Wikipedia talk:BOLD, revert, discuss cycle

Question

I decided to add an addition to a page that barely gets any editor traffic (and by that, I mean the last revision was back in November 2021). How long does it take for a bold edit to become the new consensus if it does not get reverted? 172.112.210.32 (talk) 14:06, 26 April 2022 (UTC)

There is no rule. Also, it doesn't matter. Wikipedia:Consensus can change, so even if we were to say something silly, like "Your edit will achieve status as The Official Consensus Version™ unless it is reverted before 3:41 a.m. on the first Tuesday in June", someone could show up the next day and change the article. Consensus is about what editors agree to right now. The second they stop agreeing to something, there is no consensus any longer. WhatamIdoing (talk) 16:57, 26 April 2022 (UTC)

See also Wikipedia:Silence and consensus. - Butwhatdoiknow (talk) 17:01, 26 April 2022 (UTC)

WP:Enforced BRD

We need to add this in somewhere, anyone have suggestions before I go boldly breaking something? Valereee (talk) 14:27, 21 July 2023 (UTC)

@Valereee, why do you think this needs to be mentioned here?

Despite the name, "Enforced BRD" is not BRD. It's just a temporary form of WP:0RR, with permission to re-revert if you post on the talk page and wait 24 hours. WhatamIdoing (talk) 00:00, 22 July 2023 (UTC)

(For anyone unfamiliar with this, see the list of articles boldly assigned to it a few years ago, User:Awilley/Consensus Required vs Enforced BRD and User:Awilley/Enforced BRD FAQ.) WhatamIdoing (talk) 00:10, 22 July 2023 (UTC)

Why not apply WP:1RR as a hard rule to be applied to any editor on any page for 24 hours after performing any BRD edit? Ignore whether it is a revert, or an indirect reinstatement of a previous version of the page, it may be done only once, until a talk page post and the passing of 24 hours.

BRD is efficient, but dangerous. A simple observation is that BRD has only one R. SmokeyJoe (talk) 00:44, 22 July 2023 (UTC)

@SmokeyJoe, my question is about current policy which is at WP:Enforced BRD but which I think there are long-term editors who are unaware of it. Valereee (talk) 01:23, 22 July 2023 (UTC)

@WhatamIdoing, I feel like people aren't aware of it. I was in a discussion recently at the user talk of an experienced user who was blocked over it and credibly claimed they weren't aware of the new implications. Valereee (talk) 01:15, 22 July 2023 (UTC)

I think that a re-write of the surprisingly uninformative edit notice and the talk page banner would be far more effective. I'd start by removing the links to this page, and I think it's worth considering repeating the entire contents of the footnote at Wikipedia:Contentious topics#cite note-4 in both places. WhatamIdoing (talk) 02:23, 22 July 2023 (UTC)

Bold, revert, monologue

Should we include any guidance for the case when, after a revert, the bold editor explains their reasons in talk but the reverter does not respond? Is it reasonable to attempt the edit again after, say, a week, with an edit summary linking to the justification in the talk monologue, or does a refusal to join the discussion effectively kill the edit? Certes (talk) 21:33, 12 August 2023 (UTC)

@Certes, in such a situation, BRD per se is not really possible. The idea with BRD is that in a difficult situation, an experienced, diplomatic editor makes a bold compromise edit, and then chats up whichever one (1) person is sufficiently unhappy with the edit to revert it, and negotiates with that one editor until they have both agreed to something better than what was there before.

If the "Very Interested Person" doesn't respond, then BRD collapses, and the bold editor has to take a different approach. These could be any of the Wikipedia:BRD#Alternatives or just the everyday, consensus-oriented Wikipedia:Editing policy#Talking and editing rules (the ones that are so fundamental that experienced editors seem to forget they are also official policy).

In the situation you describe, many editors (including me) use an edit summary like "Per talk page" and post a "Since there were no objections during the last week..." comment on the talk page. It would, of course, be patently unreasonable to let any uncommunicative, drive-by reverter WP:OWN the article by saying that anything that gets reverted can't ever be tried again. WhatamIdoing (talk) 00:41, 13 August 2023 (UTC)

To prevent edit warring

The fact that BRD does help to prevent edit warring is hard to deny, so why literally remove mention of it from the lead? That may not be "the key point" (a highly undefined and personal interpretation not necessarily shared by anyone else), but that is one of its most common functions and results.

How BRD is handled is a bright red line. Violating BRD is often an act of edit warring, and that violation is often the only way to prove who started an edit war. Whoever violated BRD is the one who started the edit war, and admins can see that as convincing evidence and hand out warnings and blocks accordingly. I've seen this done many times by admins who understand this as an important function of BRD. It hurts nothing to mention this in the lead. The deletion is a bizarre ownership move as this is not a one-time exclusionary move but repeats a pattern of ownership aimed at limiting the description of BRD. Be more open to the realities of how others use it and understand it. BRD is more important than one editor's limited description would allow. Expand your mind. -- Valjean (talk) (PING me) 17:37, 4 October 2023 (UTC)

I would say myself that BRD is primarily designed to discourage reverting, particularly straight up reverts (BRR). One doesn't need to be discouraged from edit warring, you just must not do it, BRD or no. Selfstudier (talk) 18:00, 4 October 2023 (UTC)

I agree, that is if you mean re-reverting without discussion. In this situation, reverting the revert of an initial bold edit would be an act of edit warring and possibly the start of an edit war. It may end there, or it might get repeated, in which case the matter has escalated to a full-blown conflict. We don't want that, and we want to stop it from even starting. Why? Because of some fundamental PAG and principles here. Here are a few:

1. No one has a right to own content or their own edit or article they have created.
2. Everyone has a right to make an initial bold edit (that isn't just driveby vandalism or purely NOTFORUM nonsense).
3. Everyone has a right to revert that bold edit if they have legitimate concerns about it.
4. We expect editors to work with other editors, no be solo editors who will not respect the input from other editors. That input happens on the talk page.
5. BRD mandates that BRR does not happen, that edit warring not happen, that collaboration with others is the way forward. It tells the one reverted to discuss on the talk page in an effort to seek a consensus version or other solution.

Does that make sense to you? Is that more-or-less close to your point? ("One doesn't need to be discouraged from edit warring, you just must not do it, BRD or no.") BRD just puts in words how to understand the situation and stay away from that bright red line between you and an edit war. Don't cross it. -- Valjean (talk) (PING me) 18:58, 4 October 2023 (UTC)

Another "one of its most common functions and results", especially when it's (IMO incorrectly) interpreted as "Nyah nyah nyah, I get to revert you and you don't get to revert me – I don't have to discuss anything but you can't edit until you get written proof of consensus on the talk page (which I'm going to refuse to participate in because I'm so busy reverting content creators)", is preventing change to articles, but I don't think that is worth mentioning in the very first sentence, either.

The point is to find consensus. The very first sentence should stick to the main point. WhatamIdoing (talk) 19:36, 4 October 2023 (UTC)

Hyperbole doesn't help here. That "Nyah nyah.." is obviously not a legitimate type of reversion, as described in my point 3 above: "Everyone has a right to revert that bold edit if they have legitimate concerns about it." BOLD added. Yes, there are people who abuse BRD. Let's stay focused on its proper use. No one is disputing the importance of "to find consensus". It's just not the only value of BRD. BRD dictates a process that prevents actions that avoid or block reaching the actions on the talk page where consensus can be reached. Edit warring prevents a consensus discussion from occurring. BRD's value in preventing edit warring is vital if you want "to find consensus". -- Valjean (talk) (PING me) 19:46, 4 October 2023 (UTC)

I'm not so sure that many editors think "I'd like to avoid an edit war, so I'm going to use BRD in this situation." But let's assume they do. Thinking about WP:CREEP, why do we need to say that in the first sentence? - Butwhatdoiknow (talk) 20:12, 4 October 2023 (UTC)

I think many stop when reminded of that BRD formulation of the red line. Consensus cannot happen if edit warring gets in the way, and BRD helps to prevent it. It gets people to not do BRR and gets them to discuss. That's what we want. This is not an either-or situation. It's both, and they are often intimately linked, so mention of both makes sense. -- Valjean (talk) (PING me) 20:38, 4 October 2023 (UTC)

I'm sorry, I'm not sure what you mean by "reminded of that BRD formulation of the red line." Would you please elaborate? - Butwhatdoiknow (talk) 06:07, 5 October 2023 (UTC)

I mention it above. BRD is a clear formulation that warns to not BRR. There is a red line after BR. Go to the talk page and discuss after it. Don't edit war by re-reverting. -- Valjean (talk) (PING me) 06:13, 5 October 2023 (UTC)

It is allowed to rerevert, even in a 1R situation. If an editor does that habitually, that's a problem, a behavioral problem, but it isn't edit warring, technically. Selfstudier (talk) 11:00, 5 October 2023 (UTC)

I don't think of BRD as creating a "red line". A red line sounds like some sort of mandatory situation (a red stop sign, a red "Do not enter" sign).

I think the feeling we need from BRD is more like "You tried to solve the sticky problem, and you got reverted? Congratulations on being one of today's lucky people! Let me show you a cool way to make progress here..." WhatamIdoing (talk) 04:41, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

The text you want to add says "The BOLD, revert, discuss cycle (BRD) is one of many optional strategies that editors may use to . . . prevent edit warring." I have two concerns regarding the proposed change.

1. The text does not achieve your goal of providing a warning to avoid re-reverting.

2. The first sentence of the BRD page is not the place to remind editors to not edit war. - Butwhatdoiknow (talk) 16:29, 5 October 2023 (UTC)

This is an essay and structurally merely gives these tips, in the context of a particular sequence (of many possible sequences) or portions of that sequence:

1. Be bold (once). This is a norm, nothing to be afraid of.
2. If #1 has occurred, feel free to revert it as the next step. This is a norm, nothing to be afraid of.
3. If #1->#2 has occurred, there should be discussion rather than making the edit again. This is the end of the particular sequence that this essay refers to.

IMO this isn't the place to go beyond that; we have policies that do that.North8000 (talk) 22:55, 5 October 2023 (UTC)