Wikipedia talk:Naming conventions (Polish rulers)/Archive 01
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Using 'Hedwig' for Jadwiga sounds really bad for me. I'm for translating attributes (the Great, of Adjou etc.) and Western names (John, Alexander, Louis, August etc.) and leaving Slavic names in Polish spelling (Boleslaw, Wladyslaw etc.). --Taw
- I agree about Jadwiga, since Hedwig sounds very German and could be confusing. I know that Jan is often used in English (like Jan Hus) -- but is Wladyslaw normal for English or is it something like Vladislav/-slas? or Ladislas? I will try to remember to check in my books on the 30 Years' War, etc... JHK
This discussion is very similar to that on Confucius vs Kong-Fu-Zi or Taoism vs Daoism. This is also about how the English tradition of dropping much original information which bothers the native speakers of the foreign language. This is also about how some words or names have already become part of the English language and hence the original and accuracy no longer matters. Moving to the more accurate versions will invalidate many existing literature and references from older sources. However, I believe the solution is the same. Since wikipedia allows you to use redirects and links, both versions of spelling should be in wikipedia with cross references specified in the article itself. e.g.
Kazimierz III Wielki (aka Casimir the Great,Casimir III the Great in English)
or
Casimir the Great,Casimir III the Great (aka Kazimierz III Wielki to the natives)
should do the trick. By using redirects, both can be used as titles to the same article.
- Anyway it would be good to strike a consensus anyway for the sake of clarity.
Unfortunately, The Library of the Congress adds to the confusion.
- Mieszko I == Mieszko
- Boleslaw I Chrobry == Boleslaw I (the Brave)
So far I have been going with the English names followed by, in brackets, a list of all names in other languages -- as many as seems appropriate:
King Fred the Refulgent (German Friedrich XIII, French Frederique le Bleu, Tkung Nd!ugu)
- This is an English Encyclopedia. It would be unnecessary to list the name in Mongolian or German. However, if the name is a Polish name, then we need the Polish original for researchers to trace for more info in the native sources, and the English name for English speaking readers. Likewise for other languages, e.g. Chinese + English, or Japanese + English, or French + English etc.
- Well, that's why I said "as seems appropriate". I'll stick in the names where he's important in the history of a country that speaks that language so that, as you say, it's likely to cover all the sources. -- User:Paul Drye
- I choose to disagree. For example, Jesus is known around the world. Should we enter His name in all languages known to mankind? I don't think so. His name should be in English because wikipedia is in English. His name should also be in Hebrew (and transliteration of the pronunciation) because that was His language. That's it. Two languages and exactly two languages are appropriate for the entry.
- As seems appropriate, like I say.
Shouldn't the alternative language spellings just be a redirect to the 'proper' original Polish spelling? That way everybody's happy...fojxl 22:24 Apr 4, 2003 (UTC)
To add to the confusion: some of the Polish kings were of foreign origin - shouldn't they have their native names (Louis d'Anjou, Istvan Batory, August II der Starke etc.) listed too? -- SzymonS
It seems to me that English historians created English versions of the names of Polish rulers based either directly on Polish ortography or Latin equivalents. Thus we have Polish-based versions, usually Polish names without diacrits and sometimes with W's changed into V's and Y's changed into I's, e.g.:
- Wladyslaw or Vladislav for Władysław,
or Latin-based versions, i.e. exactly Latin or Latin with Anglicized endings, e.g.:
- Ladislaus or Ladislas.
I suggest using Polish or Polish-based names for early Piasts whose names were typically Slavic and who usually didn't rule in other countries as well. The same would apply to Polish nobles who were elected kings in 17-18 centuries. However, I'd use Latin-based versions for later rulers, especially to avoid confusion if the one Polish ruler reigned also in Hungary, Bohemia or Lithuania. Besides Latin was an official language in Poland and throughout Europe in that times. This way we'd have:
- Mieszko I, Boleslav the Brave, Jan III Sobieski, Stanisław August Poniatowski, etc.
- but:
- Ladislaus the Short, Casimir the Great, Ladislaus II, Casimir IV, Sigismung Vasa etc.
- Kpalion 21:57, 12 Mar 2004 (UTC)
I changed my mind. Now I think all names should be Latin-based, e.g. Ladislaus, Boleslaus, Casimir, Sigismund, etc. The same should apply to Polish saints, e.g. Saint Stanislaus. No cognomens, apart from the most famous rulers (and those of the Dismemberment period) whose cognomens should be written in English, e.g. Boleslaus the Brave, Casimir the Great. Elective kings should have both their given and family name mentioned in the article title, e.g. Michael Coribut Wiśniowiecki, Stanislaus August Poniatowski. Kpalion 02:12, 23 Mar 2004 (UTC)
Therefore I suggest the complete list of Polish rulers should look this way:
- Siemowit of Poland
- Lestek of Poland
- Siemomysl of Poland
- Mieszko I of Poland
- Boleslaus the Brave of Poland
- Mieszko II of Poland
- Casimir I of Poland
- Boleslaus II of Poland
- Ladislaus Herman of Poland
- Zbigniew of Poland
- Boleslaus III of Poland
- Ladislaus the Exiled of Poland
- Boleslaus the Curly of Poland
- Casimir the Just of Poland
- Mieszko the Old of Poland
- Ladislaus the Stick-legged (?) of Poland
- Leszek the White of Poland
- Mieszko the Knot-legged (?) of Poland
- Konrad of Mazovia of Poland
- Henry the Bearded of Poland
- Henry the Pious of Poland
- Boleslaus the Shy of Poland
- Leszek the Black of Poland
- Henry Probus of Poland
- Przemysl II of Poland
- Wenceslaus II of Bohemia
- Wenceslaus III of Bohemia
- Ladislaus the Short of Poland
- Casimir the Great of Poland
- Louis I of Hungary
- Hedwig of Poland
- Ladislaus II of Poland
- Ladislaus III of Poland
- Casimir IV of Poland
- John Albert of Poland
- Alexander of Poland
- Sigismund I of Poland
- Sigismund II of Poland
- Henry III of France
- Stephen Bathory
- Sigismund III Vasa
- Ladislaus IV Vasa
- John Casimir Vasa
- Michael Coribut Wisniowiecki
- John III Sobieski
- Augustus II Wettin
- Stanislaus Leszczynski
- August III Wettin
- Stanislaus August Poniatowski
Kpalion 02:35, 23 Mar 2004 (UTC)
- Siemowit of Poland
- Lestek of Poland
- Siemomysl of Poland
were not historical rulers, so they should not be on the list --Christopher51 14:28, 3 August 2005 (UTC)
Wladyslaw Laskonogi
Wladyslaw Laskonogi is Ladislaus Spindleshanks in English (as used by Norman Davies). Compare: Edward Longshanks, king of England (Polish: Edward Długonogi). And Ladislaus the Exile rather then Exiled. Ausir 11:01, 21 Jul 2004 (UTC)
Władysław naming controversy
See: Talk:Ladislaus for details. Ausir 03:01, 26 Jul 2004 (UTC)
To do
This needs to be finally wikified and names copied from List of Polish rulers, which also should be updated - I think it containts many redirects now. Also, when looking at Point 3 of Wikipedia:Naming conventions (names and titles): Take care to use the correct name of the state at the time when a monarch reigned. I wonder if kings from Union of Lublin to partitions (1569-1795) shouldn't be ...of Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth instead ...of Poland? --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus Talk 21:37, 13 July 2005 (UTC)
- Well, at least it would be nice to have expanded 'List of Polish rulers with alternative names'. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus Talk 10:03, 14 July 2005 (UTC)
Renaming
See Talk:List of Polish monarchs#Naming.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus Talk 19:44, 19 December 2005 (UTC)