Language desk
< August 20	<< Jul \| August \| Sep >>	August 22 >

Welcome to the Wikipedia Language Reference Desk Archives
The page you are currently viewing is an archive page. While you can leave answers for any questions shown below, please ask new questions on one of the current reference desk pages.

August 21[edit]

Elder / Eldest / Older / Oldest[edit]

Hi. In a conversation yesterday I was talking about the youngest of 3 brothers, and at one point made a comment comparing him to the oldest of the 3. It went something like "... his elder, no eldest, no older, no oldest...". 'Older brother' to my ( O'level, grade B) mind is right, because he has only 2, but to my reasonably well trained (UK) ears, 'his older brother' implies he has only one. Originally using elder only confuses me further, where 'eldest' sounds like it works, even though he only has 2. Thanks for any help. 81.153.169.191 (talk) 14:26, 21 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Have a look at this which should help you. Bazza (talk) 14:37, 21 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]

(edit conflict)"-est" always applies to groups of 3 or more. "-er" always applies to groups of exactly 2. So the "oldest" would only work if you have more than one brother. The difference between "eld-" and "old-" is dialectical. They are perfect synonyms. See comparative and superlative. --Jayron 32 14:39, 21 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Gosh, thanks for the quick reply, but my understanding still hasn't reconciled itself with my ear. About half way down the reference from Bazza is "My older sister is coming to stay with us at the weekend", which I think the article is using as an example to use when I have exactly 2 sisters. But if someone told me their older sister was coming to stay, I would assume that she had one sister, who was older.81.153.169.191 (talk) 14:50, 21 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry. To clarify: the number includes yourself in usual usage. Thus, if there are three sisters in my family, including myself, I would use "Oldest". If I had only one sister I would use "Older". --Jayron 32 15:18, 21 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks again, but if in usual usage I introduced you to Jayron, my younger sister, you would really assume I had 2 sisters? 81.153.169.191 (talk) 15:31, 21 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry if I guessed the gender wrongly. I've only taught one Jayron (F), whose cousin was also called Jayron (M). I flipped a coin. (And would write this in small text, as seems the custom, but I'm not sure how.81.153.169.191 (talk) 15:31, 21 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]

No problem. On the Internet, nobody knows you're a dog (or a male in this case). No, the comparative/superlative usage in this case, always assumes the self in the count. So, if my family has 3 siblings (lets use the word siblings, to avoid the uncomfortableness of not being sure of gender):

Chris, Age 31
Terry, Age 29
Stacy (me) Age 25

Then Chris is my oldest sibling, and Terry is my older sibling. If we had a family like this:

Jamie, Age 31
Francis (me) Age 27

Then Jamie is my older sibling, and we would never use "est". If the family looked like this:

Tracy, Age 30
Sam (me), Age 27
Jordan, Age 25

Then you would say Tracy is my older sibling (since I am just comparing Tracy to myself), and Jordan is my younger sibling, but you would say that Tracy is the oldest of the family (as in that usage, we're including all three). I hope that helps. --Jayron 32 15:55, 21 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]

It does, and answers my original question. Thank-you. If I'm not trying your patience too much: if someone tells me about their 'older sibling, can I tell if they are Francis talking about Jamie (which I would assume), or Stacy talking about Terry (which I wouldn't - I would probably use something like 'middle sibling')? And if I go back to introducing you to Jayron, my younger sibling, all you can be sure of is that I have at least one sibling, at least one of whom is younger than me? 81.153.169.191 (talk) 16:18, 21 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Yeah, the "-er" suffix presents some ambiguity, as it doesn't give any indication of order or number, only that it's someone who is older or younger; -est is reserved for the extreme one only. So, you could have ten siblings, and you can be the last born, and you'd call all except the first born your "older" sibling. The firstborn (and ONLY the first born) would be your oldest sibling. --Jayron 32 16:52, 21 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]

"Older" can sometimes include the oldest. E.g. "I have two older sisters" is perfectly correct, even though one of them has to be the oldest. If I refer to my oldest sister as "My older sister Sally", I'm not wrong, because she's still older than me. SemanticMantis (talk) 17:37, 21 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]

And I suppose if they were twins, you could even have two oldest sisters... --Jayron 32 17:52, 21 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]

"uncomfortableness"? What's wrong with discomfort, lol. Akld guy (talk) 19:43, 21 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Missing something about embarrassment, or self-consciousness, and quite understandably. Discomfort is when it's obvious they are trying tricks on you to that same effect. --Askedonty (talk) 12:19, 24 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]