Talk:Apostles in the New Testament/Archive 1

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Archive 1 Archive 2

Identification of Judas as Thomas in the Gospel of John

Please cite chapter and verse in the Gospel of John where Thomas is called Judas. And in which edition of the Bible you found it. 83.227.152.132 17:28, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

I guess the passage here about Thomas on Wikipedia is written confusingly: "Thomas (identified as also being called Judas and Didymus (John 20:24))". I didn't check John 20:24. This sentence should be changed if Thomas is not called Judas in John 20:24.Scottandrewhutchins 17:38, 19 August 2006 (UTC)
Sorry for being inconsistent. I don't understand how I missed that line, I should have corrected that one too. But now I see 75.15.192.65 has fixed it. Thanks for your vigilance anyway. 83.227.152.132 19:41, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

DESCRIPTION

what really is the definition of the word apostle —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 72.74.96.100 (talk) 22:43, 30 January 2007 (UTC).

The Andronicus and Junia section of Twelve Apostles

The comments about Junia seem slanted heavily toward the belief that Junia was male and, in any event, not really an apostle. The consensus of recent scholarship, I believe, is that Junia was almost certainly female and, though the grammatical construction is ambiguous, very possibly an apostle. That was the view of John Chrysostom quite some time ago. Jim Lacey 19:20, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

I've rewritten the section so it's (hopefully) NPOV, pointing to the Junia article if people want to read a fuller discussion. Rocksong 00:01, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

Fishers of Men

A patchwork of erroneous phrases pretends to be a paragraph; citation of John 21 does not support statement; "where Christ was ironically already feasting!" Writer supposes the easier task of dragging a net to shore, rather than the more difficult task of lifting a net into a boat, prooves papal infallibility.

The biblical references to "The Twelve" as "fishers of men", especially the image of Peter's sole role of pulling the net full of "153 large fish" onto the shore (where Christ was ironically already feasting! John 21) without tearing the net, when all the apostles present couldn't lift the net into the boat just moments earlier, portray and confirm, among faithful Catholics, the Church's teaching on "papal infallibility" - that Christ's "one, holy, catholic, and apostolic" Church is divinely guided and protected from teaching error, so that all who desire to know his teachings (including His written, inspired word, the bible, but not exclusively, as in the Protestant belief in "Sola Scriptura", the bible alone) may have that opportunity.

In other words: "biblical references to "fishers of men" confirm the Church's teaching on "papal infallibility" so all who desire to know have opportunity." Does this need fixing? Robert D. 69.153.169.63 08:07, 2 December 2007 (UTC)


James The Just

In the Section "The Twelve Apostles," there are two apostles listed as being named James the Just. I don't know if that is accurate, or if not, which one should be "James the Just" rather than simply "James". Could someone with more knowledge take a look at this please? Nickers (talk) 04:12, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

Someone made a mistake. James, son of Alphaeus is the only one who might be James the Just. But James, son of Zebedee is definitely a different James. I've fixed it now. Peter Ballard (talk) 04:58, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

Cleanup

This page is becoming cluttered - it is difficult to sort through all the information, as it is presented. The article needs cleanup. This will be quite a task, based on referencing and POV issues. A few points to keep in mind: 1) Clarify which sect/religion is being described (in relation to the Apostles). 2) Try to put information in the appropriate section (it may be necessary to create sections based on the Apostles' role in various sects/religions). 3) Avoid inserting opinions; use citations (reputable sources) as much as possible, but not excessively. 4) Avoid using exclamation points. Fuzzform (talk) 21:00, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

Also, use {{bibleverse||BookName|v.:vv.}} (e.g. {{bibleverse||Matthew|10:1-6}} ) for all Bible citations. That seems to be the standard citation format for this article. Fuzzform (talk) 21:11, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

what was their job

before they joined the club? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.16.123.194 (talk) 18:41, 12 June 2008 (UTC)

Profetions

John,Andrew,James were fishermen. Mathew was a tax collector. Simon the Zelot was a political activist, Judas Iscariot a banker the others unknown. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.233.55.36 (talk) 21:57, 25 September 2008 (UTC)

Title and Cleanup

The title of this page Twelve Apostles would lead the naive reader to expect something about twelve people; and then the sophisticated reader would know that both Judas Iscariot and Matthias would be discussed. Why then a discussion of Paul, and a tiny discussion of Barnabas, and so forth? Ah! There is no page on apostles in general. Ah! So I propose that this page be retitled accordingly, and then that it would naturally have a different structure, which could help some of the clutter in the cleanup request noted juts above. Tb (talk) 19:21, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

I agree a rename is required. But Apostle already exists as a disambiguation page. So what should we use? Christian Apostles? Apostles (Christian)? Apostles (New Testament)? Peter Ballard (talk) 23:23, 29 December 2008 (UTC)
Changed it to Apostle (Christian) and started working on the lead. Page needs more restructuring, and work. Leadwind (talk) 19:57, 15 January 2009 (UTC)
Good move. A bit more work is required now, but it's a good step forward. Peter Ballard (talk) 23:26, 15 January 2009 (UTC)

Why does this article (and some others like it) argue from completely within the Christian tradition?

This article, and others like it, seem to take as given the traditional Christian interpretation as being historical fact. In essence, it comes off as little more than a recapitulation of the relevant parts of the Christian New Testament. There is no discussion in the article of whether any or all of these people ever really existed, and what evidence there is for their existence. This may be fine for Christians reading the article, but for the rest of us, self referential referral to the Bible as sufficient evidence for the truth of a postulation is not enough to make that postulation acceptable. Is there any evidence outside of Christian scripture that any of these people ever existed, and if so, if any of the acts traditionally attributed to them ever took place? And whether there is or not, the article should have a section discussing this. Otherwise, the article is not objective or illuminating of fact, the way an encyclopedia article should be — every page in Wikipedia bears the admonition “Encyclopedic content must be verifiable”. Where is the verifiability from outside sources for this article, which presumes factuality? What you have here now is hagiography; the perpetuation of a myth by and for believers of the same. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.69.160.130 (talk) 04:08, 24 January 2009 (UTC)

Some articles do, some don't. But this one doesn't, I agree. It needs scholarly, non-Biblical sources. Peter Ballard (talk) 06:46, 24 January 2009 (UTC)
I agree as well and am not signing my comment out of concern for attacks. A lot of mainstream Christian scholars do not believe, for example, that the epistles of "Paul" were the letters of the Apostle Paul. Different person, same name. Wikipedia is supposed to be scholarly, and to leave out a discussion of these issues serves neither Wikipedia nor Christianity but only hagiography. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.32.29.90 (talk) 19:50, 28 May 2009 (UTC)

Andronicus and Junia bias

The section of Andronicus and Junia seems very biased. "Of note among the apostles" could mean "noteworthy to the apostles" or "Noteworthy apostle". And if I'm not mistaken, the greek word ιουνιαν is masculine. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.227.124.235 (talk) 20:20, 14 December 2009 (UTC)

Jewish converts to Christianity

There is insufficient evidence to say that all twelve apostles were "Jewish converts to Christianity", which must imply some kind of renunciation of Judaism (e.g. Paul's declaration that circumcision was unnecessary). I've removed the article from that category. Grover cleveland 07:06, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

They were all Jews. They all became Christians. Do you mean that some of them could have been agnostics and/or not followers of Judaism? rossnixon 10:40, 18 August 2006 (UTC)
What does "became Christians" mean, though? Not just "followed Jesus". The word "Christian" doesn't appear anywhere in the Gospels, and is first found in Acts 11:26 in the context of Paul's followers in Antioch and the circumcision controversy. The word "convert" surely implies some kind of rejection of Judaism as well as an acceptance of Christianity. There's no evidence that any of the twelve apostles other than Peter approved of the rejection of the traditional requirements of Judaism (circumcision, food laws) described in Acts 11. 14:22, 18 August 2006 (UTC)
Sure there is. There's the Council of Jerusalem recorded in Acts 15, which had the agreement of "the apostles and elders, with the whole church" in verse 22. There's also the Didache, or "Teaching of the Twelve", in which circumcision is conspicuous by its absence. This article should certainly belong in the 'Jewish converts to Christianity' category. Wesley 17:11, 18 August 2006 (UTC)
Has there been any discussion on the background of Simon the Canaanite? If he truly was a canaanite, a descendant of Ham, does that mean he was probably not Jewish, who are descendants of Shem? Carter.pond 15:30, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

Jewish converts to Christianity were not renouncing Judaism; in its truest sense Christianity is a completion of Judaism, because it teaches the coming of the Messiah, whereas in Christianity, the Messiah (Jesus) has already come. However, some Jews even today reject that Jesus was the Messiah, believing that the Messiah will still come. Some of the New Testament Jewish Christians had accepted Christianity, but were still holding to practices of Judaism, which in itself is not wrong, but some of these practices were in fact contradictory to Christianity. One example is Ephesians 2, where Paul writes that Christian salvation comes "by grace you have seen through faith" (verse 8) "not by works" (verse 9) which in reference to the principle of Judaism that each sin must be atoned for. Christians believe that once you accept Jesus as your Savior, all sins are atoned, by Jesus' sacrifice, where Jews believe they must offer continual sacrifices for every sin they commit. Gaburearu (talk) 19:25, 31 January 2010 (UTC)

The Beloved Apostle

Why are references to Mary Magdalene constantly removed from the Beloved disciple paragraph? Her being an apostle did not originate with Dan Brown.--Tomtom9041 18:44, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

Because the Beloved Disciple talks to Mary Magdalene in John 20. So they can't be the same person. You have to also note the Jewish traditions regarding the role of women. The disciples were surprised when Jesus talked to a woman who was not a relative (Samaritan woman at the well). rossnixon 10:21, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

You are incorrect, read variuos versions in various bibles and none stated what you say. Which version are you using? 

John 20:8 says Then the other disciple, who went to the tomb first, also went inside,and then he saw and believed.

Other does not translate into "beloved" does it?--Tomtom9041 14:45, 22 August 2006 (UTC) i used KJV,NKJV and NAB. et al --Tomtom9041 14:47, 22 August 2006 (UTC) Italics NKJV--Tomtom9041 14:47, 22 August 2006 (UTC) AND 

John 20:1 state: Now on the first day of the week Mary Magdalene went to the tomb early.

and also 

John 20:2 states:Then she ran away and came to Simon Peter and to the other disciple whom Jesus loved...

does this not imply two seperate people?--Tomtom9041 14:51, 22 August 2006 (UTC) seems to be open to interpretation doesn't it--Tomtom9041 14:53, 22 August 2006 (UTC)Or do they contradict each other?--Tomtom9041 15:29, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

In John 20:2, surely "the other disciple whom Jesus loved" would be the "beloved disciple", so here we clearly see Mary coming to this disciple and talking to him. In the next several verses, it's reasonable to assume that "the other disciple" refers to the same "other disciple whom Jesus loved" in verse 2. In verse 8, the other disciple is referred to as "he" indicating it's a man not a woman. And in verse 11, Peter and the other disciple have left, but Mary is still there. This isn't any feat of theological gymnastics, it's just reading the story at the simple level of a narrative to reasonably identify the characters. Wesley 16:55, 23 August 2006 (UTC)

I should add, regarding Mary Magdalene's being an apostle, you are correct that that idea did not originate with Dan Brown. The Church has always called her an "apostle to the apostles," chiefly because of this passage in which she proclaims to the apostles the good news of Jesus' resurrection, and because of the role she later played in proclaiming the Gospel. But being an apostle and being the specific "beloved apostle" in the gospel of John are not the same thing. Wesley 16:57, 23 August 2006 (UTC)

Reasonable to whom, pre-established traditions? Why is that a reasonable "assumption"? The way it is reason would seem to indicate two or more. Mary Magdalene is still believed by some to have been an apostle and also to be the "beloved" apostle. See Authorship of Johannine works.--68.32.11.74 17:06, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

Mary Magdalene is presumed to be an apostle by several groups, and don't many Christians in Europe, esp France believe, the Charttrists etc.--Tomtom 00:28, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

Pardon my possible ignorance of other Christian traditions, but what is a section on the beloved disciple doing in this article at all? He is never called an apostle, is he? Or are there traditions that call any gospel disciple an apostle? Rocksong 12:40, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
This article needs to establish how (and by who) the beloved disciple is considered an apostle. Otherwise I propose deleting that section. Peter Ballard 01:59, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

{John 19:26 When Jesus therefore saw His mother, and the disciple whom He loved standing by, He said to His mother, "Woman, behold your son!" 27 Then He said to the disciple, "Behold your mother!" And from that hour that disciple took her to his own home.} Jesus refers to the "beloved disciple" as "son" and the author refers to the "beloved disciple" as he, both terms that clearly indicate it was a man, not a woman. Many believe "the disciple whom Jesus loved" to be John, the disciple, who was also an apostle and the brother of Jesus (Matthew 17:1) (See also John Darby's Synopsis of the New Testament) Gaburearu (talk) 19:26, 31 January 2010 (UTC)

Reference to twelve disciples in John 20:24

I am unfamiliar with wikipedia editing, but there are actually two places in John's gospel where he mentions 12 disciples. In addition to 6:67-71, there is 20:24. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.18.3.168 (talk) 23:58, 27 February 2010 (UTC)

Move discussion in progress

There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:Apostle (Christian) which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. —RM bot 12:45, 18 April 2010 (UTC)

Requested move

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: No consensus, pages not moved  Ronhjones  (Talk) 21:54, 25 April 2010 (UTC)


Apostle → Apostle (disambiguation) — Should we treat Christian Apostle as the primary meaning of Apostle? PatGallacher (talk) 16:42, 17 April 2010 (UTC)

  • Apostle (Christian) → Apostle
  • Support It was not me who raised this issue initially, I was trying to sort out another person's confused move request. Initially I was cautious because of the risks of systemic bias in favour of mainstream Christianity. However looking at the Apostle article, this does look like the primary meaning, the others are rather obscure. PatGallacher (talk) 17:15, 17 April 2010 (UTC)
  • Comment Apostle is missing the move banner. 70.29.208.247 (talk) 05:14, 18 April 2010 (UTC)
  • Oppose. I remain unconvinced that moving the dab page is the wisest move. There is even more then one Christian use (Apostle (Latter Day Saints)). Vegaswikian (talk) 20:50, 25 April 2010 (UTC)
    • Surely the Latter Day Saints are a relatively small fringe group compared to mainstream Christianity. PatGallacher (talk) 21:01, 25 April 2010 (UTC)
  • Oppose. Given the wide range of meanings, I think Apostle is probably best left as the disambiguation page. I think it's a fairly close call, but I'm not really convinced (but then again there a strong case hasn't really been presented here for the move). Good Ol’factory (talk) 21:47, 25 April 2010 (UTC)
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Lead has too much cruft

A lot of stuff has been added recently to the lead, but it is out of place there. It is detail which belongs only in the body of the article, if at all. Peter Ballard (talk) 11:31, 8 February 2009 (UTC)

I've realised the problem: the lead is meant to be a summary of the contents of the article. Instead it is a mini-article, quite different in content to the main article. And also laregly unreferenced. I intend to move most of the recent additions out of the lead and into the main body of the article. Peter Ballard (talk) 22:59, 8 February 2009 (UTC)

Lots of leads in WP are too thin, some merely definitions of the topic. Per WP:LEAD, a lead should be not a definition but a summary of the topic. It should be so complete that it is capable of standing alone as a concise summary. Ideally, the lead should summarize the article itself, but when the article itself is lacking, it's more important that the lead summarize the topic well than match the article. This topic is big enough that it deserves 4 paragraphs. I'd ask you to develop the article, expanding on information in the lead, but please don't reduce the amount of information in the lead. Leadwind (talk) 02:41, 9 February 2009 (UTC)
My first course of action with this article would be to scour out the unreferenced interpretation. The lead doesn't have much for references, but it's mostly the basics without interpretation. The body, however, has lots of material on interpretation of the apostle concept without the necessary citation. Once, this amateur material is cleared, it would be easier to improve the article, especially expanding on information in the lead. Leadwind (talk) 02:47, 9 February 2009 (UTC)
The new material in the lead is also unreferenced, which leads to a number of problems: some of it is contentious (major missionaries might be apostles by some Christians, but not by all), and on at least one count it's wrong (Paul never refers to "the eleven".) I'm all for fixing the article, but doing it via the lead is the wrong way to go, especially when it's unreferenced. Peter Ballard (talk) 03:06, 9 February 2009 (UTC)
I tried to improve the lead but there is still a way to go! - Ret.Prof (talk) 21:46, 5 September 2010 (UTC)

Would references to mnemonics for the 12 be relevant?

Because my mother, as a Catholic schoolgirl was taught the mnemonic: "BAPTISM" to remember them. B-- Bartholomew, A-- Andrew P-- Peter and Philip T-- Thomas and Thaddeus I-- (Because "I" was once used in place of "J") James, John, James and Judas S-- Simon (NOT Simon Peter) M-- Matthew, and later Matthias Lilly (talk) 20:44, 24 March 2011 (UTC)

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Impenetrable Christianity entries

From a STRICTLY ENCYCLOPEDIC viewpoint, almost every Wikipedia article on Christianity is difficult to understand. I'm not saying that whoever is writing them doesn't have 1 or 2 college degrees, I'm just having a hard time learning anything. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.102.92.235 (talk) 04:00, 20 March 2012 (UTC)

List of Apostles

We could use a separate page for that, with more than just the canonical Roman Catholic list. As mentioned above, calling people like Dawkins "apostle to the atheists" is cheeky and inappropriate for the topic here (although it might be cited and mentioned on his page), but we should have something that lists those who've traditionally held the epithet in a Christian context (Patrick to the Irish, yes, but also James Gilmour to the Mongols and David Rice to Kentucky). — LlywelynII 02:31, 6 August 2013 (UTC)

Deaths of Judas

I see that two are listed, but what of the accounts that Judas was stoned by the other apostles and even potentially was crucified in place of Jesus?68.39.168.9 (talk) 20:34, 18 June 2014 (UTC)

Proposal: Make "Mormon Apostles" its own entry, with a link from here. At some point, it deserves its own entry, and including all the material about Mormon apostles here would make the entry a mess. COGDEN Nov 10, 2003.

Sounds fine to me. Wesley 16:52, 10 Nov 2003 (UTC)
That article should be titled Apostle (Mormonism). —B 21:23, Nov 10, 2003 (UTC)
Done. Moved material to Apostle (Mormonism). COGDEN

Any mention that the apostles might have been between 7 to 13 depending on the books ? PomPom

Jesus's "Profession"

Using Jesus's status as "tekton," a word used at the time to connote a social status, is not a good way to establish his trade. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 172.250.55.190 (talk) 17:13, 21 October 2014 (UTC)

Bart Erhman says that tekton could mean carpenter, but more generally meant construction worker (it meant lower-class and builder, kind of day labor). Tgeorgescu (talk) 21:22, 21 October 2014 (UTC)
See e.g. [1]. Tgeorgescu (talk) 21:24, 21 October 2014 (UTC)

The twelve and no women

Why does this section exist? It does not seem to serve an purpose other than incite flaming by feminists or anti-feminists. It could easily be a sentence on the opening paragraph if one feels that this information needs to be included (in case any one wonders/assumes there were female apostles).

I tried removing the section and put the following as the reason:

"/* The twelve and no women */ Irrelevant to entire article since there is no mention or insinuation that any apostles were female, and it seems to be put on here to incite flaming.

I later got some message from a 17 year old from Australia informing me that they edited my changes and that I needed to write something on their Talk Page if I had any questions or wanted to edit it again. Along with the message there was "encouragement" to sign up and make a username, otherwise my IP might get banned if I didn't. I'm fairly new to editing Wikipedia and I didn't know pages/articles had "owners" or "guardians," or why I must discuss an edit on a user's page when I thought the idea of Wikipedia was that anyone could edit it, and discuss it publicly on the Article's Talk page if there is a disagreement.

I was just here trying to figure out the difference between Apostles and Ministers (Since I'm not Christian) and that section just jumps out and seems so out of place. In conclusion thanks for reading and taking into consideration my edit. For the time being I won't edit it again since I don't want some ban over a misunderstanding. 66.214.121.8 (talk) 09:18, 20 February 2014 (UTC)

It (the lack of women or equal-footing for female biblical/early Christian figures) is a valid point to be made, it just needs to be incorporated better. I'll be the first to say "this article needs to be intensively rewritten". I've been thinking about a large-scale revision of this article, and in thinking about it there is a role for a gender narrative and analysis--and while this isn't the best way to approach it, some mention that the convention idea of the apostles are the male followers of Christ vs. the fact that there were women prominent in the early church and among the Lord's followers outght to be examined. I see that you're editing as an anonymous IP user, and a lot of editors view many questionable unexplained actions by anonymous IPs as potential vandalism--so without a username, that is probably the reason for the other user's reaction reinserting the section, encouraging you to sign up for an account, and the fair warning. I'd encourage you also to consider signing up for an account, just to avoid such headaches and practicality: other editors tend to respect editors contributing through an accounts and disrespect IP users. Also, it's never good form to just blank sections without discussing them first on an article's talk page--an area where a mere edit summary often isn't enough.--ColonelHenry (talk) 15:35, 20 February 2014 (UTC)
I have to agree with the IP above. Although this section has been in the article for quite sometime (after looking at the History), I too wonder why its here. This page doesn't seem like the place to argue that Jesus was sexist - which seems to be the sole intent of the text. There were also no female kings, emperors, governers, princes, senators, etc at this time in history. Looks like "everyone" was sexist so what's the point - we just looking for a reason to bash Jesus...? Ckruschke (talk) 20:37, 21 February 2014 (UTC)Ckruschke
As a casual reader of the article this point jumped out at me as out of place--it appears to be a textbook case of special pleading. If it is to be included then it probably should be under a special heading that allows for contextualizing the reason for the recording only male apostles. AS it stands the entry comes across as an attack on Jesus and therefore is not relevant to the article.Aforrestpierce (talk) 16:41, 11 January 2015 (UTC)

Requested move 28 June 2016

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: Withdrawn by nominator, new RM opened below. Jujutsuan (Please notify with {{re}} talk | contribs) 00:52, 29 June 2016 (UTC)

(non-admin closure)

– Previous discussion of this never gained consensus. Looking at the current Apostle article, it seems clear that the WP:PRIMARYUSAGE is the Christian one. Islamic "apostles" are generally called "prophets", "messengers", or "as-sahabah". And clearly neither the LDS nor the Bahai Faith usages is the WP:PRIMARYUSAGE. (Please note especially PatGallacher's vote from the previous RM.) Those are clearly WP:SS of their main articles; no content would really be lost by making "Apostle" into a disambig page; we can check to make sure the content is in the summarized articles before making the change. Jujutsuan (Please notify with {{re}} | talk | contribs) 12:31, 28 June 2016 (UTC)

  • Oppose As Apostle is not a disambiguation page we cannot move it, this should possible be a snow oppose, see WP:SNOW. PatGallacher (talk) 17:23, 28 June 2016 (UTC)
Then how about moving it to Apostle (term) or something similar? Jujutsuan (Please notify with {{re}} talk | contribs) 23:33, 28 June 2016 (UTC)
Possibly, but that would require a different move request. PatGallacher (talk) 00:18, 29 June 2016 (UTC)
The LDS movement is a minority. A notable one, but not the WP:PRIMARYUSAGE. Jujutsuan (Please notify with {{re}} talk | contribs) 23:33, 28 June 2016 (UTC)
  • Withdrawn by nominator due to preexistence of disambiguation page. Opening new RM below. Jujutsuan (Please notify with {{re}} talk | contribs) 00:48, 29 June 2016 (UTC)
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Requested move 29 June 2016

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: no consensus. (non-admin closure) Eventhorizon51 (talk) 12:47, 14 July 2016 (UTC)

− See previous RM. Mainstream Christian meaning is the WP:PRIMARYUSAGE of this term. Other usages, though notable, are minority views and certainly not primary. Islamic "apostles" are generally called "prophets", "messengers", or "as-sahabah". And clearly neither the LDS nor the Bahai Faith usages is the WP:PRIMARYUSAGE. Jujutsuan (Please notify with {{re}} talk | contribs) 00:48, 29 June 2016 (UTC) --Relisting. Omni Flames (talk) 01:59, 7 July 2016 (UTC)

  • Support - I support this move per WP:PRIMARYUSAGE. Cheers, Comatmebro User talk:Comatmebro 11:27, 29 June 2016 (UTC)
  • Oppose The very fact that we have a general article on Apostle suggests that this is not a clear-cut matter, I have never seen any other issue tackled this way on Wikipedia, an article move to "(term)" because of a supposed primary meaning. PatGallacher (talk) 13:50, 1 July 2016 (UTC)
  • Oppose – The term "Apostle", etymologically from Greek ἀπόστολος "one being sent away", was chosen in the New Testament to describe the disciples of Jesus but it also kept its generic meaning, which can be picked by followers of any charismatic leader. Just as a very popular brand name switches from being considered a proper name to a generic term (e.g. aspirin or googling, see Generic trademark), there is no need for an article about the term itself; the main article simply talks about the subject being named by the term. — JFG talk 11:46, 7 July 2016 (UTC)
  • Oppose per the above.  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼  20:53, 11 July 2016 (UTC)
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.


Claim in lead paragraph

The following claim is made in the lead paragraph: "The word disciple is sometimes used interchangeably with apostle; for instance, the Gospel of John makes no distinction between the two terms"

This may be misleading and in any case certainly needs a reference. I don't believe the Gospel of John even uses the term disciple, so this would be an argument from silence. 75.0.10.69 (talk) 20:16, 8 October 2016 (UTC)

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Unauthorised move

This page appears to have been moved against consensus, see above. Surely this should be reversed ASAP. PatGallacher (talk) 13:54, 19 January 2017 (UTC)

@PatGallacher: As I stated in my move summary apostles (plural) has led to this content for all but a very short stint since its creation in 2002. The plural title was not mentioned in any of the move discussions and the bold reiteration is plural in the first sentence of the lead. My bold move was basically procedural, as disambiguation was unnecessary with that pointing here. I came across this when linking to apostles. I originally considered taking it to redirects for discussion, but decided to go this road thinking it may have been a different capitalization situation. A request can be made to revert the move at WP:RM/TR, or posted here and I'll implement it later this evening if no one else has, if desired. Best Regards, — Godsy (TALKCONT) 15:17, 19 January 2017 (UTC)

Opening heading

I thought Apostle was a general name for someone who was choosen by a god, to represent the god in all forms. I do not think it applies only to the Christian Mythos. --Thapthim

Was not Judea somewhat of an ethnic melting pot, situated between Egypt, Syria, Persia, Arabia, Turkey, etc., (to identify them generically) and greatly influenced by Greece, while under Roman control for a few centuries? This would suggest some mixed cultural and ethnic backgrounds for the general population during this period. Would not the early Christian reflect this mix, as this was a movement "of the people". - I offer this comment to provide some insight into those who will ultimately correct and improve this entry. (---) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.246.66.75 (talk) 14:35, 18 March 2011 (UTC)

This message was originally posted at Talk:Apostle. Graham87 08:33, 3 May 2011 (UTC)

Removed from the article:

Some people feel Paul was the apostle chosen by God to replace him.

If you're going to make that claim, then go into a little more detail about why.

I think the way the attitude of the apostles towards Jews link is done is really misleading and dishonest (I don't necessarily disgree with the sentiment, BTW). Whoever put it in should think of a more ethical way of doing it and should be ashamed of himself (or herself). JHK

I didn't put it in, but I've tried to rephrase it to be less misleading. I personally consider the charge to be ridiculous when you consider that all the Apostles were Jews, as well as most of the initial converts to Christianity. Right or wrong, they thought that Christianity was the fulfillment of Jewish belief and prophecies, and didn't think they were replacing Judaism with a completely foreign religion. --Wesley
Thanks!

According to the article:

"Judas Iscariot was one of the twelve disciples, but was never an apostle."

According to the Bible (Matthew 10:2-4):

"Now the names of the twelve apostles are these: The first, Simon, who is called Peter, and Andrew his brother; and James the son of Zebedee, and John his brother; Philip and Bartholomew; Thomas and Matthew the tax collector; James the son of Alphaeus, and Thaddaeus; Simon the Zealot, and Judas Iscariot, the one who betrayed Him."

Slight discrepency? Bagpuss 19:26 Apr 24, 2003 (UTC)

You're quite correct. I think at the time I was thinking that they weren't called apostles until after Christ's resurrection, and before that they were disciples, but clearly I was wrong. The Seventy he sent out during his earthly ministry are probably also called apostles. Thanks for the catch. Wesley 02:56 Apr 26, 2003 (UTC)
Also keep in mind that Judas was more likely than not slandered prior to the writing of the bible. He was a "traitor", so why list him as an Apostle?68.39.168.9 (talk) 20:34, 18 June 2014 (UTC)


Wesley writes, "I was thinking that they weren't called apostles until after Christ's resurrection, and before that they were disciples."

That's what I was taught as a child.  I never really looked into it, but I thought that the story went that there were twelve disciples who followed Jesus around and learned from him during his life, and twelve apostles who went out and preached the message of Christianity following his death, and that these latter twelve were not necessarily the same twelve men as the former twelve.  allixpeeke (talk) 21:58, 14 February 2017 (UTC)

Suggesting deleting

"A number of successful pioneering missionaries are known as Apostles. In this sense, in the traditional list below, the apostle first brought Christianity (or Arianism in the case of Ulfilas and the Goths) to a land. Or it may apply to the truly influential Christianizer, such as Patrick's mission to Ireland, where a few struggling Christian communities did already exist. The reader will soon think of more of the culture heroes." I don't really understand what the purpose of the sentence is. Whatever it is supposed to mean, the tone is also all wrong. The section and paragraph work without it. Suggesting deleting that sentance.—Preceding unsigned comment added by Flambergius (talk • contribs) 08:43, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

In 'The Twelve Apostles', it is stated that the Gospel of John does not mention the number of Apostles. However, my translation, in John6:67, says, 'Then Jesus said to the Twelve...'. I do not like to edit the article because of my inferior knowledge, though I think that if it is the case that John does support the idea of Twelve Apostles, then the article should be edited. Does anybody have any information on this point?

That could just mean "Jesus said to the twelve guys that happened to be following him on tuesday, pretty much what he had said to the fourteen guys that were following him on monday". The key thing is that John doesnt appear to state Apostles=Twelve anywhere, or make any statement where this is a concrete requirement (e.g. "twelve houses, one for each apostle" - madeupexamples.com). Clinkophonist 23:55, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

The terms "The Twelve" and Apostles are not interchangeable, neither are the terms "disciple" and "apostle." According to Orthodox Christianity, the term "disciple" simply means follower, therefore the "Disciples" is used in reference to the original 12. The term "apostle" however is used in reference to a disciple of Christ (not just the 12) that had also see Christ after His resurrection. Therefore, Judas Iscariot was NOT an apostle, although he was a disciple, and was replaced by Matthias, who was an apostle. There were also apostles outside the 12, the most popular being the Apostle Paul.Gaburearu (talk) 19:25, 31 January 2010 (UTC)

I never did any research of my own, but when I was a child, I was taught that there were twelve disciples who followed Jesus around and learned from him during his life, and twelve apostles who went out and preached the message of Christianity following his death, and that these latter twelve were not necessarily the same twelve men as the former twelve.  allixpeeke (talk) 21:58, 14 February 2017 (UTC)

Disciples?

What's going on here? Since when are the Disciples the same as the Apostles? Is that the Protestant view? ♆ CUSH ♆ 21:32, 4 June 2012 (UTC)

What text are you looking at/commenting on? Ckruschke (talk) 15:37, 6 June 2012 (UTC)Ckruschke
I'm not well-versed in the subject, but aren't the Apostles the twelve chief followers of Jesus and the disciples the many other followers? (seventy or so specific as of Luke 10:1, but also potentially many others not mentioned)
Though looking at the definition in dictionaries it does have both Apostles and Disciples being used to refer to either. Peter Deer (talk) 17:19, 6 June 2012 (UTC)
A disciple is not necessarily an apostle, but the twelve apostles were still disciples. Matthew and Mark only use the word "apostles" once. Luke uses the term widely, especially in the Acts of the Apostles.
FWIW —Telpardec  TALK  05:49, 8 June 2012 (UTC)
Paul is no disciple, but he is an apostle. Judas is no apostle, but he is a disciple. The disciples are the 12 followers of Jesus during his alleged lifetime. Apostles (=messengers) are those who are sent out to the world (on Pentecost), the 12 most prominent of which are "The Twelve Apostles" of church tradition. I don't understand the complete mix-up in this article. ♆ CUSH ♆ 20:23, 10 June 2012 (UTC)
@CUSH - I agree that the article is mixed up. Please point to the particular paragraphs or sections that you are referring to. Saul of Tarsus was certainly a disciple, and it was not until he was brought to Antioch that the disciples were first called Christians. Paul the apostle was still a disciple after his name changed to Paul when he began to manifest the signs of an apostle. Disciples are learners. To what "Judas" do you refer? There were 2 apostles by that name, Judas Iscariot, who lost his apostleship when he betrayed Jesus; and the Judas that John called "not Iscariot" in John 14:22.
@ALL - All who follow and believe in Jesus are disciples. "Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed; And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free." (John 8:31,32) Apostles are those that are specially sent forth, including Jesus, who is called "the Apostle and High Priest of our profession" (in Hebrews 3:1). Note that Jesus was sent before the others: "Then said Jesus to them again, Peace be unto you: as my Father hath sent me, even so send I you." (John 20:21)
An interesting side note, if you start the count of the apostles with Jesus first, and Peter second, and so on, Judas Iscariot, (whose name is spelled with 13 letters,) is the 13th apostle. Matthias, who replaced him is the 14th to be numbered with the apostles, as one of "the twelve". (Acts 6:2) And in Acts 14:14 we see "...the apostles, Barnabas and Paul..." as the 15th and 16th, respectively. There are no others expressively named apostles.
FWIW —Telpardec  TALK  02:28, 12 June 2012 (UTC)
Yes, yes, all Christians are disciples and the church is the congregation, not the building, and the Anglicans are both the catholic and the orthodox faith, &c. &c. &c. There are many who say or believe these things, but they're still simply not what the words mean outside evangelical contexts. The Disciples (ideally with a capital D) were the immediate students (which is all "disciple" literally means) of Jesus. — LlywelynII 02:31, 6 August 2013 (UTC)
Cush,

Back when I was a child, that is what I was also taught.  I never really looked into it, but I thought that the story went that there were twelve disciples who followed Jesus around and learned from him during his life, and twelve apostles who went out and preached the message of Christianity following his death, and that these latter twelve were not necessarily the same twelve men as the former twelve.  allixpeeke (talk) 21:58, 14 February 2017 (UTC)

Follower of Jesus

I miss the term "follower" in this lemma, as well, I miss the link to Apostle from the lemma "follower". — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A01:C22:B414:EE00:9C2A:DEEB:C269:CDD (talk) 18:45, 30 March 2017 (UTC)

Gospels were not written by apostles

The majority view of Bible scholars is that the NT gospels were not written by apostles. The view that two of them were written by apostles is WP:FRINGE. Tgeorgescu (talk) 22:14, 24 June 2017 (UTC)

The introduction to this mainstream view is at Video on YouTube. Tgeorgescu (talk) 22:17, 24 June 2017 (UTC)

Aramaic, Hebrew, etc names

from my user chat:

"STOP making stuff up." What are you writing about?!? My only mistake is that I didn't put reference. But on Greek transliteration there's no reference neither. Stuff are not made up. They are from Aramaic Bible in Plain English Matthew 10:1-4, Mark 3:13-19, Luke 6:12-16, John 13:24-26, John 20:24 & John 21:2. Please undo the changes. Thank you. Gsom7 (talk) 13:01, 30 August 2017 (UTC)

The New Testament was not written in Aramaic but in Greek exclusively, hence Greek is transliterated for English Wikipedia. Aramaic or even Hebrew reverse transliterations (or rather, extrapolations) are WP:OR and WP:SYNTH, as no Aramaic or Hebrew names appear in any New Testament text. ♆ CUSH ♆ 21:13, 30 August 2017 (UTC)
I know that NT is written in Greek but not exclusively! Jesus and his Apostles spoke in Aramaic and that can be seen in NT with words like "abba" (Mk 14:36), "rabboni" (Jh 20:16) or "Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani" (Mt 27:46)... Most of apostles have Aramaic names that was transliterated to Greek in writings. Same as name of Son of God isn't Jesus but Yeshua, Jesus is transliteration on English from Latin (Iesus) transliterated from Greek (Iesous) transliterated from Aramaic. So real name of apostle John is Yohannan, of James is Yaqob, of Simon is Shimeon... I see nothing wrong with representing to people their real names, names that other people called them when they were alive. It's not WP:OR, it's from Aramaic Bible in Plain English, translation mentioned on wiki under Bible translations into English. Translation to English from Peshitta. Also Aramaic names can be find on wiki pages of apostles. I was trying put it all together that can all be seen on one place. Gsom7 (talk) 09:39, 1 September 2017 (UTC)

Four Evangelists

I strongly believe the Four Evangelists should be listed. More as a way to shake off any beliefs that they are also apostles. I mean, Matthew and John, for example, are thought to be apostles. But there's also separate articles, one for John the Apostle, and one for John the Evangelist, even though it's possible they're the same person. -- AlexanderHovanec (talk) 07:09, 22 November 2017 (UTC)

Seventy disciples

I also strongly recommend the mention of the seventy disciples. As they are also technically apostles. I think it should be added just to clarify... just to eliminate potential confusion. -- AlexanderHovanec (talk) 07:09, 22 November 2017 (UTC)

Mary Magdalene

Who was also regarded as one who travelled with Jesus. -- AlexanderHovanec (talk) 03:34, 26 November 2017 (UTC)

Ahem... hey, it's been awhile. How'we feeling about this? At least a mention... -- AlexanderHovanec (talk) 21:28, 18 January 2018 (UTC)

Query about Paul

Why is it that this article, when listing the whereabouts of the tombs of the Apostles, lists Paul? Paul was not one of the original twelve apostles of Jesus. Vorbee (talk) 07:56, 9 April 2018 (UTC)

12 Apostles

The list of 12 Apostles should contain 12 names. They are named in the New Testament, and the first 12 names here are those Apostles. And saying of Paul "He played a large role in composing the Bible" is just awful. This reads like a high school assignment. Paul is wrongly described as an Apostle in the literature, but he never even met Jesus. The section "List of the Twelve Apostles" should contain 12 names and no more. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2001:BB6:A26:DA58:9932:B2C2:BC4C:2B94 (talk) 15:45, 30 June 2018 (UTC)

It's not so simple, even the Bible says there were more apostles. Tgeorgescu (talk) 19:48, 30 June 2018 (UTC)

Useless references

References 32 to 44 are useless, as no works have been defined. That is nearly a third of the references. DuncanHill (talk) 15:32, 1 September 2018 (UTC)

Wrong relationships

The article states that 3 of the lesser known apostles where "Jesus' Half-Brother[s]", "Step-Brother[S] of Matthew" and "Step-Son[s] of Alphaeus". As much as I know, there is no direct biblical evidence for this. On the contrary, Matthew 12:46-50 contrasts Jesus's family vs. his disciples and John 7:5 says espicifically that "neither did his brethren believe in him" and mentions that his brothers refered to his disciples when arguing with him. Some would say maybe that, at John 7:5, the list of apostles was yet incomplete and Jesus´ brothers where added later, but Matthew 12 seems to be chronologically chapter 10. Knowing that James, Judas and Simon were very common names in the I century, that should be enough evident to delete these supposed relationships. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 189.154.68.227 (talk) 16:36, 20 September 2018 (UTC)

This section was written with the eisegesis of a Catholic, hence the omission of the half-brother information. In fact, there are parts explicitly stating certain individuals are not half-brothers which grossly violates the neutrality of the article. That's just my 2cents as a passer-by. Coachbricewilliams28 (talk) 19:20, 1 July 2019 (UTC)
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