Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Lewis W. Green/archive1

Add links
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Lewis W. Green[edit]

Lewis W. Green (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

As of 25 May 2024, 16:10 (UTC), this page is active and open for discussion. An FAC coordinator will be responsible for closing the nomination.
Toolbox
Nominator(s): PCN02WPS (talk | contribs) 01:07, 30 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I am excited to bring you my fourth FAC on a president of Centre College, this one about the school's fifth president and one of two members of its first graduating class. A skilled minister and educator, Lewis W. Green was president of Hampden–Sydney College in Virginia where he increased their enrollment and endowment and declined offer after offer from numerous other schools. After seven years there he departed for Kentucky's Transylvania University, though he stayed just over a year before returning to lead his alma mater. His five-plus-year term saw the outbreak of the Civil War and the school's use as a field hospital for both sides of the conflict at separate times. He died in office in 1863 after visiting injured soldiers and falling sick, and was buried a walking distance away from Centre in Bellevue Cemetery. Any and all comments and feedback, as always, are much appreciated! PCN02WPS (talk | contribs) 01:07, 30 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Image review

  • Suggest adding alt text
  • File:Lewis_W._Green_grave.jpg needs a tag for the original work. Nikkimaria (talk) 05:03, 30 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Nikkimaria alt text added. Do you think the little sculpture on the gravestone counts as an architectural work? I'm having trouble finding the applicable copyright category for it. PCN02WPS (talk | contribs) 06:05, 30 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The whole stone would be a sculptural work. Nikkimaria (talk) 00:23, 1 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Nikkimaria I'm not able to find a copyright template for sculptures separately so I have used {{PD-US-expired}}; does this suffice in this instance? PCN02WPS (talk | contribs) 02:01, 1 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Yep. Nikkimaria (talk) 02:08, 1 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Ajpolino[edit]

Interesting article on a topic I knew nothing about. Minor comments at first readthrough. Will return for more, hopefully soon.

  • "Green left Kentucky after a short time once again, this time in 1840..." suggest shortening to "Green again left Kentucky in 1840..." (or just "Green moved to Pittsburg..." or something like that)
  • "board of trustees in short order."
  • "institutions was Transylvania, who recruited" should it be "which recruited" since Transylvania is not a person (even though it's obviously standing in here for people associated with the school)?
  • "After being elected president of Centre College in August 1857, Green accepted the position following his departure from Transylvania and entered office in January 1858." seems a lot of words to communicate something like "Green was elected president of Centre College, and took up the position in January 1858."
  • "Kentucky as a consequence of being elected to teach at Centre" a bit clunky. Suggest "Kentucky when he was elected to teach at Centre"
  • "The pair spent two weeks... Ullmann, and Wilhelm Gesenius." makes it sound like husband and wife both studied under these theologians. True? Or was it just husband?
  • "he made the decision to emancipate his..." shorten to "he emancipated his..."?
  • "go Green decided to free them..." shorten to "go Green freed them..."?
  • "he recovered in a short time and was soon after back to preaching" had to read this twice to understand. Could we simplify to something like "he soon recovered and returned to preaching"?
  • "devote himself in a full-time role to preaching" shorten to "devote himself to preaching full-time" (or something like that)?
  • "He was a popular professor and preacher among students and rarely were there large-scale disagreements between the students and faculty" this reads oddly. What are you trying to get across with the second part? Seems like most schools would rarely have "large-scale disagreements between the students and faculty".
  • "in August 1851 he was successful... slavery in Washington, D.C." also odd to read. What does it mean to be "successful in debating" something?
    • I did word that kind of weird - I just meant that he was debating that issue and that he won the debate. It's not super relevant, though, so I removed it. PCN02WPS (talk | contribs) 16:35, 6 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • What does "being withdrawn from the benefits of the... charter" mean?
  • "It took until the 1954 election... for Hampden–Sydney to conduct an outside hire for president again." is this relevant? Maybe they just had internal candidates they happened to like for many years. It's not clear this belongs in a biography of Lewis Green.
    • I guess I felt like it showed that he was a sought-after leader who was a kind of exception to a norm for HSC - if you think it isn't relevant enough I can remove it though.
  • "on which occasion he delivered an address which was untitled." is this important?
  • "he led a campaign in support of the temperance movement and gave a lecture to the same effect." - do we need the note about the lecture? Seems like that could be considered part of his "campaign".
  • "During this first year... the 1857–1858 academic year." not sure this is necessary information, especially since the school will be dissolved in the next sentence.
    • I have clarified that the first "the school" mentioned in the sentence was Transy, not just the normal school - I think a picture of how Transy was doing in the midst of this reorganization is relevant enough especially considering Green's time at the school was, in a way, defined by this period of change
  • "His inaugural address was given on..." I'm not an anti-passive-voice person, but this instance seems to cry out to be reformulated to "He gave his inaugural address on..."
  • "By April, just months after he had taken office, he was named..." don't need this clause – we remember his term start was January from just two sentences earlier.
  • "this was a position he held until..." could be slightly snappier as "he held this position until..."
  • "due to the Civil War and its proximity to Centre" due to the school's proximity to Centre? Or do to the Civil War's proximity to Centre (so to speak)?
    • The latter (Centre is the school) - I tried to expand on that in the following sentence PCN02WPS (talk | contribs) 16:35, 6 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • "The college did not reopen until October 27 and thirteen days of classes were ultimately lost." seems unnecessarily repetitive, especially emphasizing a relatively short gap (I expected to read that the college remained closed until the war's end).
  • "main building, was still occupied; at one point" perhaps this sentence should say it was occupied and being used as a hospital. Then the next sentence wouldn't seem such a surprise.
  • " autopsies in progress on their way to a professor's office" very strange way to end the section on his career. Perhaps the sources allow another sentence or two on Green's role during the civil war, and his involvement in the hospital operations that (presumedly) led to his death?
    • I have to run to class but I will take a look through the sources when I have some time later this afternoon. PCN02WPS (talk | contribs) 16:35, 6 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Green is a member of the..." right before this, it would fit nicely to note that he and Lawrence (I assume) had X children together (two?) so it doesn't come as a surprise that one married into a political family.
  • "This period of illness... biographer Leroy Halsey." suggesting moving this up a half-sentence so that it precedes "he died...".
@Ajpolino: Thank you for the review! I won't have a ton of time with my computer this weekend so I am hoping to address your comments by tomorrow or Monday - apologies for the delay. PCN02WPS (talk | contribs) 16:33, 4 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Ajpolino: I believe everything has been changed or responded to (save for one thing)! Thanks again! PCN02WPS (talk | contribs) 16:35, 6 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Ajpolino I added a sentence about what he was doing at the school and in town during this time, is there anything else you'd recommend there? PCN02WPS (talk | contribs) 21:41, 15 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Pardon my absence! I'll take another readthrough in the next few days, and then I expect to support. Ajpolino (talk) 17:31, 18 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Hi Ajpolino, how is this one coming along? Gog the Mild (talk) 17:41, 23 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for the prod. Should be able to get back to this in the next 24 hours. Pardon the delay. Ajpolino (talk) 20:24, 23 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Round two (final round, no doubt), all small things:

  • Not a huge deal, but several sentences in the first paragraph of the lead are very long and easy to get lost in. If you could shorten or split one or two of them, that would enhance the readability.
  • "Some time after returning" Seems an unnecessary distinction for the lead.
  • "oriental literature and biblical literature"
  • "Around this time, he was being considered for the vacant presidency of Hampden–Sydney College and was unanimously elected to the position by the board of trustees." it reads odd to include these two moments – (1) Him being considered, followed by (2) him being elected – when you don't do the same for the other positions. Is this important? Slows the flow of the paragraph.
  • "In addition to being president, he"
  • "Kentucky General Assembly, though the bill" this might be a good place to break a long sentence into two (and remove "though"; and possibly reword since the antecedent of the following "it" is mildly unclear).
  • "Green elected president" I think a word got lost here.
  • "much of Centre's firsthand experience in the" seems an unimportant distinction for the lead; also rings odd to my ear for a town to have a "firsthand experience".
  • "came from Duncan F. Robertson and Joshua Fry" a weird detail to read without context. Do we know anything about these two men? Are they schoolteachers? Famous classicists? Wanderers?
  • "suffered a "malignant fever", according to the biographer Leroy Halsey," feels strange to include a direct quote for something so matter of fact. Could we just say he was seriously ill for two weeks and nearly died, dropping the fact that Halsey called it a "malignant fever"?
  • "and also enrolled" seems redundant?
  • "He did ultimately return" → "He ultimately returned" flows better to my ear, though perhaps that's just a matter of personal preference.
  • "He was first licensed as" seems obvious from the context.
  • "where they heard lectures..." I alluded to this above, but the cited source only says he (rather than "they") attended lectures.
  • "and he resigned his teaching positions at Centre in order to moved to Hanover, Indiana, so he could accept the new job" this is obvious in context and doesn't need stating.
  • "He returned to Danville having completed his stint at Hanover at the conclusion of the 1838–1839 academic year and upon his arrival was elected vice president of Centre College" - Had to read this twice to understand. Suggest untangling the Hanover part from the Danville part. Something like "At the conclusion of the 1838-1839 academic year, he completed his stint in Hanover and returned to Danville. Upon his arrival, he was elected..."
  • "In May 1840, soon after taking up these positions at Centre, Green was called" unneeded; the timeline is fresh in our head's from a couple sentences earlier.
  • "Western Theological Seminary in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania" our article suggests the seminary could have been in nearby Washington, Pennsylvania at that time. The source just says "Alleghany, Pennsylvania" (the county that Pittsburgh, but not Washington, is in -- not sure if it has always been that way). Could you just have a look and make sure "in Pittsburgh" is correct?
  • "his 25 to 30 slaves, who technically belonged" → "the 25 to 30 slaves, who belonged..." not to absolve him of responsibility with the removal of "his", but rather to remove "technically" which seems unnecessary and grates a bit to my ear.
  • "inheritance,[17] since he could not take them to Pennsylvania and have them remain enslaved and did not want to leave them enslaved." Already a complex sentence, and this end bit doesn't add much meaning. Suggest cutting it.
  • "Green freed them while allowing them to remain..." → "Green freed them and allowed them to remain" could be personal preference, but the "while allowing" reads oddly to me.
  • "... Maryland, in order to take up the pastorate of that city's Second Presbyterian Church as part of a desire to and devote himself to preaching full-time." - shorter and avoids the (I think) awkward "as part of a desire"
  • "the beginning of his pastorate in Baltimore" → "his arrival"
  • "He ultimately decided to resigned"
  • "even so, according to Leroy Halsey... new church edifice." I think this is slightly rosier than what the cited source says. Halsey says "in consideration of his failing health and consequent removal from the pastorate" the trustees removed released him from this $1000 pledge. Not sure this episode really merits inclusion either way, but if you do keep it consider slightly rewording, and removing the explicit attribution to Halsey (unless you doubt the incident occurred and want it attributed?).
  • "had already begun considering him" → "were considering him"?
  • "January 10, 1849,[27][25] at which he delivered a speech to the board of trustees.[28] During this speech he called for" suggest consolidating into "January 10, 1849. In a speech to the board of trustees, he called for..." to reduce repetition.
  • "professors as several of his main "
  • "as a way of campaigning for well-roundedness of students to be a priority of the college" could be personal preference, but this reads smoother to me unwound as "as a way of campaigning for the college to prioritize well-roundedness of the students."
  • "the year after,[32] and the school's" suggest splitting this sentence here.
  • "much of the faculty, was a " seems like a word got lost from this sentence.
  • "It was during Green's presidency... becoming their own institution." suggesting moving this up to the paragraph about the institution during Green's presidency (i.e. immediately following "further increases in funding". Also suggest shortening it to something like "During Green's presidency, a disagreement between the faculty of the Richmond Medical College (now the VCU Medical Center) and the Hampden–Sydney Board of Trustees that oversaw them resulted in the effective separation of the institutions." Maybe the source supports something more artful. The current level of detail seems unnecessary to Green's biography.
  • "declined an later offer"
  • "As there were many in Kentucky who wanted him to accept the position, he traveled to Lexington" - we get the same sense from the next part of the sentence, which says he was received enthusiastically.
  • "was next to occupy" → "occupied"
  • "It took until the 1954 ... hire for president again" I still think this is irrelevant and may not reflect on Green at all; though I'm hesitant to push for this if no one has an issue with it but me.
  • " according to the Transylvania historian John Wright Jr., by large majorities" do we need to explicitly call out the historian who wrote this? Seems like uncontroversial fact for us to repeat with only citation for credit.
  • "though not without some physical trouble." can you expand on or clarify this at all? Halsey suggests Green overworked himself to infirmity; though Halsey says a lot on this topic, and I admit to skimming parts.
  • "done so,[71] and Green was" suggest splitting this sentence here.

Source review by Generalissima[edit]

Oh, obscure 19th century American figure? This is exactly my wheelhouse. I'll look through these sources in a little bit. Generalissima (talk) (it/she) 17:32, 8 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Generalissima courtesy ping, if you're still interested in having a look. PCN02WPS (talk | contribs) 21:38, 20 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Comments by Dugan Murphy[edit]

I'll write some out here. Dugan Murphy (talk) 22:12, 13 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  • The mention of "Judge John Green" without any further biographical information is frustrating to me as a reader. Is his first name Judge? If Judge is his title, can you make that clear by adding just a phrase about the circumstances of this judgeship? How did such a seemingly young person get to be a judge?
  • "renowned teachers" looks like MOS:SCAREQUOTES. If this is a quote from a person, the text needs to state attribution, per MOS:QUOTE. Same for "malignant fever", "influential gentlemen", "the whole Man", "prominent men", and "advanced stage".
    • Removed some, attributed some. PCN02WPS (talk | contribs) 03:46, 16 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
      • I think the "malignant fever" sentence is a bit unwieldy as a result. I recommend rewording and/or splitting.
  • "His first education came ... by way of" reads awkwardly to me and requires some mental gymnastics for me to understand. I recommend rewording that sentence, considering the possibility of breaking it into two sentences. It might read more like "At thirteen, he began studying Greek and Latin at a classical school".
  • Note A looks like WP:ORIGINALRESEARCH. What source says he did not attain a graduate degree from another institution?
  • This sentence clause doesn't make sense: "but did not graduate from either after returning to Kentucky when he was elected to teach at Centre". Could you clarify?
  • The way this sentence reads, it says Green was in multiple places on one day: "preached in Danville, its surroundings, and elsewhere in Kentucky on nearly every Sunday". I don't think that's what you mean, so I recommend a rewording.
  • The last sentence of the "Professor and pastor in Danville" section contains a list of incongruous clauses: "was elected", "returned", and "appointed". You could change "returned" to "reappointed" for instance, though maybe that doesn't sound well given the last clause.
    • This is likely a problem of me being stupid but I don't understand the issue with these - would you mind clarifying? PCN02WPS (talk | contribs) 21:13, 20 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
      • My point is that, where as "was elected" and "was appointed" make sense, "was returned" doesn't, if you're reading this as "Green returned". However, if you mean it as "Green was returned", then I suppose it reads just fine as is. Is that the case? Dugan Murphy (talk) 02:35, 24 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Wikilink Presbyterian polity#General assembly?
  • I think Manumission is a more appropriate word and Wikilink than emancipation here.
  • "his 25 to 30 slaves" would read better as "the 25 to 30 people he enslaved".
    • I don't know that I agree 100%; the former seems more concise to me. PCN02WPS (talk | contribs) 21:13, 20 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
      • That's fair enough, especially because that sentence is already kinda long and clunky. But I really would prefer a better recognition of the humanity of the people enslaved by Green. Dugan Murphy (talk) 02:35, 24 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Is the purpose of "his move from Kentucky, a slave state, to Pennsylvania, a free state," to illustrate that Green's decision to manumit the laborers he enslaved was made for him by geography? If so, I recommend making that clear.
  • "willing to go Green" – a comma is needed after "go".
  • "freed them as they were" reads ambiguous to me. If I understand correctly, it sounds more appropriate to say "allowed them to stay in the US".
  • "he was well-loved" is an opinion that I think should be attributed.
    • Changed to be slightly more true to source and attributed. PCN02WPS (talk | contribs) 21:13, 20 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
      • I notice that in your rewording, you wrote out Halsey's full name. Since you do that and label him as a biographer in the first naming instance, in this second instance you can omit the first name if you prefer. You do that in the third instance, which makes the fourth/last instance "biographer Leroy Halsey" instance seem out of place, so I definitely recommend shortening that last one. Dugan Murphy (talk) 02:35, 24 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Typo: "returnedf"
  • "had increased" – delete "had".
    • Is there a reason to delete had? I was going for past perfect tense since it's talking about what the endowment had done before he left office. PCN02WPS (talk | contribs) 21:13, 20 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
      • I get what you're saying now and I agree it is better left alone. Dugan Murphy (talk) 02:35, 24 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Political economy is WP:DUPLINKed.
  • In general, I think this article overuses the semicolon. I recommend replacing with periods in instances in which they make a sentence too long and/or the two halves of the sentences they link are not closely related.
    • Removed most and either split sentences or reworded - left a few that I think are appropriate
  • The sentence that begins "This became a theme" is too long and unwieldy, particularly because of the double-dashed "and did".
    • Split into 3 sentences and removed a lot of unneeded detail from the last part. PCN02WPS (talk | contribs) 21:13, 20 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • I'm not sure that "large majorities" needs quotation marks. It seems like a statement that we should be free to say without, given the attribution you gave.
    • Removed. Also took out part of the sentence following that, since I found it unnecessary to describe when it took effect and immediately after give the exact date. PCN02WPS (talk | contribs) 21:13, 20 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Does "bringing 300 new students to the school" refer to Centre College? That kind of wording seems out of place given the previous sentences were about the Second Presbyterian Church and the First Presbyterian Church. And then the next sentence refers to something being close to Centre, so apparently we're not talking about Centre here.
    • Yes, "the school" is Centre - the next sentence is also referring to Centre (Enrollment (at Centre) declined drastically due to the Civil War and its (the Civil War's) proximity to Centre). Happy to reword if you think this is poorly written. PCN02WPS (talk | contribs) 21:13, 20 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
      • Ah, I was reading that "the school" has "proximity to Centre", though I believe now that it is in fact the Civil War which has proximity to Centre. I recommend a slight rewording to clarify that. Perhaps "its proximity" can be changed to "the battles' proximity". Dugan Murphy (talk) 02:35, 24 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • It's not as specific, but I think changing "the year before the war's start" to "before the war" would make this sentence easier to read.
  • "57 two" – having these two numbers next to each other is not ideal.
  • I think "acquired more slaves; he owned ten" would read better as "enslaved more people; he enslaved ten".
    • I don't love the repetition of "enslaved"; plus, as I understand it, they were already enslaved when Green got them, as opposed to Green himself putting them into slavery. PCN02WPS (talk | contribs) 21:13, 20 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
      • I see what you're saying about the repetition in my recommendation. How about "enslaved more people; he held ten in bondage"? What I'm going for here (and in the article's first mention of slavery) is recognizing the humanity of the enslaved, as well as Green's choice to enslave others. I am also under the impression that enslaving is not just the process of selling someone into bondage, but also the state of holding someone in bondage. Dugan Murphy (talk) 02:35, 24 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Note B: I don't think the parenthetical dates are necessary. Those dates are in the inline citations.
  • Do the sources say anything about the people enslaved by Green not included here? Perhaps what they did for him? That would help in describing and humanizing them.
    • Sadly, not that I can find; I wouldn't expect a ton of information to exist about them since they were dehumanized to the maximum extent possible (i.e. not viewed as humans in the first place) in that time. PCN02WPS (talk | contribs) 21:13, 20 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
      • Reading page 26 of Halsey and searching in it for keywords like "slave", I can likewise see no insight into the role of the folks enslaved by Green. I'm guessing they ran his house as domestic workers. Twenty-five people seems like a lot of staff for a family of four, though Halsey does say Green came by most of these folks by inheritance, so Green may have had little contact with some of them. But that's neither here nor there if the sources are silent. Dugan Murphy (talk) 02:35, 24 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • With the exception of Bascom and Young, the predecessors and successors in the infobox are nowhere in the article. I think you should add them to the article if they're going to be in the infobox.

750h[edit]

  • @PCN02WPS: hi PCN02WPS, I'll take a look at this. Let me know when the above two reviewers finish, in case I duplicate anything. Best, 750h+ 09:08, 23 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Retrieved from "https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Featured_article_candidates/Lewis_W._Green/archive1&oldid=1225394149"