Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2014 November 21

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November 21

English to a Japanese

Does English script look as weird and alien to Japanese people as Japanese script looks to us? 117.174.192.16 (talk) 23:14, 18 November 2014 (UTC)

I can't say how weird it is. But I can say that the "English script" you are talking about is the Latin script. Or you may be talking about Anglo-Saxon runes. 71.79.234.132 (talk) 23:50, 18 November 2014 (UTC)

The Latin alphabet (what everyone here is typing in) is known as Romanji (or "Roman letters") in Japanese. Romanji is not exactly rare over there, so there's at least a significant portion of the population who are familiar with Romanji. Most of the Japanese programs I've seen where someone was typing on a computer or sending a text message, they typed a Romanji character first, and the computer then changed it to the relevant Hiragana character. Ian.thomson (talk) 00:05, 19 November 2014 (UTC)

See Romaji. KägeTorä - (^影_虎) (Chin Wag) 11:52, 19 November 2014 (UTC)

117.174.192.16 -- Nowadays the Latin alphabet is pretty much a component of the Japanese writing system, which was not a great stretch, since the Japanese writing system already included 2,000 or more logographic characters, and two different syllabaries containing about 50 syllable signs each... AnonMoos (talk) 02:24, 19 November 2014 (UTC)

All Japanese learn English at school. Many, if not all, kindergartens teach English, so they can at least recognize the letters by the age of about five, even if they are unable to put them to any useful purpose (they just learn capital letters and the names of the letters). In elementary school, they study from 1st grade (though not for any exams), so by the end of elemntary school, they have already been exposed to English for at least six years. English is compulsory in Junior High and High schools. Also, the Latin alphabet is very often used in conjunction with Japanese even within the same sentence. I would not say they foud it strange to see, considering they are in contact with it on a daily basis. Also, as said above, in order to type in Japanese (on a mobile phone or computer), one has to type in the romaji first, then change it to the Japanese character required (Japanese computer keyboards do have Japanese characters on the in addition to the Latin ones, but that input method is not popular). Not to mention that website addresses are invariably in the Latin alphabet. KägeTorä - (^影_虎) (Chin Wag) 11:52, 19 November 2014 (UTC)

@117.174.192.16: Romaji, or as you call it "English script", it quite common in Japan, so I don't think you'll find many Japanese people shocked by it. However, even though romaji looks like English, it's not really English. Romaji is taught at Japanese elementary schools, but it's being taught as another way of writing Japanese, not as English. I've "taught" English at public Japanese kindergartens, public elementary schools and public junior high schools at various times during the last 20+ years, and can say that much of what KagaTora says is true. Things have changed quite a bit over that period of time and English is being introduced to more and more children at earlier and earlier ages. Even so, the level of instruction is still not very high, so you still tend to get more "let's have fun" types of classes than serious "let's study and learn" types of classes at the pre-JHS level. Based upon my experience, many public elementary schools/kindergartens still treat English as more of a "general studies" or "internationalization" type of thing and "classes" are still often just "taught" by a homeroom teacher, who typically isn't trained to teach English, and a native-English speaker, who is usually hired from an agency. The two "teach" together as a team doing various games and other activities designed more for fun than serious study. Private and international kindergartens/elementary schools, on the other hand, are set up a little differently than public schools, so they may be able to devote more time and resources to serious study. My observations are that even today most Japanese kids still get more exposed to English outside of school than they do at school either through private after-school lessons or through their parents, etc. - Marchjuly (talk) 13:41, 19 November 2014 (UTC)

"Sunset over Shinjuku" - kana and kanji a-plently, but Latin script at the center of the image

Not it doesn't. Japanese people are very used to the Latin alphabet. There's three main uses for the Latin alphabet in Japan: to write English (which everybody learns) or any other language that uses the Latin alphabet, to write things like those initials which use the Latin alphabet (e.g. N.H.K. or whatever) inside a normal Japanese text written in kanji and kana (when the Japanese text is written vertically the Latin letters are written sideways), and for transliterating Japanese. This last use is obviously the least useful and important to the Japanese themselves. But you do find some Japanese transliterated in Latin letters for some streets, subway stations, etc. for the benefit of foreigners. The term "roomaji" is used in a broad sense to mean the Latin alphabet in general or in a more restricted sense to mean only the last use (romanization of Japanese) and specifically a particular method of romanization (e.g. Hebonshiki Roomaji, Nihonshiki Roomaji, etc.; see Romanization of Japanese) Contact Basemetal here 14:03, 19 November 2014 (UTC) PS And of course I forgot a fourth important use which may be the most important of all (but which Kage Tora mentioned): computers, where the preferred method is to input Japanese kanji and kana through an English type keyboard. Contact Basemetal here 14:08, 19 November 2014 (UTC)

I'd reckon that the Latin alphabet probably gives off the same impression to the Japanese as Roman numerals do to modern English speakers. They are familiar with them, and they don't look odd, but they give off a certain vibe differently than other things. Tharthandorf Aquanashi (talk) 14:30, 19 November 2014 (UTC)

If so then in opposite ways. Roman numerals would tend to look old fashioned in English whereas things written in Latin letters would tend to look cool and modern. Contact Basemetal here 14:46, 19 November 2014 (UTC)

Cyrillic off-top

• Total OR, but we used up a class period discussing this at University. First, the Greek and Roman majuscules as well as the Futhark are supposedly influenced by the exigencies of carving on wood and stone. This tends to favor simple combinations of straight lines: AEFHIKLMNTVXYZ, for example. Note also the Greek sigma, Σ and delta Δ. The minuscules were developed for a more cursive style using ink on parchment or papyrus, hence the rounded forms of the lower case, especially Greek: αβγδεζηθικλμνξοπρσ/ςτυφχψω.

Now, for the OR. We noticed that Chinese ideograms (the OP speaks of Japanese, but geolocates to western China) are much more 'organic' than the Wester alphabets, resulting in part from there being closer to pictograms, and the need to have many hundreds, rather than a few dozen forms.

While the Latin alphabet seems to have evolved for simple geometric forms (consider T, L, and X used to describe angles and intersections, and the K turn and the U turn) the Greek minuscules seem to aim for elegance and maximal distinguishability. English has qpbd, while no lower case Greek letters are simple rotations of each other, and only nu ν and upsilon υ really ever run the chance of being mistaken for each other if one is not careful. The Cyrillic alphabet was criticized for its many very similar letters that one needs to make sure are clearly distinguished:БВ ДЛП ЪЫЬ ИНЙ ЧЦ ШЩ. μηδείς (talk) 20:02, 19 November 2014 (UTC)

I can reassure that judging by this criteria Latin deserves more critics for its illegibility and similarity than Cyrillic: h-n-b, rn-m-u, l-I, i-j, v-w, b-p, q-g etc. Many Russian children have problems distinguishing one or another letter when they firstly learn a European language. Those lazy Westerners who cannot distinguish Б-В or Ч-Ц, must either learn Cyrillic better or buy glasses.--Lüboslóv Yęzýkin (talk) 08:50, 20 November 2014 (UTC)

Westerners? Contact Basemetal here 09:45, 20 November 2014 (UTC)

I think I already mentioned qpdb, Ljuboslov. In any case, you'll be happy to know the occasion was the last day of Greek 202, after the final exam. Students were allowed to leave once the finished the exam, but many had nowhere to go and we were all familiar with many languages, so the comparison was between the superiority of the Greek alphabet, the minimalism of the Latin alphabet, and the brutality of Cyrillic. (Now someone's going to call me a Rusyn.) μηδείς (talk) 20:14, 20 November 2014 (UTC)

"Wise men say, only fools....." Don't worry, Medeis, we can't help falling in love with you... :) KägeTorä - (^影_虎) (Chin Wag) 06:24, 21 November 2014 (UTC)

many had nowhere to go and we were all familiar with many languages, so the comparison was between the superiority of the Greek alphabet, the minimalism of the Latin alphabet, and the brutality of Cyrillic - this is just stupid (was it enough brutal to say?).--Lüboslóv Yęzýkin (talk) 08:17, 22 November 2014 (UTC)

Yes, "Westerners" are those silly poor people who historically have had to live at the of very edge the Eurasian continent and later they even have been forced to travel to another big continent (called "Murrica" in their corrupted creole) at the western edge of the Atlantic pond as nobody could stand them anymore. As usual they are characterised by their arrogance, ignorance and even fear of the people to the east of their edge.--Lüboslóv Yęzýkin (talk) 08:11, 22 November 2014 (UTC)

I thought Russians were part of those silly poor Westerners. They are the silly poor Westerners who got their asses kicked numerous times by real Easterners (such as the Mongols) and so, to guarantee this doesn't happen again, they had to go all the way up to Vladivostok and Sakhalin, but in so doing they just extended Europe to the Pacific. Just ask the Chinese if they think Russians are "Easterners". Contact Basemetal here 08:33, 22 November 2014 (UTC)

Whether Russia is "the West" or "the East" is an everlasting existential Russian dilemma which may be dated back to the 16th century (if not to the 11th century). The early West-European authors of the 16th-18th centuries tended to treat Russians as "eastern despotic schismatic barbarians" as opposed to their holy only true western Christianity (later relabeled as "Freedom and Democracy"™). Most probably the well-known concept of "Russian (Red) peril" came from those times. Unfortunately, as you mentioned right, the "Eastern Easterners" like Mongols or Chinese or the "Western Easterners" like Turks or Arabs do not want treat Russians as any-sort Easterners either. So Russian are stuck in between. Maybe they are just "Centerers"? The ancestors of both Europeans and Asians came through Russia anyway. If we return to the perceptions of alphabets, so "brutal Cyrillic" (which sounds absolutely silly for me) is rather an echo of 500-year old "Russian/Eastern schismatics peril" stereotypes. Especially if we know that Cyrillic is just a 9th-10th century Greek alphabet with extra letters which later in the 18th century was restyled by Dutch typographers.--Lüboslóv Yęzýkin (talk) 21:04, 22 November 2014 (UTC)

So it's the Dutch who made it brutal! I'm not surprised seeing how they play soccer (cf. Robin van Persie's "Flying Dutchman")! Let's note however that printing was introduced to Russia much earlier and using presumably a less "brutal" type. Already Иван Грозный founded Russia's Московский печатный двор in 1553 (having some innocent brutal fun here), which was Russia's first publishing house, although I don't know if that means it was Russia's very first printing shop. The first printing of Cyrillic characters however was done in 1513 by the Belarusian Francysk Skaryna on the territory of the then Grand Duchy of Lithuania. Regarding where Russia stands, let Russians not let themselves be defined by others. Besides, if UEFA and the Eurovision say that Russia is in Europe who cares what Hitler and Napoleon thought. Note that the Byzantine Empire and other places were at one time as eastern, as despotic and as schismatic, but never were as maligned as Russia. (That is if you ignore things such as the Sack of Constantinople where the Crusaders on their way to defend the Holy Sepulcher from the Turks thought they'd stop at Constantinople instead and burn the last remaining copies of Menander, Sappho, etc.) So there could be something else. Maybe size?

Skaryna's Bible: A kinder gentler type of Cyrillic?

Contact Basemetal here 12:03, 23 November 2014 (UTC)

The type of Fyodorov was nearly identical to the book handwriting of the style of the time (polu-ustav "Cyrillic uncial") that was in turn nearly identical to the Greek uncial of the end of the 1th millennium. Skoryna printed his books in Prague and was a sort of outsider to the Eastern Christianity (some suspected him of heresy and advocacy of western Protestant ideas). His type was quite unique. The story of the Petrine typographic reform is well told here (if you don't understand Russian, you can use Google Translate and get a general idea and look at fine illustrations at least).

The West-East Russian dilemma is a difficult subject, here is not too convenient place for discussing. But one thing I can say: the starting point and the first motive force of these anti-Russian sentiments were Russian-Lithuanian and later Russian-Polish wars. Lithuanians and Poles were the main intermediates between West Europe and Russia (this is why Russia fought westward then - it needed no intermediates). In their best interest was to create a bad image of their old rival for their Western potential allies. When Lithuanians beat Russians in 1514 under Orsha they even were issuing one of the first propaganda pamphlets about "barbaric schismatic Muscovites". Later on history this scenario has repeated many times, as you can see even from modern Western MSM (I think I stop at this point). And yes, other things like Russian geography complicate the matter also as well. --Lüboslóv Yęzýkin (talk) 08:50, 24 November 2014 (UTC)

Thank you Любослов for your remarks and for correcting my errors. Indeed the Библия руска of Skaryna (or Skoryna, Russian spelling?) dates back to 1517 when he was in Prague. Contrary to what I said it is also not the first book printed in Cyrillic. That belongs to Schweipolt Fiol's Октоих. (Not gonna import yet another picture here, there's enough of them already, but you can follow the first link and see what it looks like). Contact Basemetal here 23:44, 24 November 2014 (UTC)

I've been studying Cyrillic paleography and typography through and know the matter relatively well, but thanks anyway, I forgot about Fiol for a moment.--Lüboslóv Yęzýkin (talk) 14:15, 25 November 2014 (UTC)

When I wrote "you can follow the first link and see what it [Fiol's Октоих] looks like" I of course did not mean "you Любослов" but a general "you" meant for all readers and especially of course for those who, like me, are not very knowledgeable in these matters. Sorry for mixing the two "you"s. It would have been extremely silly of me indeed to suggest that you (Любослов) could, if you wanted, follow the link if you wanted to see what that book looked like. Sorry about that. Contact Basemetal here 15:34, 25 November 2014 (UTC)

• The word brutal was used by me, Любослов Езыкин to refer to the blocky, and unsubtle nature of Cyrillic, with its general lack of distinct minuscules, and preference for straight lines over letter like s,g, and so forth. Cyrillic handwriting and italics are much more elegant, but also much more recent: абвгдежзийклмнопрстуфхцчшщъыьэюя. Rusyn uses both Cyrillic and Latin, BTW. As for living on the Western margin. Shoreline geography is much more productive. Historically the route of population shifts in Eurasia has been away from the barren, brutal, and bare central steppe and towards the coast. Look ate the Manchu, Mongol and Hun movement into China and Europe. No sane Irishman has ever wished to live in the Tarim basin. μηδείς (talk) 22:02, 24 November 2014 (UTC)

How come you can get (true) italics on the Russian WP but not here? If you want to see what Cyrillic italics, which Medeis mentioned, look like check out the picture at ru:Курсив where you will also see that the Russian WP displays them in its text. Regarding Central Asia: I don't know about Irishmen, but somebody must have gotten into Central Asia for people to come out of it afterwards. Contact Basemetal here 23:44, 24 November 2014 (UTC)

The big thing with Central Asia is it was a harsh proving ground where horse training advanced more quickly than elsewhere. So waves of invaders from the east invade Europe, and from the west, China. The PIE peoples came first, followed in historical times by the Bulgar Turks and Hungarians, The Ottoman Turks, and the Mongols. Pictures of the early Turks show people with Oriental features. The same happened eastward from the Altai Mountains into China. This expansion from the center is paralleled by the Algonquian-Ritwan peoples, who seem to have originated from the area where the Blackfoot people live in the northern plains of North America. μηδείς (talk) 00:27, 25 November 2014 (UTC)

Nevertheless, I do not agree with such epithets for Cyrillic like brutal, rough, blocky, illegible or alike. Maybe, my sharp reaction can be explained because I have been in discussions "Latin is better than Cyrillic" many times, and I'm really sick of such silly personal taste arguments. You, like all "Latiners" (if you don't like the term "Westerners"), like Latin minuscule and think that it's "good and elegant" because... well, because! You're just accustomed to it. And if some writing system lacks the qualities you're used to, then such a writing system seems "brutal" or (insert any epithet) for you. For me, a "Cyrillicer", Cyrillic seems quite elegant, uniform and stylish, unlike Latin uneven minuscule (Greek "chicken scratches" minuscule is even worse). And again I'd say Cyrillic is as closest to Latin as it could be (they're two sister alphabets, actually) and they are not too different (both are "brutal and blocky" if we compare with all other Asian alphabets).--Lüboslóv Yęzýkin (talk) 14:11, 25 November 2014 (UTC)

It was not my desire to provoke anyone, but to report the discussion faithfully. The consensus was that Greek had the most elegant and easily distinguishable system. The comment on Cyrillic was a minor side issue.μηδείς (talk) 17:53, 25 November 2014 (UTC)

Suggestion for an essay

I would suggest that the IPA is analogous to the periodic table. The periodic table starts off your basic understanding of chemistry. You don't need to understand the intricacies of isotopes, valence electrons and a whole bunch of other stuff (most of which I don't understand) to benefit from knowing it. Knowing that salt is made up of Sodium and Chlorine and water is made up of Hydrogen and Oxygen opens up your understanding of the physical world.
Similarly, learning that the <u> in "butter" is not the same sound as the <u> in "cough", "caught", "put", "fuel", and so on opens up your understanding of language. For me, finding out about what ə meant was like finding about the elements that made up water and salt.
So: Wikipedia:Why you should learn the IPA should be written. WP:RL/L people: what do you think about this proposal? P AU aka --Shirt58 (talk) 10:55, 20 November 2014 (UTC)

Wrong section. That was two days ago. See above. KägeTorä - (^影_虎) (Chin Wag) 12:56, 20 November 2014 (UTC)

Westerners? Contact Basemetal here 09:45, 20 November 2014 (UTC)

The "u" in caught? What the devil does that mean? The "au" represents /ɔ/. The "u" by itself represents nothing here. Tharthandorf Aquanashi (talk) 02:49, 21 November 2014 (UTC)

You're not supposed to read beneath the lines. Contact Basemetal here 09:42, 21 November 2014 (UTC)

"The "u" in caught? What the devil does that mean?" It means that orthography ≠ phonology. Moshi-moshi KageTora. Have you read "Exercises in the Yokohama Dialect, Oh my? --Shirt58 (talk) 11:13, 21 November 2014 (UTC)

Ha ha ha. "Japanese" along the AnonMoos principles. It's so demented it's brilliant. I love pp. 20-21 "Church = Oh Terror" (presumably from お寺 "otera"?) and "Punishment = Pumpgutz" (not able to decipher that one; anyone?). Contact Basemetal here 11:35, 21 November 2014 (UTC)

And another good one: "Officiating priest = Tacksan hanash bosan" that is "The Monk Who Talks A Lot". I think in normal Japanese this should be たくさん話す坊さん "Takusan hanasu bousan". And this is only from two pages and there's even more on those two pages. Thank you Shirt for uncovering this treasure trove. It should be clear this is not normal Japanese but a kind of pidginis Japanese that was presumably in use in the city of Yokohama as a communication means between Japanese and foreigners in the 19th c. Contact Basemetal here 14:09, 21 November 2014 (UTC)

It's only now that everyone is realising that our United Kingdom tiny group of islands were the safest place all along, so now there are so many here, we are on the verge of sinking! :) KägeTorä - (^影_虎) (Chin Wag) 09:25, 22 November 2014 (UTC)

Did you mean to write United Kingdom or did you in fact intend tiny group of islands? Wiki syntax has got a few "irrversible binomials". Not a native speaker yet? Contact Basemetal here 10:01, 22 November 2014 (UTC)

Seems like I did indeed. Thank you for pointing that out. I should employ you as a proofreader. KägeTorä - (^影_虎) (Chin Wag) 12:00, 22 November 2014 (UTC)

It contains such amusingly rubbish glossary items like "bootmaker = coots pom pom otoko" (くつ ポンポン 男 - "shoes bang-bang male") and "earthquake = okee abooneye pon pon" (大きい 危ない ポンポン - "big dangerous bang-bang").

(Kage, I'm - as they might say in the Exercises in the Yokohama Dialect - "bikooree star" you hadn't heard of it!)

Now, about this proposed essay... --Shirt58 (talk) 09:08, 23 November 2014 (UTC)

You're not gonna produce an IPA version of the "Exercises..." are you! (And not to sound pedantic but "pom pom" is supposed to mean "hammer" (so "shoes hammer male person") while it's "pon pon" that's "bang bang". What distinction in Japanese that is supposed to represent is anyone's guess.) To be fair, if you read the preliminary matter, the humor is not entirely involuntary and Japanese readers were aware of it, witness this humorously despondent comment from a Japanese newspaper, the Nisshin Shinjishi (日新真事誌) (founded as it happens by the Scotsman J. R. Black): "We have feared this. Our currency tampered with, and our hair cut the wrong way; and now this book comes along, and pulls the roof off our language." Contact Basemetal here 19:31, 23 November 2014 (UTC)

Acknowledgement/Proof read

Hello friends,

I hope you all are well.

I need help...

Can someone read the information in the link provided please, and let me know if this website functions the same way as Wikipedia or not.

The link: http://www.wikihow.com/wikiHow:Creative-Commons

Regards.

(Russell.mo (talk) 14:47, 21 November 2014 (UTC))

Not exactly. That site uses a noncommercial Creative Commons license—that is, material on the site cannot be used for commercial purposes. The license(s) Wikipedia operates under allow all uses, including commercial, as long as attribution is given. Deor (talk) 14:57, 21 November 2014 (UTC)

Thank you very much Deor. Regards -- (Russell.mo (talk) 05:33, 22 November 2014 (UTC))

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