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August 18[edit]

German exonym of Padua[edit]

I have been researching and recording the exonyms of various cities across Europe for various Europea languages, specifically the ones that are no longer actively used in in the modern era in addition to having enough different pronunciation and spelling from the native version. I have come across the city of Padua in Venetia, Italy and while the German Wikipedia page would indicate that the German exonym is the same as the English one, the Hungarian wikipedia page and the German Wikitionary page for Padua state that Esten is also another of its exonym in German. Is this correct and is there any reliable source backing this up? 70.95.44.93 (talk) 01:42, 18 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Esten in German means "Estonian", I'm pretty sure. 173.228.123.207 (talk) 02:15, 18 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Possibly a confusion with the nearby town of Este, Veneto, from which came the House of Este. --Wrongfilter (talk) 07:06, 18 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Interesting. Apparently Padua is not the only place in the area to have an alternate unrelated German name. Vicenza has Wiesenthein and Cimbria. --87.18.64.165 (talk) 07:36, 18 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

"Padova or Padua (Latin: Patavium, , German Padua (historically: Esten)) is a city and Province in the Veneto Region of northern Italy" Italia Outdoors - PADOVA | VENETO REGION, although Wikipedia could easily be the source for this.

The same question was asked on Talk:Padua#Ancient german name: Esten in December 2013, which says; "Is there any source for Esten as the historical (until when?) german name of Padua? The only reference I can find with Google is de.wikipedia, itself without any external source. I am italian, I do not live in Padua but I have never heard of such a name". But answer came there none. Alansplodge (talk) 14:23, 18 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

It was also asked at the German reference desk in 2015: de:Wikipedia:Auskunft/Archiv/2015/Woche_19#Angeblicher_alter_deutscher_Name_der_Stadt_Padua. The editors reach the same conclusion Wrongfilter did: Confusing Padua and Este (formerly Ateste) which aren't identical. Pinging Florian Blaschke because he asked the question at the time, and may have more to add. ---Sluzzelin talk 16:13, 18 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

87.18.64.165 -- "Cimbria" is derived from the name of the Cimbri (not to be confused with the Cumbrians or Cimmerians)... AnonMoos (talk) 17:02, 18 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

That is not so clear. There are (more accurately: were) pockets of speakers of the Cimbrian language, a German dialect, around Vicenza. These people, the de:Zimbern, may have been named after the Cimbri, but it seems also possible that the name is cognate with timber and the similarity of names is a coincidence. Was the city ever named after these people? This page says the name Cimbria for Vicenza was a legend created by some humanists from Vicenza. I guess we would need to dig quite a bit deeper into the history of the region to come up with solid facts. --Wrongfilter (talk) 17:37, 18 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I suspect the page is right. For the name of the Zimbern, see Cimbrian language § History. I can't vouch for the timber etymology, but it is reasonably plausible; in that case, the connection with the Cimbri may be due to learned pseudo-etymology by humanists, again. Zimbrisch/Cimbrian is a strikingly conservative and also deviant form (more precisely group of dialects), influenced by surrounding Romance dialects, of Southern Bavarian (Tyrolese/Carinthian etc.), with numerous traits reminiscent of Middle High German and even Late Old High German. There's no connection to the ancient Cimbri (who may actually have been Celtic- rather than Germanic-speaking). Vicenza is close to the traditional settling areas of the Zimbern, as can be easily verified on the map.

@Sluzzelin: I don't really have anything to add. I still think the conclusion that Este(n) properly refers to Este, Veneto, is probably right. The modern German exonym of Padua is Padua, indeed, and I don't know any other one. --Florian Blaschke (talk) 04:22, 19 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

@Wrongfilter: and @Florian Blaschke:, can I ask what you (and the linked Italian-language article) mean by "humanists" in this context? It doesn't seem to be my (British English) understanding of the term (see Humanism). {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 2.123.24.56 (talk) 18:21, 19 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

See Renaissance humanism. --Florian Blaschke (talk) 18:33, 19 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]