states, The [[Soviet Union]] and its
>satellites and the [[People's Republic of China]]. Minor states include
>[[Yugoslavia]], [[Cuba]], [[Viet Nam]] and [[North Korea]]. The pattern
>varies in each with those clinging most closely to communist ideals
>being most characteristically totalitarian, impoverished, militaristic,
>and static. Attempts to incorporate [[democracy|democratic]] principles
>as in the case of the Soviet Union under Gorbachev,
>[[socialism|socialist]] principles as in Yugoslavia,or
>[[capitalism|capitalistic]] techniques as in China result in some
>mitigation of the negative features of the communist state but sometimes
>result in dynamic situations which may undermine the control of the
>party over the state or even lead to its collapse.
>
The problem with this text is that it contains a wide range of 
unsubstantiated claims.  Any one of them could take a long article to 
discuss all by itself.  It appeals to the preconceptions of established 
propaganda.  The writing style of the propagandists is often such as to 
make the distinction difficult between attacking unsubstantiated 
comment, and defending the system that is being attacked.  I have no 
problem admitting that I am on the left of the political spectrum, but I 
at least like to believe that I can see the faults in the systems that I 
favour and the benefits of those I oppose..

Fred's first sentence alone contains five separate assertions.  It does 
not say what a communist state is, but basks in the weaselly passive, 
"is characterized by".  If I consider the United States in the light of 
those five criteria, I find that they can all be applied to varying 
extents.  Am I to conclude from that that the United States is a 
communist state?  If either the communist or non-communist state is to 
be characterized by "grinding poverty", are we to take that as meaning 
that this was the intent of either?  Grinding poverty was well 
established in West Bengal long before the democratic election of Jyoti 
Basu's Communist party in 1977, and it hasn't prevented that party from 
being re-elected to power in every election since.

My point here is not about defending communism, but about opposing 
Fred's attempt to wilfully mislead readers.

Ec