Wikipedia talk:WikiProject University of Oxford/Archive 5

Lists of JCR / MCR presidents in college articles

• St Hugh's College, Oxford
• Talk:St Hugh's College, Oxford#JCR and MCR Presidents

WP:NLIST says "a list within an article of past school presidents can contain all past presidents, not just those who are independently notable." Does this mean academic heads of institutions, or student presidents? Are there any other relevant guidelines that help for or against the inclusion of the list of student presidents in the article? Please join the discussion at the article's talk page. Thank you. Bencherlite^Talk 13:34, 23 November 2010 (UTC)

Tony Blair

Editors here may be interested in assisting with the Good Article nomination of Tony Blair. The review can be found at Talk:Tony Blair/GA1. GA is reachable, but it will require hard work. Any assistance would be appreciated. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 23:02, 27 February 2011 (UTC)

Thomas Beecham

Thomas Beecham is having a peer review here. Comments are very much appreciated. Thanks, Darth Sjones23 (talk - contributions) 14:00, 17 March 2011 (UTC)

Edith Hall

Perhaps somebody here with some time on their hands could have a look at this article, it needs some work to bring it up to standards. Thanks! --Crusio (talk) 19:50, 21 March 2011 (UTC)

Category:Architects who worked in Oxford

Contributions on the Category:Architects who worked in Oxford CfD discussion would be welcome here. — Jonathan Bowen (talk) 08:52, 27 May 2011 (UTC)

Proposed deletion of St. Anne's Geldart Law Society

The article St. Anne's Geldart Law Society has been proposed for deletion because of the following concern:

non-notable student organisation; unsourced and I cannot find any non-trivial coverage in reliable sources

While all contributions to Wikipedia are appreciated, content or articles may be deleted for any of several reasons.

You may prevent the proposed deletion by removing the {{proposed deletion/dated}} notice, but please explain why in your edit summary or on the article's talk page.

Please consider improving the article to address the issues raised. Removing {{proposed deletion/dated}} will stop the proposed deletion process, but other deletion processes exist. The speedy deletion process can result in deletion without discussion, and articles for deletion allows discussion to reach consensus for deletion.

The original author of the page is inactive, which is why I'm leaving a message here. Bencherlite^Talk 15:23, 2 June 2011 (UTC)

It looked to me like a clear A7 speedy so I tagged it as such and it has been deleted. – ukexpat (talk) 15:51, 2 June 2011 (UTC)

Don't disagree. It lasted nearly 5 1/2 years in a very poor state without anyone tagging it for deletion, then two come along at once! Bencherlite^Talk 11:35, 3 June 2011 (UTC)

Queen's College v. The Queen's College

There are currently two different quasi-identical articles on The Queen's college Oxford. Surely one would suffice and the other can be linked / redirected to point at it.

The articles are <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Queen%27s_College,_Oxford">under this URL</a> and <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Queen%27s_College,_Oxford">under that URL</a>

You might be tempted to believe that the two URLs ultimately refer to the same source code, but they do not. I updated the stale boatclub link on one version and then had a surreal moment or two, discovering that there are two parallel versions of the same page.

Paul, Oxford (23:00 23 rd July 2011 (UTC)) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 163.1.243.41 (talk) 22:58, 23 July 2011 (UTC)

There are not two articles. The only article is at The Queen's College, Oxford. If you click on Queen's College, Oxford, you will end up at the same article, with a note (Redirected from Queen's College, Oxford) at the top. If you saw old text after editing the article, it's a problem at your end, probably because you need to bypass the cached version of the page that your browser was using. Bencherlite^Talk 08:29, 17 August 2011 (UTC)

"H.V.V. Dyson" = H.V.D. Dyson? (Hugo Dyson)

Our article C. S. Lewis contains this quote from his book Surprised by Joy:

When I began teaching for the English Faculty, I made two other friends, both Christians ...

They were H.V.V. Dyson ... and J.R.R. Tolkien.

I don't have a copy of the book available.

I'd like to Wikilink "H.V.V. Dyson", but I think that this spelling is an error.

Hugo Dyson, who signed his writings H.V.D. Dyson, was an Inkling and "a committed Christian, and together with J.R.R. Tolkien, he helped persuade C.S. Lewis to convert to Christianity."

I assume that "H.V.V. Dyson" should read "H.V.D. Dyson", but I certainly don't want to edit a direct quote without verifying it.

Anyone?

-- 186.221.131.194 (talk) 23:42, 16 August 2011 (UTC)

According to Google Books, "Surprised by Joy" includes the phrase "H.V.V Dyson" but does not include "H.V.D. Dyson", which suggests that the error is in the book. Dyson is already linked in the article as "Hugo Dyson", and Wikipedia tends not to link names or other words inside quotations, but if you think it would be helpful to link Dyson again as he's referred to just by his initials in the quotation, go ahead! Bencherlite^Talk 08:36, 17 August 2011 (UTC)

Hertford College, Oxford

I've rewritten and expanded Hertford College, Oxford (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs), and reclassified it as B-class. I would appreciate any feedback on the article, especially whether it might be ready to promote as a Good Article. Thanks. — Gareth Hughes (talk) 14:52, 14 April 2012 (UTC)

Improved and Standardised Images

I've been working on a collection of vector graphic forms of the college coats of arms along with motto's and blazon's for them here. For some like queen's, this represents a vast improvement over the current image but for the others, the only real advantage is that its a vector graphic and matches the format of all the others should they be adopted across all the Oxford Colleges. I leave this up to a general opinion as to wether to go ahead and migrate these over to the colleges (either now or when I have completed most or all of them). ChevronTango (talk) 23:23, 19 April 2012 (UTC)

The ones you have done so far look excellent! It would be great to have a matching set as we don't have even a complete non-matching set at present, as far as I can remember. As far as I'm concerned, feel free to replace as and when you're ready - this isn't the busiest of talk pages, as you may have realised, so it may be a while before anyone else notices this thread. Many thanks for your hard work. Bencherlite^Talk 23:30, 19 April 2012 (UTC)

They certainly look good. If we're planning a tidy up, is the plan to add these in the infobox of each article? Current practice is a mixture of putting the arms there and putting them in a separate section discussing the arms. Both have merits and disadvantages. Jonathan A Jones (talk) 06:56, 20 April 2012 (UTC)

A mixture of both would be my preferance. With the exception of Green Templeton I've managed to track down the blazon for all of them so if we were to display the arms with the blazon beneath it in the info box, a seperate section could then detail the history of the arms, for example noting the Motto for St Catherines as being relevant to its age and history, or that Oriel was founded by Edward II and hence its arms. This would require minimal change on alot of the articles and provide uniformity and content. I still need to finish most of the colleges. If anyone knows Green Templeton's Blazon I'd be desperately happy to hear from you. ChevronTango (talk) 09:42, 20 April 2012 (UTC)

Or between two flaunches vert on each a nautilus shell the aperture outwards or a rod of Aesculapius sable the serpent azure. Jonathan A Jones (talk) 14:49, 20 April 2012 (UTC)

Much Apreciated for that one. I had sent an email of to the college of arms about it I was so desperate but they never got back to me. The images are coming along now, not that many left to do. ChevronTango (talk) 20:06, 20 April 2012 (UTC)

Glad to help; they are all in the University Calendar. Since we're being fussy, shouldn't the Magdalen lillies be seeded or? Jonathan A Jones (talk) 21:19, 20 April 2012 (UTC)

You are completely right and it hadn't slipped my notice, but I hadn't got around to fixing that one. I did Magdalen as one of my early ones when I was working off referance images alone and not blazons. I will ammend it in the coming days. There's a few other curiosities aswell, for example are the martlets on Worcester's Gules or Sable? ChevronTango (talk) 21:39, 20 April 2012 (UTC)

Thank you for these: they look good. The Hertford motto uses the unusual verb anhelat (anhelar is just a typo). Also at Hertford, we sometimes have the crest shown with silver antlers, but I believe gold is right, and so it should read 'attired Or'. The phrase 'hart's head' is to be preferred over 'stag's head'. I included the blazon that seems to be agreed here in the article Hertford College, Oxford. — Gareth Hughes (talk) 23:17, 20 April 2012 (UTC)

I agree on some points but the rules of blazoning state you shouldn't repeat a tincture where possible, so with the exception of replacing Stag with Hart, the remainder of the blazon by the strictest rules of Heraldry is correct, in that the attire and the cross are all refered to as Or. ChevronTango (talk) 23:31, 20 April 2012 (UTC)

The rules of blazoning seem to be changing, with a move towards compromise descriptions such as "all or" and away from formulations such as "of the second". But in any case we should remember that Wikipedia is about verifiability not about truth, and so what matters is what reliable sources say the blazon is. I have been using the Oxford University Calendar as the standard reliable source for college blazons, and I would suggest that we stick with this unless a better source can be found (note that colleges prepare their own entries for the calendar, so the forms there can be taken as official statements by the college). For Hertford this states "Gules, a stag's head caboshed argent, attired, and between the attires a cross patty fitchy at the foot, or". Jonathan A Jones (talk) 10:33, 23 April 2012 (UTC)

When next I'm in London I'll make an appointment at the college of arms and do some research into modern blazoning and the various colleges they have on record. That way we can update the page on blazoning at the same time with any modern views. For now, I think we should use the Calendar entries, despite some of them being (at least in my view) erroneous. I'll keep a record of all the blazon's I have on my user page for possible use later and let you know what I find. It could be a while though. ChevronTango (talk) 11:24, 23 April 2012 (UTC)

Fine. Note that many colleges adopted arms unofficially, and so the college of arms may not have full records. Jonathan A Jones (talk) 13:33, 23 April 2012 (UTC)

The case of Worcester is complex: the official blazon is "Argent, two chevrons between six martlets, three, two and one, gules". Which is interesting because (1) the chevrons would normally be called chevronels, and (2) the martlets are usually (but not always!) drawn sable, rather than gules as indicated in the blazon [1]. The discussion at Talk:Worcester College, Oxford#Coat of arms suggests you have already started looking into this! Jonathan A Jones (talk) 10:42, 23 April 2012 (UTC)

I think we should limit discussions like that to the discussion pages of the various colleges and instead leave this page to the over arching issues, such as what to do about blazons and general layout. Since I've finished all the graphics work now, I'll probably bow out now and leave this to people with more knowledge on the subject than I. ChevronTango (talk) 11:24, 23 April 2012 (UTC)

Fine - though I don't think you seeded the Magdalen lilies?. Could I also ask for a copy of the alternate Worcester crest with martlets gules? Jonathan A Jones (talk) 13:33, 23 April 2012 (UTC)

As a point to note I have now finished all of the colleges. I will probably ammend a few of them in the coming few weeks to correct any errors or inconsistancies but they can start going on the college pages if that's the general consensus. ChevronTango (talk) 21:56, 21 April 2012 (UTC)

I think there is consensus on the images, but I don't think there's consensus on including the blazon in the infobox; I for one don't like it. The infoboxes are getting ridiculously large as it is, and some colleges have very complex blazons. I would suggest using the blazon as the alt text for the images in the infobox, and then using it, together with a discussion of historic origins, relations to founders' arms, and other niceties, in a separate section. Jonathan A Jones (talk) 10:04, 22 April 2012 (UTC)

I'll be happy to go through and create a breif history of each college coat of arms on the various pages including blazon at some point, but thats almost as massive a job as creating them in the first place and I'm a computer scientist, not a historian, so I probably wouldn't be the best one for it. ChevronTango (talk) 15:43, 22 April 2012 (UTC)

On a tangentally related note, is it worth trying to standardise the college userboxes now that these are all done? ChevronTango (talk) 15:43, 22 April 2012 (UTC)

Probably not, but you might fancy having a go at the PPHs? I can provide blazons if you wish. Jonathan A Jones (talk) 13:33, 23 April 2012 (UTC)

That would be helpful. I'm sure I can find some referance images somewhere also. It will likely be the weekend before I can get to them. ChevronTango (talk) 10:16, 24 April 2012 (UTC)

Blazons of the Permanent Private Halls

Taken from the 2010-11 Oxford University Calendar. See also the pictures at [2] and [3].

• Blackfriars: blazon not stated, but drawn like the shield at the top left of their web page.
• Campion Hall: Argent on a cross sable a plate charged with a wolf's head erased of the second between in pale two billets of the weld that in chief charged with a cinquefoil and that in base with a saltire gules and in fesse as many plates each charged with a campion flower leaved and slipped proper on a chief also of the second two branches of palm in saltire enfiled with a celestial crown or. See also their web page.
• Regent's Park College: Argent on a cross gules an open bible proper irradiated or the pages inscribed with the words DOMINUS JESUS in letters sable on a chief wavy azure fish or.
• St Benet's Hall: Per fesse dancetté or and azure, a chief per pale gules and of the second, charged on the dexter with two keys in saltire or and argent, and on the sinister with a cross flory betwen five martlets of the first.
• St Stephen's House: Gules a celestial crown between three bezants two and one or, on a chief sable an apostolic eagle between two crosses crosslet or. See also their web page.
• Wycliffe Hall: blazon not stated but drawn as shown at [4]. The book says "VIA VERITAS VITA".

Enjoy! Jonathan A Jones (talk) 15:50, 25 April 2012 (UTC)

Blackfriars is I think something like Gyronny sable and argent, a cross fleury counterchanged. Jonathan A Jones (talk) 16:08, 25 April 2012 (UTC)

Wycliffe will be something like Gules, an Open Book proper edged and bound Or, between on a chief azure three cross crosslets and in base an estoile or. I apreciate thats not quite right but thats the limit of my blazoning knowledge I've picked up. I don't quite know the exact colouring of the book or if indeed the cross' and the estoile is infact or (they certainly look it).

This is going to be quite a large job so it may be a while before I have anything tangible to present. I'll need to work on a celestial crown, an apostolic eagle, a wolfes head, just to name a few. St Benet's hall should be okay, and wycliffe, as I've got most of there charges already done. ChevronTango (talk) 15:55, 26 April 2012 (UTC)

On an aside the varsity shop has some excellent images to use for referance, for example Blackfriars. ChevronTango (talk) 16:00, 26 April 2012 (UTC)

See here. ChevronTango (talk) 22:59, 26 April 2012 (UTC)

Thanks. Blackfriars is really stylish; I suspect Campion will look horrible! Jonathan A Jones (talk) 08:39, 27 April 2012 (UTC)

Can you give me some pointers on campion. I havee it sort of done, though the black cross and black chief are quite bold. What does a campion flower look like? I've not ever seen one in heraldry (or in RL for that matter) so have no idea how to draw one properly. I'm only missing that and the palm fronds and then they are all done. ChevronTango (talk) 00:31, 2 May 2012 (UTC)

The palm fronds are gold right? ChevronTango (talk) 00:34, 2 May 2012 (UTC)

Looking good. Two minor errors: the spelling on the Wycliffe Book, and for St Stephen's house the chief should be sable not azure. For Campion, yes the fronds are or; the best picture I have been able to find online is at [5] which fits the blazon (assuming that "two billets of the weld" is a misprint for "two billets of the field", which seems plausible) and also matches a copy I saw on some Campion headed notepaper. The use of campions in heraldry seems extremely rare, so beyond colouring them pink I wouldn't worry too much. Jonathan A Jones (talk) 07:19, 2 May 2012 (UTC)

And thats the last one done now. As expected Campion Hall looks rubbish but other than that I'm reasnably happy with how they've all turned out. Still need to correct some mistakes and improve some of the other colleges but I think I'm happy enough for now. Perhaps we should consider letting this rathetr large thread of text die in favour of a to do list, perhaps on my user page's talk page. We still need a full blazon for wycliffe, but that's all we are missing now. ChevronTango (talk) 11:49, 2 May 2012 (UTC)

Campion looks brilliant considering the sheer awfulness of the blazon. And yes, let's more further conversation to your talk page. Jonathan A Jones (talk) 13:51, 2 May 2012 (UTC)

I have been checking the images for errors and this is what I have come up with so far: (1) Brasenose, Our Lady should be seated on a tombstone, not a throne; (2) Lincoln, the three stags should be statant not trippant; (3) Magdalen, the lilies still need seeding and slipping; (4) University, the cross should be patonce not fleury (though the difference is subtle!). Regards. Jonathan A Jones (talk) 08:47, 27 April 2012 (UTC)

I had noticed all of those with the exception of lincoln's, which I must admit had slipped me by. The univ one was again, like magdalen, an early one that I did from referance, so clearly the referance was erroneous. Can I call for a bit of error checking on either brasenose or lincoln as they both use the see of lincoln so should, at least in theory, have the same blazon for the central escutcheon. I say this partly because I'm curious and partly because I really don't know how I'm going to do a tombstone. Still, I volunteered myself so might as well do the Job right. ChevronTango (talk) 09:12, 27 April 2012 (UTC)

As far as I can tell the correct blazon for the See of Lincoln is "Gules, two lions passant guardant or on a chief azure Our Lady sitting with her Babe crowned and sceptred of the second". This gets variously emblazoned as "stting on a chair", "sitting on a throne", "sitting on a tombstone" and just "sitting", and I assume the Brasenose/Lincoln variation simply reflects two excessively detailed blazonings of different emblazonings. That said the Brasenose arms are in my experience always drawn with a tombstone as shown at [6], while the Lincoln arms seem more variable. Jonathan A Jones (talk) 13:30, 28 April 2012 (UTC)

End of section

This thread is now effectively closed with further discussion moving to the appropriate section at ChevronTango's talk page. Jonathan A Jones (talk) 13:51, 2 May 2012 (UTC)

I move to reopen this thread purely because a number of editors have begun to restore the older badges back the pages, most notably Teddy Hall and now Trinity. I know very little of wikipedian policy so is there a way to combat this (if that is indeed what we should do) or legislate the Coats Of Arms. If the consensus is the older ones were better I'm okay with that but given the newer ones are SVG and all match it would be worthwhile keeping them in my mind. ChevronTango (talk) 23:15, 11 May 2012 (UTC)

In my experience it is not often easy or sensible to try and impose uniform decisions on a group of pages each member of which is largely mantained by a local interest group, so I am not sure how much point there is in trying to "combat" it. If you really want to start some sort of campaign you need to build it firmly around wikipedia policies rather than the quality of the images. One obvious possibility would be to attempt to delete the original images from wikipedia commons on the grounds that the fair use rationale no longer applies? But I don't think I would advise playing hard ball to that extent. I will, however, keep a firm eye on the collection at Colleges of the University of Oxford as those should be kept uniform. Jonathan A Jones (talk) 17:40, 12 May 2012 (UTC)