[WikiEN-l] Classification of China?

Sat Apr 26 01:24:20 UTC 2003

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Hell, '''Wikipedia''' is authoritarian under the Bauder definition!  One
person, Jimbo, has the power to issue edicts (and edits, for that
matter) binding upon all users of his system.  There is a hierarchical
(hierarchal?) structure of privileges, and official canon (NPOV), and if
you deviate from the canon, you are excommunicat- er, banned!

Stan Shebs wrote:
| You'll have to do better than that! - your description applies equally
| well to the United States government, and to both the Green Party
| and Libertarian Party.  And therein lies the problem with attempts
| to say a government is or is not authoritarian, communist, or
| whatever - those kinds of terms are editorial assessments of a
| pattern of objectively observed behavior.  Even if 99% of people
| believe the assessment, the only truly NPOV thing you can say is
| "99% of observers believe the government to be authoritarian".
|
| Stan
|
| Fred Bauder wrote:
|
|> No, the Roman Catholic church is authoritarian in different ways, for
|> example, one person, the Pope, has the power to issue edits binding
|> upon all
|> catholics. There is a hierarchal structure, an official canon, and
|> discipline applied to those within the hierachy who deviate from the
|> canon.
|> All goes to show that if you change the subject, you change the
|> question and
|> the answer.
|>
|> Fred
|>
|>
|>> From: Sean Barrett <sean at epoptic.org>
|>> Organization: Boskonia
|>> Reply-To: wikien-l at wikipedia.org
|>> Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 17:06:19 -0700
|>> To: wikien-l at wikipedia.org
|>> Subject: Re: [WikiEN-l] Classification of China?
|>>
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|>> And the Catholic Church (for another example you used of an present-day
|>> authoritarian organization) does any of these things?  I can (I have)
|>> written letters extremely critical of Cardinal Mahoney that were
|>> published -- without interference -- in the free press.  Should I fear
|>> the Spanish Inquisition?
|>>
|>> Methinks your definition of "authoritarian organization" is remarkably
|>> broad if it lumps the Catholic Church in with the Butchers of Beijing.
|>>
|>> It makes me wonder how fluid your definition of "truth" is.
|>>
|>>
|>>
|>> Fred Bauder wrote:
|>> | The criteria are control of the press, repression of political speech,
|>> | imprisonment of those who atempt to organize an opposing political
|>> party or
|>> | a union, etc.
|>> |
|>> | Fred
|>> |
|>> |
|>> |>From: Vicki Rosenzweig <vr at redbird.org>
|>> |>Reply-To: wikien-l at wikipedia.org
|>> |>Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 19:31:58 -0400
|>> |>To: wikien-l at wikipedia.org
|>> |>Subject: Re: [WikiEN-l] Classification of China?
|>> |>
|>> |>At 05:16 PM 4/25/03 -0600, Fred Bauder wrote:
|>> |>
|>> |>>I intend to speak truth. China (and the Catholic church, for another
|>> |>>example) are authoritarian. \ It is not merely a matter of the
|>> opinion of
|>> |>>vague critics. There are objective criteria which if met
|>> constitute an
|>> |>>authoritarian government.
|>> |>
|>> |>This concerns me, not because I disagree, but because I don't know
|>> |>what objective criteria Fred is using, and because almost anyone who
|>> |>promotes a point of view sincerely believes that he or she is speaking
|>> |>truth.
|>> |>
|>> |>The determination to speak truth, while admirable, is not the same as
|>> |>NPOV, which is our policy.
|>> |>
|>> |>
|>> |>
|>> |>>Fred
|>> |>>
|>> |>>
|>> |>>>From: Daniel Ehrenberg <littledanehren at yahoo.com>
|>> |>>>Reply-To: wikien-l at wikipedia.org
|>> |>>>Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 09:32:01 -0700 (PDT)
|>> |>>>To: wikien-l at wikipedia.org
|>> |>>>Subject: Re: [WikiEN-l] Classification of China?
|>> |>>>
|>> |>>>You can't just say "China is an evil totalitarian
|>> |>>>country" (I know that's not what you said) or even
|>> |>>>"China is a controlling country" because that's an
|>> |>>>opinion, not a fact. The communist party in China
|>> |>>>might think "We're not controlling or authoritarian,
|>> |>>>we just want the best for our citizens", which makes
|>> |>>>the comment POV.  You could say (in a later
|>> |>>>paragraph), "China is critisized for being
|>> |>>>[[authoritarianism and
|>> |>>>totalitarianism|authoritarianist]].
|>> |>>>
|>> |>>>--- Fred Bauder <fredbaud at ctelco.net> wrote:
|>> |>>>
|>> |>>>
|>> |>>>>I stirred up this hornet's nest  by inserting a link
|>> |>>>>to [[authoritarianism
|>> |>>>>and totalitarianism|authoritarian]] into the first
|>> |>>>>paragraph of the article.
|>> |>>>>I think this is a fair characterization of the
|>> |>>>>regime (regardless of what
|>> |>>>>ever other adjective might describe it).
|>> |>
|>> |>--
|>> |>Vicki Rosenzweig
|>> |>vr at redbird.org
|>> |>http://www.redbird.org
|>> |>
|>> |>_______________________________________________
|>> |>WikiEN-l mailing list
|>> |>WikiEN-l at wikipedia.org
|>> |>http://www.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
|>> |
|>> |
|>> | _______________________________________________
|>> | WikiEN-l mailing list
|>> | WikiEN-l at wikipedia.org
|>> | http://www.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
|>>
|>>
|>> - --
|>> ~ Sean Barrett     | John and Mary had never met. They were like
|>> ~ sean at epoptic.com | two hummingbirds who had also never met.
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- --
~ Sean Barrett     | John and Mary had never met. They were like
~ sean at epoptic.com | two hummingbirds who had also never met.
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