Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Miscellaneous/2008 November 13

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November 13

Can you help me find the original projections of social networking sites such as Facebook and Myspace

--Bustenai (talk) 01:24, 13 November 2008 (UTC)I am seeking the original projections of social networking sites - Facebook and Myspace are quintessential examples. The original business plans would show usage projections (how many eyeballs per month for the first year)and how they expected to monetize that audience. I am crafting my business plan for a unique site and need respectable numbers for the business community.Is is possible to locate the first or early businessplans of the companies mentioned or perhaps others? My one day owning my own island is in your hands.Bustenai (talk) 01:24, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

In many cases, they didn't start out with the intent of being businesses. Facebook was originally a guy who wanted to organize his college year-book photos online - then the software was used by more colleges, high schools - and eventually, it got to be such a drain on his servers that he had to sell advertising to pay for it. THEN it was a business. This is not uncommon. I remember the first day the Google engine came online - there was ZERO advertising - it was a free service provided by people researching into search engines - only later did they "incidentally" decide to make money out of it. Ditto Craigslist...ditto loads of others. It's mostly geeks doing things for fun and for free that are slowly forced into becoming businesses. I doubt that any of those 'big name' services ever had a business plan until they were already making money. It's interesting to note that Wikipedia started the same way - but never did go the route of switching over to a business model. SteveBaker (talk) 14:12, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

And even if those sites did produce business plans, they're not going to make them publicly available. Such figures are invariably commercially sensitive. Also, you shouldn't be looking at those figures anyway. If you're serious about producing a robust business plan, you should be able to make your own projections without referring to any that have gone before. --Richardrj ^{talk email} 14:22, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

The first such site up was CampusNetwork at Columbia College of Columbia University. Might check that article or contact the founders of the now-defunct social networking site. Edison (talk) 20:06, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

Even if you could find such numbers, they may not be very useful. The reason such sites work is because they are somehow different from everything that has gone before. For your site to work, it also needs to be different, which means it may not be comparable to the existing sites. --Tango (talk) 21:09, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

Chinese FDA

Is there a Chinese equivalent to the Food And Drugs Administration? Is there any Chinese group that performs a similar role? My focus is on the food aspect. 63.229.215.199 (talk) 02:15, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

They have a quality watchdog, if that helps. --Tagishsimon (talk) 02:16, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

Probably the General Administration of Quality Supervision, Inspection and Quarantine. CambridgeBayWeather Have a gorilla 05:38, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

And judging by the recent scandals, almost as effective as the FDA. Clarityfiend (talk) 06:27, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

But the consequences have been much more dire. [[1]] The administrator was executed last year. NByz (talk) 19:05, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

importing

This might seem like a dumb question, but why do we get products imported from China and other countries rather then manufacturing them in our own countries? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Vagamber (talk • contribs) 07:31, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

• Sometimes it's cheaper to import it than to make it here. After all, imported products need to be transported only once. If you made something yourself you probably need to important the stuff it's made off and then pay for all the man hours to get it produced. - 131.211.151.245 (talk) 07:46, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

The biggest reason is the cost of labour. People in China generally have significantly lower wages than people in western Europe or the US. Think of it like this: say you want to make like, 50000 pencils. You could either pay a king's ransom to have it done where you live, or you can just hire a bunch of people in China, pay them a lot less, and ship them over really cheaply (the cost of transportation is much lower than the increase in cost to pay higher salaries). Belisarius (talk) 08:37, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

Check out List of minimum wages by country - many factory workers are earning exactly that. It doesn't have a figure for China - but I found elsewhere that the average Chinese factory worker pulls in $2,520 per year. In the USA, the minimum you can pay anyone in the USA works out to $12,168 per year. So if the cost of shipping the product of one person's labor for a year is less than around $10,000 - it's cheaper to get the work done in China. [2] says that you can ship two 40' containers from China to the USA for $10,000.

So let's take a concrete example - the one everyone always talks about - sneakers. How many pairs of Nike's can you fit into two 40' shipping containers? A pair of shoes is maybe a 9" by 4" inches by 4" inches - and a 40' shipping container is 40'x8'x8' - so you can ship 2x40x8x8x12 = 62,000 pairs of shoes from China for $10,000 - the savings you make in wages from one worker over a year. The cost of shipping a pair of shoes from China to the USA is therefore around 16 cents...not really very much. I read some amazingly turgid papers on the net and the best I could estimate was that a typical US shoe worker turned out 107 shoes per hour in 1986. So around 50 pairs an hour. If they are working 1600 hours a year (I believe that's the average with sick days, vacations and holidays) - then each worker makes 80,000 pairs a year for $12,000 in the USA or $2,500 in China - that's 15 cents a pair in the US and 2.6 cents a pair in China. But the shoes cost 16 cents to ship - so it looks like you save 3.6 cents a shoe by doing the work in the USA. But that's not all - there are other factors at work here. Overseas, land is cheaper, taxes are lower, employer healthcare payments are not required, workers have to put in longer hours and the environmental laws are not so strict - overheads for managment, HR, etc are also lower. All of those factors shave more pennies off the cost of shoes.

This also assumes you could pursuade people to work in a shoe factory for minimum wage in the USA - I think that's a tough sell. www.payscale.com says that an average production line factory worker earns $15 per hour - which is 30 cents per pair of shoes - not 15 cents as a minimum wage worker would cost.

Some people will argue that people would "buy American" if shoes were (say) 50 cents or even a dollar more expensive than the Chinese-made version - but that's simply not the way people behave. They go to WalMart - which relentlessly pushes down on price - and doesn't show you anywhere in the shoe aisles where each shoe was manufactured. Hence, if there are two almost identical pairs of sneaker, people will go for the cheapest one - and WalMart won't waste shelf space stocking the "all American" one. So that's not going to work.

The solution for the US is to keep production in high-tech areas where labor costs are a tiny fraction of the cost of the product and the benefits of keeping the technology local outweigh the tiny price difference. But every high-tech product gradually gets understood well enough to be made overseas - so in order to maintain high wages, US workers have to push the technology envelope all the time. That means better education - more mid-life retraining - companies who spend BIG money in R&D. People should not expect to earn $15 per hour when their education is no better than someone in China who makes only $1 per hour. The US can't make money making shoes...or even computers or cars...the work needs to be in biotechnology, nanotechnology, advanced design services that the 2nd and 3rd world countries will pay money to use. Then, in 20 years - it'll have to be in orbital power stations or delivering helium from the moon - and in 20 years after that...I don't know - but it had better be something else because India will be able to do those things at a tenth the price the US can!

Sadly, the state of education here is utterly lamentable...and it's getting worse. Let's teach creationism instead of evolution...yeah - that's REALLY going to make a biotechnology industry that's a world-beater. Let's have all of the workers pray for god to make them a new bacterium that can convert grass into ethanol for us...that'll work.

SteveBaker (talk) 14:00, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

See especially comparative advantage. - Jmabel | Talk 17:54, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

The cool thing about Comparative advantage, is that even if a country is absolutely more efficient at producing ALL goods, they still maximize their utility (fancy word for happiness or usefulness) by producing more of the item that they are relatively most efficient at producing and trading for the other(s).NByz (talk) 19:02, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

The only quibble I have with Steve's wonderful explanation is that I think 9" x 4" x 4" is a better size for a shoe rather than a pair of shoes. I suppose it would also depend on whether the shoes are boxed overseas or shipped in bulk (I believe it's the latter). Matt Deres (talk) 21:01, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

I have heard it said (although there is some debate about the truth of the statement) that the major sneaker companies ship left shoes and right shoes in separate containers so that organized crime cannot benefit by hijacking container trucks. That being the case - pairs of shoes can't be shipped in their boxes - so they must be being re-united and boxed somewhere more locally. But I'm not going to argue about the size of a pair of sneakers...the point remains that a $10,000 per year difference in worker salary (or more like $22,000 difference per average employee) pays for an awful lot of shipping. If you're a factory worker and the amount of 'stuff' you personally produce in a year would fit into four 40' shipping containers - then you'd better start worrying. Add in the other savings with overseas manufacturing and it's truly no contest. If Americans want to make their living making things like shoes - they need to get the minimum wage laws repealed and downsize their living standards accordingly - that's not going to happen - so plan on those businesses dying. SteveBaker (talk) 03:19, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

Not all shoe manufacturing is in the country that can provide it cheapest/best value, there are some specialist shoe manufacturers in the US. Additionally moving your work 'off-shore' to the cheapest production countries is not without risk. Many companies that consider that risk too high (regardless of the cheaper labour costs, lower regulatory requirements). There are also infrastructure costs which can often put-off companies moving off-shore. Having a handful of custom-built mulit-million dollar machines in the US and trying sourcing/building replacements in another country requires a notable strategic input - in investing in off-shore they need to be confident that the medium-to-long term benefits of offshoring outweigh the short-term investment costs. Of course plenty of companies don't have this 'specialisation' issue and can simply contract-out there work, which makes moving work around much easier. In essence whilst the lure of lower production costs is a big one, there are also many reasons why companies retain production 'on-shore'. Without delving deeping into these moving manufacturing must consider: Strategic reduction in staff, Impact on PR in local (and potentially wider) community because of moving production, training of staff, stability of production/off-shore economy, financial implications of offshore (budget, auditing, reporting etc.), moving of control to less 'instantly' accessible area, quality of staff available, historic corporate philosophy, security of production/trade-secrets off-shore etc. etc. Often it will be worth it, but it isn't a case of just saying "It costs $1 per unit to make it in the US and 10 cents in China, move it" there's more to it. 194.221.133.226 (talk) 09:18, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

Austrians and Marxists

Were the economists of the Austrian school really the first to critically engage significantly with Marxist economics? [no wiki articles needed, thx] the skomorokh 09:58, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

If you don't want Wikipedia articles,then I don't see how we can help you,unless you're expecting us to answer what sounds like a homework question for you,in which case we would all want a share of our grade.We can certainly point you in the direction of articles that will help you,but we don't do your homework for you. Also if you want to sign your name just type four tildes-these things ~ and it will do it for you. Lemon martini (talk) 11:42, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

Lemon martini—Skomorokh is a serious user who has made a number of edits to Austrian school. And he signed his question. I think he's saying that he already knows what the Wikipedia articles in question say and is looking for some input from the desk. Darkspots (talk) 12:47, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

Yep, Darkspots has it exactly right. The question refers to an unsourced claim in the article that sounds like it could be true but that I have been unable to verify myself. I should have made that clearer. Thank you both for your interest in helping. Regards, the skomorokh 17:10, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

This won't be much help but: could be. As far as I know, earlier classical economists mostly didn't take Marx seriously enough to bother engaging. - Jmabel | Talk 17:57, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

If you read German I suggest this [3] reference, a treatise of Eugen von Böhm-Bawerk who was a major figure of the Vienna School. Chapter 4 would seem to be relevant. An English version is linked to at the bottom (1st of the external links) of the WP article on him. --Cookatoo.ergo.ZooM (talk) 18:13, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

Aye, I'm familiar with the piece, but I can't exactly cite a prominent first wave Austrian's engagement with Marxism as an RS for the claim that the Austrians were the first in the door. Thanks for the link, I appreciate it. the skomorokh 18:20, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

That is of interest and lends credibility to the claim, thanks Joe. the skomorokh 18:20, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

Belgium/paedophiles

Does Belgium actually have more child abuse/paedophiles than other European countries? If not, how did this myth develop? If it does, have there been any postulated explanations for it? It's a bit of a weird question, but thanks in advance for any answers. 86.7.238.145 (talk) 11:10, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

These kinds of question are tricky. If you find a statistic about the number of convicted Belgian paedophiles and it seems like a big number - that might be just that they are better at catching and prosecuting them than other comparable societies. If you find a statistic that says that more of these crimes are reported than elsewhere - then that may simply mean that Belgian society is uniquely open about that kind of thing with little of the shame that so often prevents the victims from coming forwards to report problems. Doubtless we could come up with some statistics - but in such a sensitive matter, I doubt we could infer much about actual abuse in Belgium as a result. However, that's not to say that we couldn't come up with some numbers for you - I'm sure someone here will be able to do that. SteveBaker (talk) 12:51, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

As far as I'm aware, the stereotype is very recent, having it's roots in the Marc Dutroux case. During the trial, there was a conspiracy theory that suspects had been protected by a shadowy group of top government officials. A "paedocracy" if you will. I don't recall hearing anything about Belgians and paedophilia before that. Fribbler (talk) 12:56, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

Probably not. Across any large group of people, there is likely to be the same percentage of people with any random trait, positive or negative, as there are in any other random group of people. As noted, there may be aspects of Belgian society that cause more pedophiles to get caught and prosecuted, but it doesn't mean that there are more in that society. --Jayron32.talk.contribs 13:05, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

That's a dubious assumption. If we are to assume that (Belgian) society can be the reason for more people being caught/more reporting, what is to stop there being societies where X is more prevelent? Nature is impacted by 'nurture', and characterstics such as culture and society will impact the likelihood of X or Y occuring. I can't see why paedophillia would be exempt from cultural impacts (I'm not suggesting this is the case for Belgium). 194.221.133.226 (talk) 16:17, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

In the original question, child abusers and paedophiles are mixed, but these categories are not synonymous. Not all child abusers are paedophiles, and not all paedophiles are child abusers. I would guess that just like Jayron32 said, that there is likely to be the same percentage of people who are paedophiles. However, the amount of people who abuse children is greatly different between societies, due to factors such as how well the society protects its children, what the society defines as "child abuse" etc. So it is not all impossible that there are certain factors in Belgian society that lead to an increase of sexual child abuse. Lova Falk (talk) 14:00, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

I disagree. If peadophilia or child abuse are driven by cultural factors as well (I believe they are) then we shouldn't expect their likelihood to be the same in different cultures. Zain Ebrahim (talk) 07:00, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

Wouldn't a paedocracy be a country run by children? Sounds like a far more effective method of rule than a country run by paedophiles! --Tango (talk) 20:50, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

Some people might say some countries are run by... *sigh*. Julia Rossi (talk) 07:19, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

girls

how can i get girls to undo their skool blouses so i can see there bras and boobs? wen i try it, they ether hit me or if theyre my frends just giggle and run off? i even tried doing it like truth or dare but they wouldnt do it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.111.185.226 (talk) 11:26, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

I don't believe our article on sexual harassment has a how-to section, but you might find the other info useful. AlmostReadytoFly (talk) 12:06, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

It can't be any worse than our uni anti-harassment video which was set in a cheesy 80s office and consisted mainly of some guy stuffing a shuttlecock down his pants.It was so bad it was laughable.Maybe having the faculty in hysterics and deciding the video was brilliant wasn't the message they wanted to convey... Lemon martini (talk) 12:37, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

Oh egads!We really do need some sort of trapdoor on the way in here which removes the lesser species,but nevertheless...I'm assuming from your spelling abilities you're still at school.If you're really good friends with some of the girls,you may find if you sit down and talk to them when they're in a good mood,they may very well consider your request.When they are asking what you want for Christmas or birthday presents,you could drop some hints that a few undone buttons would be well appreciated.If all that fails,try becoming a naturist.You will find quite a few females who have no objections to you seeing their body unclothed.If you get arrested,Wikipedia will not post bail for you... Lemon martini (talk) 12:17, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

This is evolution in action. Nature: red in tooth and claw. The terminally lame demand that girls undo their blouses. As a direct consequence they totally fail to 'get off' with them. Zero chance of sex ensures that their genes do not survive into the succeeding generation. Problem solved. Trust Darwin, he knew his stuff. SteveBaker (talk) 12:45, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

My understanding is that this sort of approach actually gets results some of the time when attempted by beautiful, charismatic guys—in no way disproving Darwin. The rest of us have to behave less like assholes if we want the chance to reproduce. Darkspots (talk) 12:52, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

I've heard anecdotal evidence of the approach working via sympathy as well - remember, looking at a girl's breasts is very unlikely to impregnate her! --Tango (talk) 20:52, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

I know its going to come as a shock to the OP, but girls are human beings too! They are complex and have desires and aspirations and life goals no less complex than guys. You could try establishing a real relationship with them! You know, like care about them in ways that don't involve sex right away! Well, plus there's the issue that breasts aren't "where its at" for the discerning connoisoir. Sure, they are wonderful accessories, but the real action happens elsewhere. But then, if you actually cared about the pleasure of your partner, you would learn how to please her. But then again, that would require you to get to know girls, and care about them in more ways than just as sexual objects. Which returns us to the original point. --Jayron32.talk.contribs 13:03, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

You're a real downer, you know :) You're right, but a real downer... Belisarius (talk) 17:03, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

Ok, let's try a more helpful response: Being interested in seeing what breasts look like is a natural part of puberty, however most of the girls you associate with will probably be rather shy about showing you them because it goes against cultural norms (there are cultures where nudity is perfectly normal, ours just isn't one of them). The easiest breasts for you to see would probably be those of glamour models, try buying a newspaper or magazine which includes glamour photographs (in the UK, The Sun's page 3 is a well known example and you could even claim you were buying for the articles!). If buying such material at your age is illegal where you live, then, of course, I do not recommend or condone violating the law. --Tango (talk) 20:58, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

Of course, glamour mags may only be helpful if you enjoy ogling bags of salt water. FiggyBee (talk) 03:15, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

Plenty of glamour mags are natural only, as is Page 3. --Tango (talk) 10:31, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

I reccommend the badcop-goodcop routine: insult her, then complement her. Works every time*. Example - "That lipstick makes you look like you should wear a red nose and juggle for a living. But look on the bright side: your [boobies or other body part] make you look great, even though you look like you put a baby in a blender and wiped it on your lips." * = results may vary flaminglawyer^cneverforget 03:07, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

Your post reads like something from Beavis and Butthead – highly unsuccessful girl-impressors. I guess you'll find a solution (in your library, books on drawing have naked models in them) or in your dreams, but most real girls have boundaries (no-go zones) as to the limits of socially acceptable behaviour. Julia Rossi (talk) 07:26, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

Strip poker was popular when I was in school. As, at an earlier age, were lingerie catalogues. This video also contains useful information. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Maltelauridsbrigge (talk • contribs) 12:56, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

Tea Tree Oil

This question has been removed. Per the reference desk guidelines, the reference desk is not an appropriate place to request medical, legal or other professional advice, including any kind of medical diagnosis or prognosis, or treatment recommendations. For such advice, please see a qualified professional. --Darkspots (talk) 13:23, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

Such as your pharmacist. Julia Rossi (talk) 07:30, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

Casual Lofa

Does anyone know where i can find information on the Casual Lofa and other similar contraptions? It is famous as being previously the world's fastest sofa. Simply south (talk) 16:25, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

"World's fastest sofa"??? Like, in the couch races on the Bonneville wall-to-wall carpet flats?

(We used to have adult soap box derby races in Seattle, until they got stopped for insurance reasons. One person did put an entire couch on his racer). - Jmabel | Talk 18:00, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

Google returned over 6000 results, that should be a good start. --LarryMac | Talk 18:29, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

Google seemed to work for me. The sofa in question is pretty damn cool. ~ mazca ^t|c 18:33, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

Found it was by Edd China and also found www.cummfybanana.com which unfortunately at the mo currently undergoing refurbishment. (Wow, bathtub and office). Thank you. Simply south (talk) 18:46, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

This UK paper [4] has a lengthy article on the 220 HP Rover V8 mobile sofa. Googling is a bit tricky, as you get results on Amish handcrafted organic furniture. I suspect that these are not motorised but have 220 donkeys built into the upholstery :o) --Cookatoo.ergo.ZooM (talk) 19:03, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

Are Assumptions important

i am really annoyed time and again to hear from my managers, please stop assuming as our work largely depends ont he customer behaviour, so i sincerely thing assumptions plays a major role and however, we cannot rule out the importance of assumption , can any one help me explain the importance of assumption to my managers.Vikram79 (talk) 18:30, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

In economics, assumptions are important to theories because they let you simplify the world. In this way, ideas formed with assumptions usually only reflect one aspect of the situation being studied. To get a full view, you'd need many theories with many assumptions.

For example: A good theory might be that output per worker is a function of worker effort. An assumption of this theory might be that customer behaviour is an independent variable. Using this theory to predict output might work really well.

Another theory is that output per worker is a function of the rate of growth of the industry (more demand = more output). An assumption here, is that worker effort is independent (they won't harder in the "good" or "bad" states of the world). This theory may predict output even better than the first one. Or it may not. Both are valid theories. NByz (talk) 18:56, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

Thanks NByz at leat i have some perspective to go ahead with Vikram79 (talk) 19:02, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

What your managers may be trying to do is get you to question your assumptions. Are you assuming your customers are a certain kind of people? Maybe they are not. Are you assuming that sales will grow? Maybe they won't. Are you sure that the things you are assuming are correct? Can you show that they are? While some assumptions are usually necessary, it may be that you are assuming more than your managers want. Contrary to what some popular comics would have you believe, managers are often smart people. DJ Clayworth (talk) 21:53, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

Christians think assumptions are VERY important - after all - we are told that Jesus Christ's mother Mary was assumed into heaven.92.22.212.56 (talk) 16:58, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

is OCD curable

I have friend who has serious obsessive cleanliness disorder, he even wash his hand if you give him a pen or shake hand with him. any ways i can help him rid this? or is this OCD at all.?Vikram79 (talk) 18:56, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

The best we can do is refer you to obsessive compulsive disorder, however we cannot give medical advice here. If you are concerned for your friend, encourage him to see a physician who specializes in treating patients like him. --Jayron32.talk.contribs 19:40, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

The easiest way to find a specialist would probably be to go and see his General Practitioner (or whatever the equivalent is where you live) and get referred. (At least, that's how you would do it in the UK.) --Tango (talk) 20:44, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

Another issue would be: who is looking for a cure here? Does your friend suffer because of his compulsion? Does it keep him from doing things he would like to do? or Is it you who feels uncomfortable because he's not "normal", doesn't suit your standards? In the latter case I'd take a long hard look in the mirror asking what is so threatening or disturbing about s.o. who's different? Remember that humans would never have made it out of the cave were it not for the occasional odd one out. Who knows, in a huge epidemic your friend might just be the last one standing ;-) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.97.245.5 (talk) 13:02, 14 November 2008 (UTC) oops76.97.245.5 (talk) (one day I'm going to kill this bot=:(

Who will fill vacated seats?

Who will fill Obama and Biden's vacated Senate seats? Bikingshaun (talk) 19:54, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

The governors of their states will appoint replacements. The names have not yet been announced. Edison (talk) 20:01, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

What if the sitting governor was not of the same political party? Is there a requirment to fill the position with someone of the same political affiliation? Bikingshaun (talk) 20:31, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

I think it depends on the state, some have laws requiring the replacement to be from the same party. I think the others at least have conventions to do so. --Tango (talk) 20:45, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

There is no national rule to handle such a situation. This topic has been covered extensively in the archives over the past few weeks, but to summarize, each state is left to its own devises as to how it will fill the vacant seats. In some states, the governor appoints a replacement, in others they are elected by the state legislature, and in still others a by election is held. In states where the replacement is appointed, some require it to be from the same party, and some do not. In some cases, the sppointed replacement is only approved to serve until the next statewide election day, and in others they serve until the end of the prior senator's term. If you can come up with a scenario, there is likely a state that does that to replace its senators or representatives. --Jayron32.talk.contribs 20:50, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

Just by the by, as it were, we don't have "by elections". We have "special elections". --Trovatore (talk) 22:21, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

To-may-toe, to-mah-toe/po-tay-toe, po-tah-toe... --Jayron32.talk.contribs 04:04, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

It just sounds really odd, when you're discussing an American election. Next you'll be telling me that, as you drove to the by-election, you stopped in at the petrol station, put air in your tyres, and re-read the campaign materials you were keeping in the boot. --Trovatore (talk) 06:08, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

Special election. Click it. Really. Oh look, it redirects... Damn... --Jayron32.talk.contribs 13:08, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

Yep. And petrol redirects to gasoline. I really think "by-election" is unidiomatic in American English, unless discussing elections held abroad. --Trovatore (talk) 21:09, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

Maybe so, but the article is not just about what happens in America. "Special election" could mean a number of things; but in this context it falls under what is known internationally as a by-election. -- JackofOz (talk) 07:54, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

I wasn't complaining about the article -- this is a standard WP:ENGVAR thing. When a topic does not have strong national ties, you use the variety of English in which it was first written. (I do have some reservations about your use of the phrase known internationally -- some Commonwealth speakers are under the impression that Commonwealth English is "international" English, and this is not accurate.)

My point to Jayron was that he was describing an American election, and the term sounds strange in that context, especially since Jayron himself is apparently an American. If it were a Commonwealth speaker talking I would be more tolerant. --Trovatore (talk) 08:31, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

Tolerance is a wonderful quality, Trovatore. There's always room for more tolerance. (Except for certain things up with which I will not put). :) -- JackofOz (talk) 22:03, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

Here is a discussion of the issue: [5]. In Illinois, the governor may appoint an interim replacement, but must also hold a by election within 180 days if there is not already a regularly schediled election within that time. The date of the election must be announced within 5 days of the vacancy occuring, which means that Governor Blagojevich must announce an election date to fill the position by January 25, 2009. In Delaware, the Governor is given complete control to appoint a full-time replacement, though its an uncertain situation since Delaware will swear in a new governor the same day that the U.S. swears in a new President and Vice President, it is uncertain how the replacement will be appointed. If Biden resigns before being sworn in (which he may do) then the responsibility will fall to the current governor. If Biden resigns the day he becomes Veep, then the responsibility will fall to the governor-elect... --Jayron32.talk.contribs 20:58, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

If anybody watches DirecTV........

Could someone please explain the sudden change in the XM channel lineup? All of a sudden Ethel is now Alternative Nation, Lucy is Lithium, Hip-Hop nation replaces the City, Octane replaces Squizz, Chrome has been removed from the lineup among other channels being removed........Does that mean that the stations change content? And why did they remove some channels? --Crackthewhip775 (talk) 21:18, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

See Xm_sirius_merger. As of November 12, 2008 Sirius and XM radio stations merged content. The new stations you are seeing are the Sirius stations that fit the same genre. Bikingshaun (talk) 21:26, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

As was said, Sirius and XM merged their music channels. Here is XM's press release, and here is the new channel lineup.--Zerozal (talk) 14:49, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

Hyla

When I visited the combined Fashion+Beauty & Health+Wellbeing fair at the Helsinki Fair Centre, after I had finished my main purpose for attending the whole fair in the first place, taking pictures of the models in the Finnish body painting championship at the Fashion+Beauty part, I wandered about the fair and found an interesting display at the Health+Wellbeing part. It was a new air filtering and room cleaning system called Hyla. The presenters offered me a home demonstration, so I signed up for one. The home demonstration was at my apartment this Tuesday, and I must say the salesperson won me over with her demonstration. But when she showed me the price, my feeling changed completely. I am very wary of paying over 1600 € for an air filtering and room cleaning system, no matter how brilliant it is. So I have to ask here, has anyone else had any experience with this Hyla system? Does it work as well as advertised? Is it worth paying so much for it? JIP | Talk 21:33, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

I know nothing of Hyla, but I think you may have found yourself in kirbyland. --Tagishsimon (talk) 21:40, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

Hyla does not use vacuum bags, it uses water. The water binds the vacuumed dust more efficiently and avoids the system getting clogged up by dust, and in addition, helps to moisten the air, which is good for people with allergies. The salesperson demonstrated this very well, and she also (very cleverly, I think) had me fill up and empty the water myself instead of doing it herself. This makes me convinced this Hyla system actually works, but not convinced it works well enough to justify the price. It's all a very nice system that actually works, but is it really any better than a plain old vacuum cleaner? JIP | Talk 21:52, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

I expect a HEPA vacuum cleaner is better than the Hyla system, and I'd be concerned about two things with the Hyla: 1) How fast does it dry out after use? Water + dirt + time = mildew. 2) How does it handle larger particles (food crumbs, dead ants, small toys)? --Carnildo (talk) 00:24, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

Haven't tried one either. Sounds expensive. At that price I'd look into other options like a central vacuum system or a vacuum robot that empties itself. In both cases you would minimize your exposure to dust. 76.97.245.5 (talk) 01:17, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

Water, eh? You may have found yourself in RainbowLand. That article is a stub, but from what I know, those are very expensive vacuums. I did notice that "rainbow vacuum scam" was a suggested search phrase when I started googling. Make of that what you will....--LarryMac | Talk 01:40, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

It's easy to get overwhelmed by an impressive demo. But ask yourself this: Before you ever heard of this system - were you in such a desperate state of dissatisfaction with your vacuum cleaner that you were looking to spend 1600 euro to fix the situation? I suspect not - I suspect you never really gave the problem a moment's thought. So why now? It doesn't matter whether it works or not - what matters is whether you NEED it. Yeah - so it humidifies the air...if your air is too dry - buy a $20 humidifier. If your air ISN'T too dry (and you didn't rush out and buy a humidifier - so I presume it wasn't) then something that FORCES you to pump humidity into the air whenever you clean the carpet is a terrible idea. Excess humidity promotes mold and dust-mites...the very things you'd hope your vacuum cleaner would help to eliminate. So no...I don't think you need it...if you have 1600 euro's to burn - find your biggest debt (car loan? house loan?) and pay it down. If you have no debts - the stock market is amazingly low now. Hint: "buy low...sell high". SteveBaker (talk) 02:56, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

These things are impressive, but as above, hardly necessary unless you're desperately trying to find new ways to empty your ever-filling pockets. Try the article luxury good, followed by Veblen good and commodity fetishism. Do these people live longer or spend faster with these goods? Julia Rossi (talk) 07:47, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

Everybody has missed the most important part of this, "...taking pictures of the models in the Finnish body painting championship at the Fashion+Beauty part..." JIP, where are the pictures? CambridgeBayWeather Have a gorilla 14:03, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

I recall some years ago having a Kirby Cleaner demo in my home (I have just read the article link mentioned above). The salesman did ALL the tricks written therein but also, he asked if he could demonstrate his cleaner on one of the children's beds. He showed us the piles of "dead skin cells and hair" he extracted which we thought amazing (but we don't as a matter of course normally vacuum our beds - hmmm, maybe we should). I digress. We were still reluctant to spend such a vast sum on what is essentially a vacuum cleaner - SO - he pulled an A4 photograph out of his briefcase which depicted the most horrendous, monstrous, elephantine, multi-tusked creature, with horns and a scaly, slimy body armour, and announced that this was an enlargement of the microscopic bedbugs that we were forcing our children to sleep on and how could we possibly be so cruel etc., etc. Needless to say, we ejected him and his cleaner from the house but we could not, under any circumstances, stop our 7 year-old daughter from screaming when bedtime came. In the end, we had to buy a new mattress, but even that was a fraction of the price of the Kirby Cleaner. 92.22.212.56 (talk) 16:52, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

Heh, I had that demo too. It worked on me, though. I used our Kirby to paint my fence and give my family massages, among other things. -- JackofOz (talk) 20:55, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

That's exactly what the salesperson showed me too. It was very convincing, but not convincing enough for me to purchase a 1600 € cleaning system. JIP | Talk 23:05, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

@CambridgeBayWeather, maybe we nicely side-stepped it because of the ins and outs of who owns copyright of the artwork, can they be reproduced blah blah etc etc... Still it's worth another question. Julia Rossi (talk) 22:25, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

Well, I am acquintated with two of the artists, and could probably ask them if they are OK with me publishing pictures of their models. Unfortunately I don't know any of the other artists. JIP | Talk 23:02, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

Does HR and BP drop while sleeping

For the average human, does the heart rate and blood pressure drop while one is asleep? Acceptable (talk) 23:21, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

Heart rate drops[6] during sleep. Blood pressure falls on average 20%[7], though the first article says bp rises during REM sleep.--Maltelauridsbrigge (talk) 13:06, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

That all depends on who what I'm dreaming about. :-) StuRat (talk) 04:59, 15 November 2008 (UTC)