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October 13[edit]

Is there a difference between a speech impediment and an idiosyncratic pronunciation of a normal native speaker?[edit]

Yeah, I know some speech impediments, like stuttering or lisping, are not considered "normal". However, I know some native speakers pronounce certain phonemes in their native language unusually. I once had a math teacher who kept pronouncing theta like "feta". He also had a very German last name, suggesting that he might be German-American. But then, he had an otherwise perfect Standard American accent, so at least he was likely raised in America. There are so many different languages in the world. And there are so many variations in a population. Is it possible that genetic variation and predisposition to make specific sounds cause the variations in language, and as time passes and the populations become more separated, the two populations evolve different languages? Is it possible that one just can't pronounce a specific phoneme (the rolling tongue sound or the r-colored vowel), but is a normal native speaker without any speech defects? Or does the failure to produce all kinds of phonemes, native or foreign, mean that the person has a defect? At what point do people draw the line between a speech defect and an idiosyncratic accent? 140.254.70.33 (talk) 14:00, 13 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Was he able to pronounce other "th" sounds the English way? Do other Germans have problems with the English "th" sound? ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 14:09, 13 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I just know that kind of pronunciation was most salient, because every time he meant to say, "theta", I thought "feta" as in "feta cheese". Then, I noticed he drew the theta symbol θ, and I quickly realized what he meant. 140.254.70.33 (talk) 14:22, 13 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

140.254.70.33 -- pronouncing [θ] as [f] is a feature of some non-prestige British dialects (more usually after the vowel of a syllable, but occasionally also at the beginning). AnonMoos (talk) 02:00, 14 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Yes there is. Idiosyncratic pronunciations by non-native speakers are due to the phonology difference between the two languages. PLEASE read the above section where phonology is discussed, so it doesn't have to be repeated. When a non-native speaker tries to learn a new language, it is common for them to preserve some of the phonology of his native language in the new language. This preservation of phonology is NOT a speech impediment, merely a habit carried through from the prior language which has a different sound system than the newly acquired language. That's why native German speakers who learn English are recognizable as native German speakers, because the way they alter English pronunciationsn (to match German phonology) is consistent. Different is not wrong, it should be noted. There are many native English dialects (such as Estuary English for one) where native speakers would (per your example) pronounce "th" more like "f" and "v" (unvoiced and voiced). It's consistent and regular within said dialect. --Jayron 32 14:27, 13 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I meant to refer to "idiosyncratic pronunciations of native speakers," not non-native speakers or regional dialects/accents. 140.254.70.33 (talk) 14:55, 13 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

If it was just one person, and was not part of his native dialect (which I will take on faith as true), then it could have simply been a speech impediment. There are many dialects in the world of English, however, and there is a non-zero likelyhood he was simply speaking in that dialect. Without any further information, there's no meaningful way to answer the question "why did he do that". You've given us very little information to go on besides "He did this one thing". Fine. There's probably nothing we can do to diagnose why he did that. --Jayron 32 15:35, 13 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

So, my understanding is that something can only be a speech impediment or a regional dialect. It can never be a simple variation resulted from a mutation of the population. 140.254.70.33 (talk) 16:16, 13 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

No, it could be that to. It could be ANYTHING. It exists, because you attested that it exists. I'm not sure what further questions you might have. Your question amounts to "Is it possible for him to speak this way". You SAID that he did speak that way, so of course it is possible. Without having met him or had any record of him, there is no way for us to know why he spoke that way. There's a thousand different factors at play here, and ultimately there's no way to say which one of them (if any) could cause anything. He did it. OK. Ultimately, EVERY person has a unique idiolect which is a combination of many many many different factors. There's simply no way for anyone here to tell you which one factor (if any) caused what you are asking. So when you say "could it have been..." you're most certainly right, and if you say "was it definitely not..." you are certainly wrong. Everything else in between is up for play. --Jayron 32 16:20, 13 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

It's also possible that the OP was mis-hearing it. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 16:24, 13 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

(ec)That conclusion may be too simplistic. Some folks just pronounce things differently. I recall a teacher, a native speaker of American English, who insisted on pronouncing "issue" as "iss-you" rather than "ish-you" which is what most everyone else says. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 16:22, 13 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Unless they spoke with a transatlantic accent (if American) or Received Pronunciation (if British), in which case "iss-you" is the expected pronunciation. --Jayron 32 16:24, 13 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

If one person has children, then would he pass on his own idiolect to his children, while his children develop their own idiolects? As time passes by, if this guy's descendants are separated by a mountain without any communication, then they will develop their own native accents and even languages? 140.254.70.33 (talk) 16:51, 13 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Your questions are vague, and the factors that go into answering them are always complex. Every time you ask a "would" question of this type, the answer is "maybe", and every time you ask a "could" question of the type the answer will usually be "yes"--Jayron 32 16:04, 14 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I can think of examples in my own family and friends in which they moved to other parts of America and over time developed the prevailing speech pattern of where they moved to. The thing is, a speech impediment consists of trying but failing to reproduce sounds that are commonplace in one's native language. Consider Elmer Fudd, whose R's and L's come out like W's. He wants to say "rabbit", he tries to say "rabbit", but it comes out "wabbit". A speech teacher could help with that problem. However, there are some native British English speakers I've known who pronounce a word like "well" as if it ended in W's, just as Elmer Fudd would - except that it's not a speech impediment, it's normal for their group's speech. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 22:19, 13 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Those dialects change "dark" or velarized "l" after the vowel of the syllable (which is found in most varieties of English, see Velarized alveolar lateral approximant) to a kind of "w" offglide. I was very confused once when someone asked me "Are you called Bill?" and I interpreted it as "Are you cold, Bill?"

-- but people who speak that way do not sound like Elmer Fudd. AnonMoos (talk) 02:00, 14 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

When they say a word such as "well" and it sounds like "weh-oh", or a word such as "Bill" and it sounds like "Bih-oh", that's like Elmer Fudd, at least to these American ears. The point being that though it sounds like a speech impediment, it's not. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 07:09, 14 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Our Cockney article calls it L-vocalization (see the L-vocalization#Modern English section), although User:Baseball Bugs's transcription is not terribly accurate to my native East London ears. Alansplodge (talk) 10:58, 14 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]