Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Baseball/Archive 46

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Duplicate articles on Luis A. Basabe

Luis Alejandro Basabe currently links to an entry on the page Arizona Diamondbacks minor league players (with a rather lengthy bio), while Luis Alexander Basabe is a stand-along page currently listing the player as being in the San Francisco Giants organization. Both biographies list the same date-of-birth and place-of-birth, and the links for Baseball-Reference (Minors) are the same (ID basabe001lui). Thus, it sure looks like this is one person, with (somehow) two biographies. I'm leaving this note here in hopes of someone knowledgeable about this player (or the minor league system he's actually with) being able to combine/merge into a single page in the "right" place. Thanks. Dmoore5556 (talk) 08:39, 24 February 2021 (UTC)

They are two different players in two different organizations. The BR pages are actually different (001 and 000). They are however twin brothers. Spanneraol (talk) 14:29, 24 February 2021 (UTC)
Thank you! I'll add a not-to-be-confused hatnote to each. Dmoore5556 (talk) 17:36, 24 February 2021 (UTC)

Baseball on the Main Page

For those of you creating and expanding high quality baseball content, remember that WP:DYK provides an opportunity to display your work on the Main Page. You can submit articles if you have a catchy hook and if the article meets one of the following three criteria: (1) newly created within the past seven days and 1500 characters of prose; (2) former stubs/redirects that have had a five-fold expansion in the past seven days; or (3) designated as a "Good Article" in the past seven days. For inspiration, here are some of the best baseball DYKs from the past 10 years:

Hailey Dawson
Liang Cheng
Deacon McGuire

Cbl62 (talk) 23:18, 2 March 2021 (UTC)

Cbl62, way ahead of you ;) – Muboshgu (talk) 01:37, 3 March 2021 (UTC)
I look forward to seeing what comes next. Cbl62 (talk) 01:42, 3 March 2021 (UTC)

Fun MLB.com article on independent leagues

Hi all—I don't know if anyone is doing much work on independent leagues these days in light of all the minor league reshuffling, but I wanted to flag this article from MLB.com, which has some interesting color on the Northeast League, which folded into the Can-Am League at some point. Hope everyone is doing well! Go Phightins! 14:40, 6 March 2021 (UTC)

Baseball card PRODs

Hello, WikiProject,

I just noticed that there are a lot of baseball card articles that have been PROD'd and are due to be deleted during the next 24 hours. You can see them at Category:Proposed deletion as of 22 March 2021. I know that baseball cards are not central to baseball, the sport, but I thought editors here might have an opinion about whether these articles should be saved. If "yes", remove the PROD, if they are unnecessary articles, just leave them be. Liz Read! Talk! 04:48, 29 March 2021 (UTC)

Request for Comment on SSN at WP:Notability (sports)

There is a discussion on SSN (sport specific guidelines) at RFC on Notability (sports) policy and reliability issues. Feel free to go there and post your comments. Cassiopeia(talk) 00:52, 30 March 2021 (UTC)

gd2.mlb.com access

Is anyone here (other than me) having trouble accessing MLB box scores at the gd2.mlb.com site? For example this link gives me an error "This XML file does not appear to have any style information associated with it. The document tree is shown below." I went back and tried links on that site from 2020 and am getting the same error (they used to work fine). Suggestions welcome. Thanks. Dmoore5556 (talk) 21:36, 2 April 2021 (UTC)

I have the same error on the link.Skilgis1900 (talk) 23:24, 4 April 2021 (UTC)

What is this gd2 link anyway? Why can't you just use the regular mlb.com box scores? Spanneraol (talk) 23:32, 4 April 2021 (UTC)
I don't know the origin of it, but it's been used on Boston Red Sox season articles since at least the 2013 edition (and all of those pre-existing links no longer work). When it worked, it displayed a concise single-page box score. Yep, for this season I'll change it. Dmoore5556 (talk) 23:49, 4 April 2021 (UTC)

Proposed change in sports notability policy

A proposal is pending that would prohibit the creation of sports biographies unless supported by "substantial coverage in at least one non-routine source". In other words, articles supported solely by statistical databases would not be permitted, and at least one example of WP:SIGCOV would be required to be included before an article could be created. If you have views on this proposal, one way or the other, you can express those views at Wikipedia talk:Notability (sports)#Fram's revised proposal. Cbl62 (talk) 18:49, 5 April 2021 (UTC)

List articles for teams with a single no hitter.

Now that the Padres finally have their first no-hitter, someone finally created a page for it. However, according to a prior discussion at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of Tampa Bay Rays no-hitters, a list of one item was deemed not worthy of a stand-alone article.

Your thoughts are appreciated at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of San Diego Padres no-hitters (2nd nomination).Canuck89 (Chat with me) 03:25, April 10, 2021 (UTC)

Baseball Hall of Fame photos

Hey, this might be a question thats been answered before, but I was curious whether anyone ever approached the Baseball Hall of Fame for explicit permission to use their photos. It would seem to further their mission, and I hate seeing guys like Moe Berg only depicted with a baseball card photo because every photo has been gobbled up by the evil rights hoarders over at Getty images. I'd be willing to reach out to them if it hasn't already been tried. Abovfold (talk) 20:14, 8 April 2021 (UTC)

I'd suggest reviewing Wikipedia:Donating copyrighted materials, if you've not already done so. As noted there: "Wikipedia does not accept material that claims 'this can be used in Wikipedia, but not anywhere else or in derivative works.' " Thus, the ask to HOF would need to be that they grant CC-BY-SA licensing on images, which (I suspect) isn't something they'd be inclined to agree to. I guess it doesn't hurt to ask, but the ask would need to be properly formed to yield a successful outcome. Dmoore5556 (talk) 02:41, 12 April 2021 (UTC)

Soroka

Hello all,

  1. As the Mike Soroka article has been improved, may I un-stub it?
  2. I am having an RfD on the redirect page Soroka because I personally think that Mike is the surname's primary topic. Feel free to comment there, even if you think Mike is not the primary topic.

Thank you, DePlume (talk) 04:33, 10 April 2021 (UTC)

Yeah, that's a pretty clear de-stub. Hog Farm Talk 04:49, 10 April 2021 (UTC)
Where do you think that the M.S. and Max Fried articles could go? Is it good enough for GA? If not, what is lacking? NotReallySoroka (talk) (formerly DePlume) 18:15, 16 April 2021 (UTC)
NotReallySoroka, Both probably need a little bit of summary style filling out to get to the GA level. You might have a look at some recent starting pitchers who have gotten to GA such as Aaron Nola and Zach Eflin for two potential models. Go Phightins! 18:40, 16 April 2021 (UTC)
Go Phightins! "Summary style filling out" = ? Thank you, NotReallySoroka (talk) (formerly DePlume) 19:38, 16 April 2021 (UTC)
NotReallySoroka, Sorry, they have a lot of information strung together, but are not necessarily written in summary style and could benefit from incorporating any more contextual media coverage (e.g., feature articles, end-of-season reviews, etc.), I think. Also, personal life / early life could potentially be expanded a bit. Go Phightins! 19:44, 16 April 2021 (UTC)
Go Phightins! I have tried expanding the early life section using existing sources. Someone who is NotReallySoroka (talk) (formerly DePlume) 23:14, 16 April 2021 (UTC)
Keep in mind MOS:NUMERAL. I see single digit numbers in digit form, while "60" is spelled out. Also, update for 2021 (starting the year on the injured list). – Muboshgu (talk) 19:53, 16 April 2021 (UTC)
Muboshgu I will think about his '21 season later. For now, I have changed the numerals, but please see html comments on the Soroka page for some problems of mine. NotReallySoroka (talk) (formerly DePlume) 23:14, 16 April 2021 (UTC)
Don't forget the talk page ratings when you uprate an article. – Muboshgu (talk) 18:50, 16 April 2021 (UTC)
I have made some changes. Please take a look, NotReallySoroka (talk) (formerly DePlume) 00:59, 17 April 2021 (UTC)

MLB Teams Roster Inbox fixes

Hello and good day. An editor (unknown, not in edit history) decided to alter the roster inboxes of some major league teams (i.e. 1903 Cleveland Naps, 1903 Detroit Tigers) with unnecesary spacing between all players, pitchers, managers and coaches. Of course I can fix this myself, but hundreds of roster inboxes have been changed since the 1873 MLB season (did some myself). Does anyone know a computer program on Wikipedia to fix this issue quickly as it would take me a couple of months to repair them. Thank you for your time.2601:581:8402:6620:A473:D32E:674D:D57 (talk) 14:21, 17 April 2021 (UTC)

I see 1903 Cleveland Naps season#Roster has the extra spaces you mentioned, but in preview mode it looks fine. Very strange! --Jameboy (talk) 19:19, 20 April 2021 (UTC)
Removing the asterisk (bullet point) in front of each {{MLBplayer... seems to fix it. The bullet point is already included within Template:MLBplayer itself so adding another one seems to be what caused the formatting issue. No idea why the error isn't picked up in preview mode though. It's especially odd given that the template hasn't been edited for two years. I've fixed the roster for 1903 Cleveland Naps season and will look out for others. --Jameboy (talk) 21:20, 20 April 2021 (UTC)
The asterisk was added to the template in 2010.. most of these team rosters were done on the historical pages before that... I know that cause I did most of them back in 2008-2009. There was some sort of spacing parameter in the table that the other editor removed that seemed to have caused the issue but yea removing the asterisk can fix it. Spanneraol (talk) 21:34, 20 April 2021 (UTC)

Old featured article tuneups

There's a systematic process of re-reviewing older featured articles going on at WP:URFA/2020. Some of the older ones not fully processed through are baseball articles. Dr Pepper Ballpark and Sandy Koufax have been determined to be fairly satisfactory. If someone could look at those two, determine if they think they are still satisfactory as FAs, and then mark their satisfactory/needs work statement on the table at URFA/2020, that would be much appreciated.

Also noting that Lee Smith (baseball) is an older FA that has been found to have some sourcing issues. Smith is a HOF'er, so it would be nice to get that article fixed up. I think it will take a good bit of effort, though, as there's some uncited text, as well as concerns about text-source integrity. 19:05, 20 April 2021 (UTC) Hog Farm Talk 19:05, 20 April 2021 (UTC)

@Hog Farm: just a note that there was an editor involved at fixing Koufax which isn't reflected on the URFA page. Best, Barkeep49 (talk) 20:59, 22 April 2021 (UTC)

Former Minor League Baseball stadiums

What category should be used for stadiums which were once used for minor league baseball, but no longer are, but are still in existence? Some of them, like Jack Kaiser Stadium are in Category:Defunct minor league baseball venues but others like Damaschke Field are in Category:Minor league baseball venues. I am trying to figure out what category to put Terwilliger Brothers Field at Max Bishop Stadium in as it briefly played host to the Bowie BaySox, but am unsure. Perhaps we should create a new category, Category:Venues formerly used for minor league baseball for cases like this? Smartyllama (talk) 17:48, 22 April 2021 (UTC)

What about creating Category:Former minor league baseball venues? This is similar to our use of Category:X League teams, Category:Former X League teams, and Category:Defunct X League teams. NatureBoyMD (talk) 12:47, 25 April 2021 (UTC)
That could work. Smartyllama (talk) 13:08, 26 April 2021 (UTC)
I think that's the best way. Keep the plain Category:Minor league baseball venues for ballparks that currently house a team, while the new "former" category is for still-standing ballparks without a current professional team (ex minor league parks now hosting collegiate summer teams are not minor league parks anymore, as "minor league" is specifically professional, and includes both affiliate and independent leagues). Leave the "defunct" category for demolished ballparks. oknazevad (talk) 16:12, 26 April 2021 (UTC)

Update severely needed

List of baseball players who defected from Cuba needs a good bit of updating work. It's very late where I am, so I don't really have the ability to fix this myself immediately (will try to work on this soon), but this article needs lots of updating. For instance, Lourdes Gurriel Jr., who is currently playing for the Blue Jays, is not listed as an active player, while José Contreras, who seems to have last played professional ball in 2016 in the Mexican League, is listed as active. And José Abreu (baseball) is listed as only having played in 8 major league seasons, while he's been in the MLB for the last 8. So this list needs an overhaul.

Also, where would be a good source to check for completeness on this list? As out-of-date as parts of it are, I fear that it may not be complete. Hog Farm Talk 06:14, 29 April 2021 (UTC)

Okay, so I've got the stuff updated, although sometimes it was a little ambiguous if the player was still active or not. What would be a good way to check the list for completeness? Hog Farm Talk 15:12, 29 April 2021 (UTC)
Baseball Alamanac shows 217 players from Cuba past and present Hog Farm while Baseball Reference shows 218. So it is clearly around that number though they may define things differently than we do since it may include people from before we'd label it a "defection". Best, Barkeep49 (talk) 15:50, 29 April 2021 (UTC)

Standalone article on Class A?

There are currently standalone articles on Triple-A (baseball) and Double-A (baseball)—thoughts on whether there would be benefit in creating/splitting-out a Class A (Single-A) article? I ask because Class A (baseball) currently redirects readers into the Minor League Baseball section on Low-A, which is a very recent embodiment of a classification that has existed for over 100 years. Thanks. Dmoore5556 (talk) 03:54, 20 March 2021 (UTC)

My own gut feeling is that a stand-alone article is probably warranted, though truthfully I'm not sure the existing articles on AAA and AA are particularly good models for what we'd want those sorts of articles to be. Seems there's a strong bias towards recent/current structures rather than a more historical look. I wonder what kind of historical coverage the various levels have from other secondary/tertiary sources ... Go Phightins! 12:49, 21 March 2021 (UTC)

I agree that a stand-alone is warranted, great idea. Class A in the "old" classification structure was the highest minor league level, what AAA is now. Then, add in that the "new" Class A divided into Low-A and High-A and there a lot of benefits to a page explaining Class A. The minor league classifications all have interesting history and with currently changing terminology and league designs, it is a good time to have the information available. It would be greatly beneficial to baseball readers to have a Class A page. Skilgis1900 (talk) 18:28, 24 March 2021 (UTC)

Thanks for the feedback. I will find time to work on it this week. History will likely be thin at first (as is the case for the current Triple-A and Double-A articles) but hopefully can be expanded over time. My go-to source for minor league information continues to be The Encyclopedia of Minor League Baseball (3rd edition), which will definitely be helpful for this effort. Thanks. Dmoore5556 (talk) 02:27, 12 April 2021 (UTC)
Belated update: Class A (baseball) and Class A-Advanced articles have been created. I plan to add additional history into each of those, to summarize the various leagues that were classified at those levels (beyond basic info already presented), as time allows. I was also able to add some history to the Triple-A (baseball) and Double-A (baseball) articles. I'm thinking to also setup a stand-alone article for Class A-Short Season, which is currently a redirect into the general Minor League Baseball article. While Class A-Short Season was eliminated as of this year, it was active for over 50 years (established in 1965). Suggestions and feedback welcome. Thanks. Dmoore5556 (talk) 21:21, 30 April 2021 (UTC)
Dmoore5556, Great stuff, and wholeheartedly support a short season standalone, especially given the coverage around the minor league massacre ... er, reorganization ... that occurred this year. Thanks for taking the lead on this! Go Phightins! 21:47, 30 April 2021 (UTC)

Name changes on Baseball Reference

Baseball Reference is changing the names of players in their database to reflect their actual names instead of their nicknames [1]. Should we be following their approach with people like Dummy Hoy and Chief Meyers? - Spanneraol (talk) 22:31, 2 May 2021 (UTC)

IMO, whatever secondary sources use (ie books, newspaper accounts, etc), we should use. If a player is known more by a nickname than a given name, we should go by the nickname. Therapyisgood (talk) 22:35, 2 May 2021 (UTC)
Yeah, I tend to think WP:COMMONNAME probably points towards keeping nicknames where they are the most common way a player is identified in the secondary literature. If more than just B-R starts going in this direction, maybe worth revisiting? But for now, I'd be inclined to follow newspaper articles, contemporaneous rosters, etc. Go Phightins! 22:45, 2 May 2021 (UTC)
The background discussion here makes a good point that some identifying names, originally established by the MacMillan Baseball Encyclopedia, aren't necessarily supported by review of secondary sources (Lefty Hayden being the example given). For such cases, changing article names can and should be handled on a case-by-case basis (which includes discussion and reaching consensus), which is not new, in my view. I'm generally not in favor of changing "distasteful" names when they are supported by secondary sources and accurately reflect what the player was known as during their professional career. Dmoore5556 (talk) 23:09, 2 May 2021 (UTC)
I guess I should put a bit of a finer point on my comment ... I would not be in favor of a wholesale change a la B-R at this point, though in specific cases, it might be worth examining whether COMMONNAME violates NPOV or (if applicable) BLP. I guess it's probably the case that for many of these players from a bygone era, there's not going to be much new secondary literature to examine over time. Go Phightins! 23:24, 2 May 2021 (UTC)
newspapers.com (noted in the above linked discussion about Lefty Hayden) has a surprising (to me) amount of content going back at least as far as the beginnings of the National League (1876). I've had an account there for a while; if/when there are specific names that warrant a look, I'd be happy to help out. Dmoore5556 (talk) 23:40, 2 May 2021 (UTC)
I think the issue is that the nicknames were established by MacMillan and were not as commonly used in contemporary sources. Might be worth examining some of them as most of the article titles we have on here were matched from BR originally. Spanneraol (talk) 23:47, 2 May 2021 (UTC)
The discussion at B-R wandered (in my view) between unsupported nicknames (e.g. Lefty Hayden) and distasteful nicknames (e.g. Dummy Hoy). And there may be cases where a nickname is both. Anyhow, if there are specific names that would benefit from a look on newspapers.com, to see what naming was used when a player was active, I'm happy to take a look at a few (not sure yet how long it will take) and advise back. Dmoore5556 (talk) 23:58, 2 May 2021 (UTC)
There's been a couple I've written where I've went a different name route than B-R specifically because sources of their time gave me something completely different and I can't find anything verifying what B-R has. While I can understand some of them (the one-game or one-season guys it's probably immaterial what is used), the Chief Bender example they use is one I wouldn't change, I mean the books on him say precisely that. Wizardman 01:21, 3 May 2021 (UTC)
I agree that we need to take it on a case-by-case basis. Some, like Chief Bender, likely shouldn't be moved per COMMONNAME. Yet the example they gave of Lefty Hayden seems like a clear case of one where we should move the page. Spanneraol is right, B-Ref was a big factor in the naming of these pages at the inception of Wikipedia. – Muboshgu (talk) 01:26, 3 May 2021 (UTC)

I suggest following the spirit of WP:NPOVTITLE: Notable circumstances under which Wikipedia often avoids a common name for lacking neutrality include ... Colloquialisms where far more encyclopedic alternatives are obvious. Most of the nicknames are quite dated, and would take oft-referral in sources to justify them in respective WPs titles. The U.S. is still coming to grips with Native American references, perhaps making those somewhat less offensive for some.—Bagumba (talk) 02:16, 3 May 2021 (UTC)

Links to baseball year articles in infobox?

Hi folks—question ... I have noticed several edits like this one coming by script lately, and I am a bit puzzled. My understanding was that we did include links either to the by or mlby article as appropriate (and perhaps that by should be changed to mlby?). In any case, the unlinking seems a bit unproductive ... I see it is being done by script, so I am not sure if what we really need is a script update or whether I am just misremembering what the project consensus is/was from the last time I remember a discussion of this. Pinging Yankees10, in particular, as someone who strikes me might know. Thanks!! Go Phightins! 17:03, 2 May 2021 (UTC)

I vaguely remember something similiar, forget which sport. First of all, people who use scripts are responsible for their edits, so I would bring it to their attention so they can do a double check before saving. In turn, it might prompt them to notify the script writer (or you can proactively do that too). As an aside, the link to {{by}} is an MOS:OVERLINK, as it's much too general compared to the MLB article, and one could argue even that fails MOS:LEADLINK.—Bagumba (talk) 17:51, 2 May 2021 (UTC)
The infobox link to the mlb year is appropriate.. the in article random link to the year that they removed is not. Spanneraol (talk) 18:31, 2 May 2021 (UTC)
I personally do not favour years within prose to be linked. I know some people support linking them to corresponding individual team seasons or the MLB year, but I think this is counter to the guidance on keeping links transparent and not link to unanticipated locations for general readers who may be unfamiliar with the topic. If readers lose faith in following links, then the utility of Wikipedia is diminished for them. isaacl (talk) 18:59, 2 May 2021 (UTC)
In a bio, I think years should generally only link to the related team season, if linked at all. If baseball bios had stats tables, one could argue a reader could just go there to readily get to a specific team season.—Bagumba (talk) 19:07, 2 May 2021 (UTC)
Right, I agree with that on links in prose. My question was more whether we had a consensus for in infoboxes ... I thought we did and it was to use the MLB year template, which is why I was surprised when I got a slightly snippy response after undoing an edit here suggesting that it be taken to the programmer ... I don't really have a strong opinion in any direction; team season articles, MLB season articles, or unlinking are fine, I'm just worried that we are going to end up with a hodgepodge of things that's not helpful to anyone if we don't have a project consensus that we work to implement (perhaps by script). Go Phightins! 19:11, 2 May 2021 (UTC)
The project consensus is to link it to the mlb year template. Spanneraol (talk) 19:13, 2 May 2021 (UTC)
Spanneraol, OK, that's good information (and that's what I thought). Anyone have any idea how/when this script got a baseball-related task added to its arsenal? Wondering if maybe it thinks by is something other than baseball year? Go Phightins! 19:15, 2 May 2021 (UTC)
Or maybe it's just a coincidence that is just in these two articles where the script was used for a related edit? I guess maybe there was a by template in text in the one that would make sense to flag ... I guess maybe it's just one editor who seems to be removing the links from the infoboxes separately. Go Phightins! 19:23, 2 May 2021 (UTC)
The script's detailed functional overview says that it removes year linking templates. It is supposedly written to adhere to WP:MOSNUM, but I'm not clear that that's forbidden. – Muboshgu (talk) 19:28, 2 May 2021 (UTC)
Well, evidently these are script-based edits that are happening. [2] I suppose this requires a ping to Ohconfucius about why the script has a task that is against the project consensus? Go Phightins! 13:00, 3 May 2021 (UTC)
Situation resolved in the short term, it appears [3]. Hopefully a bit of clarity and/or a script fix from Ohconfucius will get this the rest of the way resolved. Thanks everyone for your help with this! Go Phightins! 13:21, 3 May 2021 (UTC)

I have just now adjusted the script to disable the removal of baseball templates. Let me know if this hasn't fixed the issue you have highlighted. -- Ohc ¡digame! 20:53, 4 May 2021 (UTC)

Ohconfucius, Thanks! I don't know if it's possible to distinguish between infoboxes and in text, but I think this particular issue is mainly just in infoboxes. It might still be worth highlighting existence of the by template in text as an easter egg, but if it's not possible to distinguish, probably better to err on the side of false negatives and manually correcting the rare cases where this pops up in text. Appreciate your help!! Go Phightins! 21:01, 4 May 2021 (UTC)
No, I have not yet worked out a way to limit the template removal, so it has to be disabled wholescale for now. That's until I have identified (maybe with your help) unique strings that point to easter egg links, of which I know there are plenty, unfortunately. -- Ohc ¡digame! 21:20, 4 May 2021 (UTC)

History of the Baltimore Orioles

I encountered History of the Baltimore Orioles while cleaning out unexplained or poorly-justified {{expert needed}} tags. Apparently, there was concern a while back about the article being a content fork of the main Baltimore Orioles article. A lot of the article is unreferenced and may contain original research. What, if anything, should be done with this article? –LaundryPizza03 (dc̄) 03:50, 16 May 2021 (UTC)

The standard unsourced/OR in WP. It's not a fork; Baltimore Orioles should only have a few paragraphs summarizing the history, leaving the details for History of the Baltimore Orioles and the individual season pages.—Bagumba (talk) 06:02, 16 May 2021 (UTC)

Category:Los Angeles Angels of Anaheim players has been nominated for discussion

Category:Los Angeles Angels of Anaheim players has been nominated for possible deletion, merging, or renaming. A discussion is taking place to decide whether this proposal complies with the categorization guidelines. If you would like to participate in the discussion, you are invited to add your comments at the category's entry on the categories for discussion page. Thank you. Natg 19 (talk) 20:45, 17 May 2021 (UTC)

50+ files with bad fair use rationale

Jonteemil is planning on bringing 50+ cap logos to FfD: Category talk:Cap logos. NatureBoyMD seems to have uploaded/updated many of them. — Alexis Jazz (talk or ping me) 00:45, 20 May 2021 (UTC)

Rename proposals

Notes

I am working have worked through the list of players discussed on Baseball-Reference.com here. In instances where the current Wikipedia page name is inconsistent with contemporary reporting (assessed via newspapers.com), suggested renames were opened and added above. Other instances are listed below.

Most recent update: Dmoore5556 (talk) 09:24, 20 May 2021 (UTC)

Major League Baseball Reliever of the Month Award

MLB has issued a Reliever of the Month award since 2017, as listed by Baseball-Reference and Baseball Almanac, here and here. Winners are reported in MLB news stories (example), although it is not included in the index of awards on MLB.com (see the drop-down menu here) for unknown reasons.

There's no corresponding page here on Wikipedia; it appears it would be appropriate to create Major League Baseball Reliever of the Month Award. Thoughts? Note that there was a DHL Delivery Man Of The Month Award given from 2005 to 2013, the results of which currently appear within Major League Baseball Reliever of the Year Award—perhaps the DHL monthly winners table should be moved into the new page (if there is consensus to create it)? Input welcome. Thanks. Dmoore5556 (talk) 05:59, 20 May 2021 (UTC)

Seems obvious that we should make the page. O.N.R. (talk) 04:17, 21 May 2021 (UTC)
There was a weak consensus to separate the DHL awards before here, but I never followed up. Historically, before the new Reliever of the Year Awards, the DHL annual and monthly award were on the same page, but I don't think we necessarily need to tie ourelves to that.—Bagumba (talk) 05:18, 21 May 2021 (UTC)
I'm going to create the page, and will populate with winners since 2017. I'll also move the prior DHL monthly winners there; we can see how that approach works. Thanks. Dmoore5556 (talk) 22:24, 21 May 2021 (UTC)
To be honest, I think the better approach is to have a Delivery Man Awards page for yearly and monthly winners and a Major League Baseball Reliever of the Year and Month Awards. Y2Kcrazyjoker4 (talk • contributions) 23:20, 21 May 2021 (UTC)
Major League Baseball Reliever of the Month Award has been created, and populated through April 2021 winners. Reliever of the X Awards could be grouped either way, or split out into 4 independent pages (month/year x current/past). Grouping these awards by their "size" (e.g. reliever of the month) as compared to branding ("Delivery Man") seems more meaningful to me. That said, it can be done either way... but I really dislike the "of the Year and Month Awards" phrasing. Dmoore5556 (talk) 04:35, 22 May 2021 (UTC)
I've split out the Delivery Man of the Year to Major League Baseball Delivery Man of the Year Award.—Bagumba (talk) 08:31, 22 May 2021 (UTC)
That presents very well—likewise, I've now also split out Major League Baseball Delivery Man of the Month Award. Dmoore5556 (talk) 17:38, 22 May 2021 (UTC)

RM for Gold Glove

An editor has requested for Rawlings Gold Glove Award to be moved to Gold Glove Award. Since you had some involvement with Rawlings Gold Glove Award, you might want to participate in the move discussion (if you have not already done so). —Bagumba (talk) 07:51, 27 May 2021 (UTC)

FAr for Lee Smith

I have nominated Lee Smith (baseball) for a featured article review here. Please join the discussion on whether this article meets featured article criteria. Articles are typically reviewed for two weeks. If substantial concerns are not addressed during the review period, the article will be moved to the Featured Article Removal Candidates list for a further period, where editors may declare "Keep" or "Delist" the article's featured status. The instructions for the review process are here. Hog Farm Talk 22:13, 29 May 2021 (UTC)

Minor leaguers

I was very surprised to see Patrick Leonard (baseball) kept, which I thought would be a very easy deletion as he fails WP:NBASE and wasn't a notable minor leaguer. I've been AfDing players with the notability tag who I don't think I can rescue - what should I be looking for in a notable minor leaguer? SportingFlyer T·C 17:04, 2 June 2021 (UTC)

WP:GNG supersedes NBASE. Minor leaguers judged to have enough significant coverage will be kept. – Muboshgu (talk) 17:07, 2 June 2021 (UTC)
I understand that, but the vast majority of minor league coverage is WP:ROUTINE, otherwise every minor leaguer would be notable based on local coverage. SportingFlyer T·C 17:09, 2 June 2021 (UTC)
Many that I've seen are features that cover the subject in depth. If they get at least one in high school, one in college if applicable, and at some of their minor league stops, it can become enough. – Muboshgu (talk) 19:11, 4 June 2021 (UTC)

"Eastern League" article names

Quick naming proposal, for which feedback is welcome. Historically, there have been three unrelated US-based minor leagues (now all defunct) known as the "Eastern League", along with a minor league in Japan of the same name. I propose renaming the existing Wikipedia pages about the US-based minor leagues, to use year ranges. This would be consistent with existing page names such as Atlantic League (1896–1900), Northwestern League (1905–1917), and South Atlantic League (1904–1963). While such disambiguation for minor leagues is not universal, I find it to be the most clear and intuitive. With that background, proposed changes:

Existing names would continue to serve as redirects to the new names. I also suggest creating one new redirect:

Dmoore5556 (talk) 00:01, 23 May 2021 (UTC)

I support those names; they seem to be the most logical choices. I would make the most recent league "Eastern League (1938–2020)" since 2020 would have been its final season had it not been for the pandemic. NatureBoyMD (talk) 02:31, 23 May 2021 (UTC)
Support all proposed names as well as using 2020 as the end date of the most recent Eastern League. The reader is more likely to be interested in the seasons during which the league operated (or intended to) rather than the years it existed as an organization. I would also recommend that whatever is done to the EL articles is also done to the Southern League (SL) ones: its league name is also a dab page, and the page with a "(baseball)" suffix also refers to the most recent SL. I may even volunteer to help! Waz8:T-C-E 02:14, 30 May 2021 (UTC)
  • All of the links on the dab page with the name "Eastern League" are baseball leagues -- one league had "(baseball)" as the dab; shouldn't that page be the primary topic and the dab page moved to "Eastern League (disambiguation)"?
    Pageviews (last 30 days):
    Eastern League = 60
    Eastern League (baseball) = 4366, proposed primary topic
    Eastern League (1884) = 166
    Eastern League (1916) = 75
    Eastern League (Japanese baseball) = 631
  • Otherwise, completely support using date ranges (with en dash & 4-digit years) as non-controversial page moves. Rgrds. --Bison X (talk) 18:31, 23 May 2021 (UTC)
  • Update — from the above set of comments, I believe we have consensus in support of non-controversial renames of the two non-modern Eastern Leagues to incorporate four-digit year ranges:
    • Eastern League (1884) --> Eastern League (1884–1887)
    • Eastern League (1916) --> Eastern League (1916–1932)

I will rename (move) the above two pages accordingly in the next few days.

For the modern Eastern League, I believe Bison X is suggesting that Eastern League (baseball) become Eastern League per WP:PRIMARYTOPIC. I want to give that one some thought. I will also take a look at Southern League as noted by Waz8. I will likely follow-up with a new thread to re-set additional discussion on the naming for those two leagues. Thanks all. Dmoore5556 (talk) 05:39, 7 June 2021 (UTC)

A Dying Cub Fan's Last Request

I converted this from a redirect to its own entry. I'd appreciate anyone's contributions. I may not end up with enough material for a GA nomination, but I would at least like to expand it beyond Start-class. I don't have much experience with music-related articles, so I may also reach out to WT:SONGS as well. Larry Hockett (Talk) 03:49, 6 June 2021 (UTC)

Thought of the worst when I saw this headline, assumed it was some desperate plea to get an article up to GA or FA status or expanded. Therapyisgood (talk) 21:39, 6 June 2021 (UTC)
I thought of the worst, but expected a minimal stub. Instead, I found a well-written, informative article. (GAs etc. are beyond my expertise, so I can't comment on that aspect.) Good work! You might consider filing for a DYK on the front page. BilCat (talk) 22:28, 6 June 2021 (UTC)
Well done. I'm not a Cubs fan but have always had a soft spot for this song and Goodman. Echoedmyron (talk) 23:04, 6 June 2021 (UTC)
I wasn't familiar with the song at all—recording here for anyone else in the same boat. I'll re-read it tomorrow and see if I can contribute anything. Dmoore5556 (talk) 06:40, 7 June 2021 (UTC)

Protested games no longer allowed

FYI, as I had not seen or heard about this, but starting with the 2020 official MLB rules (and carried over into the 2021 edition) protested games are no longer allowed. Rule 7.04, which governs protests, now reads: "Protesting a game shall never be permitted, regardless of whether such complaint is based on judgement decisions by the umpire or an allegation that an umpire misapplied these rules or otherwise rendered a decision in violation of these rules." If anyone sees reporting/commentary about this, perhaps giving some context as to why MLB made the change, I'd be interested to see it. Thanks. Dmoore5556 (talk) 01:27, 9 June 2021 (UTC)

Sourcing issue with blown save statistics

There is a section on blown saves in the leaders/records section of Save (baseball)—see here. Sourcing is credited to The ESPN Baseball Encyclopedia of 2008. I went looking for more contemporary sourcing to update the section, and have not been able to find anything solid for single-season or career blown saves totals. This is likely because the blown save is not an official MLB statistic (even though it appears in box scores). The usual suspects of BR/Retro/etc. also don't include blown saves in their historical stats pages, at least that I can find. This note is to ask if anyone knows of a reliable source for (reasonably) up-to-date blown saves statistic? If not, I believe the sections in question should likely be removed, as they are based on sourcing that is over a decade out-of-date, and many blown saves have happened during that timeframe. Dmoore5556 (talk) 03:12, 7 June 2021 (UTC)

@Dmoore5556: - An indirect method could be to take save opportunities - saves, but that doesn't work for the older ballplayers where save opportunities isn't always recorded, and it has a touch of the original research to it. This Fangraphs article is an interesting read - it talks about how different sources have different ways of calculating blown saves, so it's not always even going to be uniform between sources. My instinct would be to remove unless there's a solid source I'm not aware of. Hog Farm Talk 03:34, 7 June 2021 (UTC)
Re: the Fangraphs article, the gray area is a entering in the 7th inning or before and blowing a 4+ run lead. For the types of relievers racking up lots of save opportunities that might get a lot of blown saves, it's quite unlikely any modern reliever will face many of those scenarios in their career.—Bagumba (talk) 07:10, 7 June 2021 (UTC)
In all liklihood, the leaders haven't changed. Since the mid-80s, managers didn't put their closers in with runners on base in tight games, and the number of blown saves consequently dropped considerably. (I haven't followed baseball as much recently, so not sure if analytics has changed usage much).—Bagumba (talk) 05:52, 7 June 2021 (UTC)
On another note, the various save lists should probably be converted to standalone lists, making the save page a bit less MLB and stats-list centric.—Bagumba (talk) 05:55, 7 June 2021 (UTC)
Quick update that this 2013 article on MLB.com by Tracy Ringolsby discusses blown saves in a season, and it doesn't agree with the table in the Saves article. He wrote "Rollie Fingers holds the record of 15 blown saves in 1976 with Oakland... There have been eight pitchers blow 13 or more saves in a season..." The current table has no pitcher with more than 14, and there are 10 players listed with 13+. Dmoore5556 (talk) 06:21, 7 June 2021 (UTC)
There's always the possbility of an error. FWIW, Finger's b-r.com game logs shows him with 14.[4].—Bagumba (talk) 06:37, 7 June 2021 (UTC)
Thanks for checking that—I'll go through the 10 players listed in the by-season table to check their totals for applicable seasons on B-R. I don't see that B-R makes career blown save totals available though. Dmoore5556 (talk) 21:42, 7 June 2021 (UTC)
Update I finally found that B-R's Stathead statistical search engine (subscription required; first month free) includes Blown Save stats, both for seasons and careers. I've checked and updated both tables with stats through the 2020 season. The single-season table was correct. The career table had the correct players listed, but had two incorrect totals (for Jeff Reardon and Gene Garber) which I've corrected. Dmoore5556 (talk) 05:47, 10 June 2021 (UTC)
Dmoore5556: Great. I wouldn't have guessed that Stathead had stats that are not on its regular page. Since you added the pitcher's save along with their blown saves, is there any way to show the save % in the results? Otherwise, I guess we could calculate it.—Bagumba (talk) 08:05, 10 June 2021 (UTC)
Bagumba, yes, there is a Save % field for pitching stats; I'll add that to both of the blown saves tables. Dmoore5556 (talk) 15:25, 10 June 2021 (UTC)

58 non-free files of cap logos at FfD

 You are invited to join the discussion at Wikipedia:Files for discussion/2021 June 5#Files in Category:Cap logos. — Alexis Jazz (talk or ping me) 11:25, 5 June 2021 (UTC)

While this large discussion has been closed, I have renominated a specific single file from this bundle. Hog Farm Talk 04:00, 13 June 2021 (UTC)

"This should be the biggest scandal in sports"

This article is a good read, and had me thinking about how to incorporate it into articles. MLB will be cracking down on baseballs being doctored. Does this fit in our spitball article or do we need a new article? – Muboshgu (talk) 19:15, 4 June 2021 (UTC)

Probably need to wait and see as to how they crack down and exactly what they deem illegal... as this is still a developing story. Spanneraol (talk) 19:42, 4 June 2021 (UTC)
I would agree with Spanneraol and suggest we lean into our NOTNEWS grounding at the moment before deciding how we cover. If a crackdown comes I think that will make how we should cover it easier to discern. Regardless, Doctored baseballs could probably be its own article though which would incorporate spitballs but also things like sanding them and the current sticky substances. Sources from a very quick search revealed [5] [6] [7] Barkeep49 (talk) 20:14, 4 June 2021 (UTC)
I created the article for the emery ball a few weeks ago. Doesn't seem that anyone is scuffing baseballs, at present, but they're loading them up with all sorts of sticky stuff. Definitely something for us to monitor. – Muboshgu (talk) 20:27, 4 June 2021 (UTC)
It was covered in The Athletic too, I think ... I also heard JT Realmuto mention it in public at one point. Definitely something to monitor, but I concur with Spanner that I'm not clear how to integrate it yet. Go Phightins! 20:13, 4 June 2021 (UTC)
I'm not sure if "Doctored baseballs" is the right name, but I agree there is enough info to warrant a Wikipedia article. As discussed in the sports journalism articles, it's been an open secret for a few years now that many if not most pitchers are adulterating baseballs. The capturing of spin rates by the MLB advanced stats department made it evident with quantitative data. isaacl (talk) 21:25, 4 June 2021 (UTC)
I ran a quick search for "doctored baseballs" on newspapers.com—the term gets 1,502 hits, the earliest of which was in 1906, here. I also found parts of this 1919 article to be relevant now, a century later :-) Dmoore5556 (talk) 05:49, 7 June 2021 (UTC)
What feels different with the current generation is that it's the effect on the pitching grip that is the primary source of the advantage being gained, rather than the aerodynamics of the ball being altered. isaacl (talk) 00:29, 8 June 2021 (UTC)
There's a lot of discussion in the SI article about spin rate and the unnatural way in which it is increasing. – Muboshgu (talk) 00:33, 8 June 2021 (UTC)
Yes, the coverage in Sports Illustrated and The Athletic has been illuminating. Today there's an article in The Athletic on Sticky Tack on how its inventor had no idea that it was so popular with pitchers now (he invented it for strongman competitions to help him hold onto 100 to 160 kg cement spheres). isaacl (talk) 01:03, 8 June 2021 (UTC)

This discussion has given me an idea. Wikipedia has articles on cheating in chess, cheating in casinos, cheating in poker, cheating in bridge, cheating in online games, and cheating in video games. So, I have begun Draft:Cheating in baseball. Please help me expand it. – Muboshgu (talk) 01:27, 8 June 2021 (UTC)

FYI – Sources: MLB finalizing memo on rule against use of foreign substances by pitchers via ESPN.com Dmoore5556 (talk) 22:01, 12 June 2021 (UTC)

FYI – MLB players caught with any foreign substance to face 10-day suspension, sources say via ESPN.com Dmoore5556 (talk) 04:04, 15 June 2021 (UTC)

+ Waldstein, David (June 12, 2021). "Baseball's Sticky Situation". The New York Times.—Bagumba (talk) 04:58, 15 June 2021 (UTC)

The 10 most-viewed, worst-quality articles according to this Wikiproject

Wikipedia:WikiProject Baseball/Popular pages--Coin945 (talk) 06:43, 19 June 2021 (UTC)

Several of these need to be uprated... Ohtani is certainly not "start" class. Spanneraol (talk) 13:29, 19 June 2021 (UTC)
Updated a pretty good chunk of them. Active players are usually gonna be under-assessed. Finley is surprising, maybe I should work on that article given that it's in pretty shoddy shape. Wizardman 14:17, 19 June 2021 (UTC)
I highly recommend people install Evad37's rater script. You can see the current rating when you're on the main page, so seeing that "stub" icon on a long page tells you right away that it needs to be rerated. And the script doesn't require you to go to the talk page to change it.. – Muboshgu (talk) 18:38, 19 June 2021 (UTC)
I had some time and worked on the Chuck Finley article this evening. Dmoore5556 (talk) 02:15, 20 June 2021 (UTC)
I did similarly with Bobby Rose which had been one big WP:BLPRS violation since the day it was created....William, is the complaint department really on the roof? 10:16, 20 June 2021 (UTC)
I'm updating Rose even more. He's a relatively important player in NPB history. I expanded his awards in the infobox and also fleshed out how he ended up playing in Japan. I'll expand his Japanese career later tonight. His career path is actually pretty interesting. Plus he has the most cycles in NPB history! --TorsodogTalk 20:32, 20 June 2021 (UTC)
All that infobox you re-added is removed again because none of it is referenced....William, is the complaint department really on the roof? 20:46, 20 June 2021 (UTC)
hah, okie dokie then. It'll be readded again soon after I finish the update. Thanks. --TorsodogTalk 21:11, 20 June 2021 (UTC)
Ah, I see now. All of this was already in the article and you cut it all out since it was unsourced instead of trying to find sources. I was surprised at how sparse the article was when I opened it. That explains it. --TorsodogTalk 21:22, 20 June 2021 (UTC)
Please read WP:BLPRS which says= Wikipedia's sourcing policy, Verifiability, says that all quotations and any material challenged or likely to be challenged must be attributed to a reliable, published source using an inline citation; material not meeting this standard may be removed. This policy extends that principle, adding that contentious material about living persons that is unsourced or poorly sourced should be removed immediately and without discussion. This applies whether the material is negative, positive, neutral, or just questionable and whether it is in a biography or in some other article....William, is the complaint department really on the roof? 21:28, 20 June 2021 (UTC)
FYI that I've also made some edits to Bobby Rose over the past 24 hours, based on the usual statistical sources (e.g. B-R and Retrosheet). I'm not familiar with him, outside of his stats, so additions (properly sourced) are welcome. Dmoore5556 (talk) 21:57, 20 June 2021 (UTC)
FYI, Torsodog just added info sourced on a post at a Japanese website called liveddoor.com. It looks like a social media website that invites blogposts. Livedoor may not be a reliable source. I've made a post to WP:RSN asking for an opinion....William, is the complaint department really on the roof? 22:09, 20 June 2021 (UTC)

I added links into the list above. Note that Miocic is a UFC fighter who did not play baseball after college. Dmoore5556 (talk) 20:26, 19 June 2021 (UTC)

20,000th player

Recently, Baseball Reference updated their website to make Negro Leaguers into Major Leaguers. Before this happened, José Godoy of the Seattle Mariners became the 20,000th player in MLB history. After the Baseball Reference change, it now lists Randall Delgado as the 20,000th player in MLB history.[8] Should update Delgado and Godoy's pages to reflect the change? MainPeanut (talk) 17:01, 21 June 2021 (UTC)

Maybe warrants a one-sentence entry on each of their pages. Seems fairly inconsequential and subjective (B-R considers the National Association to have been a major league, while MLB does not—article). That said, it might be worth checking the 10,000th player(s) as well. Dmoore5556 (talk) 17:18, 21 June 2021 (UTC)
IMHO, its trivia. Do you remember the line from Mr. Baseball? Tom Selleck's character bragged about his leading the team in 9th inning doubles in the month of August....William, is the complaint department really on the roof? 17:28, 21 June 2021 (UTC)
I agree, is it really something that is worth reporting? Especially since it's so subjective depending on which leagues you consider to be part of MLB. Spanneraol (talk) 17:41, 21 June 2021 (UTC)
This runs into the further question of what exactly "Major League Baseball" is meant to be. The reclassification of the Negro Leagues will reopen that debate. O.N.R. (talk) 20:39, 21 June 2021 (UTC)
Fair point. I see a distinction between Major League Baseball (proper name using capital letters), the entity formed circa 1903 that consists of the National League and American League (only), and the major leagues (general term in lower case) of North America, of which there is already some history of disagreement (see National Association as a major league). Perhaps worth its own thread here. Dmoore5556 (talk) 20:48, 21 June 2021 (UTC)
Quick addition to note that the B-R announcement about the Negro Leagues—here—uses the term "major league" multiple times but never uses the words "Major League Baseball", which I would expect is intentional (and historically accurate). Same can be said of the Federal League—a major league that was not part of MLB. Dmoore5556 (talk) 20:58, 21 June 2021 (UTC)
Remember that its not our opinions that matter, but depth of coverage in reliable sources. So, if the sources are calling Randall Delgado player #20,000, then we can add it there. If it's only B Ref listing it, then we shouldn't. – Muboshgu (talk) 21:03, 21 June 2021 (UTC)

Minor League Baseball rookie leagues renamed

I've not yet seen an official announcement, but there are consistent postings on Twitter and some blogs (example) advising that the Gulf Coast League and Arizona League have been renamed to Florida Complex League and Arizona Complex League. If anyone does see something official, please advise. If and when confirmed, the above two Wikipedia pages should (I believe) be renamed to reflect the new naming. We should know soon enough, as their season is due to start June 28. Dmoore5556 (talk) 03:58, 21 June 2021 (UTC)

The official sites still use the current names.. so not official yet. Spanneraol (talk) 04:06, 21 June 2021 (UTC) Well, looks like I spoke too soon... while they still have pages for the Arizona League and Gulf Coast League, the roster pages HAVE been renamed. [9] [10]. Spanneraol (talk) 04:12, 21 June 2021 (UTC)
Thanks – they're probably in the midst of updating the site. As an aside, there's also an unrelated summer collegiate baseball league known as the "Florida Gulf Coast League" (website) that tends to mess up online searching :-) Dmoore5556 (talk) 04:26, 21 June 2021 (UTC)
For what it's worth, the 2021 MiLB Info Guide still uses the previous AZL & GCL terms. But I agree with the above that they look to be changing. The guide also has a list of 2021 DSL teams, but I wanted to wait for some kind of announcement before tackling those team changes for this year; some of them seem too generic to be the actual names. NatureBoyMD (talk) 12:21, 21 June 2021 (UTC)
By "too generic" do you mean the suffixes (e.g. Red Sox Red, Red Sox Blue)? I believe DSL teams have used those for a few seasons now; previously they used numbers (e.g. Yankees 1, Yankees 2) when a franchise fielded two teams. Dmoore5556 (talk) 13:16, 21 June 2021 (UTC)
Not quite. It seemed like there were several 1s and 2s as opposed to colors or hybrid names like the DSL Brewers/Blue Jays. NatureBoyMD (talk) 19:43, 21 June 2021 (UTC)
FYI from here: "Originally, the Brewers and Blue Jays were slated to have a combined team of players, but the Brewers decided to go to two full teams, so the remaining Blue Jays players will develop in the same way as the Braves' players will at their complex." Also, the author still calls them GCL and AZL, but the embedded schedules have the new league names in the titles. Dmoore5556 (talk) 22:00, 21 June 2021 (UTC)
I think the decision to change the names is a fairly recent decision which is probably why the sources are mixed in what they are displaying right now.. probably by the time the season starts (one week to go) we will know more.... The DSL doesn't start till July 12 so we have even longer to wait for final word on that. Spanneraol (talk) 23:41, 21 June 2021 (UTC)
IMO it seems best to hold off on renaming until the official announcement/press release does come through. Hog Farm Talk 23:56, 21 June 2021 (UTC)
Update — the MiLB.com pages now refer to the leagues by the new names. Doesn't seem to be an official announcement posted anywhere yet. Florida Complex League page here and Arizona Complex League page here. Dmoore5556 (talk) 05:09, 26 June 2021 (UTC)
They likely won't make an official announcement, as those leagues don't get much coverage.. but the official site using the new names is all we really need to start making changes. Spanneraol (talk) 13:19, 26 June 2021 (UTC)
All good, I see you made a number of edits (thank you), and I worked through all the FCL team pages yesterday to update leads and infoboxes. I'll try to check/update ACL pages later today, as time allows. There is still cleanup needed in the MLB 2021 teams-by-season articles (to change league names and update links) but nothing should be broken. FCL was originally going to be 20 teams, but now its 18, as the Astros and Phillies dropped from two squads each to a single squad each. It seems that MiLB may have done away with divisions with the Rookie leagues, as the standings are just a single batch of all the teams (18 per league): ACL standings and FCL standings. No sign of new logos yet. Dmoore5556 (talk) 20:54, 28 June 2021 (UTC)
There are still divisions, they're under a drop-down box which defaults to "League." SportingFlyer T·C 21:02, 28 June 2021 (UTC)
Yea, i missed that and I think i got rid of the divisions on some page... will have to fix that when I get back to that one.. there are a ton of pages that mention this league though. Spanneraol (talk) 21:21, 28 June 2021 (UTC)
ahhhh, thank you SportingFlyer. Dmoore5556 (talk) 21:24, 28 June 2021 (UTC)

Article renames

User Bolt1113 made a couple changes to Minor League Baseball classification article titles today:

I am ambiguous about the general renaming of Class A to Low-A, as Low-A is the current name of the classification, although it existed as Class A for over 100 years. That said, it appears the dabs of "(baseball)" on these two article titles are spurious, as there are no conflicting articles on Wikipedia named High-A or Low-A. The minor league classifications are the WP:PRIMARYTOPIC for those terms. Triple-A (baseball) and Double-A (baseball) have dabs because there are conflicting article titles (see the Triple-A and Double-A disamb pages). I am unsure if/how the dabs on High-A and Low-A should be removed, so wanted to give it visibility here. Dmoore5556 (talk) 20:28, 29 June 2021 (UTC)

I see no reason for those renames as the baseball dabs are unnecessary.. and Class-A has a long history before the current classification. Spanneraol (talk) 20:54, 29 June 2021 (UTC)
I've reverted the High-A move per WP:RMUM (it wasn't discussed beforehand and there have been objections, also it just seems like a clear case of unnecessary disambiguation). The Class A/Low-A article could be potentially debatable enough to require a RM, so I didn't revert it for now, but someone else can if they want. Nohomersryan (talk) 22:28, 29 June 2021 (UTC)
I reverted the Class A move, if only because Low-A is a recent thing compared to the historic name. oknazevad (talk) 23:14, 29 June 2021 (UTC)

Negro leagues update?

With Baseball-Reference in the process of updating their site to include select Negro league seasons as Major leagues, we are probably going to need a massive overhaul here.

A big question/challenge is how player’s pages should be treated. Assuming players like Satchel Paige can just have their Negro League/MLB numbers combined in their infobox. But what to do about the teams listed? Not all Negro League teams are being classified as Major league, and no independent seasons are being counted. I think this will bring confusion if some of these "non-major league" teams are listed, but their numbers are not reflected in MLB totals.

So, should only “major league” Negro league teams be listed in infoboxes? Or should all their known teams be listed, even if they were independent teams/seasons, but some sort of disclaimer/change can be included? Whether that be bolding the “major league” teams, italicizing them, or something else. And what to do with players who played before 1920 or after 1948? Should their teams/seasons be listed? Do players who played exclusively after 1948 in the surviving Negro leagues even pass WP:BASE/N?

All of the Major League season pages from 1920-48 need to be updated, the MLB All-Time rosters would need dozens of new additions, and teams would need to be added to the team history’s template. It appears this page only lists teams from the NL and AL, or teams that joined the NL from another league, which seems inaccurate, to me at least.

The lists of MLB players, alphabetical and otherwise, would need massive changes. A big problem with the alphabetical lists is that they are horribly outdated to begin with, with most of the recent debuts from the last several seasons missing.

Something I don't think is getting enough attention is that this change would not just impact historic players, but managers, coaches, umpires, executives, broadcasters, stadiums, etc.

Also list page probably needs to be updated/clarified that it does not include the Negro leaguers retroactively given Major league status.

Before people start just going crazy here, I guess something that needs to be clarified is if we should wait until these seasons and players are added to MLB.com and/or officially announced by the Elias Sports Bureau, although there appears there is no timetable for this. Or should we try and get a jump start on this? Thoughts? Penale52 (talk) 14:20, 15 May 2021 (UTC)

It's a massive project... so I would prefer to wait until the databases at BR or MLB are updated so we can go off of those rather than trying to figure it out ourselves.. I'm not as informed on the Negro leagues, did they actually have broadcasts for any of those games? On the other hand, the overall lists of MLB players and the team all-time roster pages definitely need a serious updating as well.. the formatting on some of the pages makes it kinda difficult to update them. I think the editors who initially updated those pages are long since retired. Spanneraol (talk) 17:38, 15 May 2021 (UTC)
Narrowly with regards to "Also list page probably needs to be updated/clarified that it does not include the Negro leaguers retroactively given Major league status." where the list in question is List of Negro league baseball players who played in Major League Baseball — there is a difference between expanding the definition of "Major League Baseball" to include select Negro Leagues (which B-R is undertaking) and listing Negro League players who later appeared in the American League or National League. The latter continues to be historically significant, independent of the former. Changing the name of the list in question (MLB to AL/NL) at some point should suffice. Dmoore5556 (talk) 21:38, 17 May 2021 (UTC)
Baseball Reference has updated their site [11].. so for example Roy Campanella's page [12] now includes his Negro league stats, making his MLB batting average .283 (instead of .276) and he now has 260 homers instead of 242.. We should probably go ahead and update his article and others that are so affected. I noticed they have separate spots for first appearance and first NL/AL appearance now, something I incorporated into Jackie Robinson's article. Spanneraol (talk) 21:11, 15 June 2021 (UTC)
Just commenting that we shouldn't be combining NgL & MLB in infoboxes. While MLB may now consider NgL to be on par with them, it's not their pretentious call to make; MLB cannot claim NgL as their own. This is more on the historians & contemporary researchers to decide, which was done decades before MLB said 'let it be so.' I believe the articles should list the teams & accomplishments on par, yet not blur the line between the 2. That diminishes the struggles. Therefore, I propose using the term "major leagues" (lowercase, no baseball) but NEVER "Major League Baseball." Rgrds. --Bison X (talk) 00:56, 3 July 2021 (UTC)
Thus far, I concur with Bison X; open to listening to other approaches. It's accurate to say that Roy Campanella hit 260 major league home runs—242 in Major League Baseball (the entity encompassing the American League and National League) and 18 in NN2 (a major league that was not part of MLB). In the same vein, I don't believe anyone would say that Leon Lee hit 268 home runs in MLB. Dmoore5556 (talk) 04:36, 3 July 2021 (UTC)
I think the distinction between "major league", as in top-flight, and "Major League Baseball" the organization is definitely one that should be maintained. Of course, the entire history of how the MLB organization evolved is itself a complicated one as the distinction between the two wasn't always maintained by writers, because for most of their existence the two ah e been synonymous. oknazevad (talk) 17:09, 3 July 2021 (UTC)

Aubrey Huff Good Article Reassessment

Aubrey Huff, an article that you or your project may be interested in, has been nominated for an individual good article reassessment. If you are interested in the discussion, please participate by adding your comments to the reassessment page. If concerns are not addressed during the review period, the good article status may be removed from the article. --Whiteguru (talk) 01:31, 4 July 2021 (UTC)

Cannabis and sports

New stub: Cannabis and sports. Any project members care to help with the Baseball section? ---Another Believer (Talk) 17:49, 8 July 2021 (UTC)

Another Believer, you're speaking my language. – Muboshgu (talk) 17:51, 8 July 2021 (UTC)
👍 Like ---Another Believer (Talk) 17:52, 8 July 2021 (UTC)

"MLB statistics" in infoboxes

Opening a discussion here about career statistical totals displayed in infoboxes of players who played in the major leagues, when those totals include major leagues outside of Major League Baseball (the National League and American League).

Practice has been for "MLB statistics" in infoboxes to use statistics from reference sites Baseball-Reference.com (B-R) and Retrosheet. Those sites have, historically, compiled statistics from seven major leagues: the National League, American League, American Association (19th century), Union Association, Players' League, Federal League, and notably the National Association of Professional Base Ball Players (NA). The first six were recognized by MLB in 1969 via its Special Baseball Records Committee, while the NA has never been recognized by MLB (for more background see National Association as a major league). Baseball Almanac (BA) and MLB.com do not include NA stats. See for example the entries for Chick Fulmer on each site: B-R Retrosheet BA MLB. The first two list him with 635 career hits, the latter two list him with 365.
As B-R adds stats from the seven leagues within Negro league baseball that are now recognized as major leagues (listed here and here, near the bottom of each), the question of how/what totals should be presented in infoboxes came up in a somewhat broader earlier discussion in this forum (see "Negro leagues update?").

With the above background, there seem to be a couple of decision points:

1) Is "MLB statistics" a clear and appropriate term for infobox totals?

"MLB statistics" on Wikipedia have been the totals provided in B-R and Retrosheet, which historically have been in sync. As noted above, these already reflect stats from leagues other than the AL and NL (the AL and NL being "MLB"), including one league (NA) that is not recognized by MLB itself. Note that neither B-R or Retrosheet call a player's stats their "MLB" totals—B-R provides a "career" summary and Retrosheet lists a "Total" stats line, compiling all of a player's career stats from what they consider to be the major leagues.

2) What source(s) should be used for the figures presented in "MLB statistics"?

B-R is the sole source, to date, of major league stats that include stats from Negro league baseball. While Retrosheet is also working on stats from the Negro leagues (info here) they have not yet updated individual player pages or advised any target date for doing so, nor have Baseball Almanac or MLB.com. See for example the entries for Roy Campanella: B-R Retro BA MLB. The first lists him with 1401 career hits, the latter three list him with 1161 career hits. Additionally, career sorts / career lists on the four sites can currently yield three different outcomes, as B-R includes Negro league and NA stats, Retrosheet includes NA stats but not Negro league stats, and BA & MLB include neither Negro league or NA stats.

It would helpful for us to reach consensus on the above two questions, else individual player pages could be updated in very inconsistent ways.

I do feel that "MLB statistics" is very much a misnomer, as what is being presented is actually a player's major league statistics. The two are equivalent for players who only appeared in the AL and NL (e.g. Pete Rose and Joe DiMaggio) but are not the same for players who appeared in non-AL/NL major leagues (e.g. Chick Fulmer and Roy Campanella). Nor can they be construed as "MLB-recognized" stats, as they include NA statistics when MLB explicitly does not recognize the NA as a major league. As a first step, I would like to see if we could agree to (and then find a way to) entitle infobox career stats as Major league statistics instead of MLB statistics.

What do other editors think? Thanks. Dmoore5556 (talk) 00:06, 5 July 2021 (UTC)

I think changing it to "Major league statistics" is a first reasonable step. Secondly, I think we need to use a different source if there's a discrepancy between Baseball Reference and the official MLB stats because of their recognition of the NA as a major league. While the argument can be made, until there's consensus to support that argument (which would mean recognition by MLB, the Hall of Fame, and others), then Baseball Reference is basically deviating from the accepted stats to make a point, and that's no bueno.
As for that argument, I'm going to be frank and state plainly that it does not deserve a separate article. The article is pretty well sourced, but it's short, and a chunk of the text is argumentative essay-like material that comes off more as padding and it overall has little to no chance of ever being meaningfully expanded. It should just be merged with the article on the NA, and the material integrated properly instead of shunted off to a separate article, which deprives the main article of the necessary context. The NA's only really long-term significance is that it led to the NL, and that historical contribution is both the source of the argument for counting it and a major league and one of the chief arguments against it. Without it sufficiently and integrally covered the article on the NA is inadequate. oknazevad (talk) 01:10, 5 July 2021 (UTC)
Oknazevad, I agree that the content in "National Association as a major league" should simply be merged into the main article "National Association of Professional Base Ball Players". I'd be happy to work on that, if we reach such a consensus. On your first paragraph, I don't know if there was a specific decision reached here to use career totals that include NA stats, or it just evolved over time because of the popularity of B-R and Retrosheet. If other editors may know the history, that would be helpful insight. There are articles where NA stats are excluded; one is List of Major League Baseball no-hitters, where the one NA no-hitter is acknowledged but not included in the historical total. If we look at the page for Joe Borden, who threw that no-hitter, his "MLB" career record is listed as 13–16 in his infobox, reflecting his NL and NA stat totals. I'm not advocating that Borden's infobox should be changed, but highlighting the inconsistency. Dmoore5556 (talk) 01:48, 5 July 2021 (UTC)
Yeah, I think a broader discussion in light of our reliance on Baseball Reference when their stats are out of step with the official stats is needed. But as for the article, feel free to be bold and merge them. I doubt there would be any serious objection. oknazevad (talk) 01:54, 5 July 2021 (UTC)
  • I merged 'em. Feel free to continue copy-editing it. Rgrds. --Bison X (talk) 02:50, 5 July 2021 (UTC)
Just took a quick pass to remove redundancies resulting from the merge. That is for being bold here. oknazevad (talk) 02:57, 5 July 2021 (UTC)
"MLB" vs '"Major league" seems like a technicality. Most casual fans would read them to mean the same. Perhaps just itemize the specific leagues if more than MLB. That's what basketball does e.g. extreme case George Mikan.—Bagumba (talk) 05:00, 5 July 2021 (UTC)
I quite like how the stats for George Mikan are displayed; it's fully transparent, and it's immediate clear which leagues' stats have been included. Which captures my main concern with how baseball pages present right now—looking at an infobox, there's no indication of which leagues' stats it reflects. Pud Galvin would be a good baseball equivalent to Mikan. Certainly an approach to consider. Dmoore5556 (talk) 05:38, 5 July 2021 (UTC)
A more normal case is Moses Malone, where it shows "ABA and NBA" and only has one set of combined stats.—Bagumba (talk) 08:25, 5 July 2021 (UTC)
For what it's worth, MLB.com lists Pud Galvin's debut as "5/22/1875," clearly his National Association debut date, but then obviously doesn't include his NA stats. This appears to be the case with other players who played in the NL but debuted in the NA, Deacon White and Harry Wright just other examples. The Baseball Hall appears to rely on Baseball-Reference for its stats, as it includes Pud Galvin's NA team and numbers.
Anyway, I think "Major league statistics" is the route to go here for infoboxes, but I wonder if we could add a separate section for NA numbers, since there was no higher league at the time, but with a note that they are not "major league". As for Negro league stats/teams/years, and jumping back to the post I started farther up the page, I don't know what the best way to go about this is.
Just use Ben Taylor as an extreme example. The teams in his infobox include: Pre-Negro league teams, a Cuban League team, Negro major league teams, and a post-1920 independent Negro league season from (1923 Washington Potomacs). There are no stats (yet) added to his infobox, but would we go with all the known stats from all of these various leagues/levels, or stick to the major league numbers from BR and add a note that the stats are only for "major league" seasons. We also could wait for MLB.com/Elias to update their database before adding/standardizing any Negro league numbers. Penale52 (talk) 15:51, 5 July 2021 (UTC)
Penale52, for Ben Taylor (Negro leagues), it should be the latter approach you noted. Per his B-R stats here (updated with stats from the major Negro leagues) he played 10 major-league seasons with a .337 average, 26 home runs, and 449 RBIs. I expect those number should eventually end up in his infobox (preferably not labeled as "MLB statistics") with only his major-league teams (per B-R; 5 different teams in 3 different leagues) enumerated. I'll mock-up some infoboxes of a few players (e.g. Pud Galvin, Ben Taylor, Roy Campanella) to try out some of the labeling suggestions noted. I'll post an update back here when there's something to take a look at, probably later today or tomorrow. Also, potentially waiting for MLB.com/Elias to update their database does have some merit, in my view. Dmoore5556 (talk) 21:21, 5 July 2021 (UTC)

(ec) I don't believe the stats are combinable. NgL games were played in a diff style and diff stats were valued in diff ways; individual stats were not as important as the team was back then (for survivabilty reasons). I was bold & uncombined them in Campy's infoxbox [13]. Thoughts? Rgrds. --Bison X (talk) 21:23, 5 July 2021 (UTC)

Up until the stats are added to the official record books, it's basically "anything goes" as long as you don't start a revert war. B-R is not official, so we still have some time to figure this out. O.N.R. (talk) 01:29, 6 July 2021 (UTC)

Test infoboxes

See Talk:Roy Campanella#Test infoboxes. Some for Pud Galvin and Ben Taylor to follow. Probably best to add any feedback/comments here, not on the players' Talk pages. Dmoore5556 (talk) 03:29, 6 July 2021 (UTC)

There's a hint of irony in "segregating" the two sets of stats, but for the time being, Option 4 is the best option, possibly with "Negro League stats" fully spelt out. We do have the extra space for that. O.N.R. (talk) 07:46, 6 July 2021 (UTC)
I've added infobox 4A where "NgL statistics" is now spelled out as "Negro leagues statistics" Dmoore5556 (talk) 23:06, 6 July 2021 (UTC)
I think #3 is the best... not really necessary to segregate the stats. Though I might peg his first appearance as NL rather than MLB in that instance. Spanneraol (talk) 14:07, 6 July 2021 (UTC)

See Talk:Ben Taylor (Negro leagues)#Test infoboxes. Fewer variants than Campanella, as Taylor never played in MLB (NL/AL). I kept numbering of like-options the same. The listed major-league teams and stats are per Taylor's updated B-R page; his actual infobox has not yet been updated in that manner. Best to add any comments here. Dmoore5556 (talk) 23:45, 6 July 2021 (UTC)

See Talk:Pud Galvin#Test infoboxes. More variants than Taylor, due different approaches on if/how to display NA stats. This is perhaps the most intricate and debatable of the three test cases created here. There are scores (if not hundreds) of player infoboxes that currently include NA stats (including Galvin's current page) due to their inclusion by B-R and Retrosheet, despite NA explicitly being unrecognized (some might say rejected) as a major league by MLB. Dmoore5556 (talk) 04:26, 8 July 2021 (UTC)

For Galvin, I think 4A (4A) Independent entries: NA and Major league) works the best, as I think it's necessary to include the NA in the infobox, while still noting it is not a major league. For Taylor, I'd probably go with 3) (Major league stats), but do we want to keep pre-1920s Negro league teams/post-1920 independent Negro league teams in the team list? Or maybe add them in a separate section below the Negro major league teams? Penale52 (talk) 13:40, 9 July 2021 (UTC)
Re: Tyalor: In the context of an infobox, from a reader's pov, I believe it to be logical to include pre- & post-1920 stats under the heading of "Negro league stats". If you do not include pre-1920 stats, then, ugh, "Major league stats" is logical. I would prefer not to gloss over the "Negro league" era and re-label as "Major league," but I have made my pov in above posts. Rgrds. --Bison X (talk) 01:10, 10 July 2021 (UTC)

College conference awards in infoboxes

I haven't seen a real thorough discussion of whether player infoboxes should contain college baseball conference awards (e.g. Pac-12 Conference Baseball Player of the Year or Atlantic Coast Conference Baseball Pitcher of the Year). Certain players have these awards in their infoboxes (e.g. Aaron Nola and Brendan McKay) but they generally don't. I think they certainly should be included in their infoboxes as they're interesting and informative. They wouldn't cause clutter in that they would add no more than two (and usually only one) line per infobox. Baseball infoboxes are already an outlier in that, unlike football and basketball, they have no info about where players played in college. I think it at least makes sense to allude to their college careers in the rare event that they're selected as the single best player or pitcher in their conference. I'm willing to concede that "Freshman of the Year" awards might be over the line in that they draw from such a small player pool but would be interested to hear some good reasons that the marquee conference awards shouldn't be included. --Dennis C. Abrams (talk) 04:40, 14 July 2021 (UTC)

There was a discussion in 2019 where the consensus was to include the Golden Spikes Award and Dick Howser Trophy. The topic of conference awards didn't come up. The disctinction I'd make with college football and basketball is that they receive mainstream coverage in newspapers and network television, which college baseball does not. Most college baseball awards would therefore be WP:UNDUE in the infobox. As most MLB players do not attend college, inclusion of MiLB POYs like Baseball America Minor League Player of the Year Award seems more warranted than college conference awards. Also, I'd expect All-American to be included before conference POY (not that I'm arguing for AA).—Bagumba (talk) 07:26, 14 July 2021 (UTC)
I agree with this. Catalyst30 (talk) 08:11, 14 July 2021 (UTC)
I saw that discussion but it only involved three people (hardly a quorum) and didn't mention conference awards. I'm very unconvinced by the argument comparing college baseball awards to college football and basketball awards. Obviously college football and basketball are more mainstream (i.e. notable) and more weight should be given to those awards. However, are they really so much more notable that Tyler Hansbrough and JJ Redick, for example, should have thirteen amateur highlights apiece listed in their infoboxes and Carson Fulmer, for example, who was National Pitcher of the Year, SEC Pitcher of the Year, a 2015 consensus All-American and 2014 College World Series champion, should have no amateur highlights in his infobox? That does not seem at all proportionate to the amount of weight that they're due. If they were proportionate, the basketball infoboxes could be listing all their minor amateur highlights and the baseball infoboxes would be listing only the major awards (including conference bests). I also really fail to see how it's relevant that most players don't play in college. Regarding MiLB POYs and All-America teams, they are certainly less appropriate for infoboxes in that they're awarded by third parties; it seems a strong consensus was reached pretty early on that such awards (e.g. Sporting News Comeback Player of the Year Award) wouldn't be included in infoboxes. --Dennis C. Abrams (talk) 13:19, 14 July 2021 (UTC)
hardly a quorum: I mentioned it as FYI. Of course, WP:CCC.—Bagumba (talk) 14:35, 14 July 2021 (UTC)
I also really fail to see how it's relevant that most players don't play in college: The point was there's an absence of MiLB honors listed, which would be more unbalanced if we add still more college awards. As for third party awards, I presume the consensus was that "official" MLB awards trump the other ones. In the case of MiLB, unless there are "official" awards, I don't think it's a blanket statement to never consider 3rd party. I dont think the Golden Spikes or Howser Trophy are affiliated with the NCAA, and they're in ibxs.—Bagumba (talk) 14:45, 14 July 2021 (UTC)
Denniscabrams, the discussion was opened in the context of conference awards, but there are references above to national awards, national championships, and all-American honors. If conference awards are still the focus, clarity on what constitutes a "marquee conference award" would help. Is that specifically Player of the Year and Pitcher of the Year for every Division I conference, or ? Dmoore5556 (talk) 04:04, 18 July 2021 (UTC)
That would mean Player of the Year and Pitcher of the Year, though Freshman of the Year is certainly on a similar level. I'm not sold on all-conference teams though. Dennis C. Abrams (talk) 04:14, 18 July 2021 (UTC)
The original discussions about info box awards came to the conclusion that the info boxes are primarily for awards received in the major leagues... and that college awards and minor league awards receive such limited coverage that they are really insignificant.... I feel that college conference awards should certainly NOT be info boxes... even All-American teams don't get much coverage... though if they were a national player of the year that might count. Spanneraol (talk) 13:54, 18 July 2021 (UTC)
I tend to agree. While I could be persuaded to accept national college awards like the Golden Spikes Award, college conference awards certainly don't rise to the level of infobox inclusion. LEPRICAVARK (talk) 14:18, 18 July 2021 (UTC)

Reliability of Baseball Reference vs Shreveport Times

Your input is requested at Talk:Harry Davis (1930s first baseman) § Davis's wife; reliability of Shreveport Times. I am unfortunately very unfamiliar with the reliability of either source, so subject-area expertise and guidance would be much appreciated. Sdrqaz (talk) 00:12, 26 July 2021 (UTC)

The two sources do not contradict each other... I've commented at the other talk page. Spanneraol (talk) 00:47, 26 July 2021 (UTC)

merge Charles Robertson (baseball) and Lefty Robinson

Charles Robertson (baseball) and Lefty Robinson seem to be about the same person. Could somebody take care of the merge? Thank you! (PS: English isn’t my native language and I’m not really accustomed to en.wp policy so I don’t think it would be a good idea for me to do it myself.) --Emu (talk) 15:05, 2 August 2021 (UTC)

Emu, thanks for bringing this to our attention. JonP125 created Lefty Robinson two months ago, please merge and redirect to the page created in 2014. – Muboshgu (talk) 15:14, 2 August 2021 (UTC)

MLB players-turned-coaches

When a former MLB player returns to college as a coach, should their articles use Template:Infobox baseball biography or Template:Infobox college coach? There seems to be a lot of disagreement. Compare, for example, José Cruz Jr., Lance Berkman, Frank Catalanotto and Willie Bloomquist (not to mention whatever's going on in Chip Hale's article). --Dennis C. Abrams (talk) 01:47, 4 August 2021 (UTC)

I would think their playing career is what makes them notable and should take precedence. Spanneraol (talk) 02:09, 4 August 2021 (UTC)
Given the crossover between college and pro sports, I never understood some's insistence on a one size fits all ibx for all college personnel. It seems a multi-purpose ibx that allow listing of their current conference or league is fair. After that, it seems the difference is whether to have dedicated stats for their current team tracked, along with postseason record details. For me, it's WP:FANCRUFT.—Bagumba (talk) 02:40, 4 August 2021 (UTC)
Denniscabrams, use both. Infoboxes can be embedded into each other. See Bo Jackson, for an example of how it's done. – Muboshgu (talk) 02:45, 4 August 2021 (UTC)

MLB Wild card templates

Hi. Should these (e.g. Template:2021 NL Wild Card standings) also separately show the 3 x 2nd-placed teams in a box, or otherwise have some text/layout changes made so it doesn’t look as if only 5 teams qualify? Eldumpo (talk) 22:36, 13 August 2021 (UTC)

Only five teams do qualify this year. They are not doing the expanded playoffs that were used last season. Spanneraol (talk) 23:49, 13 August 2021 (UTC)
Ah right, thanks. Should that info be put somewhere in the Standings section of the season article though, as I went to 2020 season to work out the format. Eldumpo (talk) 07:52, 14 August 2021 (UTC)

Handling updates of redirects to minor league players lists

I'm wondering how we're going to want to handle this as a project. Obviously, if they switch organizations and warrant mention in the list there, the redirect target can just be changed over to there. But what about when prospects wash out of the minor leagues? For instance, I was just checking to see what redirected to San Diego Padres minor league players, and the first one on the list is Rafael DePaula. Well, per b-ref, it looks like DePaula was last in the Padres org in 2017, he then spent 2018 in the Reds system, and pitched in AA and AAA in the Braves sytem in 2019, which I guess is why the alternate spelling Rafael de Paula redirects to Atlanta Braves minor league players. B-ref suggests that he played in the Dominican Winter League in 2019-20 winter, but I'm finding any evidence he's in anybody's system now, and doesn't seem to be mentioned anywhere. Should redirects like the DePaula case be sent to RFD? Or what to do when the player leaves affiliated systems and goes to indy ball, like Chase Anthony Vallot?

It may also be time to go through these lists to fix the redirects, for instance with two spellings of DePaula's name going to two different places. Also, the redirects don't seem to be updated always when the players reach the majors - I've just now retargeted full name variants for Foster Griffin and Kyle Isbel from the Royals milb listing to the player's articles (Isbel at least first made the majors this year, but Griffin has had a separate article for about a year). Hog Farm Talk 06:03, 31 July 2021 (UTC)

Hog Farm, you're right that we need to go through these pages to find redirects. I believe the proper way to handle it when they wash out is to demerge and nominate for deletion. For the DePaula redirect and other old ones, we can just speedy them. – Muboshgu (talk) 15:13, 2 August 2021 (UTC)

I've gone through the Padres, Braves, and Royals pages. Some of these require more work than others. Hog Farm Talk 05:24, 3 August 2021 (UTC)

I went through "what links here" for Boston Red Sox minor league players today and didn't find any stale redirects. Dmoore5556 (talk) 01:12, 23 August 2021 (UTC)

Help citing A False Spring

I've been working on the Ben Geraghty article, and someone included excerpts from A False Spring by Pat Jordan in the Hank Aaron section. Unfortunately, they failed to list the page numbers. If anyone out there has access to the book, would you mind adding page number cites to the excerpts in the article? Thanks. Sanfranciscogiants17 (talk) 00:23, 25 August 2021 (UTC)

Lefty Grove's first immaculate inning (?)

Some box scores were missing from List of Major League Baseball pitchers who have thrown an immaculate inning, which Retrosheet has, so I added them today. Lefty Grove appears twice on the list, credited for two immaculate innings: August 23, 1928 (box, 2nd inning) and September 27, 1928 (box, 7th inning). However, the box score for the August 23 game shows that Grove first allowed a single to Homer Summa in the 2nd inning, then struck out the next three batters, followed by striking out the first two batters of the 3rd inning. While striking out five consecutive batters on 17 pitches (so noted by Retrosheet) is quite a feat... there is no immaculate inning therein (immaculate inning defined as: "when a pitcher strikes out all three batters he faces in one inning, using the minimum possible number of pitches (nine)"). Thus, I believe Grove's entry in the list for August 23, 1928, should be removed. Comments? Dmoore5556 (talk) 03:14, 27 August 2021 (UTC)

Well, MLB.com still credits him with one for striking out Morgan, Harvel, and Autry. Cleveland Plain-Dealer says he had an immaculate inning against Cleveland in 1928. Sports Illustrated credits him with two. But this box score from the day after the game in question makes it clear what happened. Summa singled, and then Morgan, Harvel, and Autry struck out on nine pitches. Looking back at those sources linked above, they're all referring to the immaculate inning as striking out all three batters. And they credit Grove with one, when he didn't meet the standard now in use. But baseball history just about universally gives him it. I have no idea what to do. (Email Elias and MLB for clarification?) Hog Farm Talk 03:57, 27 August 2021 (UTC)
Thanks. The historical entries on the article page are based on the Baseball Almanac page here, which is clearly the source for the MLB.com article here; both carry the same error about Dazzy Vance's immaculate inning on September 14, 1924, listing it at the 2nd inning when the Retrosheet box score shows it was actually the 3rd inning. I've sent a note to Baseball Almanac about both the Vance errata and Grove's not-so-immaculate inning. I do not know how responsive they are; if/when I hear back, I will post an update here. I do feel that Grove's not-so-immaculate inning at least warrants a dagger note of explanation, especially given the contemporary account of the game (thanks for finding that). Dmoore5556 (talk) 04:09, 27 August 2021 (UTC)
Update – I added an efn to the article (text appears in the Notes section) noting that the Grove sequence in the August 23 game (first allowing a single) is "inconsistent with the present-day usage" of immaculate inning.
Update – Baseball Almanac wrote back; they've corrected the entry for Dazzy Vance (inning) and will check further about Lefty Grove as they had received that information from MLB. Dmoore5556 (talk) 16:47, 28 August 2021 (UTC)

A couple sources at Lee Smith (baseball)

Lee Smith (baseball) is in the process of being saved at FAR. It's an older FA from when sourcing reliability was a bit of a lower bar. Two baseball sources I'm not familiar with are cited there - Baseball Library and The Baseball Page. Are these generally RS? Hog Farm Talk 05:06, 28 August 2021 (UTC)

  • Baseball Library is definitely an RS. It was founded by the guy who wrote The Ballplayers: Baseball's Ultimate Biographical Reference, which is where most of its info comes from, and the bulk of its contributors were published authors. It's used in several baseball articles on here (including multiple FAs). I've never heard of the other one. It does look like, at a glance, just some random guy's opinion, and it isn't backing up the stuff about Nipper and Schiraldi, so it doesn't appear to be a highly necessary source, but I digress. Nohomersryan (talk) 05:33, 28 August 2021 (UTC)
    • I reworded the passage that had used The Baseball Page, removing that source. I also added sources for comments about Nipper and Schiraldi. Dmoore5556 (talk) 04:50, 29 August 2021 (UTC)

AL & NL Wild Card Game articles infoboxes

Howdy. Just wondering, do we really need to have the two competing teams in each article infobox shown in big letters above the score card? Also, aren't we over-linking to the exact same articles, in the infobox? GoodDay (talk) 04:45, 5 September 2021 (UTC)

This looks like a recent change. I believe its coming from a change made on August 4 to Template:Infobox baseball game by Sqldf03 with comment "added additional data to imitate Template:Infobox basketball game, Template:Infobox football match, & Template:Infobox limited overs final. Example 2019 FIBA Basketball World Cup Final". For what GoodDay is referring to, see for example 2019 American League Wild Card Game—the Tampa and Oakland team names (with links) are just hanging at the top; if there was a final score under each team name it might be helpful (or not); in the current format it does seem quite distracting. Dmoore5556 (talk) 02:03, 10 September 2021 (UTC)
Indeed, it's out-of-sync with the AL/NL Division series, AL/NL Championship series & the World Series. GoodDay (talk) 02:05, 10 September 2021 (UTC)
Also, as the underlying change was made to Template:Infobox baseball game, this shows up on many other individual game pages, such as 2021 MLB Little League Classic, 1976 Major League Baseball All-Star Game, and Fort Bragg Game. Dmoore5556 (talk) 02:08, 10 September 2021 (UTC)
All of this is correct. I was trying to imitate the navboxes of international competitions similar to FIFA, ICC, and FIBA. I was trying my best to have it not disrupt competitions in regions (i.e. MLB in North America), but looks like it didn't work out. If you two can preserve the format for future international baseball games like the World Baseball Classic, while making it appropriate for regional competitions, that would be excellent. My coding is pretty weak for the languages on Wiki in particular.Sqldf03 (talk) 20:57, 10 September 2021 (UTC)
Sqldf03, thanks for that additional insight. I'll find time this weekend to look at the template and see what might work (other editors are also welcome to do so). This will likely start with reverting the change of August 4, to re-set the various MLB single-game infoboxes to their prior state. Thanks. Dmoore5556 (talk) 22:14, 10 September 2021 (UTC)
OK, I believe I fixed it, by adjusting the line in the template that determines when to display the team names and final scores in large font. Essentially, if the visitor_total or home_total fields are used, you get the teams and scores displayed in large font above the linescore (see for example 2009 World Baseball Classic championship). If those fields are not used (and they're not used on MLB pages) it now displays in the "classic" manner (see for example Fort Bragg Game). Other editors are welcome (and encouraged) to review Template:Infobox baseball game around this area. Thanks. Dmoore5556 (talk) 04:09, 11 September 2021 (UTC)
Awesome! Thank you for the work, I appreciate it.Sqldf03 (talk) 16:40, 12 September 2021 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Jones (third baseman)

Curious if players with so little known about them, such as their name, should have stand alone articles, or one for all of them. WP:NCBASE says "Although statistics sites may be reliable sources, they are not sufficient by themselves to establish notability." & "Articles that are not sourced to published material providing significant coverage of the subject (beyond just statistics sites) may be nominated for deletion." Rgrds. --Bison X (talk) 10:39, 24 September 2021 (UTC)

MLB at Field of Dreams

A quick note to seek input on having independent articles for MLB at Field of Dreams games, now that a 2022 playing has been announced. My thought is to follow how MLB Little League Classic serves as a base article, with 2017 MLB Little League Classic et al. as pages about the annual editions. So, much of the game detail currently in article MLB at Field of Dreams would move to a 2021 MLB at Field of Dreams article (Yankees vs. White Sox), with a 2022 MLB at Field of Dreams article (Red Sox vs. Orioles) to follow at some point. Comments welcome, thanks. Dmoore5556 (talk) 00:58, 23 August 2021 (UTC)

It seems to make perfect sense to create Field of Dreams page for each annual game, following the structure of the Little League Classic and annual games. Skilgis1900 (talk) 01:43, 23 August 2021 (UTC)
I suspect the individual games fail WP:CONTINUEDCOVERAGE for a standalone page. The broader MLB at Field of Dreams is sufficient.—Bagumba (talk) 03:26, 23 August 2021 (UTC)
Fair point—I see for example that NFL Kickoff Game has a single article without individual game pages. While several editors (including me) have helped to construct the individual pages for editions of the Little League Classic, perhaps those should be collapsed back into the main MLB Little League Classic article. Having detailed box scores with individual player stats of such regular-season games does feel like overkill, when a linescore could suffice. What do other editors think? Dmoore5556 (talk) 01:54, 10 September 2021 (UTC)
Any editors with input on this? Comments welcome. Dmoore5556 (talk) 23:30, 27 September 2021 (UTC)
I think it will be easier to judge after a few more editions have taken place (or at least one more). isaacl (talk) 04:43, 28 September 2021 (UTC)

World Series as career highlight in player infoboxes

After a small flurry of IP edits at Darryl Strawberry, I just want to make sure I understand the current consensus for player infoboxes. If I have it right, we omit the WS as a highlight if the player wasn't on the WS roster. Larry Hockett (Talk) 03:23, 16 September 2021 (UTC)

I believe Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Baseball/Archive 44 § Inclusion of World Series titles for players not on post season roster. is the last time this was discussed (from there you can trace back to the previous two discussions). There have been numerous points of view presented, without, in my opinion, enough agreement to definitively document an approach. That being said, from the expressed opinions, it seems some editors have used just the World Series roster as a reference, while others have used the postseason roster. isaacl (talk) 04:29, 16 September 2021 (UTC)
Regardless of the infobox, the prose case use more detail. It mentions his cancer at Darryl Strawberry#Later years, but nothing on its impact to his availability.—Bagumba (talk) 04:36, 16 September 2021 (UTC)
Yes, I was going to add that the article should mention if he wasn't placed on the postseason roster, and any appropriately sourced information about why. isaacl (talk) 04:41, 16 September 2021 (UTC)
I added that he placed by Ricky Ledée.—Bagumba (talk) 07:07, 16 September 2021 (UTC)
Note: I've left a notice regarding this discussion at Talk:Darryl Strawberry.—Bagumba (talk) 04:43, 16 September 2021 (UTC)
  • MLB.com and Baseball-Reference only credit him with 3 World Series championships, so that's what I'd go with an infobox. A lot of people get rings for simply having played on a WS team, but it's be pretty tenuous to say they're WS champions. Nohomersryan (talk) 06:32, 16 September 2021 (UTC)
I think there has to be a better understanding here when it comes to this kind of thing, Darryl Strawberry is universally recognized as being a member of the 1998 Yankees team that won the world series. Yes, he did not play in the postseason due to illness, but he did play a significant portion of the regular season and I believe that should qualify him as a champion. Same thing with Dwight Gooden in 1996, spent the entire season with the team, was left off the postseason roster but is still recognized as member of that world series team. Beast from da East (talk) 06:41, 18 September 2021 (UTC)
From the looks of things, according to the NY times article linked on Darryl Strawberry's page, he was in fact on the postseason roster until being replaced before game 3 of the ALDS by Ricky Ledee as stated aboce. Now with that being said, as I believe any player on the postseason roster qualifies as per consensus regardless of having played or not, Strawberry qualifies. But still, it really needs to be better clarified on here. I'm not saying players who were traded mid-season or September call-ups need to be added, but if a player has played a significant amount of time, it just has to be considered. Beast from da East (talk) 07:10, 18 September 2021 (UTC)
The consensus has been that if they didn't play in the WS they don't qualify... and that is what most of the reliable sources such as BR use as a guide as well.Spanneraol (talk) 12:56, 18 September 2021 (UTC)
I believe BR's rule is that they must appear in at least one game during any of the playoff rounds that year, not necessarily the World Series. Just picking a random year, and Gavin Lux and Matt Beaty are both listed as 2020 World Series champions and only appeared in the NLDS and NLCS, respectively. Penale52 (talk) 13:30, 18 September 2021 (UTC)
I would like to emphasize that "person X got a ring" is immaterial and should not be used as the basis for World Series infobox designations. Especially as in recent seasons, teams have awarded rings to a wide swath of personnel, players and non-players alike (e.g. the Red Sox gave Jason Varitek a 2018 World Series ring for his work with the team as a non-uniformed coaching consultant). I've seen editors use "he got a ring" various times (two examples being Tzu-Wei Lin and Dustin Pedroia of the 2018 Red Sox) and while it may be well-intentioned, it is not appropriate criterion. Looking at the discussion above, I really have to disagree with "played a significant amount of time" for a team during the regular season, because it is completely subjective. I believe that what Penale52 states about BR's criterion (essentially, that the player appeared in any postseason game for the champions) is accurate, an example being Tim Wakefield with the 2007 Red Sox (played in the ALCS but not the WS, although I have a dim recollection he may have been on the team's initial WS roster and was removed due to injury... need to check the detail). Good to discuss this topic here. Dmoore5556 (talk) 23:57, 27 September 2021 (UTC)
I looked at this a bit further, and from what I see, BR and MLB.com are using slightly different criterion. Dave Roberts and Tim Wakefield are listed as WS champions for 2004 and 2007, respectively, by BR despite neither of them playing in those respective World Series (both did play in the respective ALCS prior to the WS). In contrast, Roberts and Wakefield are not listed as WS champions for those World Series by MLB. See:
- Tim Wakefield BR and MLB
- Dave Roberts BR and MLB
I take this to further confirm that BR's criterion is "made a playoff appearance for the WS champion", while MLB uses the stricter criterion of "played in the WS for the WS champion". Now, for Darryl Strawberry, he is not listed as a 1998 WS champion by either BR or MLB, as (we can infer) simply being on a team's roster doesn't satisfy their criterion.
- Darryl Strawberry BR and MLB
As we have a couple of (very) reliable sources with evidently different criterion, we may have some leeway on which we give precedence to, but I believe we remain bounded by those criteria, we don't get to make up our own (e.g. we also don't get to define our own criteria that would credit Armando Galarraga with pitching a perfect game). Dmoore5556 (talk) 03:10, 28 September 2021 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Featured article review/Lee Smith (baseball)/archive1

This featured article review is winding down, with most of the largest issues addressed. Any further attention/help here would be greatly appreciated. Hog Farm Talk 03:36, 28 September 2021 (UTC)

Draft:2021 American League Wild Card tie-breaker game

Created, just in case. Additions/updates welcome as warranted. I'll delete it if not needed. Dmoore5556 (talk) 20:26, 3 October 2021 (UTC)

Tie-breaker averted; draft deleted. Dmoore5556 (talk) 00:54, 4 October 2021 (UTC)
I was really hoping for the chaos of a four-way tie.. alas the baseball gods never give us that. Spanneraol (talk) 01:08, 4 October 2021 (UTC)

Random question

(Sorry, this is way too vague to search for, so apologies if this has been asked before.)

I noticed that someone appended "U.S." to the places of birth/death in the Eddie Robinson infobox. While this seems standard elsewhere, I've noticed it's not in nearly any baseball article I've read for... whatever reason. (And most sports articles, for that matter.) Was this ever something officially hashed out, or just some silent consensus? For the record, I don't have any real thoughts on it. Nohomersryan (talk) 05:53, 6 October 2021 (UTC)

Might go against WP:USPLACE but I'm not sure. Klohinxtalk 08:24, 6 October 2021 (UTC)
USPLACE applies mainly to page titles, not necessarily to references to place names.—Bagumba (talk) 09:32, 6 October 2021 (UTC)
Most U.S. baseball biographies don't include nationality at all. Just city and state. WP:INFOBOXNTLY seems to imply that birth place should include country. Now, whether it should be United States or U.S., I couldn't find an exact manual of style reference. However, in looking at soon to be featured articles of the day (ex. Charles Duke), it is abbreviated U.S. and unlinked.Neonblak talk - 22:03, 6 October 2021 (UTC)

Easter-egging team season articles

Is there a consensus about the practice of easter-egging team seasons in baseball articles? Per MOS:EASTEREGG: "Per the principle of least astonishment, make sure that the reader knows what to expect when clicking on a link ... If a link takes readers to somewhere other than where they thought it would, it should at least take them somewhere that makes sense." Bob Welch (baseball) was recently edited which brought this to mind. I can see some uses as sensible, in the Los Angeles Dodgers section:

  • "Welch gained national fame with Los Angeles in 1978" - the link goes to the Dodgers 1978 season (ok)

Whereas some sentences are mixed:

  • "Welch won his first World Series in 1981 with the Los Angeles Dodgers after they defeated the New York Yankees in six games." - 1981 links to that year's World Series (ok - but the previous usage above suggests linking "World Series in 1981" might be better) but the team links link to each of those team's 1981 seasons (hmm - both are linked in the 1981 World Series article, and here seem weird, as they're not obvious. I expect a team link to go to the team article itself.)

And others are outright awkward:

  • "In 1983, he threw a complete-game shutout and hit a solo home run for his team's only run." - the word "team" gives no clues, but links to the 1983 Dodgers article (why?)

Personally, I am a fan of keeping such team season links obvious, such as "With the Dodgers in 1983", but wanted to check in for possible consensus. Echoedmyron (talk) 10:43, 6 October 2021 (UTC)

I agree that links to the team's relevant season is useful in a bio. They do need to be intuitive. As for the above, I'd rewrite it as "Welch won his first World Series with the Dodgers in 1981" (he had been with the Dodgers, so no reason to repeat "Los Angeles Dodgers") and "In 1983, he threw a complete-game shutout and hit a solo home run for his team's only run." ("his team" is more intutively the Dodgers, not the Dodgers' 1983 season.)—Bagumba (talk) 13:29, 6 October 2021 (UTC)
Personally, I don't like this practice in prose, as it breaks the best web practice of having descriptive link text (I am more amenable to these types of links in tables, where a legend can be used to describe the destination). The links require more cognitive overhead to process and incrementally add to the easter egg problem, which is cumulative across all Wikipedia pages. Each unexpected link may only erode predictability a little, but eventually a tipping point is reached and readers become hesitant to follow links. I also suspect that for those using alternative browsing interfaces such as screen readers, the ability to use neighbouring context to infer a link destination is more constrained. In particular I don't like linking team names to team season pages in prose. But I recognize that more people (on this talk page, at least) support the practice than not. isaacl (talk) 15:13, 6 October 2021 (UTC)
It can be made clearer for instance by changing the text to read "Welch won his first World Series with the Dodgers during the 1981 season". Adding "season" to the text makes it more clear that you are going to the season article. That's what I tend to do in bio articles. Spanneraol (talk) 15:26, 6 October 2021 (UTC)
Yes, it's better to be explicit with "season", but dropping it in later mentions can be fine for people with longer careers, where repetitive "in the xxxx season" can be mixed with implicit "in xxxx" for both brevity and variety.—Bagumba (talk) 23:24, 7 October 2021 (UTC)
Explicit constructs such as "DiMaggio played for the 1939 Yankees" are helpful; I often find implicit constructs, such as "DiMaggio's first All-Star Game", to be unhelpful and sometimes rather annoying. There's no hard rule (that I know of) against the latter, but I try to avoid them and I wish more editors would do the same. Dmoore5556 (talk) 01:37, 7 October 2021 (UTC)

RM: José Abreu (infielder) → José Abreu (Negro leagues)

An editor has requested for José Abreu (infielder) to be moved to José Abreu (Negro leagues). Since you had some involvement with José Abreu (infielder), you might want to participate in the move discussion (if you have not already done so). Havelock Jones (talk) 07:28, 12 October 2021 (UTC)

RM: Enrique Hernández (baseball) → Kiké Hernández

Under discussion here, if any editors would like to add comment. Dmoore5556 (talk) 01:04, 23 October 2021 (UTC)

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