Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Miscellaneous/2023 May 15
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May 15[edit]
National identity[edit]
Do white ethnic fans in general, and English national team footballers, tend to describe themselves as more English or British? Thanks. 93.41.96.86 (talk) 20:35, 15 May 2023 (UTC)
- The question is too unspecified to answer meaningfully. Which "white ethnic fans" – English, Scottish, Greek, Romanian, Manx? In what context – while cheering on a team, while discussing European politics? While filling out a census form?
- I, for example, am by most definitions "white" (though I tend not to think in such terms – ultimately, we're all of African descent) and might describe myself as English, British or European depending on context. Also, colour does not necessarily correlate with culture, which is more immediately relevant to most (unbigotted) people.
- An England team player could potentially have been qualified to play for up to five different national teams, by virtue of his/her four grandparents' nationalities and his/her own long-term country of residence. (It's not uncommon for a footballer to have played for one country's team at youth level and another at senior level.) They might define themselves as English while playing for England but, for example, British or British-Cypriot or Cypriot in their family home or at their local pub. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 90.199.210.77 (talk) 13:41, 16 May 2023 (UTC)
- As with everything connected with British society, it's very complicated. This article, Is it the English question – or the British question? The three strands of Britishness, tries to unpick the conundrum. Alansplodge (talk) 16:30, 16 May 2023 (UTC)
- Most people contain multitudes, which is to say that how one interacts with the various cultures of the world, and ancestries, and the like, is not easily summed up in a single word, nor fixed in time, etc. People can be multiple things in any number of different contexts. --Jayron32 18:13, 16 May 2023 (UTC)
- Agreed. As affirmed in the LSE article, there are also significant scope of regional identities within England. On all-English level these identities are less prominent than 'English' and 'British' identities, but I'd think that those numbers aren't evenly distributed. Here a seminar on Northern identities in politics. --Soman (talk) 18:23, 16 May 2023 (UTC)
- Although not many people would give their nationality as "Yorkshire". A possible exception is Cornwall, where there is modest but vociferous support for Cornish nationalism and as a result, one can officially define oneself as "Cornish" in the UK Census. Alansplodge (talk) 22:10, 19 May 2023 (UTC)
- A few years ago I was able to vote for the Wessex Independence Party, but I don't think it enjoys a groundswell of popular support. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 90.199.210.77 (talk) 00:06, 22 May 2023 (UTC)
- Although not many people would give their nationality as "Yorkshire". A possible exception is Cornwall, where there is modest but vociferous support for Cornish nationalism and as a result, one can officially define oneself as "Cornish" in the UK Census. Alansplodge (talk) 22:10, 19 May 2023 (UTC)
- As a side comment, it's very far from unusual for an athlete who lives in the United States, and may have spent all of most of his or her youth in the U.S., to play in international contests (e.g. the Olympics, the World Cup, the Grand Slam, international golfing) for a country of birth or of descent if she or he can claim nationality (e.g. grandchildren of Italian or Irish citizens can inherit Italian or Irish nationality).
- I think that this is completely honest on both sides most of the time, but the athlete benefits from a less-competitive field, while the assumed or ancestral country can boast of being represented by a world-class athlete with a reasonable chance of winning it an international trophy. —— Shakescene (talk) 15:58, 17 May 2023 (UTC)
- Olympic-class athletes who are inhabitants of Northern Ireland are free to choose whether to compete for the Olympic Federation of Ireland or Team GB, but that's a whole other can of worms. Alansplodge (talk) 11:00, 21 May 2023 (UTC)
- Agreed. As affirmed in the LSE article, there are also significant scope of regional identities within England. On all-English level these identities are less prominent than 'English' and 'British' identities, but I'd think that those numbers aren't evenly distributed. Here a seminar on Northern identities in politics. --Soman (talk) 18:23, 16 May 2023 (UTC)
- Most people contain multitudes, which is to say that how one interacts with the various cultures of the world, and ancestries, and the like, is not easily summed up in a single word, nor fixed in time, etc. People can be multiple things in any number of different contexts. --Jayron32 18:13, 16 May 2023 (UTC)
- As with everything connected with British society, it's very complicated. This article, Is it the English question – or the British question? The three strands of Britishness, tries to unpick the conundrum. Alansplodge (talk) 16:30, 16 May 2023 (UTC)