Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Miscellaneous/2009 February 18

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February 18

Dedicated Sci Fi browsing

I hate fantasy. I really do. Not just because I don't like it but because I love science fiction and I have yet to find anyplace to browse books online in a systematic fashion that doesn't mix them together, and because it's so easy to churn out dragons and elves and orcs and magic, there's ten times as much fantasy which I must slog through in order to find a decent science fiction book to buy. I go to Amazon or Barnes and Noble and scroll through page after page; every fifteenth or twentieth book is sci fi—it's so difficult to browse in this fashion. Anyone have any solution? Anyplace that doesn't blithely mix them together, as if they're similar at all?--70.19.73.184 (talk) 04:47, 18 February 2009 (UTC)

It may be worth considering that, when the relevant professional writers' association as well as the two major awards aren't segregated, the distinction is not so clear-cut as you describe. At what point of fantasy/sci-fi blend do you lose interest? At what point does a fictional element transition from being science-fictiony to fantastical? At what point is a sufficiently advanced magic indistinguishable from science? And most importantly, will anyone else's criteria match yours? If you really want to find good books, I recommend you continue to browse through the entire collection. Personally, I find it simple to quickly perform my own categorization. On the other hand, I'm not certain what method you're using that requires you to "scroll through page after page" to determine what a book is about from a high-level perspective. Alternately, consider starting with the Nebula or Hugo Awards for Best Novel (or the list of joint winners) and go from there. Just watch out for the ones that are fantasy. — Lomn 05:15, 18 February 2009 (UTC)

Following EC: Just subscribe to Analog. Google books by authors whose stories you liked there, or just go with their recommended reading list. You can also search with a combination of certain keywords at Amazon (e.g interstellar or hyperdrive). That should narrow things down. Befriending the Librarian at your local public library or doing a "bookstore run" and skimming through their offerings may also work. (You can usually tell fantasy from sci-fi by the artwork on the cover and authors rarely do both. Forum or chat room members at websites for si-fi authors will also be happy to recommend other things they liked. List of science fiction authors says it's mixed, but also might offer a starting point.76.97.245.5 (talk) 05:17, 18 February 2009 (UTC)

(ec) I think you've been reading the wrong fantasy. Sure there are a lot of re-workings of the LOTR, but fantasy goes much further than that. Michael Moorcock, Terry Pratchett, Tom Holt, Piers Anthony (Apprentice Adept is one of the better mixtures of SF/Fantasy), Thomas Anstey Guthrie (F. Anstey), Edward Plunkett, 18th Baron of Dunsany (Lord Dunsany), Harlan Ellison, Philip Jose Farmer, Neil Gaiman and Guy Gavriel Kay are all fantasy authors that turn out high quality material that is nothing like the mass produced stuff that most people believe is all there is to fantasy. Enter CambridgeBayWeather, waits for audience applause, not a sausage 05:43, 18 February 2009 (UTC)

You all have it wrong, believing I am a beginning reader. I have read thousands and thousands of science fiction books. I think with a few exceptions I have read every Hugo, Nebula and Saturn winning book since the 1950s through today as well as most of the nominees. Science fiction and fantasy are quite distinct, and trotting out Clarke's "indistinguishable from magic" does not change books extrapolating science concepts into books about magic. They are as different as can be. Sure, there are some authors who one can be said to mix the two, but very few and most fantasy is very clearly so. And yes, I have read all the leading lights in Fantasy as well as most of the books by every famous sci fi authors you can name who have also written fantasy. I've read Moorcock and Pratchett and as for Anthony, well I liked Macroscope and got a kick out of Battle Circle many moons ago and a few others have merit, but he is such a misogynist. Anyway, been there done that. Farmer is a good example of someone who writes some fantasyish books but whose sci fi is distinctly sci fi (a better example might be the wonderful Jack L. Chalker). I happen to love Farmer, but again, this is old news; I've read his entire catalogue. You didn't realize it, and my original post does not give you enough to go on which is my error, but you're trying to teach your grandmother how to suck eggs. I know the genres inside and out and what I'm looking for is the actually new to buy. Most fantasy books and science fiction books are actually marked as the one or the other on their spines. So while there are rare exceptions, most are indeed patently in one category, even identified as such, and yet there's no way to search that I've found. The only suggestion above (thank you all for trying) that actually addresses the search issue is to place a science fiction concept in the search as a delimiter such as interstellar. It's a good thought but the method is so crude—too crude to be useful—such a delimiter that does pretty much exclude fantasy, but also cuts out 90% of science fiction as well. Unfortunately, The Lord of the Rings movies and Harry Potter (shudder) have instituted a fantasy boom. Don't get me wrong, I loved the Lord of the Rings (probably before many of you were born) but its fostered a giant cottage industry that leaves science fiction books buried liked needles in a haystack when searching or recent science fiction releases at least at all websites I have tried.--70.19.73.184 (talk) 13:44, 18 February 2009 (UTC)

I agree with 70.19 to some extent. There is absolutely a gray area between Sci-Fi and fantasy, but the large majority of the content falls cleanly into one category or the other. I'm not sure how you'd organize a bookshelf on that continuum and still be able to find what you're looking for, though. (Especially since some of the best content would be in that twilight area. It's mostly the hacks that wind up at the extremes.)

I suspect that the easiest way to organize it so that 70.19 is happy at the book store would be to break it into two sections : "Sword and Sorcery", "Other Sci-Fi/Fantasy".

While we're at it, we could make the fantasy readers happy and divide into three shelves. "Sword and Sorcery", "Space Operas", "Other Sci-Fi/Fantasy". I'd go to that bookstore. APL (talk) 14:10, 18 February 2009 (UTC)

FWIW - I get my sci-fi 'fix' at "Half Price Books" - they separate 'sci-fi' from 'fantasy' (at least at the few stores I've visited here in Texas) - and their second-hand books are really cheap. They buy used books too - but the amount they pay is so tiny that I prefer to give mine away. You can find a store here. SteveBaker (talk) 00:06, 19 February 2009 (UTC)

You can use online browsing on sites with tags (Amazon, LibraryThing, Shelfari, ...) searching primarily by tags like sf, scifi, science fiction and so on. Steewi (talk) 00:09, 19 February 2009 (UTC)

I want two more categories: technical sci-fi and sci-fi likely to make your breakfast fall out of your face. Separating horror stories from pure sci-fi is even more difficult than sifting out the dwarf and wizard stuff. 76.97.245.5 (talk) 00:20, 19 February 2009 (UTC)

I need to know about post mail tracking numbers

What all letters mean in post mail traking nombers?!

for example:

LC733007845US

Lc ?!

I want to know all the meaning of the first two letters in it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.93.18.60 (talk) 09:26, 18 February 2009 (UTC)

The first two digits usually indicate the type of number or mail it is. For example, RR is for registered mail. From what I've read, the LC number is used exclusively for customs tracking and is not something and ordinary customer has any use for Nil Einne (talk) 09:31, 18 February 2009 (UTC)

Thanks, But I want full list of all tracking numbers used in post mail please. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.108.54.117 (talk) 08:43, 20 February 2009 (UTC)

Well try asking a post office then. Nil Einne (talk) 13:27, 24 February 2009 (UTC)

Strange obsessive-compulsive person

'Sup RD, long time no see, for I have been on holiday in London. Whilst visiting the National Gallery I was distracted by what appeared to be the noise of a clicking pen. Upon turning around I discovered a Japanese woman clicking the pen very systematically while wearing a surgical mask. My mother said she's seen a lot of these people around and all Japanese. Is this a specific disorder or type of person and is it exclusively a Japanese thing or what? Apologies for lack of detail. Avnas Ishtaroth _{drop me a line} 11:40, 18 February 2009 (UTC)

Could be something along the lines of Paris Syndrome, a form of Stendhal syndrome. Lanfear's Bane | t 12:02, 18 February 2009 (UTC)

I can't say if the pen-clicking is a cultural thing, but wearing the surgical mask is a normal occurance in Japan. Japanese people often wear them to protect themselves from pollen in hay fever times and to prevent spreading germs if they are sick. Laenir (talk) 14:12, 18 February 2009 (UTC)

I'd suggest that pen-clicking was more a sign of nervousness - which would fit with the alien environment that has been presumed. As George Eliot says, "Do we not wile away moments of inanity or fatigued waiting by repeating some trivial movement or sound, until the repetition has bred a want, which is incipient habit?". - Jarry1250 ^{(t, c)} 15:19, 18 February 2009 (UTC)

Indeed, surgical masks are very common among the Japanese (and Chinese), she probably just had a cold and didn't want to give it to anyone else. Pen-clicking is a pretty common absent-minded habit, I certainly do it. --Tango (talk) 17:45, 18 February 2009 (UTC)

Thankyou very much! I didn't think it was Paris Syndrome. Well now I know it's a normal thing. Thanks! Avnas Ishtaroth _{drop me a line} 07:04, 19 February 2009 (UTC)

My comment just proved that you should think before you type. Holy overdiagnosis Batman! Lanfear's Bane | t 14:12, 19 February 2009 (UTC)

It's a great example of diagnosing a zebra. --Carnildo (talk) 00:50, 20 February 2009 (UTC)

Beautifully apt. I attribute it to having watched too much House MD. Damn you TV! Lanfear's Bane | t 15:15, 20 February 2009 (UTC)

Egg Whites

I have a recipe for the cookie "whoopie pies" and for the filling it calls for raw egg whites mixed with shortening and sugar. It does not call for cooking. Is it ok to eat raw egg whites???170.232.128.11 (talk) 13:21, 18 February 2009 (UTC)

Although it is possible for Salmonella to be in both the while and the yolk of the egg, the white does not readily support bacterial growth. I'd avoid if you are serving to the very young or old or people whose immune systems are compromised.--14:09, 18 February 2009 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.19.73.184 (talk)

Or pregnant people.86.197.41.41 (talk) 15:12, 18 February 2009 (UTC)DT

Here, indicates the filling is cooked, followed from the article - whoopie pie. Lanfear's Bane | t 15:29, 18 February 2009 (UTC)

You can also use pasteurized eggs. I wouldn't specifically advise someone it's okay to eat raw (non-pasteurized) egg product, but will mention that I don't have a problem with doing it personally. Matt Deres (talk) 17:21, 18 February 2009 (UTC)

If that doesn't float your boat, you could always make a pavlova. -- JackofOz (talk) 23:01, 18 February 2009 (UTC)

Maybe it is just a reflex, but whenever I hear pavlova I salivate. . --Cookatoo.ergo.ZooM (talk) 20:59, 19 February 2009 (UTC)

Why do Australians always drag that triffle out every time food gets mentioned? Is it maybe because your only OTHER culinary contribution to the world is an unpalatable spread made from the crud left at the bottom of beer brewing vats? --Jayron32.talk.contribs 05:51, 19 February 2009 (UTC)

Just for the record, the pav is a kiwi invention... And marmite is far superior to vegemite. Aaadddaaammm (talk) 08:22, 19 February 2009 (UTC)

Yeah - lest anyone even think of crossing that particular line...Marmite is (a) utterly delicious on hot buttered toast and (b) quite utterly unobtainable in Texas. SteveBaker (talk) 18:57, 19 February 2009 (UTC)

In the Australian citizenship test they give you a booklet that tells you that Pavlova is part of Australian culture. Odd considering I never had any there for the 6 or so years I lived there. Not too surprising however considering how hard it is to find good food there, and how when one taxi driver said Australia has the best food in the world we pissed ourselves laughing. ;) I await the Australian brigaid's defense of this and Vegemite ;) Rfwoolf (talk) 05:44, 20 February 2009 (UTC)

I only mentioned pavs because the topic was about egg whites. I wept bitter tears when I discovered we'd gone off topic, something that's never happened before in the history of this page - but I dried my eyes and got over it, so I'll play the game.

Vegemite - entirely a matter of opinion. As is any other food you care to name (and yes, some people don't actually like chocolate - weird). I've pointedly gone and toasted some bread and spread it with lashings of said substance, and am munching it as I type. Delicious! I think I'll go and have some more. If you don't like it, I have a novel idea - eat something else.

"Hard to find good food there" - if you intend that to mean "Australia doesn't have much good food", then I'd say that's the greatest load of rubbish I've ever heard in my life. It depends on many factors as to which foods you might come across in your travels. If you're looking for something specific, it may depend on where you are. Country places tend to have a somewhat more conservative range of goods than the cities; and many country places close their doors earlier than city places do. If the demand cannot justify keeping them open, they'd be mad to keep on trading, but not actually trading. But that aside, if you couldn't find much good food here in 6 years (!!!!!), Rwoolf, you sure as hell weren't looking in the right places. Did you ever get to Melbourne? (Not that you'd need to in order to find good food here, but I just mention it as the recognised food capital of Australia.)

Even if the bulk of our cuisine is borrowed from elsewhere (which is also true of many other places), we have, subject to the factors I mentioned above, as good a range and variety of foods available here as you'd find anywhere. Any cuisine you can possibly imagine, we have a restaurant for. Maybe not in every small town, but certainly in the capitals. No one outlet has the whole gamut of our cuisine available; you have to be eclectic in your shopping (again, very true of other places).

In its mongrelisation of every other cuisine, Australia is to food as English is to language. How's that for a nice metaphor? I think I'll frame it.

I myself have not had a pavlova for probably over a year - wait, I had a piece at a New Year's Eve party - but that's got nothing to do with whether they exist or not. Any supermarket - bar none - will have those awful prepared pavlova cases on sale, if that's your thing. And any cookbook that glories in the epithet "Australian cuisine" that doesn't have a recipe for pavlova would be laughed out of existence. (Note, I said "Australian cuisine". I didn't claim it was invented in Australia; not that I am convinced it wasn't, but that's not a debate for here and now.)

And, by the way, whatever shortcomings we may be perceived by itinerants (hack, spit) to have in the food department, we can at least spell words like "trifle" and "brigade". Also, "pavlova" (the food) is spelled without a capital p. So there.  :) -- JackofOz (talk) 07:28, 20 February 2009 (UTC)

U.S. Federal Reserve current interest rate

Can someone please tell me what the U.S. Federal Reserve current interest rate is and where I would look in the future to find this out myself? Thank you. 173.68.245.32 (talk) 17:16, 18 February 2009 (UTC)

Perhaps here? --jpgordon^∇∆∇∆ 17:23, 18 February 2009 (UTC)

Business process mapping

Hi Everybody, I have been assigned the responsibility of mapping the business entity at one location and replicate it to other as one shuts down soon. Are there anyone who can guide me through with some information or any documentation to help me through it. i have searched the internet with(business process mapping) but no credible information yet..thanking you in advance. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.122.36.6 (talk) 17:18, 18 February 2009 (UTC)

I always enjoy process-related tasks. Here are some tips. I'm sure that others can add to them.

Firstly, it's most important that you know the process inside and out. Chances are, if you've been assigned this task, you'll be directly involved in the set-up of the new location. You need to seize this opportunity to make yourself the primary resource. Make sure you spend at least as much time investigating, learning about and generally "poking your nose around" the old site/department/entity as you do documenting it.

Get updated job descriptions of everyone involved. If you have a formal HR department that keeps job descriptions, run them by the employees and managers to make sure they reflect reality. If you don't, spend some time with the existing employees and make some notes on each position. Make sure the "responsibilities" and "tasks" are sorted in order of importance (to the department's goals).

Use Microsoft Visio (or a similar program) to map out reporting relationships. Are they purely hierarchical? Or is there some element of "matrix" reporting?

Also map out a flowchart of the "process" from the point of view of the customer (if retail/customer service) or product (if manufacturing/distribution). Exactly what steps does the customer/product/service go through from start to finish during the production process? Indicate the most important 'Quality Assurance' steps in this diagram in bold, and find out what is done to ensure that these steps are done well.

Weave these important QA steps into a culture or mission statement for the department. Identify them as "mission critical functions" and make sure that the new department respects them.

On the "mission critical" front, you should also list of all technologies, systems, tools, equipment etc. etc. that needs to be functioning to accomplish the department's goals. Document procedures for maintaining these mission critical systems, and the emergency workaround procedures, should any of them fail.

Interview employees (especially recently hired ones) and ask to think about the most important things that they learned in their first weeks/months on the job. Your goal is to document as many "Best Practices" as possible, making them available to the next location.

These are just a few disparate ideas. Maybe if you could give us an idea of what kind of business this is, we could think through a few more tips. NByz (talk) 21:24, 18 February 2009 (UTC)

Following EC (Haven't read what NByz said): This question is good for at least an entire year of business administration studies. My sympathies for being assigned a task that you don't seem to have specific background for. Start at something like Business analysis and Business process modeling. Then read yourself though the linked pages. Our business pages are pretty good for the most part. If you have a budget, you may wish to employ the assistance of your company's last auditor (The actual person, not just the company). Good ones get a pretty good insight into the workings of your company. If your company is ISO 9000 certified the documentation your company produced for that are another source. (OR: A lecturer at a conference once said that companies that had documentation and followed it fared better than those without. Those who had documentation and ignored it, however, were doing even better :-) Your IT department is another stop for information. They will know about what applications are used where and will probably also be aware of the flow of information. When duplicating your processes keep differences in mind. Cultural differences, social structure, knowledge bases, tacit knowledge and even such odd things as availability of daycare can influence the efficiency and productivity of your processes. Bob reporting to Bill will only work as well at your new site for Jack and James if they have as much respect for each other as the original pair. One chair labeled "engineer" can not be filled by any old "butt engineer". Conduct interviews with people at various levels of your company. Asking people what they like about what they do and how things work might give you more information than asking what their tasks are and how they are accomplishing them. If you don't have to be done yesterday, you might be able to recruit a couple of interns to lend you a hand. (Sorry folks, but look at the bright side. It beats spending a month doing the company's filing.) 76.97.245.5 (talk) 21:55, 18 February 2009 (UTC)

After reading NByz: agreed, pretty much in the same vein. Also try to identify non-apparent nodes like cafeteria staff, gate guards and maintenance personnel. There's a chance you get a clearer picture of what's going on from them than from the department heads. BTW bringing some cookies, donuts or the like to interviews can work wonders. (Never mind that we are all on a diet, just check that your interview partner isn't a diabetic) 76.97.245.5 (talk) 22:26, 18 February 2009 (UTC)

This is really great, thanks to all and to the question NByz , it is a home healthcare product sale and services.Thanks again hope to hear from you again.Well, for the other dude,i am diabetic..lol..thanks again —Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.122.36.6 (talk) 09:21, 19 February 2009 (UTC)

Going for a drink...

OK, so this is an advice-type question, which I realize is not really the preserve of these desks. However I've noticed they do tend to get answered sometimes, so here goes with another one. I'm one of several new hires at a company and we have been undergoing "onboarding" this past week. There is this one woman who is friendly and fun to talk to, and I've heard her say a few times that she wishes she could go out for a few drinks, but doesn't know anyone in the city. I am not new to the city and I would like to go out for a drink with her, show her around a bit and so on, just because I like going out and meeting new people. Important: I'm happily married and I have no wish or intention of hitting on her. (She knows I'm married, too.) But on the one or two occasions we've spoken, she's been a bit standoffish and distant with me, as though she's not really that bothered about getting to know me on a personal basis. Should I ask her out for that friendly drink, or take the hint and leave her alone? --Bluegrouper (talk) 17:36, 18 February 2009 (UTC)

If I were you, I'd arrange a drink with her and some of the other new hires. Then you can try and get to know her better in a less awkward environment that if it were just the two of you. (It also makes sure she doesn't misinterpret your invitation as something more than it is.) --Tango (talk) 17:42, 18 February 2009 (UTC)

Yah. And any question that starts, "Should I take the hint..." should be answered "Yes". --jpgordon^∇∆∇∆ 17:44, 18 February 2009 (UTC)

I don't know... that's assuming she knows what she wants - in my experience, women rarely do! --Tango (talk) 19:01, 18 February 2009 (UTC)

Mm. "No thanks" means "no thanks", especially in the workplace. --jpgordon^∇∆∇∆ 20:19, 18 February 2009 (UTC)

Sure, but it doesn't mean you can't ask again in a couple of weeks, perhaps taking a slightly different approach. Sooner or later, you have to give up, though. --Tango (talk) 21:11, 18 February 2009 (UTC)

The thing about this whole business between men and women—it's sexual. --Milkbreath (talk) 20:50, 18 February 2009 (UTC)

What whole business? I'm male and I have plenty of female friends that I go for drinks with and there is nothing at all sexual between us. --Tango (talk) 21:11, 18 February 2009 (UTC)

This is not a discussion forum, but I like to state the obvious, and that seems to provoke rejoinder. Sorry. Don't get your panties in a bunch. I didn't mean to conjure an orgiastic orgasmagoria in anyone's mind here, though whatever floats your boat. I think the best I can do at this point is deliver a quote from a movie that you might think stinks if you haven't seen it, and it does, but nowhere near as much as it had every right to, largely thanks to Pamela Reed, Kindergarten Cop, and sign off: "Boys have a penis. Girls have a vagina." --Milkbreath (talk) 22:28, 18 February 2009 (UTC)

Harry also had a point to make on this very subject: "Men and women can't be friends because the sex part always gets in the way". -- JackofOz (talk) 22:59, 18 February 2009 (UTC)

I've never subscribed to that philosophy. --Tango (talk) 00:00, 19 February 2009 (UTC)

Me either (but I wouldn't, would I). -- JackofOz (talk) 05:30, 19 February 2009 (UTC)

You could pass around a note/e-mail/message to all your colleagues about a "new hire get together" or an "after hours department outing" to see if someone else would like to go to the watering hole, too. That way it wouldn't be a one on one "thing". Even if it ends up just being the two of you it would more definitely be a casual business related social event than a personal invitation. If it goes well you can follow it up by fielding various invitations for things like the local bowling alley or karaoke spot. If she doesn't bite, but someone else wants to come you might still end up with a nice evening out. 76.97.245.5 (talk) 22:14, 18 February 2009 (UTC)

Invite her out for a drink with both you and your wife. She gets something to do and can get to know you with no ambiguity, and your wife can meet someone new as well. If there are excuses that are in the realm of "I have to wash my hair", you know you can back off and she'll settle in her own way. You will have made an effort and can continue life with a clean conscience in that respect. Steewi (talk) 00:51, 19 February 2009 (UTC)

That's a good idea, but you should get your wife's permission in any case. Otherwise, you could get into big trouble with her. StuRat (talk) 14:24, 19 February 2009 (UTC)

Some firm in the world is still hiring? Just make sure you don't do anything which could get you canned.Be sure and watch all episodes of The Office to avoid any missteps documented there. Edison (talk) 05:56, 21 February 2009 (UTC)

Springboks(Antidorcas marsupialis) in the UAE.

I have a friend working in Dubai and he recently send me photographs of several Springboks wandering around in the desert, near one of their building sites. It makes sence to me that there are several places in the world nowadays, they can be found, outside of Africa, but I have three questions: 1) Is the Springbok naturally endemic to just the Southern African region. 2) Does anybody know something about these Springboks near Dubai, and how they ended up there. 3) Would'nt the grazing in the desert be insufficient, for their colour is much lighter than the Springboks we know. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 155.239.134.122 (talk) 18:48, 18 February 2009 (UTC)

I think your friend mistook a Thomson's Gazelle for a Springbok (antelope). Thompson gazelles are indigenous to the Sudan and so it's a lot more likely that some have made it to Dubai. There might be a slight chance though that one of the local sheiks imported a couple of Springboks as an exotic novelty. 76.97.245.5 (talk) 20:57, 18 February 2009 (UTC)

Our article on antelopes indicates that two species of antelope indiginous to the arabian peninsula; the Arabian Oryx which does not look much like a springbok, except that both are obviously antelopes, and the Dorcas Gazelle which DOES appear to have a similar size and coloration to a springbok. The main difference I can pick out at first glance is in the shape of the horns, but this could easily be overlooked. --Jayron32.talk.contribs 05:46, 19 February 2009 (UTC)

Having recently returned from Al Ain I can say that you are clearly referring to gazelles, which are not springboks. Take a visit to the Al Ain Zoo sometime, it's fantastic. Avnas Ishtaroth _{drop me a line} 06:19, 19 February 2009 (UTC)

However boks, gazelles and oryx are all closely related groups of antelopes, so it is easy to confuse one for the other. --Jayron32.talk.contribs 06:24, 19 February 2009 (UTC)

Requesting an external link to a locked page

The "DTV transition in the United States" page is locked, and I want to request an external link. I found a site that offers a free, informative guide of the DTV transition and a coupon exchange program that connects people who have extra government coupons to those who need them. I myself participated in this program and found it really helpful (since the Dept. of Commerce ran out of money and now there's a huge waiting list for the DTV coupons). This is the link: <retrevo.com/dtv>. There are millions out there who still need to make the transition and its cool that there's a program that provides the opportunity for people to help one another in a simple yet significant manner.

Also, sorry if this question has already been asked/answered. I can't seem to find the solution... —Preceding unsigned comment added by American user (talk • contribs) 19:55, 18 February 2009 (UTC)

I believe the correct method here is to edit the article's talk page with the suggestion and seek consensus for the change. If the change is generally agreed upon, an {{editprotected}} tag can be used to draw the attention of someone with rights to modify the article. Also, the correct forum for help with Wikipedia is the Helpdesk. – 74  20:07, 18 February 2009 (UTC)

24: Redemption

Does anyone know of a specific website where I could watch a stream of the 24 redemption special? I've been looking all over the place and I can't find the full episode. Thanks a lot! Grango242 (talk) 21:04, 18 February 2009 (UTC)

hulu.com had it, but it may have been dropped. If memory serves they were only going to have 5 episodes at at time... 161.222.160.8 (talk) 23:26, 18 February 2009 (UTC)

Yeah thanks anyway, but I already checked on hulu. Actually, I already checked everywhere I coudld think of. If anyone else knows anywhere where it definetly is, I would appreeciate it. Thanks. Grango242 (talk) 00:20, 19 February 2009 (UTC)

I know it's not streaming, but Redemption is readily available on DVD, and now it's past its "new" release phase the price has come down a lot. Astronaut (talk) 14:52, 19 February 2009 (UTC)

iTunes (UK, at least) definitely has it. Not streaming, but it should only take a couple hours to download. Angus Lepper^{(T, C)} 21:38, 19 February 2009 (UTC)

Depending on the local laws where you live, this may or may not be legal, but here goes: [1]. Don't blame me if you get caught. :-P Ilikefood (talk) 22:43, 20 February 2009 (UTC)

Littering in Australia

What is the fine issued by the police for littering in australia? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Coolstuffthing (talk • contribs) 22:43, 18 February 2009 (UTC)

This article [2] says that the fine in Southern Australia is $315 but only 150 fines are handed down each year - so the law is essentially not enforced. The implication of that article is that the fines are less elsewhere in Australia. SteveBaker (talk) 23:50, 18 February 2009 (UTC)

Not sure about the fines but the social pressure not to litter is massive. I came from England where everyone happily throws their litter on the floor. Here in south australia it is immaculately clean. When I first arrived I dropped some litter and was immediately told by a passer-by that I was irresponsible. Nobody would dare tell you that in england for fear of getting a punch in the face. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 124.177.186.3 (talk) 09:12, 19 February 2009 (UTC)

I live in England and will happily ask people not to drop litter, without any fear of being punched in the face. I must admit you're right about Australia being more on the case though.91.111.91.7 (talk) 19:51, 19 February 2009 (UTC)

Your statement about England is inaccurate. While 'too many' people might drop litter in England, that is far from 'everybody'. Even in London (notoriously littered), a sizable minority of people - of whom I am one, do not drop litter. I also tell people off, as I can't tolerate seeing people drop litter on the ground when there is a bin in plain site five steps away. I do agree that speaking up is risky, however. I was once in the passenger seat of a car in stopped traffic, and the passenger in the car ahead of me dropped the complete remains of their junk food meal packaging out of the window. For some reason I saw read, jumped out of the car, picked up the waste, and pushed it all back in the open window, saying 'I think you forgot this'. Nothing happened except I got cursed a lot, and by the time I got back to my car, all the stuff was back on the pavement again. I was able to risk this because a trusted friend was driving my car, and he would have backed me up if something had kicked off. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.4.184.157 (talk) 15:14, 20 February 2009 (UTC)