Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Eurovision/Archive 33
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Relegated countries on maps
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Putting a feeler out to gauge member thoughts on adding an additional shading option on participation maps between 1994 and 2003 (excluding 1996) for relegated countries. This would help to distinguish countries that decided against participating of their own accord versus those that were prevented from participating because of their previous results. I've included an example for the 1994 contest here, Italy remains in dark grey as a previous participating country that purposefully did not participate, whereas the other six countries which participated in 1993 but were relegated for 1994 are shown in a lighter shade of blue. Sims2aholic8 (talk) 23:09, 26 March 2024 (UTC)
- It makes perfect sense! ~ IvanScrooge98 (talk) 07:52, 27 March 2024 (UTC)
- Makes sense, but I'd rather opt for a shade of red rather than blue, as blue would indicate some sort of participation — IмSтevan talk 04:45, 29 March 2024 (UTC)
- I think since red is associated on other maps with competing in a semi-final or other qualification show, personally I would steer clear of this on these maps. I tried a few different shades before landing on this light blue because when I tried other colours with lighter shades I felt that this shading ended up being the more dominant colour on the map. A lighter shade of blue sorta makes sense to me as well given that the countries didn't compete not because of their decision but because of previous contest results prevented them from taking part, so another shade of blue sorta keeps a link with contest participation but without it being clear through a dark shade that they actually competed if that makes sense. Sims2aholic8 (talk) 09:57, 29 March 2024 (UTC)
- I honestly don't think that's useful. They didn't participate in the end so why bother. Yoyo360 (talk) 18:05, 29 March 2024 (UTC)
- They didn't participate because they couldn't and not because they necessarily chose to. It's about creating a distinction between countries that probably would have participated if they had the opportunity vs. countries that previously participated but purposefully chose not to compete the following year. In my opinion it also gives the reader more information in a concise way within the infobox than just stating the non-participating countries but without explaining the distinction. Looking at the map in tandem with the list of countries in the infobox you get a better sense of the reasoning behind why these countries did not participate at a glance, just as you would get with maps from 2004 onwards with countries eliminated in the semi-finals. Sims2aholic8 (talk) 20:24, 29 March 2024 (UTC)
- @Sims2aholic8 Well I don't agree. It's the exact same as highlighting countries that pulled out late. We should highlight what happened, not being like "these countries would probably have participated was it not for their relegation". Yoyo360 (talk) 17:57, 31 March 2024 (UTC)
- @Yoyo360: By shading relegated countries we are highlighting exactly what happened. These countries were relegated, they were unable to take part, and that is backed up by multiple sources, which specifically state that these countries were prevented from taking part. I think coupling relegated countries with every other country that didn't take part would be painting a less clear picture to the reader about the situation in those years. Sims2aholic8 (talk) 19:29, 31 March 2024 (UTC)
- @Sims2aholic8 Well I don't agree. It's the exact same as highlighting countries that pulled out late. We should highlight what happened, not being like "these countries would probably have participated was it not for their relegation". Yoyo360 (talk) 17:57, 31 March 2024 (UTC)
- They didn't participate because they couldn't and not because they necessarily chose to. It's about creating a distinction between countries that probably would have participated if they had the opportunity vs. countries that previously participated but purposefully chose not to compete the following year. In my opinion it also gives the reader more information in a concise way within the infobox than just stating the non-participating countries but without explaining the distinction. Looking at the map in tandem with the list of countries in the infobox you get a better sense of the reasoning behind why these countries did not participate at a glance, just as you would get with maps from 2004 onwards with countries eliminated in the semi-finals. Sims2aholic8 (talk) 20:24, 29 March 2024 (UTC)
- It makes sense. But red is consistent however, as countries eliminated in Kvalifikacija za Millstreet are also marked red. I'm still of the opinion that light red is the way to go here — IмSтevan talk 22:49, 29 March 2024 (UTC)
- That does make sense as well. To test this out I've changed the shading within the test file above to a shade of pink. Let me know your thoughts. I think I still prefer the light blue but the pink here isn't too overpowering in my opinion so it could work. Sims2aholic8 (talk) 09:38, 30 March 2024 (UTC)
- I have similar feelings. Both look fine but I also prefer the blue shade. ~ IvanScrooge98 (talk) 10:23, 30 March 2024 (UTC)
- Yeah the light red is just not it, it blends too well with the non participants and the background. What about the red we use for NQs? — IмSтevan talk 10:26, 30 March 2024 (UTC)
- I don't want to use the same shade as on the maps for 1993, 1996 and 2004 onwards. I feel that should be reserved only for cases where a country actually selected an entry that was in the competition. Using it for other meanings I think would lead to confusion. I know that 1993/1996 and 2004-present are different situations, but for all of these years the eliminated countries had entries, whether we count them officially or not, which is not the case with relegation. Sims2aholic8 (talk) 19:46, 30 March 2024 (UTC)
- That does make sense as well. To test this out I've changed the shading within the test file above to a shade of pink. Let me know your thoughts. I think I still prefer the light blue but the pink here isn't too overpowering in my opinion so it could work. Sims2aholic8 (talk) 09:38, 30 March 2024 (UTC)
- I honestly don't think that's useful. They didn't participate in the end so why bother. Yoyo360 (talk) 18:05, 29 March 2024 (UTC)
- I think since red is associated on other maps with competing in a semi-final or other qualification show, personally I would steer clear of this on these maps. I tried a few different shades before landing on this light blue because when I tried other colours with lighter shades I felt that this shading ended up being the more dominant colour on the map. A lighter shade of blue sorta makes sense to me as well given that the countries didn't compete not because of their decision but because of previous contest results prevented them from taking part, so another shade of blue sorta keeps a link with contest participation but without it being clear through a dark shade that they actually competed if that makes sense. Sims2aholic8 (talk) 09:57, 29 March 2024 (UTC)
Comment: @Sims2aholic8 Can Macedonia truly be considered relegated in 1997 ? They NQed in 96 but that did not count as a participation in the eyes of the EBU and they are not named in the source as relegated, so should they be light blue, light grey or dark grey ? Yoyo360 (talk) 12:29, 6 April 2024 (UTC)
- They were prevented from participating because of "their bad results in the past 5 years" (nq in 1996) so yeah it counts — IмSтevan talk 14:04, 6 April 2024 (UTC)
- Were they though ? This source, which is in the article does not list them as relegated (unlike Lux, Rom or Ltu which all were absent from 1996 one way or another) so that's ambiguousYoyo360 (talk) 15:33, 6 April 2024 (UTC)
- I understand the point you raised here. I had a similar thought on this before you raised the topic here, but I wasn't able to action on it before I went offline for a few days. I think the new wording which that ImStevan suggested works well here and clarifies the situation better than previously. Sims2aholic8 (talk) 21:10, 8 April 2024 (UTC)
Tables for semis
With the introduction of AQs into the semi-final running order (kind of), I believe it would be appropriate to label these countries within the shows, as we do with for example FiK and their pre-qualifiers. It's important to note that as is the case in FiK, these songs are a part of the contest itself, at the end of the day they are competing entries, not interval acts. My suggestion would look something like:
| Draw | Country | Artist | Song | Place | Points |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| 1 |  Croatia
|
Baby Lasagna | "Rim Tim Tagi Dim" | 1 | 1063 |
| 2 |  Cyprus
|
Silia Kapsis | "Liar" | 15 | 123 |
| 3 |  Ireland
|
Bambie Thug | "Doomsday Blue" | 4 | 765 |
| - |  Sweden
|
Marcus & Martinus | "Unforgettable" | Pre-qualified for the final | |
| 4 |  Lithuania
|
Silvester Belt | "Luktelk" | 3 | 675 |
| 5 |  Poland
|
Luna | "The Tower" | 11 | 200 |
| 6 |  Serbia
|
Teya Dora | "Ramonda" | 9 | 301 |
| 7 |  Ukraine
|
Alyona Alyona and Jerry Heil | "Teresa & Maria" | 12 | 199 |
| 8 |  Australia
|
Electric Fields | "One Milkali (One Blood)" | 10 | 199 |
| - |  United Kingdom
|
Olly Alexander | "Dizzy" | Pre-qualified for the final | |
| 9 |  Azerbaijan
|
Fahree | "Love Love Peace Peace" | 13 | 105 |
| 10 |  Finland
|
Windows95man | "No Rules!" | 9 | 342 |
| 11 |  Iceland
|
Hera Björk | "Scared of Heights" | 5 | 630 |
| 12 |  Luxembourg
|
Tali | "Fighter" | 2 | 999 |
| 13 |  Moldova
|
Natalia Barbu | "In the Middle" | 12 | 150 |
| 14 |  Portugal
|
Iolanda | "Grito" | 6 | 592 |
| 15 |  Slovenia
|
Raiven | "Veronika" | 3 | 807 |
| - |  Germany
|
Isaak | "Always on the Run" | Pre-qualified for the final | |
Thoughts? — IмSтevan talk 22:48, 11 March 2024 (UTC)
- The AQs are not entries in the semi-finals, so I don't think they should be included alongside semi-final participants. Grk1011 (talk) 00:41, 12 March 2024 (UTC)
- But they kinda are? Performing in the semi-final amongst all the other acts, they have been drawn to be in that semi, the producers will decide where in the running order they'll come, they are competing entries of ESC 2024; so how are they any different other than the fact that you can't vote for them and that they're prequalified for the final? — IмSтevan talk 01:06, 12 March 2024 (UTC)
- I would tend to agree with Grk1011. These entries are not competing in the semi-finals, so I don't believe they should be included within these tables. These tables' primary purpose is specifically the results of the shows; yes they are within the "Contest overview" section, and so all aspects of the show should be included within prose, however the tables do not need to contain every aspect of the show. We don't have rows for "flag parade" or "interval act 1" etc. as an example. Sims2aholic8 (talk) 08:51, 12 March 2024 (UTC)
- I knew there'd be a time when I agree with you. They're competing in the Final, not the Semi Final, so inclusion would not just confuse, it might mislead. doktorb wordsdeeds 09:48, 12 March 2024 (UTC)
- Seconding these replies. Doesn’t add anything but rather confuses. ~ IvanScrooge98 (talk) 10:20, 12 March 2024 (UTC)
- I concur. It does confuse me a bit. They're not in the semi, so why add them? Cheers, and carpe diem! Nascar9919 (he/him • t • c) 07:23, 15 March 2024 (UTC)
- Seconding these replies. Doesn’t add anything but rather confuses. ~ IvanScrooge98 (talk) 10:20, 12 March 2024 (UTC)
- I knew there'd be a time when I agree with you. They're competing in the Final, not the Semi Final, so inclusion would not just confuse, it might mislead. doktorb wordsdeeds 09:48, 12 March 2024 (UTC)
- I would tend to agree with Grk1011. These entries are not competing in the semi-finals, so I don't believe they should be included within these tables. These tables' primary purpose is specifically the results of the shows; yes they are within the "Contest overview" section, and so all aspects of the show should be included within prose, however the tables do not need to contain every aspect of the show. We don't have rows for "flag parade" or "interval act 1" etc. as an example. Sims2aholic8 (talk) 08:51, 12 March 2024 (UTC)
- But they kinda are? Performing in the semi-final amongst all the other acts, they have been drawn to be in that semi, the producers will decide where in the running order they'll come, they are competing entries of ESC 2024; so how are they any different other than the fact that you can't vote for them and that they're prequalified for the final? — IмSтevan talk 01:06, 12 March 2024 (UTC)
- I very much support this idea, especially since the official Eurovision channels acknowledged these being part of the running order in the reveals today. Usually these draw reveals also indicate the recap, so if during the contest they are also part of the recap, then that would be even more reason to add them.
- I disagree with it being confusing as they are literally entries being performed in the semi-finals; the only difference is that they automatically go though to the final. If the EBU decides that these countries get to perform in the semis (which is already confusing enough), then in my opinion it should also be somehow reflected in these tables.
- Here is my suggestion for now, and in the score columns I would put dashes (but that's my nitpicking). — TheThomanski | t | c | 19:47, 26 March 2024 (UTC)
- While the EBU has included the automatic finalists within the running order in the social media posts, they are not included on the official website's semi-final scoreboard pages, which are the equivalent of the results tables on the 2024 article. These tables are principally for the results of the shows, we don't have rows for any others acts performing, so why should we include rows in this case just because they are competing entries in a different show? Sims2aholic8 (talk) 19:53, 26 March 2024 (UTC)
- Agree with ImStevan here. They're essentially part of the running order as acts actually performing, and per the points above. It's a much better way to include them than to just have in text form "yeah they're performing between song X and song Y" at the top, three times. ser! (chat to me - see my edits) 16:29, 27 March 2024 (UTC)
- No different than an interval act. They're performing, but not competing in the semi-final. The table seeks to show the results of the semi-final. Grk1011 (talk) 16:30, 27 March 2024 (UTC)
- Completely disagree with you on the first part of that; they're clearly not the same as interval acts, which as I recall are performed after the songs are over rather than in the middle of them. I maintain my opinion that it looks dreadful to have a long verbiage of who they're performing before and after atop the table instead of just including them. ser! (chat to me - see my edits) 16:36, 27 March 2024 (UTC)
- I agree that the current wording is a bit cumbersome, but at the same time, as Grk1011 said, the purpose of the table is different—otherwise we would just have a numbered list—and I believe including the non-competing acts is more confusing than anything. ~ IvanScrooge98 (talk) 16:40, 27 March 2024 (UTC)
- Tried to slim the phrasing down a bit by replacing the country names with their running order. ~ IvanScrooge98 (talk) 16:46, 27 March 2024 (UTC)
- While I still believe they should be in the table, I support this endeavour to make the wording a bit less clunky. Could we even cut it down to just the entry they perform after? It does still look a bit funny to me but it'd be better than the previous version for sure. ser! (chat to me - see my edits) 16:54, 27 March 2024 (UTC)
- Thanks, Ser. Yes, that could be another valid option. Let’s see if someone else has objections or proposals. ~ IvanScrooge98 (talk) 17:04, 27 March 2024 (UTC)
- While I still believe they should be in the table, I support this endeavour to make the wording a bit less clunky. Could we even cut it down to just the entry they perform after? It does still look a bit funny to me but it'd be better than the previous version for sure. ser! (chat to me - see my edits) 16:54, 27 March 2024 (UTC)
- Tried to slim the phrasing down a bit by replacing the country names with their running order. ~ IvanScrooge98 (talk) 16:46, 27 March 2024 (UTC)
- I agree that the current wording is a bit cumbersome, but at the same time, as Grk1011 said, the purpose of the table is different—otherwise we would just have a numbered list—and I believe including the non-competing acts is more confusing than anything. ~ IvanScrooge98 (talk) 16:40, 27 March 2024 (UTC)
- Completely disagree with you on the first part of that; they're clearly not the same as interval acts, which as I recall are performed after the songs are over rather than in the middle of them. I maintain my opinion that it looks dreadful to have a long verbiage of who they're performing before and after atop the table instead of just including them. ser! (chat to me - see my edits) 16:36, 27 March 2024 (UTC)
- Agree with this point. Toffeenix (talk) 01:29, 29 March 2024 (UTC)
- Adding on, I think it makes complete sense to include them in the table and adds extra context for the reader. -77.102.82.71 (talk) 20:52, 31 March 2024 (UTC)
- No different than an interval act. They're performing, but not competing in the semi-final. The table seeks to show the results of the semi-final. Grk1011 (talk) 16:30, 27 March 2024 (UTC)
Comment: So...what are we doing here? I'd argue that the table is also meant to present the running order and the participating countries, which AQs are — IмSтevan talk 18:01, 6 April 2024 (UTC)
- If I made my count right, five intervened in favor and five against so I don’t know how we could work this out. I am personally still not convinced we should add them as the purpose of the table is to present the results rather than just the running order. ~ IvanScrooge98 (talk) 20:17, 6 April 2024 (UTC)
- I don't think the point was that this is supposed to be decided by a vote, but deciding if an average reader would benefit from that additional info in the table, which I believe would be the case. The page will likely see most traffic during Eurovision week and during the shows, I think it's valuable to have those 3 additional countries in the table to avoid confusion, even if they're mentioned in prose — IмSтevan talk 23:58, 6 April 2024 (UTC)
- Yes, I just meant we don’t have consensus for neither option at the moment. And I still think it looks more confusing to list them among the competing entries—that’s just me though. ~ IvanScrooge98 (talk) 09:52, 7 April 2024 (UTC)
- Here are my two cents: I agree with the "conservatives" in this respect, because:
- 1) the prequalified songs don't compete in the semi-finals, no-one can vote for them in the semis, and the table indeed is a results table
- 2) they are not part of the official running order
- 3) I also think their inclusion in the table would be confusing or misleading to readers
- It makes more sense to include information about their appearance in prose. EurovisionLibrarian (talk) 11:11, 7 April 2024 (UTC)
- These discussions are never votes; the outcome is determined based on the merits and consensus. I agree with EurovisionLibrarian and IvanScrooge98. It could make slightly more sense right now as the tables are titled Participants of... but they'll very soon be renamed Results of... and at that point including the non-competing acts of the respective semi-finals will make little sense. Grk1011 (talk) 15:36, 7 April 2024 (UTC)
- Yes, I just meant we don’t have consensus for neither option at the moment. And I still think it looks more confusing to list them among the competing entries—that’s just me though. ~ IvanScrooge98 (talk) 09:52, 7 April 2024 (UTC)
- I don't think the point was that this is supposed to be decided by a vote, but deciding if an average reader would benefit from that additional info in the table, which I believe would be the case. The page will likely see most traffic during Eurovision week and during the shows, I think it's valuable to have those 3 additional countries in the table to avoid confusion, even if they're mentioned in prose — IмSтevan talk 23:58, 6 April 2024 (UTC)
- A bit late to the discussion here, but I think they are best not being showcased in the table. I'm not sure we'll be able to properly indicate what their role are. Thomediter (talk) 20:17, 9 April 2024 (UTC)
I would suggest we wait and see how it is reflected on the night in both the broadcast of the entry itself (graphics, recap, etc) and review the situation then. Spa-Franks (talk) 20:55, 7 April 2024 (UTC)
Adding an explanation of what the abbreviation R/O means
So, I think that it's pretty shaky to just write R/O in the contest overview sections on the Eurovision pages. Just like on here, I think we should just add a * to explain what the abbreviation mean. I know you can just put your mouse cursor and see what it means on desktop, but wikipedia has a large user base on mobile, and they can't see what the abbreviation stands for. Thomediter (talk) 20:02, 9 April 2024 (UTC)
- As I was saying, I totally get the reasoning, being a mobile user myself. The problem is that this issue is much wider and affects mobile display as a whole – and thus all instances of {{abbr}}. If we added notes for all of them, it would be messy; so even if we agree that some degree explanation is worth providing this way to mobile readers, we need to discuss what we should indicate and what not. ~ IvanScrooge98 (talk) 20:16, 9 April 2024 (UTC)
- Good point. I think that the abbreviation such as ref. are way less crucial for readers to get the nessecary out of reading the articles, so I think we could either just let them keep being abbreviation with no explanation, or add an explanation of what that abbreviation stands for. Thomediter (talk) 20:19, 9 April 2024 (UTC)
- I understand your reasoning, however the difference here is that on the UEFA article the labels the key refers to are links, and not abbreviations that are used in these tables. I know they also explain on the UEFA article where they do have abbreviations, however I think adding the labels key in the way you did previously is rather messy. I've tried to incorporate this explanation within the prose in a better way, similar to how it was done on the UEFA article. This information was actually completely missing from the article before anyway, so it's good that we've added it now! Let me know your thoughts. Sims2aholic8 (talk) 20:39, 9 April 2024 (UTC)
- I definitely like it better, Sims. Thanks! ~ IvanScrooge98 (talk) 20:45, 9 April 2024 (UTC)
Requested move at Talk:Clifford Brown (Eurovision)#Requested move 6 April 2024
There is a requested move discussion at Talk:Clifford Brown (Eurovision)#Requested move 6 April 2024 that may be of interest to members of this WikiProject. RodRabelo7 (talk) 01:55, 13 April 2024 (UTC)
Maps on periphery articles
We currently have maps within the infoboxes on a few articles where the competition element was either non-existent or works different to Eurovision. Thinking in particular Congratulations: 50 Years of the Eurovision Song Contest (2005), Eurovision Song Contest's Greatest Hits (2015), and Eurovision: Europe Shine a Light (2020). There maps highlight countries which broadcast the stand-alone shows, or in the case of Congratulations distinguishing between countries that broadcast and voted vs. broadcast delayed, rather than highlighting participating countries in a competitive setting as with the usual ESC/JESC et al. articles. I get a sense that these maps are not particularly useful to the reader, and in fact could be misleading as sometimes broadcast plans are not always apparent. My preference would be removing these maps from the articles, however I wanted to gauge the thoughts of the WikiProject on this before any action was taken. Sims2aholic8 (talk) 13:52, 11 April 2024 (UTC)
- It does make sense to remove the maps, especially if info on the broadcasts is unclear. On the other hand, we could keep them and change their focus to countries whose songs “participated” in the shows, aligning with the header “participation map”—especially for Congratulations which had a winner. ~ IvanScrooge98 (talk) 09:08, 12 April 2024 (UTC)
- I can see the logic behind that too. My problem would be that for Congratulations there were two songs from Ireland and the UK, and two artists from Denmark and Sweden in Greatest Hits, so the number of participants would be different from the number of countries. Perhaps that's not as much of an issue though? I just feel the maps make sense when it's an actual competition with actual performances, but any other case there's probably no need. Even with Congratulations when there was an actual competitive event there weren't that many actual performances on stage by the actual artists to really justify a participation map imo. Sims2aholic8 (talk) 10:13, 12 April 2024 (UTC)
- Yeah, I see the point. I just thought that would have been at least a more consistent usage of the map—after all, songs from different countries are taking part, even if some countries have multiple “entries”. ~ IvanScrooge98 (talk) 10:56, 12 April 2024 (UTC)
- I'm not sure the maps are as useful for those events. They're move celebratory than competitive and probably should be using {{Infobox television}} or maybe even {{Infobox concert}}. Grk1011 (talk) 12:46, 12 April 2024 (UTC)
- That's actually a good point as well. It may make more sense to move to a different infobox template entirely, given that in the majority of cases these aren't even song contests in the normal sense. Sims2aholic8 (talk) 08:59, 15 April 2024 (UTC)
- I'm not sure the maps are as useful for those events. They're move celebratory than competitive and probably should be using {{Infobox television}} or maybe even {{Infobox concert}}. Grk1011 (talk) 12:46, 12 April 2024 (UTC)
- Yeah, I see the point. I just thought that would have been at least a more consistent usage of the map—after all, songs from different countries are taking part, even if some countries have multiple “entries”. ~ IvanScrooge98 (talk) 10:56, 12 April 2024 (UTC)
- I can see the logic behind that too. My problem would be that for Congratulations there were two songs from Ireland and the UK, and two artists from Denmark and Sweden in Greatest Hits, so the number of participants would be different from the number of countries. Perhaps that's not as much of an issue though? I just feel the maps make sense when it's an actual competition with actual performances, but any other case there's probably no need. Even with Congratulations when there was an actual competitive event there weren't that many actual performances on stage by the actual artists to really justify a participation map imo. Sims2aholic8 (talk) 10:13, 12 April 2024 (UTC)
ESC Reporter
Hey all, I've nominated an article on a former ESC blog for deletion. Your input would be appreciated; I could well be missing some sources or claim to notability. Thanks! — ser! (chat to me - see my edits) 14:53, 18 April 2024 (UTC)
ESC 2025 Map
Hey @ImStevan: You did not allow overwriting of the 2025 map. I wanted to add back San Marino and Malta and take away Luxembourg but I can't. Yoyo360 (talk) 20:37, 18 April 2024 (UTC)
