Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2020 October 19

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October 19

Subsequent married name

A bit like née, but appellate to the maiden name rather than the married one; is there a term for this? So instead of Mrs Jones née Smith, how would one write Miss Smith [later] Jones? 2A02:C7F:BE04:700:B0C3:F665:5C5F:684C (talk) 14:32, 19 October 2020 (UTC)

What is wrong with "Miss Smith [later] Jones"? --Jayron32 15:23, 19 October 2020 (UTC)

I didn't say there was anything 'wrong' with it; I asked if anyone knew of a particular term in its place. Similarly to how we tend not to say 'Smith [previously] Jones' because we have word we use instead... Cheers! 2A02:C7F:BE04:700:B0C3:F665:5C5F:684C (talk) --Preceding undated comment added 15:47, 19 October 2020 (UTC)

Since née is taken from French, let it be known that in French you would say "Madame Smith, épouse Jones" (Mrs Smith, married to Jones), which would be equivalent to "Madame Jones, née Smith". The better known of the two surnames would be the one used first. Both "née" and "épouse" are pretty dated in this usage now, but you used to see this written on visiting cards and the like. Xuxl (talk) 17:12, 19 October 2020 (UTC)

Thanks Xuxl, that's probably what I'm after. And thank god for the lone voice of sanity on a refdesk!  :) best of luck to you and thanks! 2A02:C7F:BE04:700:B0C3:F665:5C5F:684C (talk) 17:27, 19 October 2020 (UTC)

"Miss Smith, now/later Mrs Jones"? --Error (talk) 17:21, 19 October 2020 (UTC)

One thing wrong with it is that it ought to be possible to omit the matter in brackets without damage to syntax. "Miss Smith [later] Jones" ought to mean the same as "Miss Smith Jones". (I'd understand the insertion as a poor attempt to indicate that she later changed her name from Jones to Smith Jones.) "Miss Smith (later Mrs Jones)" would be correct. —Tamfang (talk) 03:38, 21 October 2020 (UTC)

As French, unlike English, gender-specifies words made of verbs (I forget the exact name for the construction), example: née means "born, a female" but né means "born, a male" (although they are pronounced pretty much identically), what is the male version of épouse? Épous? JIP | Talk 23:07, 19 October 2020 (UTC)

The word you forgot is probably participle. —Tamfang (talk) 03:38, 21 October 2020 (UTC)

"Époux"... AnonMoos (talk) 00:19, 20 October 2020 (UTC)

Back in the days of the old blue passports (when every heading had a French translation) the translation for "wife" was épousse. Someone pointed out there was no such word. 212.159.12.93 (talk) 11:02, 20 October 2020 (UTC)

And did anything result from that observation? —Tamfang (talk) 03:38, 21 October 2020 (UTC)

"Épouse" (one s) is used. "Mme X, épouse Y". 90.43.41.82 (talk) 15:22, 24 October 2020 (UTC)

My French is very rusty, but I recall that there is Mlle (Madamoiselle), meaning "Miss" and Madame meaning "Mrs" (and presumably a mature unmarried lady as well). So wouldn't the English translation of Madame Smith, épouse Jones be "Miss Smith, married to Jones"? 212.159.12.93 (talk) 11:12, 20 October 2020 (UTC)

No, that would be if you wanted to say "The former Miss Smith, married to Jones". In the usage described, the lady in question is married, so is called Mrs. and "Smith married to Jones", taken as a whole, is treated like a compound last name. Xuxl (talk) 13:27, 20 October 2020 (UTC)

PDM

What does PDM stand for here ("2 PDMs... were destroyed")? Our PDM suggest it could be PDM-A, a modernized version of RPO-A Shmel, but this looks highly unlikely to me. Neither did Google clarify this for me in the military context, unless it's a typo in the source. Brandmeister^talk 21:32, 19 October 2020 (UTC)

This suggests Pursuit Deterrent Mine. That might work. HiLo48 (talk) 22:25, 19 October 2020 (UTC)

Rock vs. stone

This has been puzzling me for over a decade. What is the difference between the English words "rock" and "stone"? (Not counting that "to rock" means a sideways or back-and-forth motion, "rock and roll" is a type of music, and "stone" is an English unit of mass. I'm interested in the words related to minerals.)

Finnish, Swedish and German have only one word for both: kivi, sten and Stein, respectively. Even here on the English Wikipedia stone redirects to rock (geology). What is the exact difference between the words, if there is any? JIP | Talk 23:03, 19 October 2020 (UTC)

Apart from Stein, German has the words Fels(en) and Gestein. The general term "rock" in geology is "Gestein". The "Rock of Gibraltar" is the "Fels von Gibraltar". In most cases "rock" translates as "Fels" or "Felsen". --Morinox (talk) 08:02, 21 October 2020 (UTC)

To me (coming from an American context), the two terms feel very interchangeable, but I feel stone tends to carry an implication that it has been handled in some way by humans, while rock feels more "natural" or "unshaped" in some way. Houses tend to be made of stone, for instance, but we might build them on a rock. Definitely, if you're throwing these objects, as in stone skipping or stoning, you'd be using "stone." We usually talk about gemstones, but if we want to be really colloquial about things, we might talk about the "rock" on someone's engagement ring. If it looks especially craggy, it's a rock for sure (perhaps that's why we'd call it rock candy instead of stone candy?). bibliomaniac15 23:57, 19 October 2020 (UTC)

Some people say "she was rocking a new hairdo" or "he was rocking a green and purple jump suit". Apparently this means "wearing". They never seem to say "she was stoning a new hairdo". That's the essential difference. -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 00:37, 20 October 2020 (UTC)

I think the two have become very interchangeable in everyday use. An article written over at Marble.com has this to say:

While many use the terms interchangeably, there is a difference between the two. Stone is smaller than rock. To easily sum it up, rock is made out of stone and mineral matter. [...] Rocks are typically found in the earth’s crust. They can also be found on the surface. On the other hand, stones are non-metallic minerals.

Not sure how true this is, so if any geologists are around your input is greatly appreciated. —Tenryuu 🐲 ( 💬 • 📝 ) 00:49, 20 October 2020 (UTC)

That's not the correct geological definition. In geology, a rock is any naturally occurring solid mass or aggregate of minerals or mineraloid matter. (A mineral is a solid chemical compound with a fairly well-defined chemical composition and a specific crystal structure, that occurs naturally in pure form, while a mineraloid includes things without a crystaline structure and/or less defined chemistry, such as volcanic glass. Note also that a rock can be composed of just one mineral). "Stone" doesn't have a specific meaning in geology, but rather forms the name of certain types of rock (e.g. limestone, sandstone, etc). Iapetus (talk) 09:37, 20 October 2020 (UTC)

Stones are rock, but rocks are not stone; specifically, stones are made up from three general types of rock: igneous, sedimentary and metamorphic. Of course, in common usage, the two terms are often interchangeable. 2606:A000:1126:28D:E116:9691:BB76:CCCB (talk) 04:56, 20 October 2020 (UTC)

I am in the countertop business in the U.S., where "granite" countertops are often made out of stones that are not true granites. But nobody in the U.S. countertop business refers to "rock" countertops. We often call them "natural stone" countertops to differentiate them from synthetic stone products. The term "gravestone" is very old and it would be unusual to describe such a marker as a "rock". On the other hand, I have a background in mountaineering, where we talk about ice and rock. Steep climbing at lower elevations is commonly called rock climbing, and it is rare for climbers to discuss "stone" except in a joking or ironic way. So, stone refers mostly to these dense hard minerals processed and tranformed by humans, and rock refers to the same materials in a more natural form. That's my experience as a native speaker of American English. Cullen³²⁸ Let's discuss it 05:16, 20 October 2020 (UTC)

Agree with Culllen's comments above, but I think there's a BrEng vs AmEng difference in usage, in that in Hollywood films, people throw rocks, whereas an Englishman would only throw stones, (as in John 8:7). Also we have milestones and boundary stones in the UK which doesn't seem unusual at all. Also cobblestones. Alansplodge (talk) 08:11, 20 October 2020 (UTC)

As has been indicated above by Bibliomaniac15, I think that the main difference is that "stones" are used by people for building, marking and decorating etc., whereas "rocks" are the raw material from which stones are taken. Now I'm going to try to find something to back that up. Mikenorton (talk) 10:04, 20 October 2020 (UTC)

You mean like limerock and sandrock? --Jayron32 12:03, 20 October 2020 (UTC)

An interesting discussion on this topic that comes to similar conclusions in the end, to quote Robert Thorson "Rock is raw material in situ. Stone usually connotes either human handling or human use, although it can also be used to describe naturally produced fragments of rock larger than a cobble." Mikenorton (talk) 10:10, 20 October 2020 (UTC)

That seems like a fair description. Something to be taken into account: singular vs. plural. Rocks and stones are basically the same thing. Rock and stone, as individual items, are the same thing. Rocky and stony are the same thing. Rock and stone, as collectives, can vary. When my city sprays oil over a portion of a road, they will post a caution sign, which sometimes says, "Loose gravel" and other times says "Loose rock". ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 12:03, 20 October 2020 (UTC)

Another agreement on the general natural vs worked distinction, with the caveat that around my neck of the woods (North Carolina) we do "skip rocks" on the water. --Khajidha (talk) 12:15, 20 October 2020 (UTC)

British children used to play scissors, paper, stone. Nowadays, influenced by American media dominance, they play rock, paper, scissors. DuncanHill (talk) 13:31, 20 October 2020 (UTC)

Do Americans get stones in their shoes? Alansplodge (talk) 15:56, 20 October 2020 (UTC)

Decades ago there was a song about "A Stone in My Shoe", but I don't recall if it was by an American or a Brit. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 16:58, 20 October 2020 (UTC)

A "rock in my shoe" seems more common to me. Or even a pebble. "Stone in my shoe" isn't unknown, but it also isn't the first thing to come to mind. --Khajidha (talk) 17:20, 20 October 2020 (UTC)

Definitely an WP:ENGVAR thing then. Rocks here are much too big to fit in shoes; and pebbles are found on beaches (even in Rock). Bazza (talk) 17:39, 20 October 2020 (UTC)

wikt:rock#Etymology 1 names 14 meanings and also 14 meanings in translation and wikt:stone#Etymology has 13 meanings and 9 meanings in translation. Your Finnish word fi:Kivi has wikilinks to en:Rock (geology) and to de:Gestein. I have trouble in naming what the first image ″kivi″ in fi:Kivi shows in German, for the image has no scale on it. Thus it is de:Gestein. If it had a scale and if a man could carry it away it would be a de:Stein, if it would be so large that a man could not lift it it would be a de:Felsen. Note that neither de:Stein nor de:Felsen do have interwiki-links to either English or Finnish. --Pp.paul.4 (talk) 17:50, 20 October 2020 (UTC)

The distinctions between rock and stone vary by context. One interesting usage is "living rock". When sculpture or architecture is made from rock that is still attached to the earth it can be said to be made of "living rock". This is mentioned in Rock-cut architecture. (Not to be confused with Live rock.) Bus stop (talk) 18:35, 20 October 2020 (UTC)

Here, both "rock" and "stone" can mean a piece of any size. Given the size of the measurement "stone", I am surprised that British English would characterize the actual object as something small. --Khajidha (talk) 12:08, 21 October 2020 (UTC)

More like considering rocks to be bigger, rather than stones necessarily smaller (compare whetstones and millstones for example). I'm finding this discussion highly interesting, but have so far resisted the temptation to throw in any grit or gravel. Bazza (talk) 12:34, 21 October 2020 (UTC)

So you wouldn't describe the tiny bits of gravel in an aquarium as "rocks"? As is done on this package: https://www.amazon.com/Granite-Mini-Pea-Gravel-5lb/dp/B07MXPVJP7/ref=zg_bs_3048854011_5?_encoding=UTF8&psc=1&refRID=RQHWQFPYR4XJNEHZQ5JA --Khajidha (talk) 14:18, 21 October 2020 (UTC)

It seems to be a function of however they evolved in the language for specific usages. That's the result of having two words coming from two different sources, between Germanic and Latin. And doubt you'll find many rocks bigger than Sarsen stones, although Beacon Rock would qualify. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 15:18, 21 October 2020 (UTC)

What about Blowing Rock?--Khajidha (talk) 15:34, 21 October 2020 (UTC)

Ah, yes. And any number of large objects named Chimney Rock. There are also a number of large objects named Stone Mountain (disambiguation). ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 16:33, 21 October 2020 (UTC)

@Khajidha: No (not as a British English speaker). That's gravel, or "stones" at a pinch. I'd call these rocks, although the store is hedging its bets by calling them "rockery stone". It's one of the things which makes the English language so enjoyable to (mis)use. Bazza (talk) 17:17, 21 October 2020 (UTC)

I think the Yank/Brit difference here is not quite one of size. Brits may distinguish "rocks" from "stones" on the basis of size, with "rocks" being bigger, and it's understandable if they think Yanks just have them reversed. But I don't think that's true.

Americans are just much less likely to use "stone" as a count noun at all. "A rock" is a piece of rock/stone of any size bigger than sand, from gravel-size up to asteroid-size. "A stone" just isn't something we say much. "Stone" is a substance, not an object.

That's not to say we never say "a stone". We do use it occasionally, but I don't think it's based on size, as a general rule. --Trovatore (talk) 17:27, 21 October 2020 (UTC)

Trovatore, I think you've hit on the most important point here. --Khajidha (talk) 19:06, 21 October 2020 (UTC)

I think that even extends to Americans preferring to say that somebody weighs so many pounds, rather than so many stone and so many pounds. (Let alone kilograms, which are unknown in the novomundane world.) -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 22:01, 23 October 2020 (UTC)

As in "a stone's throw away". As to stone as a unit of measure, we Americans are far more likely to use "kilograms". The unit of weight called a "stone" is strictly British, to us. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 02:38, 24 October 2020 (UTC)

Yeah, "stone" is much more likely to be used in figures of speech than in literal references in American English. "A rolling stone gathers no moss" or "A stone's throw away" or "people who live in glass houses, shouldn't throw stones". It's more a literary/poetic word here.--Khajidha (talk) 12:45, 26 October 2020 (UTC)

One of the largest rocks I can think of is the rock referenced in 3rd Rock from the Sun. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 17:39, 21 October 2020 (UTC)

Sara Bareilles singing Laura Nyro's Stoney End at Rock & Roll Hall of Fame Induction Bus stop (talk) 12:16, 22 October 2020 (UTC)

Rock has its origins in Latin and entered the English language through Old North French before the Norman conquest while stone is Germanic in origin (cognate with Stein) and entered English through Anglo-Saxon. Since English developed from different Germanic dialects and later adopted Norman French terms, it has many words for the same thing. Sometimes these words take on different connotations and even different meanings. I have always thought of a rock as being bigger. While one may have a stone in one's shoe, Gibraltar and Alcatraz are referred to as rocks. TFD (talk) 23:40, 22 October 2020 (UTC)