Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Indonesia/Archive 9

Bali
Bali
Province
	Location of Bali in Indonesia
	Coordinates: 8°20′06″S 115°05′17″E / 8.33500°S 115.08806°E
Country	Indonesia
Established	14 August 1958
Capital; and largest city	Denpasar
Government
• Governor	I Wayan Koster (PDI-P)
Area
• Total	5,780 km2 (2,230 sq mi)
Population (mid 2019)
• Total	4,362,000
• Density	750/km2 (2,000/sq mi)
Demographics
• Ethnic groups	90% Balinese; 7% Javanese; 1% Baliaga; 1% Madurese;
• Religion	83.5% Hinduism; 13.4% Islam; 2.5% Christianity; 0.5% Buddhism;
Time zone	UTC+08 (WITA)
HDI	0.747 (High)
Website	baliprov.go.id

Bali
Bali
Province
Regional transcription(s)
• Balinese	ᬩᬮᬶ
	File:GarudaWisnuKencana head.jpg From top, left to right:; Sunset over Amed beach with Mount Agung in the background, Garuda Wisnu Kencana monument, Tanah Lot temple, view from top of Besakih Temple, scuba diving around Pemuteran, sunset over Kuta Beach, and various traditional Balinese people activities
	Nicknames: Pulau Dewata (Island of Deities), Island of Gods, Island of Peace, Morning of The World, Island of Hinduism, Island of Love
	Motto(s): ᬩᬮᬶᬤ᭄ᬯᬶᬧᬚᬬ; Bali Dwipa Jaya (Balinese); (meaning: Glorious Bali Island)
	Location of Bali in Indonesia
	Coordinates: 8°20′06″S 115°05′17″E / 8.33500°S 115.08806°E
Country	Indonesia
Established	14 August 1958
Capital; and largest city	Denpasar
Government
• Governor	I Wayan Koster (PDI-P)
• Vice Governor	Tjokorda Oka A. A. Sukawati
Area
• Total	5,780 km2 (2,230 sq mi)
Population (mid 2019)
• Total	4,362,000
• Density	750/km2 (2,000/sq mi)
Demographics
• Ethnic groups	90% Balinese; 7% Javanese; 1% Baliaga; 1% Madurese;
• Religion	83.5% Hinduism; 13.4% Islam; 2.5% Christianity; 0.5% Buddhism;
• Languages	Indonesian (official); Balinese; Balinese Malay; English; Mandarin;
Time zone	UTC+08 (WITA)
Vehicle registration	DK
HDI	0.747 (High)
Website	baliprov.go.id

This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page.

Archive 5

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Why is English Wikipedia so popular in Indonesia?

Looking at [1], I find it surprising that half of the views from Indonesia are to English Wikipedia. I'd have thought that since majority of Indonesians speak Indonesian language, they would read ind-wiki. I wonder if there's some education/wealth gap, i.e. since Internet penetration is only 25%, most people who have Internet are better educated, so can speak English, so go to English Wikipedia, and most who use ind-wiki are less educated people with poorer/none English skills? --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 16:08, 29 July 2018 (UTC)

@Piotrus: I think the partial explanation is that the English Wikipedia has better coverage (both in terms of quality and quantity) than the Indonesian one. For example, if you do a web search on certain topic with no Indonesian article, the search engine will probably return the English wikipedia as one of the top result. As for language speakerrs, you are correct that there should be far more people comfortable with Indonesian than with English. But if the topic you're searching has no or low-quality coverage in the Indonesian WP, you have little choice. HaEr48 (talk) HaEr48 (talk) 18:16, 29 July 2018 (UTC)

In addition, it would be useful to know who the users are at the Indonesian end -- whether they are Indonesians, or are foreign users who are living in or visiting Indonesia. It would even be interesting to know how many views are from Bali alone because many foreign visitors to Bali probably access Wikipedia while they are visiting. Pmccawley (talk) 22:07, 29 July 2018 (UTC)

Based on Tourism in Indonesia there are about 10M foreign tourist in Indonesia or 4% from total population, so it doesn't have that much impact. Articles in id.wiki mostly are translated from en.wiki, there are very few editors that add original content. I have a theory that the number of a language speakers (in Internet) is proportional to the quality of its languange in Wikipedia. Hddty. (talk) 04:06, 1 August 2018 (UTC)

@Hddty: And 10M is an annual number, not the number of tourists at a given time. If (for example) on average they stay about a week out of a year, then you have to divide by 52, which makes the number even lower. So yeah, I don't think tourist would make any significant dent in the traffic pattern. HaEr48 (talk) 21:55, 3 August 2018 (UTC)

Historically the early years/stages of this Indonesian project had very few Indonesians actually editing (it is reverse now) and it was mainly non Indonesian editors. Now the cohort of this project are Indonesian with good english skills.

In the early days there were many Indonesian editors whose english simply was not up to scratch to edit here. They gave up in frustration (although a few still try to edit and have to be carefully edited after their edits).

One theory is that significant numbers of Indonesians either edit or read english wikipedia to help learn english.

Also some information on this project is limited to a large number of literally vacuous stubs - information absent items with simply recognition that something exists, with no coherent encyclopedia article content with it.

The point that HaEr48 makes about information in id wikipedia, compared to en wikipedia is one that reflects a complex issue of how and where the original information comes from. That needs to be dealt with at some stage.

The quality of information about Bali topics, for example, is abysmally poor and out of date, and if visitors visiting Bali took their understanding of wikipedia from the quality or depth of articles about Bali, the impression would be of something that got forgotten from the early days of the internet. If anyone actually took this project seriously to update and improve - it would be a cleanup drive of all Bali articles.

That said, the current cohort of the Indonesian project - mainly in Indonesia - have done very good work and are to be commended on their sustaining the project, past its initial stages, and into a more promising future, after the dropping away of the earlier crowd who have moved on with real life issues now taking up their time. I think it is something quite valuable to have had a group who started of the basics of the project, and now another generation of younger and in the main Indonesian editors to keep it going. (Hoping that doesnt sound too much like a new order speech... pidato pidato dan lain)

JarrahTree 00:55, 16 October 2018 (UTC)

RfC on election/referendum naming format

An RfC on moving the year from the end to the start of article titles (e.g. South African general election, 2019 to 2019 South African general election) has been reopened for further comment, including on whether a bot could be used move the articles if it closed in favour of the change: Wikipedia talk:Naming conventions (government and legislation)#Proposed change to election/referendum naming format. Cheers, Number 5 7 15:36, 20 October 2018 (UTC)

Huge unsourced additions to provinces

In the past week or so, Cal1407 had added massive amounts of prose to several articles about provinces - e.g. [2], [3], [4]. All the additions are quite poor in terms of both sourcing and inline citations. Before this becomes an edit war, I'd rather bring this up to other editors to help ensure that these edits - and the editor - does not make WP:Indonesia articles even worse in referencing than it already is. Juxlos (talk) 19:23, 22 November 2018 (UTC)

@Juxlos: the WP:UNSOURCED policy is clear about this: "Any material lacking a reliable source directly supporting it may be removed and should not be restored without an inline citation to a reliable source." If Cal1407 keeps restoring contested material, get admin involvement at WP:ANI. --HyperGaruda (talk) 06:12, 23 November 2018 (UTC)

@Juxlos: @HyperGaruda: I shall take upmost responsiblity for whatever I have done for the past few days. If my edits is against Wikipedia policy and guidelines, then please proceed to remove them. Please note that I do not intend to do an edit war and create mischievs and I only intend to develop articles relating to Indonesia. Lastly, I would like to apologize to members of the WikiProject Indonesia and other people who I have bothered. If I got caught repeating doing these things, then please proceed to report me to the admin. Thanks. Cal1407 (talk) 07:33, 23 November 2018 (UTC)

@Cal1407: Please just source things before you add them - otherwise, where else would you have gotten the information in the first place? Indonesian Wikipedia is not a source I would use, 98% of the time, definitely. Juxlos (talk) 07:35, 23 November 2018 (UTC)

@Juxlos: Sadly, yes. I used the Indonesian Wikipedia as a source. I copied the article to google translate and edited the grammar a bit. Cal1407 (talk) 07:57, 23 November 2018 (UTC)

re-visiting

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Indonesia/Archive_8#RFC:_MOS_for_Indonesia_articles_and_scripts

this is now happening again - JarrahTree 01:10, 11 February 2019 (UTC)

WP 1.0 Bot Beta

Hello! Your WikiProject has been selected to participate in the WP 1.0 Bot rewrite beta. This means that, starting in the next few days or weeks, your assessment tables will be updated using code in the new bot, codenamed Lucky. You can read more about this change on the Wikipedia 1.0 Editorial team page. Thanks! audiodude (talk) 06:47, 27 February 2019 (UTC)

Tourism in Indonesia

Separate article for statistics - the statistics section is so regularly edit warred - proposal at Tourism in Indonesia talk page. JarrahTree 09:01, 9 March 2019 (UTC)

Naming conventions for deputy/vice/lieutenant governor

So basically the current state of affairs is that the 3 terms are used interchangably in Indonesian politician articles e.g. Basuki Tjahaja Purnama vs Muzakir Manaf vs Rano Karno. I think it would be best to standardize everything. Also, I prefer the term vice. Juxlos (talk) 09:22, 27 February 2019 (UTC)

The Jakarta Post seems to prefer "deputy governor" - a Google for "Jakarta post" "deputy governor" returns 20,300 hits, while "Jakarta post" "vice governor" returns 7,900 (mostly older articles). The story is similar with "Tempo" - 109,000 for "deputy" v 49,000 for "vice". "Lieutenant governor" seems to be mostly used for Stamford Raffles. In my opinion we should stick to "deputy governor" (and "vice-president"). Davidelit (Talk) 04:59, 11 March 2019 (UTC)

Oei Hui-lan

I took over the abandoned review of Oei Hui-lan a while ago, but the original nominator no longer appears active. If someone from this wikiprojet wishes to respond to my comments at Talk:Oei Hui-lan/GA1 that would be great. I will probably close it as a fail if no one responds in a week or so. AIRcorn (talk) 18:26, 19 March 2019 (UTC)

For the record

For those Indonesia project watchers, earlier this year, I had a conversation with a portal maker in good faith about provinces being allocated a portal.

This is here for the record:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Miscellany_for_deletion/Portal:Jambi

(Deletion log); 06:25 Justlettersandnumbers (talk | contribs) deleted page Portal:Aceh ‎(Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion/Portal:Jambi (XFDcloser))
(Deletion log); 06:25 Justlettersandnumbers (talk | contribs) deleted page Portal:Bali ‎(Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion/Portal:Jambi (XFDcloser))
(Deletion log); 06:25 Justlettersandnumbers (talk | contribs) deleted page Portal:Banten ‎(Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion/Portal:Jambi (XFDcloser))
(Deletion log); 06:25 Justlettersandnumbers (talk | contribs) deleted page Portal:Bengkulu ‎(Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion/Portal:Jambi *(XFDcloser))
(Deletion log); 06:25 Justlettersandnumbers (talk | contribs) deleted page Portal:Central Java ‎(Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion/Portal:Jambi (XFDcloser))
(Deletion log); 06:25 Justlettersandnumbers (talk | contribs) deleted page Portal:Central Kalimantan ‎(Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion/Portal:Jambi (XFDcloser))
(Deletion log); 06:25 Justlettersandnumbers (talk | contribs) deleted page Portal:Central Sulawesi ‎(Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion/Portal:Jambi (XFDcloser))
(Deletion log); 06:25 Justlettersandnumbers (talk | contribs) deleted page Portal:East Java ‎(Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion/Portal:Jambi (XFDcloser))
(Deletion log); 06:25 Justlettersandnumbers (talk | contribs) deleted page Portal:East Kalimantan ‎(Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion/Portal:Jambi (XFDcloser))
(Deletion log); 06:25 Justlettersandnumbers (talk | contribs) deleted page Portal:East Nusa Tenggara ‎(Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion/Portal:Jambi (XFDcloser))
(Deletion log); 06:25 Justlettersandnumbers (talk | contribs) deleted page Portal:Lampung ‎(Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion/Portal:Jambi (XFDcloser))
(Deletion log); 06:25 Justlettersandnumbers (talk | contribs) deleted page Portal:Maluku (province) ‎(Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion/Portal:Jambi (XFDcloser))
(Deletion log); 06:25 Justlettersandnumbers (talk | contribs) deleted page Portal:North Kalimantan ‎(Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion/Portal:Jambi (XFDcloser))
(Deletion log); 06:25 Justlettersandnumbers (talk | contribs) deleted page Portal:North Maluku ‎(Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion/Portal:Jambi (XFDcloser))
(Deletion log); 06:25 Justlettersandnumbers (talk | contribs) deleted page Portal:North Sulawesi ‎(Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion/Portal:Jambi (XFDcloser))
(Deletion log); 06:25 Justlettersandnumbers (talk | contribs) deleted page Portal:North Sumatra ‎(Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion/Portal:Jambi (XFDcloser))
(Deletion log); 06:25 Justlettersandnumbers (talk | contribs) deleted page Portal:Papua (province) ‎(Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion/Portal:Jambi (XFDcloser))
(Deletion log); 06:25 Justlettersandnumbers (talk | contribs) deleted page Portal:Riau ‎(Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion/Portal:Jambi (XFDcloser))
(Deletion log); 06:25 Justlettersandnumbers (talk | contribs) deleted page Portal:Riau Islands ‎(Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion/Portal:Jambi (XFDcloser))
(Deletion log); 06:25 Justlettersandnumbers (talk | contribs) deleted page Portal:South Kalimantan ‎(Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion/Portal:Jambi (XFDcloser))
(Deletion log); 06:25 Justlettersandnumbers (talk | contribs) deleted page Portal:South Sulawesi ‎(Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion/Portal:Jambi (XFDcloser))
(Deletion log); 06:25 Justlettersandnumbers (talk | contribs) deleted page Portal:South Sumatra ‎(Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion/Portal:Jambi (XFDcloser))
(Deletion log); 06:25 Justlettersandnumbers (talk | contribs) deleted page Portal:Southeast Sulawesi ‎(Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion/Portal:Jambi (XFDcloser))
(Deletion log); 06:25 Justlettersandnumbers (talk | contribs) deleted page Portal:West Java ‎(Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion/Portal:Jambi (XFDcloser))
(Deletion log); 06:25 Justlettersandnumbers (talk | contribs) deleted page Portal:West Kalimantan ‎(Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion/Portal:Jambi (XFDcloser))
(Deletion log); 06:25 Justlettersandnumbers (talk | contribs) deleted page Portal:West Nusa Tenggara ‎(Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion/Portal:Jambi (XFDcloser))
(Deletion log); 06:25 Justlettersandnumbers (talk | contribs) deleted page Portal:West Papua (province) ‎(Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion/Portal:Jambi (XFDcloser))
(Deletion log); 06:25 Justlettersandnumbers (talk | contribs) deleted page Portal:West Sulawesi ‎(Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion/Portal:Jambi (XFDcloser))
(Deletion log); 06:25 Justlettersandnumbers (talk | contribs) deleted page Portal:West Sumatra ‎(Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion/Portal:Jambi (XFDcloser))
(Deletion log); 06:25 Justlettersandnumbers (talk | contribs) deleted page Portal talk:Aceh ‎(G8: Talk page of deleted page. (XFDcloser))
(Deletion log); 06:25 Justlettersandnumbers (talk | contribs) deleted page Portal talk:Bali ‎(G8: Talk page of deleted page. (XFDcloser))
(Deletion log); 06:25 Justlettersandnumbers (talk | contribs) deleted page Portal talk:Banten ‎(G8: Talk page of deleted page. (XFDcloser))
(Deletion log); 06:25 Justlettersandnumbers (talk | contribs) deleted page Portal talk:Bengkulu ‎(G8: Talk page of deleted page. (XFDcloser))
(Deletion log); 06:25 Justlettersandnumbers (talk | contribs) deleted page Portal talk:Central Java ‎(G8: Talk page of deleted page. (XFDcloser))
(Deletion log); 06:25 Justlettersandnumbers (talk | contribs) deleted page Portal talk:Central Kalimantan ‎(G8: Talk page of deleted page. (XFDcloser))
(Deletion log); 06:25 Justlettersandnumbers (talk | contribs) deleted page Portal talk:Central Sulawesi ‎(G8: Talk page of deleted page. (XFDcloser))
(Deletion log); 06:25 Justlettersandnumbers (talk | contribs) deleted page Portal talk:East Java ‎(G8: Talk page of deleted page. (XFDcloser))
(Deletion log); 06:25 Justlettersandnumbers (talk | contribs) deleted page Portal talk:East Kalimantan ‎(G8: Talk page of deleted page. (XFDcloser))
(Deletion log); 06:25 Justlettersandnumbers (talk | contribs) deleted page Portal talk:East Nusa Tenggara ‎(G8: Talk page of deleted page. (XFDcloser))
(Deletion log); 06:25 Justlettersandnumbers (talk | contribs) deleted page Portal talk:Lampung ‎(G8: Talk page of deleted page. (XFDcloser))
(Deletion log); 06:25 Justlettersandnumbers (talk | contribs) deleted page Portal talk:Maluku (province) ‎(G8: Talk page of deleted page. (XFDcloser))
(Deletion log); 06:25 Justlettersandnumbers (talk | contribs) deleted page Portal talk:North Kalimantan ‎(G8: Talk page of deleted page. (XFDcloser))
(Deletion log); 06:25 Justlettersandnumbers (talk | contribs) deleted page Portal talk:North Maluku ‎(G8: Talk page of deleted page. (XFDcloser))
(Deletion log); 06:25 Justlettersandnumbers (talk | contribs) deleted page Portal talk:North Sulawesi ‎(G8: Talk page of deleted page. (XFDcloser))
(Deletion log); 06:25 Justlettersandnumbers (talk | contribs) deleted page Portal talk:North Sumatra ‎(G8: Talk page of deleted page. (XFDcloser))
(Deletion log); 06:25 Justlettersandnumbers (talk | contribs) deleted page Portal talk:Papua (province) ‎(G8: Talk page of deleted page. (XFDcloser))
(Deletion log); 06:25 Justlettersandnumbers (talk | contribs) deleted page Portal talk:Riau ‎(G8: Talk page of deleted page. (XFDcloser))
(Deletion log); 06:25 Justlettersandnumbers (talk | contribs) deleted page Portal talk:Riau Islands ‎(G8: Talk page of deleted page. (XFDcloser))
(Deletion log); 06:25 Justlettersandnumbers (talk | contribs) deleted page Portal talk:South Kalimantan ‎(G8: Talk page of deleted page. (XFDcloser))
(Deletion log); 06:25 Justlettersandnumbers (talk | contribs) deleted page Portal talk:South Sulawesi ‎(G8: Talk page of deleted page. (XFDcloser))
(Deletion log); 06:25 Justlettersandnumbers (talk | contribs) deleted page Portal talk:South Sumatra ‎(G8: Talk page of deleted page. (XFDcloser))
(Deletion log); 06:25 Justlettersandnumbers (talk | contribs) deleted page Portal talk:Southeast Sulawesi ‎(G8: Talk page of deleted page. (XFDcloser))
(Deletion log); 06:25 Justlettersandnumbers (talk | contribs) deleted page Portal talk:West Java ‎(G8: Talk page of deleted page. (XFDcloser))
(Deletion log); 06:25 Justlettersandnumbers (talk | contribs) deleted page Portal talk:West Kalimantan ‎(G8: Talk page of deleted page. (XFDcloser))
(Deletion log); 06:25 Justlettersandnumbers (talk | contribs) deleted page Portal talk:West Nusa Tenggara ‎(G8: Talk page of deleted page. (XFDcloser))
(Deletion log); 06:25 Justlettersandnumbers (talk | contribs) deleted page Portal talk:West Papua (province) ‎(G8: Talk page of deleted page. (XFDcloser))
(Deletion log); 06:25 Justlettersandnumbers (talk | contribs) deleted page Portal talk:West Sulawesi ‎(G8: Talk page of deleted page. (XFDcloser))
(Deletion log); 06:25 Justlettersandnumbers (talk | contribs) deleted page Portal talk:West Sumatra ‎(G8: Talk page of deleted page. (XFDcloser))

No further comment, the evidence is provided without fear or favour even sense of humour (it is April the First) JarrahTree 22:53, 31 March 2019 (UTC)

No longer April the first

The portal issue still continues https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Miscellany_for_deletion/Portal:Java JarrahTree 14:09, 12 May 2019 (UTC)

Abandoned articles

Hi, In order to more efficiently focus (human) resources in the Indonesia Project, would it be an idea to signify the de facto abandonment of certain Indonesia articles by labeling them as abandoned by the Indonesia Project? I'm thinking in particular of the articles on Indonesian airports, TV stations and football clubs, where the sheer number of uncited, unreferenced and POV edits, often by IP editors, makes it impractical to maintain standards. I guess the easiest way would be either to create a category, or to remove the Project tag from these articles. Any suggestions for any additions to the list? Davidelit (Talk) 03:16, 23 May 2019 (UTC)

This is very much a glass half full versus glass half empty topic. There eare qually good arguments for both sides. It is like the personality types who actually designate their on wiki preferences - they are either deletionsists or inclusionists - for an older view or look at these two philosophies (not updated) - see Deletionism_and_inclusionism_in_Wikipedia

The argument for keeping uncited, and quite poor quality stubs - is that someone will come along some day and improve/add to the stub - very close to what anthropologists observed in Cargo_cults in New Guinea.

The argument for deleting - is well displayed in the slaughter of portals just recently, regardless of the arguments for or against.

The original intention of allowing inadequate stubs, was in the relatively naive hope that there would be editors who might follow after the original creation of the stubs. It has not happened in a broad scale at all.

One possible remedy is to suggest that the playing with tv stations, airports and football clubs could be averted if only by one or more admins being indonesian project focused - we have lost more (interested admins) than we had some 5 years ago - and simply work on blanket protection, but broader wikipedia wide admins and others see protection as something temporary.

Another remedy or response to the suggestion, is to wait for and hope that a number of regular editors might turn up and offer their suggestions.

The regular and redundant argument we dont have what the Indonesian language wikipedia has - is really suggesting that we develop towards having the same items - many having literally no actual notability or credence other than to alert the wider wikipedia community that something exists - without anything that comes up to a WP:V or WP:N standard to actually qualify for reasons of inclusion.

Although in the previous section of this noticeboard, there is the item about what https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Notability_(geographic_features)#Geographic_regions,_areas_and_places might have in its favour, the argument requires careful examination as to what it might mean for this project.

There is no doubt what david has brought up is something to consider, as to whether we have a community of editors prepared to discuss and establish some consensus as to what might be best for this project, is another thing. JarrahTree 04:24, 23 May 2019 (UTC)

Creating kecamatan stubs

Indonesian Wikipedia has articles for all of the kecamatan (subdistricts) and even many of the desa (villages), but not English Wikipedia. I want to expand especially for Papua. Can we use a bot, or do we have to do everything one by one? Sagotreespirit (talk) 00:09, 19 May 2019 (UTC)

It's a bit finicky for stubs - since there won't be much information; plus you're going to probably create tons of duplicates with some three-liner stubs which exist for some reason. Maybe semi-automated, if at all, would be the best idea. Just be sure to not copy+paste idWiki as their standards seem to be lower, so to say. Juxlos (talk) 00:14, 19 May 2019 (UTC)

Very strongly discouraged - almost certainly 80 to 90 percent of districts and villages are not inherently notable for naming and identification in English Wikipedia - although there is one unholy mess of districts for Indonesia. Tidying that up is one thing - creating new items is very strongly discouraged.

Indonesian wikipedia and english wikipedia have very different ways of looking at lower level subdivisions. There is literally no resources easily available online or in written sources in english that could substantiate any level of WP:V with WP:RS that could justify creation of stubs that would pass WP:N for general standards for english wikipedia.

Under no circumstances start, without waiting for at least some other editors to comment.

This has been through before (in this archive) with a different cohort of editors who realised that district lists and names are not what Wikipedia english is WP:ABOUT. JarrahTree 10:39, 19 May 2019 (UTC)

Note that per WP:GEOLAND, if BPS says they exist (kecamatan or village), they're presumed notable. Just that bot-articles are frowned upon in English Wiki. Juxlos (talk) 11:51, 19 May 2019 (UTC)

That is perhaps somewhat far fetched to expect that english wikipedia really needs an article for every village and kec in Indonesia - and I would strongly oppose that - if you understand how many useless one line stubs about places that will never have any WP:RS would go against what WP:ABOUT regardless of Geoland and BPS JarrahTree 14:49, 19 May 2019 (UTC)

Juxlos is right about their presumed notability. Personally, I'd prefer you make lists of kecamatans and desas in their parent administrative division instead of creating one-liner permastubs. If you really want to, you could make redirects of each kecamatan and desa. --HyperGaruda (talk) 10:06, 25 May 2019 (UTC)

Indonesian cities and regencies

I have created Indonesian cities and regencies blank map based on File:Electoral Districts Indonesia DPR 2019.svg with update on new city/regency. Maybe it can be useful for this project. Hddty. (talk) 17:19, 26 May 2019 (UTC)

Thank you! Davidelit (Talk) 01:31, 31 May 2019 (UTC)

What was the source for File:Electoral Districts Indonesia DPR 2019.svg? Anybody know? @Juxlos: maybe? Bennylin (talk) 15:23, 5 June 2019 (UTC)

I found a .geojson file for Kabupaten which I converted to a .svg file. It was like a year ago so I'll have to dig around a bit to find out where I got it from again. Juxlos (talk) 15:26, 5 June 2019 (UTC)

A rose by any other name

I was drawn to the article Talang Tuo inscription by the lengthy quotation showing up as misspelled (assuming English) words. I'd love to mark those quotations with {{lang}} but "Old Malay" is not a known language code. I'll be doing something else.

But in looking around I got confused by the name "Talang Tuo". The text and title was changed by one editor in April 2018. And by the same editor over at the Indonesian wiki also in April 2018.

Searching with Google finds more "Talang Tuwo" than "Talang Tuo". And a number of "Talang Tuo" hits are copies of the renamed Wikipedia article. Searching for "Talang Tuwo" seems to find more occurrences in Malay scholarly texts? Lastly, searching for "Talang Tuwo" on English Wikipedia finds more than double the hits of "Talang Tuo"

I am uncertain, but it seems like the 'Tuwo' -> 'Tuo' change was not needed, and just one editor's opinion. Can you find something trustworthy to rely on regarding this name? Or point me to a better place to ask this question? Shenme (talk) 04:46, 30 June 2019 (UTC)

@Shenme: I am just guessing now, but considering how the inscription was discovered during the time of the Dutch East Indies, I imagine it was spelled the Dutch way at first, i.e. Talang Toewo, and there are a few attesting hits. After Indonesian spelling reforms, the name should have become Talang Tuwo. However, tuo and tuwo are pronounced exactly the same and I think the "w" was only added originally to clarify the pronunciation in Dutch (toeo: toe-o or to-eo? "oe" is a digraph representing the "oo" sound in English by the way). Modern Indonesian would not need the extra "w" anymore. If I am not mistaken, Sumatran variants of Malay tend to turn certain standard Malay "a" sounds into "o" sounds, so the standard Malay/Indonesian way of writing would be Talang Tua. To me, Tuwo seems like something halfway between proper Dutch and proper modern Malay. --HyperGaruda (talk) 17:11, 30 June 2019 (UTC)

administrative regions of Indonesia

As an on-going discussion over the years, the development of this projects' standards regarding administrative divisions, and nomenclature -

the latest installment = https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Kecamatans_of_Indonesia always good to see how things like this arise again and again, at least there is life in the project yet. JarrahTree 00:35, 30 August 2019 (UTC)

standardising ethnic group terminology

Please note that a discussion about some means of standardising terminology in this project has been started at:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Ethnic_groups_in_Indonesia#Terminology

It is well introduced, and well considered of the issues, it should be checked carefully for any page lurkers here interested in standardising usages, a bug that seems to to exist in an ongoing manner in this project... JarrahTree 13:43, 7 September 2019 (UTC)

New Page Reviewer

Many new pages are being created around Indonesian topics. Members of this project with experience around notability, deletion, and nurturing new users are encouraged to consider applying for New Page Reviewer. The New Page Patrol community is a friendly one and we're always looking for more talented editors. If you are interested but think you might not be ready consider enrolling in New Page Patrol School. If you have any questions, I serve as coordinator and would be happy to answer them - please ping me here or drop by my talk page. Best, Barkeep49 (talk) 21:52, 26 October 2019 (UTC)

Request for information on WP1.0 web tool

Hello and greetings from the maintainers of the WP 1.0 Bot! As you may or may not know, we are currently involved in an overhaul of the bot, in order to make it more modern and maintainable. As part of this process, we will be rewriting the web tool that is part of the project. You might have noticed this tool if you click through the links on the project assessment summary tables.

We'd like to collect information on how the current tool is used by....you! How do you yourself and the other maintainers of your project use the web tool? Which of its features do you need? How frequently do you use these features? And what features is the tool missing that would be useful to you? We have collected all of these questions at this Google form where you can leave your response. Walkerma (talk) 04:24, 27 October 2019 (UTC)

Source check for GA requested

I'm reviewing 3rd Congress of the Indonesian Democratic Party but know nothing of sources, would someone from this project be able to help me re the verifiable criteria? Kingsif (talk) 22:11, 15 January 2020 (UTC)

(If you could also help rewrite it in English, I'm sure the creator would appreciate it) Kingsif (talk) 22:30, 15 January 2020 (UTC)

Swietenia Puspa Lestari

Please can someone look at the Indonesian-langauge news items found by Google, and see if they can be used on Draft:Swietenia Puspa Lestari, in order that the article can be restored? Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 21:57, 27 January 2020 (UTC)

Wikipedia:WikiProject Asia/The 10,000 Challenge

Hi, we currently don't have any articles coming in regularly for Indonesia. Anybody who is actively working on articles please add them to the challenge and get that Indonesian flag up there!♦ Dr. Blofeld 13:52, 1 February 2020 (UTC)

I know Juxlos regularly writes new articles about Indonesia. HaEr48 (talk) 17:58, 1 February 2020 (UTC)

Dr. Blofeld and HaEr48 - should be enough Indonesia articles for a bit, yeah? Juxlos (talk) 19:52, 1 February 2020 (UTC)

@Juxlos: Amazing :) HaEr48 (talk) 20:04, 1 February 2020 (UTC)

Indonesian vs Bahasa guideline

I added the preference to use "Indonesian" vs "Bahasa" in our guideline [5]. I hope this is not controversial and I think this reflects the current consensus and custom. Feel free to modify it if needed. HaEr48 (talk) 18:00, 1 February 2020 (UTC)

Thank you for that edit. It is a helpful clarification for editors here, especially for potential Indonesian newcomers to our WikiProject. There are truly more bahasa in this world than Bahasa Indonesia. :) - Darwinek (talk) 22:03, 3 February 2020 (UTC)

@HaEr48: Many thanks also from me! Agree fully. This kind of usage is limited to certain circles (mostly expats and their local "entourage"), and sounds cringeworthy to many pepole. –Austronesier (talk) 09:02, 4 February 2020 (UTC)

@HaEr48: Once we're at it, can you kindly also have a look at my (way too lengthy, sorry!) discussion in Talk:Ethnic groups in Indonesia#Terminology. The bottomline is: 1. Only use long-standing English names for languages and ethnic groups, and avoid neologisms like "Bataknese", Dayaknese", "Tolakinese". If there is no long-standing English name, use the Indonesian name without modification or creative anglicization. 2. Use long-standing English constituent order e.g. in "Toba Batak", "Ngaju Dayak". Can we also add this to the MoS? –Austronesier (talk) 09:24, 4 February 2020 (UTC)

AfD discussion

I have proposed an AfD discussion for Criticism of Joko Widodo. Please see Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Criticism of Joko Widodo and weigh in on the discussion. Juxlos (talk) 03:08, 23 February 2020 (UTC)

thanks

I hadnt expected such a positive and thoughtful reaction here in project space - thanks to those who have commented. I have no problems with whatever anyone wants to do with reducing the photo galleries - what had bothered me in the past was where the lede sentence and info box carried local (not national) scripts in articles like https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Surakarta JarrahTree 10:43, 19 April 2020 (UTC)

Its like 2006 all over again. :) Those were the days...we even made Indonesia a feature article! --Merbabu (talk) 11:57, 19 April 2020 (UTC)

Province infobox photos...

Hi there - is this the best place to discuss the ridiculous number of photos the Indonesia proinces seem to have?

6 is too many, now people are shoe-horning in up to 9! Indeed, maybe we shoudln't have them. The info boxes look more like Tourism Board promitions. This is a ridiculous number of photos].

I just did a random search of 3 equivalents in Australia, USA, and Germany - and 3 out of 3 have no photos in their boxes. Looks much better. refer:

I think it's time we grew up, got serious and had either 1 photos, or even no photos in the infobox. --Merbabu (talk) 03:34, 19 April 2020 (UTC)

@Merbabu: not 9 images or what, before that there were many provinces that had more than 6 images. but I adjusted it to 5 lines — Preceding unsigned comment added by 118.136.116.158 (talk • contribs) 03:43, 19 April 2020 (UTC)

You added two photos to the South Sumatra box to make it 8 images. But that's beside the point. I'm suggesting that 6 is too many, let alone 8. Most mature state/province articles have no photos in infoboxes. --Merbabu (talk) 03:49, 19 April 2020 (UTC)

Agree, aside from Jakarta (more a city really) and maybe Bali and Yogyakarta, none of the provinces should have images. I will pull a WP:BOLD and nuke the pictures, if to at least trigger discussion. Juxlos (talk) 04:57, 19 April 2020 (UTC)

@Merbabu:, Agree with your proposal to simply remove all photos on infobox. Refer to your examples, whereas New South Wales use Template:Infobox Australia state or territory, Texas use Template:Infobox U.S. state, and both of those infoboxes didn't have specific parameter for photo. Meanwhile, Bavaria use Template:Infobox settlement and I believe all indonesian provinces pages also uses this template, this template originally to be used for settlements (such as city) and it has a paramater accomodate photos |image_skyline=. Therefore I propose to make specific infobox for indonesian provinces (just as US states and Australian states) that didn't have specific parameter for photo. Ckfasdf (talk) 06:29, 19 April 2020 (UTC)

I think we should focus on the end result - ie, just because there is a parameter in a template, we don't have to use it. But happy to support an Indonesian specific template without templates. Whatever delivers the desired output. :) --Merbabu (talk) 09:42, 19 April 2020 (UTC)

@Ckfasdf: - OK, so i tried to implement it at Aceh with the existing template. It's ok with the existing template, but I now agree with you...a new template would be better. happy to let you create a new one...maybe you could choose an existing one to build on for Indonesia such as the one's you mention above? --Merbabu (talk) 10:33, 19 April 2020 (UTC)

Hi again - thanks for your input (and below). I've just pasted two Bali info boxs into this section as an example for reference - ie, the existing, and a proposed. This can be applied to all provinces. I suggest the following changes

Keep - ie, what's really important

map
Capital
Area
population
demographics (selected items only - suggesting ethnic group, religion - but put language into main article)
governor (but delete vice governor)

Remove - ie, what's just trivial and/or promotional...

and it can go in the main article if relevant

photos - it looks like a tourist brochure
mottos - government promotional stuff
nickanmes - again, in the main article, not in the infobox.
vehicle registration - really? is this key to understanding a province???
vice governor
language

I think the second one is better - key info only. not overweight and bloated and it doesn't take over half the page. --Merbabu (talk) 08:54, 19 April 2020 (UTC)

IMO, Excessive photo is the only problem. Current infobox refer to Template:Infobox settlement and only city pages that use |image_skyline= not higher subdivision. I don't really have issue with other parameter as other province/states/canton elsewhere also uses them. But if we agree to replace or even make infobox for indonesian province, maybe we can look up Template:Infobox Australia state or territory or Template:Infobox U.S. state as reference. Ckfasdf (talk) 10:14, 19 April 2020 (UTC)

For the time being, just nuked photos, flag (they don't actually exist, it's a Wiki synthesis), and motto/nicknames. Juxlos (talk) 11:22, 19 April 2020 (UTC)

FWIW, provincial flags do exist (for practical reasons, how do you hoist a seal?), but the choice of the background color is largely arbitrary, so the current flags used here are neither wrong, nor correct. The motttos are official, and an integral part of the seal. But I'm neutral about these two minor things. –Austronesier (talk) 11:49, 19 April 2020 (UTC)

Juxlos, Austronesier Provincial flags do not have any legal status in Indonesia. They are not even used anywhere, except in sport events. For simple checking, just go visit each of the provinces' website, and you wouldn't find any of those flags. I believe we should remove them from the infoboxes. Anyway, congrats for this images removal consensus, the infoboxes really look neat now. Bluesatellite (talk) 12:10, 19 April 2020 (UTC)

major issues

Infoboxes are rampant with over-done material and over-usage of too many photos is just one of the issues:-

Unreadable scripts in (1) lead sentences, then repeated in (2) info-boxes

This is english wikipedia but there are javanese and other scripts that are utilised -

I can imagine the average reader cannot have the scripts in their useage let alone understand

Meaningless photos - nothing that can relate to the location or area

Then there is an un-reviewed issue of size and 'overdone' graphs

Over-large articles with WP:NOTGALLERY and WP:SEAOFBLUE issues - such as Jakarta...

Many football articles have WP:FLAGCRUFT and WP:SEAOFBLUE well beyond reasonable accepted usage

However most perpatrators of these issues either have no sense of english language, or otherwise are defensive of their application of eccentric understandings of what WP:ABOUT and WP:NOT implies. JarrahTree 03:57, 19 April 2020 (UTC)

wow - exactly my thinking. Indeed, the main defence seems to be "but what about X page, they do it". --Merbabu (talk) 04:18, 19 April 2020 (UTC)

PS, there's nothing wrong with showing regional scripts and language, but these should be lower down in the article where relevant. Not in the first line or the top of the info box. Even before we've defined the article, the lead sentence can often have English, then Indonesian, then Javanese, then Jawi script, then Chinese script, then various pronounciation guides...then we define the topic.

Unfortunately, short of placing extended-confirmed restrictions on every single Indonesian province/city articles, this WP simply doesn't have the manpower to really do much about it. Stopping 10 guys trying to plug tourism in their locale per regency by spamming photos/folks who zealously spam regional script everywhere is a lot of time wasted fighting a continuous tide that can be instead invested on new articles. Juxlos (talk) 04:50, 19 April 2020 (UTC)

Agree with Juxlos, I don't think it was wrong to show regional scripts or language, even in the leads or infobox... It was commonly found on other pages, such as Bhutan, São Paulo (state), and Wuhan (random examples). So, it was OK as long as that scripts/language are commonly used on that province... (for example, arabic or chinese script should not be used on Central Java). Ckfasdf (talk) 06:36, 19 April 2020 (UTC)

There seems to 4 or more dedicated editors in general agreement here. Between us we could implement it and see what happens. --Merbabu (talk) 09:56, 19 April 2020 (UTC)

Agree to remove per default all photos and non-Latin scripts from the infobox, and also non-Latin scripts from the lead. On a case-by-case basis, we could insert scripts if there is consensus and a good reason for it, e.g. if the regional script is used on official symbols such seals (I don't know if any province does that). We also don't need non-official names of provinces in regional languages, even if these are majority languages.

@Ckfasdf: The major difference with Wuhan and Bhutan is, those are the scripts of the national languages, and the the default way that every one in that country will spell out these places. In Indonesia, only the Latin-script Indonesian name has such a status, so adding Jawa Timur to East Jawa is important and obligatory, but not "Jåwå Wétan" etc.

And from what I can tell by the sock smell of these IPs, we are dealing with maximally 2 or 3 long-blocked individuals who waste our time with their antics. –Austronesier (talk) 08:56, 19 April 2020 (UTC)

There seems to 4 or more dedicated editors in general agreement here. Between us we could implement it and see what happens. --Merbabu (talk) 09:56, 19 April 2020 (UTC)

@Austronesier:, maybe Wuhan and Bhutan is not good examples for that point and I also understand your point. But, let's take a another look of other example such as : Negeri Sembilan or other malaysian states (afaik only malaysian languange is official there, but the infobox also have chinese/tamil script). So, i don't think it was really wrong to put non-latin script there.but then again, I'm OK if the community consensus it to take out those scripts. Ckfasdf (talk) 10:13, 19 April 2020 (UTC)

A tiny bit of clarification on the use of non-Latin scripts: romanisation of non-Latin scripts is not always perfect. I'm thinking of Chinese at the moment, where multiple different characters can represent the same sound and thus the same Latin transliteration. To rule out any confusion, the original script is presented alongside its romanisation. I do agree however, that such is not the case in the situations described above. I think the Malaysian example might be a style copy of a Singaporean article, where Chinese and Tamil actually are official languages. --HyperGaruda (talk) 20:29, 21 April 2020 (UTC)

Photos

So I've started removing the photos infoboxes - i must say some are very beautiful. We should look at incorporating some into the main body of the articles. --Merbabu (talk) 11:51, 19 April 2020 (UTC)

Agree, useful material should be kept, and placed in an apt (sub-)section which has a relation to content displayed in the picture. –Austronesier (talk) 11:57, 19 April 2020 (UTC)

Same goes for gallery sections, which are image magnets. Better disperse 'em throughout the body near relevant text. --HyperGaruda (talk) 20:40, 21 April 2020 (UTC)

Sourcing help required

Greetings from WP:WPTC. Recently, Hurricanehink began an article on the 1973 Flores cyclone, which is regarded as the deadliest tropical cyclone on record in the Southern Hemisphere. We're struggling to find information in English and none of our project members are proficient in Indonesian. If anyone can provide us with routes to look for information or sources it would be greatly appreciated! Thanks in advance, ~ Cyclonebiskit (chat) 05:12, 23 April 2020 (UTC)

50,000 Destubbing Challenge Focus of the Week

Hello there. This is an invitation to join the 50,000 Destubbing Challenge Focus of the Week. £250 (c. $310) is being given away in May, June and July with £20 worth of prizes to give away every week for most articles destubbed. Each week there is a different region of focus, including one week dedicated to South-South East Asia, which includes Indonesia, though half the prize will still be rewarded for articles on any subject. There's a potential £120 to be won in total for destubbing on any subject or region of your choice. Sign up if you want to contribute at least one of the weeks or support the idea! † Encyclopædius 11:54, 28 April 2020 (UTC)

"Province"

How could we change the word "Province" under the actual name to be "Province of Indonesia"? or would we need an Indonesian provinces template for that? --Merbabu (talk) 12:11, 19 April 2020 (UTC)

No need for new template. Just change parameter |settlement_type= from [[provinces of Indonesia|Province]] to [[provinces of Indonesia|Province of Indonesia]]. Ckfasdf (talk) 01:29, 20 April 2020 (UTC)

Thanks! It works! --Merbabu (talk) 08:41, 23 April 2020 (UTC)

I believe this "of Indonesia" is unnecessary. Per Template:Infobox settlement, Country is listed on |subdivision_type=, not on |settlement_type=. And please look at the common usage in other similar articles in Wikipedia such as Virginia (only State, not U.S. state), Kanagawa (only Prefecture, not Prefecture of Japan), Guangdong (only Province, not Province of China), Antique (only Province, not Province of the Philippines, and so on. Bluesatellite (talk) 07:31, 24 April 2020 (UTC)

It needs to be clear, up front. And just because a template parameter allows something, doesn't mean it's a good idea...I'm focussed on the result, not on the parameter options. Your only argument against this is "but other articles". --Merbabu (talk) 08:27, 24 April 2020 (UTC)

@Merbabu: Because every person has their "own" taste and idea of what considered good or "clear". You may think it's a good idea, but somebody else probably thinks otherwise. That's why we stick to what generally used, in this case is the template parameter and practice in most articles. Bluesatellite (talk) 13:27, 28 April 2020 (UTC)

"but other articles" is a valid argument because it means consistency with other articles. In this case I think you need to establish consensus for all articles using {{Infobox settlement}}. Hddty (talk) 15:23, 28 April 2020 (UTC)

Translation of "turun ranjang"

Levirate marriage#Indonesia states:

According to the Karo people's adat, polygyny is permitted. A study of Kutagamber, a Karo village in the 1960s, noted one instance of the practice, as a result of levirate. The Indonesian term for it is "turun ranjang" (lit.: get down of one's bed).

Is this just a typo and the actual translation is "get down off one's bed," or is this just wrong? There's a citation, but it's just to an Indonesian dictionary and doesn't give any English translation. -Elmer Clark (talk) 00:34, 29 April 2020 (UTC)

I don't think it's possible to precisely translate it because it's an idiom and its structure is not typical. Normally, "to get off one's bed" would be "turun dari ranjang"; "turun ranjang" can have other sense, e.g. to downgrade one's bed (similar to "turun pangkat" or "turun kelas"). The Indonesian dictionary cited simply defines "turun ranjang" as "marrying one's wife's sisters or relatives because one's wife is dead". HaEr48 (talk) 01:15, 29 April 2020 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Indonesia-related articles - Javanese place and personal names

Hi all! The spelling guide has a paragraph that currently reads:

In Javanese, the letter "a" is sometimes pronounced like "o" in the final syllables of words, and the words are sometimes spelled that way. The spelling with "a" should be retained (e.g. Surabaya, not Suroboyo; Gajah Mada, not Gajah Modo), unless the spelling with 'o' is more common in English-language documents (e.g. Solo River, not Sala River; Joko Widodo, not Jaka Widada). The variation should be noted in the article.

In the case of contemporary personal and place names, this is nice to mention, and in the case of "Jaka Widada" even a bit weird, unless meant as re-transliteration of the name if written in Javanese script. But every place name has an official spelling, and every person has an official spelling per birth certificate and KTP. So there is no variation in such cases. For historical figures and topics relating to Javanese culture, the general principles WP:COMMONNAME and WP:ENGLISH apply. So would like to change the wording to:

In Javanese, the letter "a" is sometimes pronounced like "o" in the final syllables of words, and this is often reflected in the spelling. In place names or contemporary personal names, the official spelling is binding, regardless of the Javanese pronunciation or spelling convention, e.g. Surabaya, not "Suroboyo"; but Purwokerto, not "jv:Purwakerta"). For historical figures and topics relating to Javanese culture, the general principles WP:COMMONNAME and WP:ENGLISH apply (e.g. Gajah Mada, not "Gajah Modo"; but Diponegoro, not "jv:Dipanegara"). If the spelling varies depending on source, this variation should be noted in the article.

Objections, suggestions? –Austronesier (talk) 15:07, 28 April 2020 (UTC)

Suggest adding a counter example to Diponegoro, e.g. Gajah Mada. Otherwise I agree with your version. HaEr48 (talk) 15:25, 28 April 2020 (UTC)

@HaEr48: I have adjusted the text. I'll replace it next week, but wait for potential input from other projecteers. –Austronesier (talk) 13:48, 30 April 2020 (UTC)

Sundanese script#History and standardization

Hi all, is there anybody knowledgeable out there to disentangle the section Sundanese script#History and standardization into a "History" and a "Standardization" part? As it reads now, it made me wonder whether Wikipedia already existed in the Orde Baru era :( –Austronesier (talk) 10:35, 1 May 2020 (UTC)

@Austronesier: I think that section is pretty much just translation of chapter 3 of this book, we may need revamp entire section. Ckfasdf (talk) 10:48, 5 May 2020 (UTC)

@Ckfasdf: Good find! Yes, it looks pretty much like a verbatim translation, so we must remove it as a copyvio. Maybe that also holds for the next section, "Typology". The book itself—apart from the bureaucrat lingo—clearly is a valuable source for writing the article in our own words. –Austronesier (talk) 11:03, 5 May 2020 (UTC)

WP:COPYVIO always needs immediate and remorseless removal when seen - please... 11:15, 5 May 2020 (UTC)

@Austronesier:@JarrahTree: "typology" and "history and standarization" section was added 10 years ago by same person, so possibility of copyvio is very high. but since I do not have and can not install Sundanese script on my laptop, I am afraid if i edit that page I may end up ruin that page. Ckfasdf (talk) 11:46, 5 May 2020 (UTC)

Discussion notification: Nino Oktorino, Free Republic of Nias at the Reliable sources noticeboard

A discussion about an Indonesian-language source has been opened at RSN. Editors familiar with the Indonesian language, and particularly with Indonesian-language history publications, are encouraged to participate. _signed,Rosguill ^talk 23:28, 8 May 2020 (UTC)

Indonesian name sorting

Hello dear WikiProject members. I would like to ask for an advice regarding one topic, that's bugging my mind for some time - Indonesian names. As you know, unlike in Western culture, Indonesians don't have surnames. Some groups within Indonesian society, like Batak or Indonesian Christians use often family names as a last name. Legally however, that's just another name, and it does not automatically pass from parents to children. Vast majority of Indonesians though don't use family/last names at all. It is a complete freestyle without any legal rules or boundaries. Now, the question is how do we sort Indonesian people in categories on enwiki. You may notice that prominent figures like Joko Widodo or Sri Mulyani Indrawati are sorted correctly by their first name. Majority of biographical articles on Indonesians however use {{DEFAULTSORT}} to sort them by their last name. Naturally, non-Indonesian editors who have no clue about Indonesian names, assume automatically the last name is a surname. As a consequence, we are sometimes experiencing a chaos in our categories, where some people are sorted by their first name, whilst others by their last name.

I think we could get an inspiration from Icelandic people articles, look e.g. Gylfi Sigurdsson. Their articles use {{Icelandic name}} as a hatnote. The Iceland-related categories within the article are sorted by the first name, the "non-Iceland-related" categories sorted by the last name. I would agree with the same model for Indonesian people. We have {{Indonesian name}} as well.

What do you suggest, dear colleagues? Pinging active editors in Indonesian topics area: @JarrahTree:, @Juxlos:, @Austronesier:, @Raudalkhudri:, @Jeromi Mikhael:. Feel free to invite more people to the discussion. Thank you. - Darwinek (talk) 17:23, 19 January 2020 (UTC)

I think we should go strictly with the Indonesian legal definition of a personal name. From birth to death, the full name appears as an unbroken string in official documents (pun altert: the spaces inbetween are &nbsp-s). Any internal division would be arbitrary, even if the name reflects a naming tradition that uses a marga as final part of the name. Especially in the latter case, it is tempting to equate the last past of a name with a family name for sorting purposes. But I'd suggest to employ the Indonesian sorting system by default. Exceptions maybe could be made if the person has actively chosen to be sorted by anything other than the first part of their name, as many academics do when they quote their own publications. Pinging @Masjawad99. –Austronesier (talk) 18:41, 19 January 2020 (UTC)

Agree by default that full name should be used to sort rather than using last names. I'd go as far as not having exceptions if possible. I'm pretty sure that even academics who use their last names in publications, or politicians who are often mentioned by last name in the media (Yudhoyono, Widodo, ..) are still sorted by their full names in things like official name lists, phone directory, etc. HaEr48 (talk) 19:03, 19 January 2020 (UTC)

@Austronesier:, @HaEr48: Thank you for your input. Before taking any further steps in implementing any new guidelines on Indonesian name sorting, we should definitely reach a broader consensus. Should we take this discussion to some other place?--Darwinek (talk) 22:39, 23 January 2020 (UTC)

@JarrahTree:, @Juxlos:, @Austronesier:, @Raudalkhudri:, @Darwinek:: I think we should implement this as a consensus. FYI: I've been making a list of members of the parliament from 1950, which I based from this book, this book, and this book. All of this book have the same characteristics, which categorizes the names based on their origin (e.g. if the person is Bataknese, Kalimantan, etc, then the last name would be sorted, while if the person is from Java, etc, then the full name would be sorted). I've followed the sorting method from the book, but I realized that in the same list, 50 years later, this sorting method wasn't used again at all. 1999 list based on this list, click Anggota DPR for the list. It clearly shows us that there has been a change on name sorting guidelines in Indonesia from year to year.--Jeromi Mikhael (talk) 09:42, 10 May 2020 (UTC)

Regarding Sadjarwo

Hello mates, I'm currently working on an article about a minister from Indonesia, Sadjarwo Djarwonagoro. I would like to address several problems regarding this man.

Quite interesting that a man who represented the BTI (part of the Indonesian Communist Party) in the cabinets for almost 10 years survived the purges and became the member of the parliament for two times: 1, 2, and later became the rector of an university.
The link [2] that I addressed is his short biography. Compare [2] with this links: 3, 4, 5, 6, 7. [2] mentions that Sadjarwo was a former member of Muhammadiyah, something that [3] - [7] never mentions. Furthermore, 8 and 9, p. 151 or p. 8 in PDF, states that Sadjarwo entered PNI in 1957 and became the chairman of its farming organization in 1959, but the book states that Sadjarwo became a member of PNI in 1947 and became the chairman of the farming organization in 1948. Note that the birth date of Sadjarwo in [2] (3 December 1918) is different from [3] - [7] (3 December 1917).
Minor: [2] mentions the master of law title by Sadjarwo as Sadjarwo S.H., but [3] - [7] mentions the title as Mr. Sadjarwo. In 10 it was told that the title S.H. for law master was only given by the year 1963. Am I missing something here?

Which one should I trust? Should [2] be a reliable source?--Jeromi Mikhael (talk) 10:57, 24 May 2020 (UTC)

it might take something to fix the BTI article - it would help to have it with some wp;rs - as it stands it is as precarious as the quandary that you explain in point one. The documentation of the organisations before 65/66 is getting better over time in Indonesian language, dutch and english sources....

viability of sources extracted from oggle docs {apologies for pun anagram acronym) at times can be difficult to verify

there is a lot more to all of this - there is always the problem with what source can be clarified against another. JarrahTree 11:37, 24 May 2020 (UTC)

Oldest people in the world from Indonesia

Hey guys, just let you know. A few moments later I've come across shuffling an article in Indonesian Wikipedia, and I found this article. When I first saw his age, I just can't believe that this guy reached 130 years old. He was notable enough for his life to be recorded in several books: [6]; recorded in the official report of Jakarta: [7], and even he had his name entered in the Sunda encyclopedia: [8]. Unlike other figures in Indonesia which has no real track record. I believed that Falak could be entered in this list.--Jeromi Mikhael (talk) 12:24, 26 May 2020 (UTC)

The first problem is that his birth date could not be found. Although we can infer, that if Falak died at the age of 130 years old on the date 19 July 1972, his birth date was between 19 July 1841 and 19 July 1842. And since his birth year was stated to be 1258 Hijri, and the Hijri year began at 12 February 1842, we could say that his birth date was between 12 February 1842 and 19 July 1842. His grave didn't really give much info.

translation of KPLP

H guys... can you help me to translate "Kesatuan Penjagaan Laut dan Pantai Indonesia"? I don't think "Indonesian Sea and Coast Guard" is the correct/proper translation due to Indonesian Maritime Security Agency is the agency considered as Indonesian Coast Guard (see criticism subsection on Law enforcement in Indonesia#Maritime law enforcement agencies). Thx. Ckfasdf (talk) 09:07, 9 June 2020 (UTC)

@Ckfasdf: In order to avoid the impression that this is the Indonesian coast guard, you could translate it literally as "Indonesian Sea and Coast Surveillance Unit", but it looks like "Indonesia(n) Sea and Coast Guard" already functions as semi-official translation here[9]. –Austronesier (talk) 11:15, 9 June 2020 (UTC)

@Austronesier: And, to make things more complicated, the other agency also have claimed itself as Official Indonesian Coast Guard. So, do we just leave it as it is? Ckfasdf (talk) 11:34, 9 June 2020 (UTC)

Discussion in Template:History of Indonesia

FYI - There is an ongoing discussion about the periodization in the template: Template talk:History of Indonesia#Periodization restructuring. –Austronesier (talk) 11:49, 22 June 2020 (UTC)

Central Celebes

From WP:MILHIST:

Would Central Celebes back in the day would of been what? Back during WW2. East Java? Adamdaley (talk) 09:50, 14 June 2020 (UTC)

Part of the Dutch Great East until the Japanese invaded, wouldn't it? ...GELongstreet (talk) 12:28, 14 June 2020 (UTC)

Even though it's "Great East", it still would be like Central Celebes, NEI? Adamdaley (talk) 02:14, 15 June 2020 (UTC)

Nobody knows? Adamdaley (talk) 03:50, 19 June 2020 (UTC)

This is probably best asked at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Indonesia. Nick-D (talk) 23:26, 20 June 2020 (UTC)

@Adamdaley: The area of present-day Central Sulawesi corresponds to the afdeeling Midden-Celebes, which existed in the early 20th century and was part of the Residentie Menado in Great East. The afdeeling Midden-Celebes was divided in 1926 into two units, afdeeling Poso and afdeeling Donggala. –Austronesier (talk) 09:39, 22 June 2020 (UTC)

I need to know what it was during WW2. So if I can get a year range prior to WW2 like 1926-. Cause it needs to be historical as in the sense of the Japanese invading and with Z Special Unit landing intel personnel during 1942. Adamdaley (talk) 10:55, 22 June 2020 (UTC)

@Adamdaley: There were no further changes of administrative divisions in that area until independence in 1948. –Austronesier (talk) 11:33, 22 June 2020 (UTC)

So the Central Sulawesi was not known as the greater east NEI? Cause i know it was at the time java was called java and then there was east java. Central Sulawesi was even more east to East Java. To me I'd call it Greater NEI. But i know it wasn't officially called that. I need to know it was called in WW2. am i confusing? Adamdaley (talk) 20:30, 22 June 2020 (UTC)

@Austronesier: –– So the Central Celebes (or the Wikipedia article: Central Sulawesi) was part of afdeeling Midden-Celebes between 1926–1948 was the Great East of the NEI? Adamdaley (talk) 07:01, 23 June 2020 (UTC)

@Adamdaley: To be exact, "Central Celebes" didn't exist in WW2. Any source that says "troops landed in Central Celebes" creates an anachronism. Afdeeling Midden-Celebes ("central Celebes", equivalent in scope to modern Central Sulawesi) was divided into afdeeling Poso and afdeeling Donggala in 1926 both of which existed until 1948. So you would have afdeeling Poso, Menado residency, Great East, NEI and afdeeling Donggala, Menado residency, Great East, NEI. Do you have exact landing points, so we can correctly locate them in one of the two afdeelingen? –Austronesier (talk) 07:42, 23 June 2020 (UTC)

Austronesier - it would really help others (maybe you and and Adam have something going here that is fine) who are watching as to what you are referring to for WP:V sake - cribb's atlas (which is digital in some library systems) or Van Diessen, J. R; Ormeling, F. J. (Ferdinand Jan); Braam, R. C. M; Koninklijk Nederlands Aardrijkskundig Genootschap (2003), Grote atlas van Nederlands Oost-Indie = Comprehensive atlas of the Netherlands East Indies, Asia Maior/KNAG, ISBN 978-90-74861-20-5 or some other source ? otherwise in a sense its OR as it stands... thanks

I find my personal copy of Philip, George; Goodall, George (1940), Philips' International atlas. : Interim ed ([4th ed.] ed.), G. Philip & Son, retrieved 23 June 2020

useful for mid- war designations -

so it would be great for a RS please - so that anyone following might also be able to ascertain similar problems JarrahTree 08:09, 23 June 2020 (UTC)

@JarrahTree: I have looked up a dozen or more RS to locate what Adamdaley needs, but I have avoided the citespam until we're getting at its exact location. –Austronesier (talk) 08:46, 23 June 2020 (UTC)

According to the Operations of Z Special Unit (1942-1946) (page 6): The object of Lion (Operation Lion) was to establish an intelligence centre in Central CELEBES. The party left Darwin on 24 June 1942 by the prahu Somoa, intending to land near Wotoe, 60 kilometres (37 mi) west of Mailili on the Celebes where Lt. Van Hees had worked as an engineer for the Department of Public Works and where he hoped to contact one of his "mandoers" (overseers). On 11 July 1942, the party was contacted by radio, but their signals were too weak to be received. Nothing further was heard of the party after that date. This is where I am getting the Central Celebes. So basically in the map of Great East the map in the infobox was split into several points. The island I am referring to is Celebes (which was the main part) of Menado and Celebes en Onerhoorigheden would have been the part where the intel party was landed. This is the first island of many. I will continue more once we are on the same page here. Adamdaley (talk) 08:15, 23 June 2020 (UTC)

I have come to the conclusion that it was the Celebes part of the island. Hence the "Central Celebes" it was in between the fork-like island. The map on the operations points to the central part between the fork-like islands going south. I just need to know what that is officially called and a secondary question would it be the Great East of the NEI? Adamdaley (talk) 09:40, 23 June 2020 (UTC)

@Adamdaley: Now I get the picture. You're right, it was in the central part of the island, but not in administrative "Central Sulawesi" or former Midden-Celebes, but rather in Celebes en Onderhoorigheden. So the location is: Wotoe (modern spelling Wotu), Onderafdeeling Malili, Afdeeling Luwu, Residentie Celebes en Onderhoorigheden, Great East, NEI. These divisions are given in the Regeerings-Almanak voor Nederlandsch-Indie, 1941 (Malili is mentioned on p. 354). "Onderafdeeling" and "Afdeeling" are roughly equivalent to "sub-district" and "district" –Austronesier (talk) 10:35, 23 June 2020 (UTC)

@Austronesier: –– What would the island be called during 1926–1948? Is there a wikipedia link for Malili? Adamdaley (talk) 22:20, 23 June 2020 (UTC)

@Austronesier: –– The list of Indonesia operations are here: User:Adamdaley/Z Special Unit Operations – You can make the necessary changes to them. Adamdaley (talk) 23:05, 23 June 2020 (UTC)

@Austronesier: –– I have changed my footnote for Operation Lion to the following: Onderafdeeling Malili, Afdeeling Luwu, Residentie Celebes en Onderhoorigheden, Great East, NEI ..... Now I need to know what I just typed out and I'm guessing that it would Division of Malili not sure what is said after that. English translation? I would like to know what division Wotu/Wotoe would be. Would Wotu/Wotoe be the same as Malili? You'll need to sort it out perfect for me, because I am slow at getting these non-english names right and right as my footnotes. Adamdaley (talk) 07:19, 24 June 2020 (UTC)

@Austronesier: –– I have seriously confused myself. I changed the location, but not the footnote. I need an english translation of the following: Onderafdeeling Malili, Afdeeling Luwu, Residentie Celebes en Onderhoorigheden, Great East, NEI. We'll go from there when that is done. Adamdaley (talk) 07:19, 24 June 2020 (UTC)

@Adamdaley: I think we can proceed in User talk:Adamdaley/Z Special Unit Operations. –Austronesier (talk) 07:31, 24 June 2020 (UTC)

The subpage of that link has already been made. Go through my username and look on that page for it. Adamdaley (talk) 07:35, 24 June 2020 (UTC)

Yogyakartan Sea Port ?

I have just reverted some very laborious efforts at creating claims about a proposed sea port (? !) being developed in Yogyakarta/Bantul area.

Big problem is there is nothing in english on the web about such a proposal - I might wonder if any editors more familiar with Indonesian language media have seen anything in the subject...

It has been removed from the transport section of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special_Region_of_Yogyakarta.

Any clues as to the veracity for WP:V would be useful. The claims being added seemed to be quite extraordinary. JarrahTree 09:18, 24 June 2020 (UTC)

My guess: Tanjung Adikarto, just east of Yogyakarta International airport. --HyperGaruda (talk) 09:59, 4 July 2020 (UTC)

Thank you for clarifying that - the unsupported text in english was suggesting it {the development) was going to be the biggest best and possibly most beneficial thing ever in the history of the world... from a very brief review of links - all in Indonesian - it is all very long term dreaming so far, is that a poor review ? JarrahTree 10:11, 4 July 2020 (UTC)

That is quite an accurate review. The sea port addition was... overexaggerated, to put it mildly. --HyperGaruda (talk) 10:37, 4 July 2020 (UTC)

thanks for the verification... JarrahTree 11:24, 4 July 2020 (UTC)

Rulers articles with family trees attached

The Yogya and Solo rulers often have extended family trees added with no sources offered - any thoughts ?

Silsilah are important for many Indonesians if they are able to claim some form of association with identified royalfamily members, however it is really WP:NOT for articles to have extended unsourced lists... JarrahTree 08:04, 18 July 2020 (UTC)

No proof, no inclusion? Juxlos (talk) 10:08, 18 July 2020 (UTC)

And honestly why would we include the extended tree in the first place? Juxlos (talk) 10:08, 18 July 2020 (UTC)

Thanks for the reply - regularly the hamengkubuwono and pakubuwono articles have the silsilah added with no sign of where from and no provenance... JarrahTree 10:15, 18 July 2020 (UTC)

If these things occur again, feel free to list the affected pages here so we can assist in reverting and—if nedded—discussing, or if that's too tedious (I'll expect so with mass additions), just mention the user or IP, so we can follow their trail of disruption. –Austronesier (talk) 11:45, 18 July 2020 (UTC)

Thanks for that... JarrahTree 11:51, 18 July 2020 (UTC)

never ending, the latest https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamengkubuwono_II - I would appreciate someone else dealing with this, as the apparent singular responder to uncited silsilah seems to be burden better shared, if you get my gist JarrahTree 04:40, 19 July 2020 (UTC)

latest - now Diponegoro... JarrahTree 08:53, 19 July 2020 (UTC)

sigh, again (the 182.... IPnumber(s) never give up - as usual HBIV the latest...

Hamengkubuwono IV - the surabaya/jakarta editor(s) seem persistent, but the problem is apparent attempt at RS - also the never ending desire for family trees... JarrahTree 08:28, 29 July 2020 (UTC)

Meh, I have seen worse. While I do not agree that a list of 1st-generation children equals a family tree and there are precedents for such content, sources are still indeed needed. --HyperGaruda (talk) 05:34, 31 July 2020 (UTC)

Jawa Pos vs Jawa Pos Group

Hello everyone, I notice the Jawa Pos (publication) article is located at Jawa Pos Group, which should actually be an article about the ownership company, not the publication .. does this make sense? Should the article about the publication exist simply at Jawa Pos instead, and if necessary an article about the ownership corporation at that other article?--Dan Carkner (talk) 16:03, 28 July 2020 (UTC)

I can see that the same thing was done with Bali Post and Bali Post Media Group.--Dan Carkner (talk) 16:34, 28 July 2020 (UTC)

@Dan Carkner: Agree about Jawa Pos Group, that page is 100% about the publication, so the title should be moved. But I cannot see the same issue with Bali Post Media Group. –Austronesier (talk) 15:24, 12 August 2020 (UTC)

List of city nicknames in Indonesia

Para editor yth, does anyone see the potential to salvage that page with reliable sources before I will PROD it? –Austronesier (talk) 15:18, 12 August 2020 (UTC)

More likely we have to delete it ASAP before it becomes circular referencing considering the typical Indonesian pop journalist. Juxlos (talk) 16:04, 12 August 2020 (UTC)

@Austronesier: 20 can be found here, many others can be referenced to the KBBI (the official dictionary). For example, if you look up Bogor in KBBI [10], it says there it is known as "Kota Hujan". I'd suggest overhauling it rather than PROD-ding it, maybe just start with the 20 linked above. (Obviously searching the KBBI for all possible nicknames will be too much work). These are real things, and have encyclopedic values. As with city nicknames in other countries, they often show up in pop culture, newspaper articles, and sometimes day to day conversation. HaEr48 (talk)

@HaEr48: That's certainly a good source, "Kota Melayu Deli" for Medan sounds much more familiar and notable than "Parijs van Andalusië"! Apparently all of the pseudo-Dutch stuff which makes the list to cringy (and triggered my Pavlovian PROD-reflex) can be traced to this page[11]: just try a Google search before that date for all the "van Bullshit" names, for most of them you get nil results (I did a random check). I think I'll start with throwing out this obvious hogwash, but will be less radical with the other entries...their might be babies in the bathwater. –Austronesier (talk) 19:07, 12 August 2020 (UTC)

Austronesier, Yes, I agree many of those seem made up/fictional. HaEr48 (talk) 20:56, 12 August 2020 (UTC)

Urgh. It's a cobbled together assortment of un-referenced parochial marketing delusions. I say kill it. Kill it with fire. Burn it to the ground. Leave it for the brochures of non-notable inns and tour companies. --Merbabu (talk) 22:00, 12 August 2020 (UTC)

JarrahTree - your worst nightmare? --Merbabu (talk) 22:02, 12 August 2020 (UTC)

@Merbabu: Yeah, it's hard to avoid that knee-jerk reaction. But as HaEr48 said, some of these are common usage beyond promotional BS. They are very common in flowery style (e.g. in bad "journalism"), like when a gossip presenter calls a starlet from Makassar "gadis asal Kota Angin Mamiri". WP:V? Yes; WP:N? Dunno. In any case, I have just deleted the "van Hoax" entries, which are as genuine as the works of van Meegeren. –Austronesier (talk) 08:59, 13 August 2020 (UTC)

there is something about lists... a very complex issue, no simple answer... nope, the endless addition of unreferenced material to the rulers of Yogyakarta and Surakarta are serious and incessant, a single meaningless list can be edited or eliminated easily, the ever returning HB family trees from no apparent source offends me more.. JarrahTree 09:04, 13 August 2020 (UTC)

This project, because of it's place in english wikipedia, is an easy target for hoax and unbelievably very poor quality articles - the reassuring and heartening aspect is there are a few editors who see something questionable and are prepared to talk about it and deal with it... what would be the 'nightmare' if no-one turned up - to deal with the issues as identified in the archive of this talk page... it has happened more than a few times in the last 10 years + - just a warm thanks to those around at the moment... JarrahTree 09:09, 13 August 2020 (UTC)

Roosilawaty

Might anyone be interested in creating a quick article on Roosilawaty? There are already articles on other Wikipedias: min:Roosilawaty and id:Roosilawaty. The reason I ask is that we have a featured picture that will have to be delisted unless an article is created! See Wikipedia:Featured picture candidates/delist/Chitra Dewi. Josh Milburn (talk) 13:14, 14 August 2020 (UTC)

@J Milburn: but the thing is those two language version has no reference. How long is it until the decision for delisting is made? HaEr48 (talk) 14:09, 14 August 2020 (UTC)

very few references...

Star Weekly: 6 December 1958, PT. Trade & Printing Press "Keng Po", 1958, retrieved 15 August 2020 - 5 of those on Trove - and good news is the run is online at monash - https://repository.monash.edu/items/show/88726#?c=0&m=0&s=0&cv=0 - for anyone interested... JarrahTree 15:56, 14 August 2020 (UTC)

My gut feeling says that much of the information in the Indonesian page comes (or was copied) from the external link (Profil di jibis.pnri.go.id) which is not accessible. Other reliable information seems hard to get[12]. Which brings up another question: WP:N? –Austronesier (talk) 14:37, 14 August 2020 (UTC)

Speaking of finding sources, how certain are we about the spelling of her name? This movie poster uses "Roosilawati", while this Dutch 1957 newspaper snippet says "Rosilawati" (first paragraph in the second column below Sayonara Night op Damesbeurs). Perhaps a good idea to try multiple variations when searching? --HyperGaruda (talk) 05:43, 15 August 2020 (UTC)

Aceh - an "Islamic state"?

I just noticed this edit (marked as minor) whereby the infobox now notes Aceh as an Islamic state.

What are the board's thoughts on that one? Does the implementation of Sharia Law thereby make a state an Islamic state? (Like many things in infoboxes) there is nothing in the main article along these lines.

Looking to get the board's opinion here on at the article talk page. --Merbabu (talk) 04:22, 26 August 2020 (UTC)

@Merbabu: I wrote a bit about the actual extent of "sharia" in Aceh: Islamic criminal law in Aceh (which is now GA-class). Aceh is in no way its own state, while it has some autonomy it is still largely within NKRI (the Indonesian unitary state) and follow the Indonesian constitution. Also, when the media (both Western and local) says that Aceh implements the "sharia law" it doesn't actually mean Aceh discards all Indonesian laws and replace it with some form of the sharia. What it actually means is just that it has several perda that has some provisions of sharia-inspired criminal punishment. Some marriage and inheritance laws are based on the Islamic law (as in other parts of Indonesia). But other than the few enumerated criminal punishment, by and large Aceh still applies the Indonesian criminal code (Dutch-based) as well as Indonesian laws and consitution in other matters. For example, it has a governor and local parliaments like in the other provinces, and they are elected more or less like in the other provinces (with some exceptions) . HaEr48 (talk) 04:44, 26 August 2020 (UTC)

Islamic or not, it is not a 'state', it is formally a 'province'. Juxlos (talk) 07:51, 26 August 2020 (UTC)

Random non notable village additions to the project

The subject maybe somewhere in the archives above - there is a need for the project to ascertain if every village in Indonesia is notable enough to include as inherently notable because of its existence - that leads to a rather large problem...

Any indication by fellow editors who watch here to make comment or suggestion? JarrahTree 01:49, 11 July 2020 (UTC)

Further to this - it would appear that the defence of one line content free stubs will in all probability see the unfettered and unreasoned addition of 80,000 + stubs.

I would have thought that any sensible discussion of the inherent notability of a settlement might have been had here, for those who might have walked through some of the villages of Indonesia to realise that perhaps a slightly higher level be created for inclusion. Perhaps something like a heightened notability for regencies or villages (other than simply to be listed in articles further up the administrative heirarchy).

Something as simple as adequate WP:RS and WP:V of WP:N of a village could perhaps save an administration of 80,000 one line stubs?

Some adventurous editors in the past have created village stubs, and they are always (a) never adequately categorised (b) never expanded beyond their oneline 'they exist'

I would have thought the process should seriously consider what is said in WP:NOT. JarrahTree 01:55, 13 July 2020 (UTC)

We should define a cut-off point for default notability. I would propose anything from kabupaten upwards has "inherent notability". Most regency pages have lists of kecamatans, so redirect pages for kecamatans are probably also ok, provided they are listed somewhere. Below that threshold, pages should only be kept based on the criteria per WP:N. –Austronesier (talk) 08:57, 14 July 2020 (UTC)

The issue is complicated by the comments of supporters of the one size fits all WP:GEOLAND which gives inexperienced new editors the thrill of adding one of 80,000 + villages unhindered by intervention by discernment or common sense - or even for that matter anything to do with notability. The tragedy of the one size fits all policy is such that supporters are ever keen to emphasize that the geoland policy supports mention of a location as sufficient - and when one considers variation in settlement patterns across cultures and geography - it really beggars belief as to who set the policy in stone, and whether they had any anthropological, or cross cultural training of any sort to reach such an astonishing policy. I go no further, and leave it someone else to deal with such an absurd criterion. So many of the attempts at one size fits all ideas from the early days of wikipedia had to be undone, with difficulty to change, in the face of absurd and in some cases outright stupid attempts to tie into concepts that do not exist uniformally across the planet. Sad. JarrahTree 10:11, 14 July 2020 (UTC)

for background on how things can go - there are interesting discussions at links here - many thanks to an editor who alerted them to me:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Jimbo_Wales/Archive_147#Indian_and_Pakistani_village_cleanup

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Noticeboard_for_India-related_topics/Archive_55#Indian_and_Pakistani_villages

And I am very sure, that the editors who have insisted that I was in the wrong to challenge new village articles, are in their own way totally auf fait and familiar with the existence of this project - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Villages

JarrahTree 10:26, 14 July 2020 (UTC)

WP:GEOLAND is utterly frustrating. Especially the fact that it is supposed to override all sane interpretations of WP:N. –Austronesier (talk) 20:47, 18 July 2020 (UTC)

Please continue discussion at Wikipedia_talk:Notability_(geographic_features)#Populated_places. We need a new notability guideline for places. –LaundryPizza03 (d c̄) 15:10, 7 September 2020 (UTC)

Lists of notable people

Hi there - i stumbled across this list of notable people within an article. My first thought is that articles shouldn't contain such lists. They can stand alone. I don't think the majority of these people are that important to the city. Can i suggest in these cases that a stand alone list article is created, with a See Also link created in the city article? Other thoughts? --Merbabu (talk) 01:25, 12 September 2020 (UTC)

One of your project's articles has been selected for improvement!

Hello,
Please note that Asian art, which is within this project's scope, has been selected as one of Today's articles for improvement. The article is scheduled to appear on Wikipedia's Community portal in the "Today's articles for improvement" section for one week, beginning today. Everyone is encouraged to collaborate to improve the article. Thanks, and happy editing!
_{Delivered by — MusikBot ^talk 00:06, 14 September 2020 (UTC) on behalf of the TAFI team}

Bersiap

Calling for a broader set of eyes on this one...as is the wikipedia way. The article was moved to "Bersiap killings" without discussion. The intent seems to have been to change the focus from a "phase" known as Bersiap to a focus on killings by Indonesian republicans. A lot of sourced-material has been removed without explaination. I am in the process of restoring it if it seems decent material. We can remove if good explanation is found. There is also new material added which I haven't yet got to look at closely.

I also reverted the unilateral page move from "Bersiap" to "Bersiap killings".

Would be good to have more eyes and input on the issue. --Merbabu (talk) 23:29, 11 September 2020 (UTC)

I've looked further into it - perhaps i should just call a spade a spade...User:BabiBandung is in the process of changing the article focus from about te early stages of the Indonesian revolution to one about "Indonesian natives horribly raping and murdering (tens) of thousands of Eurasians because of their ethnicity". While any article can be improved, this change strikes me has non-neutral and POV-pushing.--Merbabu (talk) 23:55, 11 September 2020 (UTC)

This is not good--seems quite biased. I've been taking a bit of a break from writing Indonesian history articles while the weather is still nice here where I live but feel free to tag me if you need help beefing up neutral historical citations in a case like this. Dan Carkner (talk) 01:16, 16 September 2020 (UTC)

Women in Red Asian women contest

From 1 October to 31 December, Women in Red is running a virtual contest on Asian women. In November, this will coincide with Wikipedia Asian Month. We look forward to strong participation from all those interested in improving coverage of Indonesian women.--Ipigott (talk) 16:15, 21 September 2020 (UTC)

Anonymous IP addresses editing names Chinese Indonesian biographies

Hello, some of you may have noticed but someone operating behind anonymous accounts has been editing some biographical articles about Chinese Indonesian historical figures to change their name from the historical, Dutch influenced spelling to something a bit more like pinyin--so from Tan Boen Soan to Chen Wenxuan and so on. I noticed someone was reverting some of them and I reverted a few more. I'm not saying the pinyin shouldn't be in the article but it should not be listed at the top of the infobox as the only name,etc. --Dan Carkner (talk) 22:30, 21 September 2020 (UTC)

Pinyin (=romanised Mandarin from northern China) is usually not relevant to Chinese Indonesian culture. Generally speaking and if needed at all, such transliterations should follow Pe̍h-ōe-jī (=romanised Hokkien from southeast China) instead, because that is where most of the Chinese linguistic influence comes from. --HyperGaruda (talk) 14:16, 26 September 2020 (UTC)

I think that makes sense. One never encounters the Pinyin name in historical documents about such figures as being written about in this biographies. First and foremost the Dutch-influenced spelling that was their legal name, then in Chinese characters, and also possibly the Indonsianized name post-1950s. Anything else is probably superfluous in a short biography.Dan Carkner (talk) 15:56, 28 September 2020 (UTC)

Label all New Order ministers and governors as Golkar in the party column?

From Halawa, Ohiao (1999). Profil 48 Ketua Umum Parpol RI [Profile of the 48 Chairpersons of the Political Parties in Indonesia] (in Indonesian). Jakarta: NIAS and Kreasi Karya Wiguna. p. 54.

"Two, during its regime, [Golkar] has made all governmental institutions as its tool. The President is the Chairman of the Advisory Council [of Golkar]. Ministers, Armed Forces Commanders, and heads of state institution became the members of the Advisory Council [of Golkar].

Kedua, selama menguasai pemerintahan, secara jelas telah menjadikan lembaga kekuasaan negara sebagai perangkat organisasi Golkar. Presiden adalah Ketua Dewan Pembina. Menteri, Panglima ABRI, dan pimpinan lembaga pemerintahan menjadi anggota Dewan Pembina."

About regional head as Golkar member: [13] Regards, Jeromi Mikhael ^(marhata) 01:59, 2 October 2020 (UTC)

My instinct is to not round up being forced to advise the party to being a party member. But yeah clearly there is an affiliation there. --Dan Carkner (talk) 20:13, 2 October 2020 (UTC)

Lets create an article for the Law of Job Creation/Omnibus Law ASAP and insert into In The News in the mainpage

Pinging @Juxlos, Davidelit, SiberianCat, Nyanardsan, Gerald Waldo Luis, and CakalangSantan: for assistance, opinions, and references about this. This might be the community's first attempt at creating such article. --Regards, Jeromi Mikhael ^(marhata) 13:29, 6 October 2020 (UTC)

One thing to suggest, another to actually offer some links to the issue... also the process of going through 'in the news' requires a process JarrahTree 13:32, 6 October 2020 (UTC)

Yes, the thing is to create the article ASAP so it won't be basi.Regards, Jeromi Mikhael ^(marhata) 13:41, 6 October 2020 (UTC)

I expect we'd need to get it done in 2-3 days for ITN - and even then the scale of the protests seem muted thanks to covid so I kind of doubt it can pass ITN. Juxlos (talk) 13:52, 6 October 2020 (UTC)

Juxlos, Nyanardsan has created this sometime ago. I think the main goal is to create the law. Regards, Jeromi Mikhael ^(marhata) 13:55, 6 October 2020 (UTC)

Said thing would definitely need quite a bit of copyediting or else the ITN people will eat you alive. Regardless I don't expect to be editing much in the next week or so due to pure laziness. Juxlos (talk) 13:58, 6 October 2020 (UTC)

Well then, have a nice week! I'll create the draft for the law article. Regards, Jeromi Mikhael ^(marhata) 14:04, 6 October 2020 (UTC)

Having been in ITNC discussions and seeing the arguments that come up, I doubt that folks over there will accept a piece of legislation as an ITN entry, even if the quality is perfect, unless somehow it or the protests dominate the international news, which seem unlikely given all the international events right now. I think the better route would be WP:DYK. DYK does not have any additional notability criteria apart from notability needed for the article to be created. Probably the only thing to be watched is to copyedit it, and make sure it is ready and nominated within 7 days of article creation. HaEr48 (talk) 14:22, 6 October 2020 (UTC)

Well, if the law practically makes all workers in the country as contract workers? How important is that? There won't be a single permanent worker anymore.... Regards, Jeromi Mikhael ^(marhata) 14:56, 6 October 2020 (UTC)

The law doesn't even do that. It loosens requirements for contract workers. There's no chance this will pass in ITN and frankly if you nominate it I will come over and oppose. Juxlos (talk) 15:01, 6 October 2020 (UTC)

Well, my house is located near a workers' rights organization and there has been a significant activity there....I'll ask them when they'll move. As soon as they're moving I'll nominate that. Regards, Jeromi Mikhael ^(marhata) 15:37, 6 October 2020 (UTC)

Interesting. I'll look for references, will come back when got some. Gerald WL 15:26, 6 October 2020 (UTC) Update: it's national. Protests are enraging in Bandung, Jakarta, Sukabumi, plans for national strike, preparations for student strikes, Tangerang Regent is surrounded. The fact that the enactment of this law lies on a single person is what makes it interesting. Regards, Jeromi Mikhael ^(marhata) 17:24, 6 October 2020 (UTC)

I think i've created article about the protest itself, but its still need much more improvement.Maybe instead of creating new article for the bill itself, we put information about the bill in protest article?Indonesia omnibus bill protests Nyanardsan (talk) 03:37, 7 October 2020 (UTC)

It's a gargantuan bit of legislation, which in its draft form had created headaches for law firms and journalists seeking to summarize its provisions. While some of the contentious articles were dropped for it to be passed by the DPR, the environmental impact deregulation and labor law revisions - and the ongoing protests and battles of the buzzers - will keep it in the news for a while. I have no interest in getting pages on ITN or DYK, but could try making a "brief" page about UU Cipta Kerja this week/end.SiberianCat (talk) 18:42, 7 October 2020 (UTC)

Well then. It seems that many people are interested in creating the page but not for the ITN. Guess I'll handle it myself then. Regards, Jeromi Mikhael ^(marhata) 02:07, 8 October 2020 (UTC)

The article was created at Omnibus Law on Job Creation. Hanif Al Husaini (talk) 02:22, 8 October 2020 (UTC)

Ongoing Discussion

There is a discussion about Omnibus Law Protests at ITN. Feel free to express your opinion. Regards, Jeromi Mikhael ^(marhata) 11:54, 12 October 2020 (UTC)

National Hero Backlog drive

I'm inspired by the Wikipedia:WikiProject Good articles/GAN Backlog Drives from the guys at the Good Articles WikiProject, and saw the opportunity of importing this thing into WP:Indonesia for National Hero topics. Since the government inevitably adds two up to eight national heroes each year (1965 is an exception), I'd suggest that we held a backlog drive for adding materials into the National Hero articles before it gets too cluttered with stubs. The main goal would to simply improve the article from a stub or start to C/B/GA/A/FA. National Hero day is getting closer at 10 November, and the duration of the backlog drive would be from a week before the day (3 November) and a week after the day (17 November). If the people here in WP:Indonesia agree then I'll start to make the corresponding subpage. Regards, Jeromi Mikhael ^(marhata) 07:01, 16 October 2020 (UTC)

I'm willing to fill out some articles from such a list, of people from the Dutch East Indies era, would that be the kind of people who would be listed as stubs? Or are we talking about more recent ones only? I can work on those too, just my research techniques are better for info about older ones. --Dan Carkner (talk) 15:44, 16 October 2020 (UTC)

@Dan Carkner: There are still four redlinks: Abdul Halim Majalengka, Djamin Ginting, Bagoes Hadikoesoemo, and I Gusti Ngurah Made Agung. The stubs are listed here using PetScan. Hanif Al Husaini (talk) 15:57, 16 October 2020 (UTC)

Will add those to my to-do list, thanks. --Dan Carkner (talk) 16:07, 16 October 2020 (UTC)

Have done Marthen Indey and Abdul Halim Majalengka. Both articles could use more work but at least they contain basic biographical facts and some references now. I can see that the list of extremely basic stubs is quite long but I'll try to get through at least some of them as I have time and energy to do so.--Dan Carkner (talk) 21:40, 18 October 2020 (UTC)

Almost half of the National Hero articles are either stubs or starts. We should begin to work on them. Asking @Juxlos, Davidelit, SiberianCat, Nyanardsan, Gerald Waldo Luis, CakalangSantan, and HaEr48: for assistance, opinions, and references about this.This is my default user list btwRegards, Jeromi Mikhael ^(marhata) 05:13, 17 October 2020 (UTC)

I find the type of Indonesian-language, mass market National Hero fact books to be kind of on the fence in terms of reputable sources, I think they are OK to use here but it does feel kind of arbitrary to cite one or another when they all often have the same 1-2 page biography giving the same facts. In terms of some "National Heroes" this is the only printed source that really talks about them unfortunately, whereas others are attested a lot more in other literature. Perhaps Delpher will have more contemporary news coverage of some of them if they were well knowing during the Dutch era. But being stuck during COVID era without being able to access libraries and things like that, it does make it a bit harder to find good quality citations for some of these figures, in my opinion. Dan Carkner (talk) 21:47, 18 October 2020 (UTC)

@Dan Carkner: Fear no more about that source. The ministry has digitized it all. Regards, Jeromi Mikhael ^(marhata) 00:23, 19 October 2020 (UTC)

@Jeromi Mikhael: thanks, will try that next time! Dan Carkner (talk) 05:35, 19 October 2020 (UTC)

You guys might want to see this.

Talk:Main_Page#Day-after-tomorrow's_OTD, number 1. Regards, Jeromi Mikhael ^(marhata) 10:14, 8 November 2020 (UTC)

Update to peer review page

Hi all, I've boldly updated your project's peer review page (Wikipedia:WikiProject Indonesia/Peer review) by updating the instructions and archiving old reviews.

The new instructions use Wikipedia's general peer review process (WP:PR) to list peer reviews. Your project's reviews are still able to be listed on your local page too.

The benefits of this change is that review requests will get seen by a wider audience and are likely to be attended to in a more timely way (many WikiProject peer reviews remain unanswered after years). The Wikipedia peer review process is also more maintained than most WikiProjects, and this may help save time for your active members.

I've done this boldly as it seems your peer review page is pretty inactive and I am working through around 90 such similar peer review pages. Please feel free to discuss below - please ping me ({{u|Tom (LT)}}) in your response.

Cheers and hope you are well, Tom (LT) (talk) 00:08, 15 November 2020 (UTC)

Deputy or vice

When should we use deputy and when should we use vice for the translation of "wakil"? This thing has caught me since the Deputy Governor of Jakarta.Regards, Jeromi Mikhael ^(marhata) 13:49, 17 October 2020 (UTC)

But Deputy Governor of Jakarta and Vice Governor of Jakarta appear to be different positions. So if deputi=deputy, then wakil=vice? --HyperGaruda (talk) 18:21, 23 October 2020 (UTC)

President and Vice President. Then, the more common convention when writing in English about Indonesian (and non-Indonesian) office-holders and dignitaries, is to use "deputy" for mayor and governor and corporate positions. That's the general style preference of The Jakarta Post, Jakarta Globe and Tempo English, although consistency is never their strongest suit. Antara English prefers "vice governor" and "deputy mayor". As HyperGaruda says, Jakarta has a vice governor, who serves as the governor's wakil, and since about 2009 there have been four separate deputies (each handling distinct duties). So perhaps best to use "deputy" for wakil, except when talking about the wakil presiden or a wakil gubernor Jakarta who has distinct deputies plus a vice governor. And of course use "vice" if that's what any corporate or political figure has on their official website, reports or name-card. SiberianCat (talk) 09:07, 7 December 2020 (UTC)

Commons image needs to be moved to Indonesian Wikipedia

File:Semen Padang Hospital.png looks to be above the "threshold of originality" and therefore not public domain, at least not in the USA. It is small and only used in id:Semen Padang Hospital. I recommend transwiki-ing it.

If the hospital is notable by English Wikipedia standards, consider translating the page into English. Yes, that will mean a second copy of the logo will have to be uploaded here if it will be used in the English version. davidwr/(talk)/(contribs) 🎄 17:14, 19 December 2020 (UTC)

I have seen more elaborate logos than that, yet still falling below the threshold of originality. To me, this is a case of simple geometric shapes, to which commons:Template:PD-textlogo applies. That said, the current CC-BY-SA license given on Commons seems to be bogus. --HyperGaruda (talk) 07:10, 21 December 2020 (UTC)

Tendentious editing?

Hi all, can you have a look at this edit[14]? To me, this looks like a personal opinion plus partisan soapboxing garnished by respectable sources which either do not support the statement, or only reflect opinions by political groups which are covered in the source (CNN), but here added in wikivoice. –Austronesier (talk) 20:16, 18 January 2021 (UTC)

Javanese contact with Australia

WP:OR, WP:FRINGE, and in any case not notable enough to warrant an article. No serious academics talk about a distinct, regular Javanese contact separate from the Macassan or European contact. Someone proposed on the talk page that it should be redirected to the Macassan contact article. Or should it be deleted completely? Masjawad99^💬 06:48, 26 January 2021 (UTC)

Template:Did you know nominations/March of the Indonesian National Armed Forces

Jerome (who is this Did You Know nomination's nominator) is not currently active and the reviewer is asking if another editor could adopt it in his stead and address issues. In particular, the reviewer is asking for someone who knows Indonesian to help expand the article and perhaps look for more sources. Would anyone be willing to help out? Courtesy ping to HyperGaruda who appears to be the most active editor here apart from Jerome. Narutolovehinata5 ^tccsdnew 02:19, 1 February 2021 (UTC)

Proposed page move of Java to Java (disambiguation)

This wikiproject may be interested in this discussion. Talk:Java (disambiguation)#Requested move 28 February 2021 Eopsid (talk) 22:12, 5 March 2021 (UTC)

Oof. Thanks for bring that to our attention. What a proposal.. --Dan Carkner (talk) 23:25, 5 March 2021 (UTC)

Weight of rudder theory of Silkair Flight 185

Please see Talk:SilkAir_Flight_185#Introduction:_Suggest_to_remove_last_part for questions over WP:WEIGHT of the rudder malfunction theory of Silkair Flight 185. WhisperToMe (talk) 15:21, 19 April 2021 (UTC)

Category:Bandung Conference attendees was deleted unanimously (only heard of it after the fact). Thoughts?

I only noticed after the fact, when someone removed the category from an article I follow, that the Category for people who attended the 1955 Bandung Conference was deleted. Now, this isn't only an Indonesian matter of course, but I thought maybe I could bring it to the attention here first (where, unfortunately no one thought to mention it when it was nominated to be deleted). Wikipedia:Categories_for_discussion/Log/2021_April_16#Category:Bandung_Conference_attendees IMO, this was a mistake. This wasn't just any conference as you all probably know. But the people voting to delete it seem to think it is. Actually an number of world leaders who never otherwise met came together at this conference and it was pretty important for the third world movement etc. Thoughts? Is there any way to appeal this kind of thing? I took a look at the process and it seems they don't want you to appeal it just if you disagree with the decision.--Dan Carkner (talk) 23:29, 9 May 2021 (UTC)

The deletion has little to do with the importance of the event. The point is if attendance is a defining feature of the topic (here: the leaders/politicians/diplomats who attended). We don't have cats for the participants of the Congress of Vienna or Woodstock either. I agree with the editor who suggested to listify the information. –Austronesier (talk) 13:47, 10 May 2021 (UTC)

I'll let it be then. For me it seems equally important to have international level ones like that (and other major landmarks like First International, Congress of Vienna, etc) represented as small local ones like Category:Delegates to the 1851 Indiana constitutional convention but if they are disapproved by Wikipedia policy for some reason then so be it.Dan Carkner (talk) 19:53, 10 May 2021 (UTC)

New Page Patrol

New Page Patrol needs experienced volunteers

New Page Patrol is currently struggling to keep up with the influx of new articles, including Indonesia related articles. We could use a few extra hands on deck if you think you can help.
Reviewing/patrolling a page doesn't take much time but it requires a good understanding of Wikipedia policies and guidelines; Wikipedia needs experienced users to perform this task and there are precious few with the appropriate skills. Even a couple reviews a day can make a huge difference.
If you would like to join the project and help out, please see the granting conditions and review our instructions page. You can apply for the user-right HERE. --John B123 (talk) 14:40, 23 May 2021 (UTC)

1883 eruption of Krakatoa

There are talk page comments concerning the current B-class article classification and citation issues for anyone interested. -- Otr500 (talk) 02:07, 29 May 2021 (UTC)

Need help on creating a new article: Indonesian nationalism

Hi. I'm new here, and I really want to create a new article about Indonesian nationalism. Since there's no article about it, I might need your help to create it. Even many countries in ASEAN have their own form of nationalism, for example, The Philippines, Malaysia, Vietnam, Cambodia, Thailand, and Myanmar. Mhatopzz (talk) 16:36, 27 May 2021

I agree. It was on my to do list for the last year too although I haven't had the energy to tackle it. Happy to contribute especially regarding the 1910s-1920s which I've researched the most.--Dan Carkner (talk) 13:48, 27 May 2021 (UTC)

Alright, should I make a draft or a stub article? Mhatopzz (talk) 18:18, 28 May 2021

Hi, you can start it as you like and I can give feedback and start to contribute. Maybe a draft would be better than a stub for a large and possibly nebulous topic though. Since we are in opposite time zones I think, we will probably not be editing at the same time anyways. If I may suggest a good framework for the article would be not only the Filipino one you linked, but also African nationalism and Indian nationalism. The reason I say this is because in many senses Indonesian nationalism is not tied to a specific ethnic group and may have more resemblance to those types than the Vietnam, Khmer and Thai ones you linked. Thanks --Dan Carkner (talk) 14:16, 28 May 2021 (UTC)

Here you go Indonesian nationalism anyone can contribute, your welcome

Will take a look this weekend thanks.Dan Carkner (talk) 15:53, 28 May 2021 (UTC)

Hi, Dan Carkner do you still want to continue it? because I still need help lol, I might want to ping someone to request for help, but I don't know who to ask Mhatopzz (talk) 1:30, 3 June 2021

I definitely can, I did not want to start the core of the article which you seemed passionate about and arrange it the way I see it, as a non Indonesian. If you want I can just start plugging some citations into general subsections and you can rearrange them and further discussion can occur.--Dan Carkner (talk) 21:45, 2 June 2021 (UTC)

Amir Machmud

This article is in need of sources if anyone has time. See Talk:Amir Machmud.4meter4 (talk) 00:02, 13 June 2021 (UTC)

Requested move for Boven-Digoel

Hi folks, this may be of interest here, I am suggesting that Boven-Digoel be moved to a more descriptive article name for a prison camp/concentration camp. Please let me know what you think at Talk:Boven-Digoel. --Dan Carkner (talk) 14:30, 27 June 2021 (UTC)

Jihane Almira Chedid

How do I tell the author that being a DPR Ambassador is not the same as being a DPR speaker or member? --Regards, Jeromi Mikhael 13:54, 10 July 2021 (UTC)

Eka Supria Atmaja

Hello, I recently created an article for Eka Supria Atmaja. Any help improving it would be appreciated. Thank you, Thriley (talk) 01:50, 12 July 2021 (UTC)

I did my best based on current news articles or ones from a few years ago about his electoral activities, but I could not find much else about him in books or databases.--Dan Carkner (talk) 15:30, 12 July 2021 (UTC)

Indonesia has one of the YOUNGEST prime ministers in the world?

TIL: The point of this thread is to ask whether it is suitable to include Ide Anak Agung Gde Agung in the List of youngest state leaders since 1900

So I've been thinking about this for a while and it took me some time to put this into word. As we know, Ide Anak Agung Gde Agung was a Balinese aristocrat who became the Prime Minister of East Indonesia. What's interesting is his age when he assumed the office: he was born on 21 July 1921 and he was installed on 15 December 1947. That means he was 26 years, 4 months when he became prime minister. For comparison, Sanna Marin, who was hailed as world's youngest prime minister (should've specified it as world's youngest incumbent prime minister) is 35 years old. And looking at this list, List of youngest state leaders since 1900, Agung is probably the second youngest prime minister in the world!

At first sight this seems ridiculous. It is common knowledge that East Indonesia is a Dutch puppet and the indigenuous officials can't do anything. Yes, that is on paper, but when we examine further East Indonesia is de jure until 27 August 1949, the date of RIS formation (and coincidentally the date when Agung ended his tenure as prime minister). There were no state body above the federal states (NICA isn't a state and the relations between Netherlands and the federal states is de jure an equal one). Please give your thoughts on this. (Sorry my English is a bit bad) --Regards, Jeromi Mikhael 12:47, 15 July 2021 (UTC)

Discussion at Indonesian Wikipedia

Maybe many here, especially native Indonesians who edit more in English Wikipedia, would be interested in a discussion I just created here (unlink date per WP:DATELINK and simplification of lead sentence parenthetical phrases). Thanks. Hddty (talk) 07:21, 24 July 2021 (UTC)

Boven Digoel redirect - thoughts?

Hi folks, I think it would be worthwhile to have an Indonesian perspective on this (or Papuan if there are any of you on here!). Due to the renaming of the article about the camp as Boven-Digoel concentration camp, Boven-Digoel is now a disambiguation page between the camp and the regency. What do you think of my suggestion on Talk:Boven-Digoel that the Regency may the primary topic at this point? --Dan Carkner (talk) 16:25, 5 August 2021 (UTC)

Religion articles and sections

There have been a lot of uncited changes to religion numbers in Indonesian articles recently. Mostly seems to be people increasing the percentages of their favourite religions. If it goes on, there might be a need for some page protection, but I'm inclined to wait and see if they get bored. Any thoughts? Stay well everybody. Davidelit (Talk) 10:27, 16 August 2021 (UTC)

At the current level of disruption, I think "watch and revert" still works. And then follow the track of the disruptive editor for more unsourced changes.

Another problem is with old unnoticed changes, so sometimes incorrect data becomes part of the "stable version". Recently, I dug up[15] the original sourced figures for Minahasan people, although I had to trust the IP that their data really corresponds to the source. –Austronesier (talk) 20:56, 17 August 2021 (UTC)

Portuguese colonialism in the East Indies

hey, I need your help and confirmation, does this article related or made under the context of Indonesian history or not? Mhatopzz (talk) 02:30, 27 August 2021 (UTC)

Yes, the intent was for it to be about Portuguese colonialism in Indonesia. Then the word "Indonesia" was removed by someone who objected to it being used about events 4 centuries ago, and it was about the "East Indies", hence today's argument about why haven't we talked about India, Macau and Malaysia (is there an *eye roll* symbol on wikipedia?). However, your change of article title to "Portuguese colonialism in Indonesian history" is a good one, in my opinion. thank you. The conversation is better continued at the article talk page.--Merbabu (talk) 08:19, 27 August 2021 (UTC)

Cities and regencies article improvement

I've been working on several regencies and cities for a while and at least made them C-class articles. I really hope we could at least make all provincial capital cities in Indonesia C-class by the end of this year. There also seems to be many outdated informations that need some update. Anyone onboard? Nyanardsan (talk) 08:44, 14 September 2021 (UTC)

Ali Kalora

I just partly translated Ali Kalora. I think its a pretty big deal that he was shot to death, would it worth to try inserting it to ITN? At least at minimum we can try to make it into RD. Apologize for the tag. @Mhatopzz @Dan Carkner @Jeromi Mikhael @Gerald Waldo Luis Nyanardsan (talk) 05:53, 19 September 2021 (UTC)

@Nyanardsan: wee bit late - but RDs are “as long as the article is accepted and not full of yellow tags it’s fine” so you don’t really have to ask others before nomming RD. Juxlos (talk) 08:04, 18 October 2021 (UTC)

National symbols of Indonesia

Many (most?) items listed here are accompanied by their Indonesian translation. Is that really what we should be doing? I would have thought not. I did a spot check of (an admittedly small sample) of the counterpart articles of France and Germany, and translations are not provided. The following terms, amongst others, are provided with Indonesian translations: "Unity in diversity", "red and white", "Jasminum sambac", "moon orchid", "national animal", "national bird", "diamond", etc, etc. Sure, if there is a proper noun or a non-translatable item, that's fine, but most are not these cases.

And casting a wider net, even in the Germany article, a translation of German (language) as "Deutsch" is not provided. Yet across the Indonesian "project" the articles are riddled with (what I think are superfluous) translations into Indonesian. --Merbabu (talk) 02:41, 18 October 2021 (UTC)

We should keep the Indonesian name whenever there is a significant mismatch that needs a literal translation (e.g. for sang merah putih (lit. 'the honored red-white') , or in the case of a gross but established mistranslations such as "Unity in diversity" (Bhinneka Tunggal Ika which actually means 'they are different [yet] they are one'). In some cases, the English translations are simply wrong ("national bird" for satwa langka).

I agree that we should keep original language clutter to a minimum, especially when it doesn't really serve our readers. If an Indonesian equivalent is commonly mentioned in English-language sources, we can add it here for easy reference. But if it predominantly/exclusively appears in Indonesian texts (which the average non-Indo/Malay reader of en.WP can't read), it adds little information value here.

Btw, clutter just invites more clutter, see hereKawi script. –Austronesier (talk) 10:19, 18 October 2021 (UTC)

Regardless of what people are doing in articles about German topics, I myself am a fan of including non-English language text in parentheses where the article refers to a specific foreign language concept or proper name of a thing, even if it adds to clutter. Perhaps in this specific case it can be trimmed down a bit by using the version of the language template that does not link to the Indonesian language article every single time. As in (satwa langka) vs (Indonesian: satwa langka). Dan Carkner (talk) 19:00, 18 October 2021 (UTC)

Big mess

Here's a challenge: History_of_the_Malay_language. One big ramble of barely decipherable musings. About as anti-wikipedia as you can get. Who's game? --Merbabu (talk) 23:55, 17 October 2021 (UTC)

Oof. I don't have it on hand (borrowed it from the library before) but I would definitely recommend The Indonesian Language: Its History and Role in Modern Society by James Sneddon as a reliable source for whoever wants to tackle this. It's a book-length history of it. --Dan Carkner (talk) 19:02, 18 October 2021 (UTC)

Created a few Presidential inauguration articles

Mind if someone group them in a single category?

More articles coming soon. Mhatopzz (talk) 12:54, 30 October 2021 (UTC)

National Hero Backlog Drive (again?)

So, there's four new figures named National Hero again Profil 4 Tokoh yang Mendapat Gelar Pahlawan Nasional 2021 this year. I've been thinking lately since many of National Hero biographies are barely start or stub, we probably could do a more organized backlog drive. As in, having barnstar as reward for it or something. It would be good if there's incentives for members of Wikiproject Indonesia to do deep researches on them and make this actual annual backlog drive like some big Wikiprojects did.

There's a dire need for reliable sources for these articles from books or historical records outside of articles about them in news when they are given the title. Given the fact that these figure's historical records and biographies were researched by TP2G in regional and national level consist of historians and actual academicians, Im sure we could find decent amount of information about them if we look hard enough.

What do you all think? Sorry for the tag @Mhatopzz @Dan Carkner @Jeromi Mikhael @Juxlos @Merbabu Nyanardsan (talk) 08:29, 3 November 2021 (UTC)

Sure, but I will leave it to him @The man from Gianyar. Mhatopzz (talk) 11:44, 3 November 2021 (UTC)

I'm currently juggling three different articles to work on, Ali Sastroamidjojo, History of Bandung, and Ali Wardhana, but I might be able to do Usmar Ismail, but that's pretty much it, @User:Mhatopzz @User:Nyanardsan The man from Gianyar (talk) 12:08, 3 November 2021 (UTC)

For Tombolotutu [id], there are at least two good sources:

Suwondo, Bambang (1984). Sejarah Daerah Sulawesi Tengah. Jakarta: Direktorat Jenderal Kebudayaan. (Bab V, B. Penyelenggaraan Hidup Dalam Masyarakat, 3. Gerakan perlawanan, p. 74–77)
Nourse, J. W. (1994). "Textbook Heroes and Local Memory: Writing the Right History in Central Sulawesi." Social Analysis: The International Journal of Social and Cultural Practice (35), 102–121.

If time allows, I'll try to write up something. I have some affinity to the topic since the Lauje language of Tinombo (Parigi Moutong Regency) is part of my wider research area, and I have thus become familiar with the ramifications of power between inner hill people, indigenous coastal groups, and non-indigenous coastal groups in that region. The article by Nourse gives an interesting alternative view to the official heroic historiography: as in other known cases, the non-indigenous aristocrat Tombolotutu turned into a rebel primarily not for idealistic reasons, but because the Dutch (supported by the indigenous elite) gave their favor to one of his rivals in the succession to the title or raja in the petty Kingdom of Moutong. –Austronesier (talk) 12:09, 3 November 2021 (UTC)

I'll try with Aji Muhammad Idris myself since Im quite familiar with history of East Kalimantan. Also btw what about establishing barnstar for this Wikiproject? Nyanardsan (talk) 12:43, 3 November 2021 (UTC)

There are no rules on barnstars - you can award someone a barnstar simply for existing, unless you want to design a, say “National Barnstar of Indonesia”. Juxlos (talk) 13:11, 3 November 2021 (UTC)

I can't say 17th-19th century local heroes is my area of knowledge, unfortunately. Juxlos (talk) 12:22, 3 November 2021 (UTC)

I will be trying to write a bunch of Indonesia-related articles for Wikipedia Asian Month 2021 anyways so I don't mind tackling the remaining one Raden Arya Wangsakara, even if he's not my usual type of research it shouldn't be too hard to summarize what is in print about him. Dan Carkner (talk) 16:40, 3 November 2021 (UTC)

I was starting to work based on the ID Wikipedia article about him but unless I'm mistaken it seems to be copy pasted directly from the Kompas article it cites as its only source. Sigh! Dan Carkner (talk) 23:18, 3 November 2021 (UTC)

I have created the article at Aria Wangsakara. There really wasn't anything about him in any of the databases I have access to; just some Indonesian books of dubious quality and news articles from the recent announcements. Dan Carkner (talk) 01:44, 5 November 2021 (UTC)