Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2013 December 24

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December 24[edit]

English dialect in Denmark?[edit]

Is there a specific way Danes speak in Denmark? Since English is the second language of the country, is there a specific dialect? If not, are there any differences whatsoever? Or do they just tend to speak English regularly? — Preceding unsigned comment added by MadisonGrundtvig (talk • contribs) 02:55, 24 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I think they usually learn Standard British English, which is derived from one of London's dialects. There's another question though of whether Danes have the option of learning either British English or American English in school and then which one is dominant? There's really not any such thing as regular English. Live in the different countries and you realise it fairly quickly. Good thing we understand each other most of the time.... Sir William Matthew Flinders Petrie | Say Shalom! 21 Tevet 5774 03:05, 24 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I'm Danish. People learn English in school because it's an important language when communicating with foreigners, but few people speak it at home, and many people never speak it. People with Danish as first language usually have a Danish accent when they speak English, but that's not a dialect. It's like the better known German and French accents in people who have those as first language. Danes will sometimes make direct translations of Danish expressions when English uses another expression, but this is also common when speaking a foreign language and not considered a dialect. I don't know whether we are closer to British or American English. It may be influential that we watch more American films and television. I haven't heard of schools offering a choice between "British" and "American". PrimeHunter (talk) 03:20, 24 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Now that I think about it, I've only heard of the choice being offered in Israel. Most people seem to learn more from films and TV than from their English classes at school, sadly. Sir William Matthew Flinders Petrie | Say Shalom! 21 Tevet 5774 03:42, 24 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • The Danes I know, who have emigrated from Denmark to North America, speak North American English with a strong Danish accent, which approaches a weak German(ic) accent. That is, a German)ic_ who speaks American English will do so with a slightly British-ish accent no matter what, if only because the clipt sounds of German(ic) are closer to those of British than American English. (British consonants are, for the most part, closer to those of other Germanic languages than are those of American English.) I have also met Swedes and Norwegians who speak American English with a Germanic accent. I'd assume Danes who move to Britain take on an even more British accent, but I haven't met any. μηδείς (talk) 04:49, 24 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
For any language significant long-standing population of native speakers in particular area is needed to create a different dialect (at least several hundreds or thousands). I doubt such population of English-speakers has been existing in Denmark. Everything else is substratum, accent and interference.--Lüboslóv Yęzýkin (talk) 04:56, 24 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I understand that. But without your giving links I doubt it helps the OP much. μηδείς (talk) 05:18, 24 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I've just played CO here.--Lüboslóv Yęzýkin (talk) 12:13, 24 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
This is mostly based on my personal experience. Danish accent(!) involves peculiarities of pronounciation, phonology and of errors when using verbs, especially, in my experience the over-use of the verb "were". Pronounciation: The "s" sound sometimes sounds like a "sh" sound. The "th"-sound either is more like a "sh"-sound or a "d"-sound depending on the word. Some consonants are pronounced with less emphasis. The phrase phonology often stresses words in unexpected ways. Mads Mikkelsen speaks excellent english, but I can still hear a faint danish accent. I found this also: http://www.yorku.ca/earmstro/scandinavia/Danish/Danish%20Breakdown%20for%20VASTA%20Conf%202013.pdf . DanielDemaret (talk) 10:52, 29 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
To my ear, all other things being equal, Scandinavian people generally tend to sound more British-English than American-English. (As well as most of them seeming to speak better English than many native British speakers.) 86.151.118.102 (talk) 14:12, 30 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

In Brazil what does it mean if someone went to 'college' ?[edit]

Having attended 'college' means different things in different places. When someone from Brazil says that they attended 'college', what level of education, or type of institution, are they probably referring to? Thanks if you can answer and/or provide a reference. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.173.50.222 (talk) 11:00, 24 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Try google translate. μηδείς (talk) 15:47, 24 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
So you've shown that, according to Google translate, high school is rendered as "colégio". But back-translating "colégio" gives "college"; so how does this answer the question? (Mind you, there are confusions between different varieties of English in this area: a Brit asking "Where did you go to school" is unambiguously asking about secondary (or primary) schooling, not about college or university). --ColinFine (talk) 16:06, 24 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
(edit conflict)Well, were they speaking Portuguese or English? Medeis's suggestion of using Google Translate may not ultimately prove useful for two reasons. Firstly, it may not be right to begin with (for example, if you put in the French word "collège" and translate it to English, it says "college". This is quite wrong; I would translate it as "Middle School"). Secondly, "college" does not mean the same thing in British English and American English. Google Translate therefore probably won't help much at all. Sadly I only know like four words of Portuguese, so I don't know the answer to your question. Falconusp t c 16:12, 24 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Seriously, folks? Trying to get in your last minute nitpicking before the stores close? The question was obviously, could the Brazilian mean something different from college in the way college is most often used in English. What exactly would have been the OP's point in asking if it were obvious the same thing were meant? When colegio doesn't mean college, it means high school--that's the answer. "University" is used when Engish speakers might say college. Nor did I deny that google translate gives alternative definitions, and or that it should always be used in forward and reverse to check a meaning. μηδείς (talk) 18:10, 24 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Well, we have two editors who independently didn't think your "obviously" was obvious, or your very brief answer helpful. --ColinFine (talk) 18:49, 24 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
(edit conflict) The OP asked "what" it means, not "could" it mean something different. You instructed the OP to go to Google Translate. You claim that "colegio" means "high school", so you obviously know Portuguese at least well enough to pick up on that difference. That then begs the question: why would you refer the OP to Google Translate (which is not a reliable reference) instead of just saying that you know the answer? You do speak Portuguese, I hope, and are not just guessing. Falconusp t c 18:52, 24 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
It does depend on what language they were speaking and who their audience is. In London, a Brazilian saying that they attended "college" might mean a Further Education college. If speaking in the USA or to Americans, they probably mean higher education. It's rather unlikely that, speaking in English, they would mean secondary school, even though colegio means "high school". Itsmejudith (talk) 20:50, 24 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I am not "claiming" colegio means high school and only high school. Nor did the link I provided list high school as the only meaning. These are words, and words have various senses. I am saying that the relevant sense given the OP bothered to ask the question (i.e., noticed there might be a difference between what was heard and what was expected) is likely what is meant by high school in (American) English. μηδείς (talk) 21:11, 24 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I'm glad someone's mentioned "(American) English". In my (English speaking) country, Australia, people don't go to college. They go to high school, then, if they're doing further study, they go to university or TAFE, or might get an apprenticeship. This is a bloody good question. HiLo48 (talk) 23:41, 24 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
This goes back to the same reason why Australians don't have blackboards; primogeniture. The original American colleges were actually founded by graduates of Oxford and Cambridge, who were satisfied to compare Harvard, Yale, and Queen's College to the constituent schools of those universities, not by ex-inmates of Master Prym's correctional school for Juvenile Reprobates. Not suffering from inferiority complexes, Americans reserved the name university for schools offering graduate degrees, which, at first, the above schools did not offer. This unassuming modesty confuses Europeans and their transportee cousins in the nether continents. μηδείς (talk) 05:21, 25 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Wow. I am the OP. A little disappointed that nobody seems to have a helpful answer to what I thought was a simple question. But you leave me with another simple question. Are you people high? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.106.118.196 (talk) 12:41, 26 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Hi, OP. Did you read my reply? In what context was the Brazilian person speaking? Were they most likely to be talking to Americans, British people or Australians? See our article college for the many meanings that the word carries. Itsmejudith (talk) 12:52, 26 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Might as well hat this thread as trolling if the OP has no interest in clarifying his meaning. μηδείς (talk) 16:03, 26 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

OP here. The speaker was Brazilian. Speaking in English, in the Netherlands, to other English speakers who were not British or (North) American. There were responders above who I think understood the point of the question. 'College' can refer to different types or levels of education in different countries. We were trying to figure out what it means in Brazil. Does it mean they went to a university, as it probably would mean if the speaker was from the USA, or does it mean something else in the Brazilian system? The Google Translate suggestion was not helpful, as everyone was speaking English throughout. When the thread turned to Australians, blackboards, primogenture and nether continents...I reckon Medeis was more interested in hearing himself type than in providing useful answer to the question. No need for further consideration, as an answer was useful on Monday, but moot today. I find the reference desk most useful when people provide direct links to authoritative sources relevant to answering relatively straight forward questions. Indeed, writing clear questions is its own art, or science...But replies that are simply speculation or elaborate opinions are usually much less satisfying. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.106.118.196 (talk) 16:31, 26 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I am sorry I ruined your Christmas with my joke to HiLo. You seemed to be long gone and uninterested in clarifying your question. Is there some reason to assume that the Brazilian could not possibly have been taken in by the fact that colegio and college are false friends between his native and target language? If it is not possible that he meant high school, what is it possible he meant? What hint caused the question of what he meant to come up in the first place? If I understand you, you seem to be asking what the English word college means. Is the fact he was a native Brazilian irrelevant to the question?
Given Google Translate provides:
  • college faculdade, colégio, universidade, agremiação, campus
  • school escola, colégio, faculdade, curso, edifício escolar, corpo docente
  • high school colégio
  • campus escola, colégio, terrenos de universidade
I am not sure what could possibly be more helpful than emailing the guy and asking him what he meant. μηδείς (talk) 17:25, 26 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Falconus and I both did our best to give you a meaningful answer. I can sum up for you now. The word is ambiguous in English and there is nothing in the Brazilian education system that can help you through that. I can find you hundreds of links if you like, but the essence is in our article college, an article that I have edited in the past. Itsmejudith (talk) 18:54, 26 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

To the OP: I was using my volunteer time to try to help you out by trying to make sense of your question, which frankly is open to a lot of interpretation, and by trying to address potential pitfalls in the recommendation to use Google Translate. Just a few pointers about the reference desk:

  1. Asking "Are you people high?" is not going to aid us in providing better answers to you or anybody else. Frankly it is a little bit insulting and annoying, and it accomplishes nothing.
  2. We are all volunteers. We post because we want to; we don't have to. Nobody is obligated to answer any question, including yours. The time that I take in answering or commenting on these questions is me being nice to you, the person who asked. If my answer does not help you, I'm sorry... But please be nice. I still took time for you that I didn't have to, whether or not you find my efforts useful.
  3. If the answer was useful on Monday but not today, you have come to the wrong place. It is written at the top of the page that "We'll answer here within a few days." It often takes us a few days to hash out a decent answer. If you are pressed for time, ask elsewhere.
  4. It is much easier to give precise answers to precise questions. Besides not making clear any context for the Brazilian using the word "college", the word "probably" implies uncertainty. How could I possibly give you a clean, academic reference for what an individual from Brazil probably means by the word "college"? I have known several Brazilians, and I have to say that some of them speak British English, some speak American English, some speak almost perfect English, and some speak English with more difficulty. We can discuss your question, and give you some ideas, but we cannot authoritatively answer it with the information that you have given us. Sorry, but please don't blame that on us, because we aren't psychic and we don't know this Brazilian.
  5. You have no obligation to ask questions on this desk. You certainly may, and I welcome you to, but we won't be insulted if you seek a question/answer forum somewhere that you find leaves you less "disappointed".

I hope that this helps! Falconusp t c 04:34, 27 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Our article Education in Brazil suggests that "college" is used for higher education institutions in Brazil, but, as explained above, the exact meaning could depend on who was speaking to whom and in what language. Dbfirs 20:56, 27 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Word for a detail-oriented person[edit]

A word keeps dancing around my head but never quite settles: It's a word for a particular type of person who is good at little, repetitive things. It has aspects of persnickety, finicky, particular, and fussy, among others, but without the negative connotations, though the word can be used as such. The word is an adjective, I think. Any clues? Mingmingla (talk) 18:57, 24 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Meticulous? Falconusp t c 18:58, 24 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
OCD? KägeTorä - (影虎) (TALK) 19:52, 24 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Scrupulous? Punctilious? Deor (talk) 20:19, 24 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Punctilious seems almost right but it doesn't quite satisfy my itch. If there are any other ideas I would appreciate it. Mingmingla (talk) 20:44, 24 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Perfectionist? I am assuming you have googled whatver word you find closest and looked for synonyms. μηδείς (talk) 21:13, 24 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I was unsatisfied with the results, which is why I'm asking here. Mingmingla (talk) 22:26, 24 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Well, the term used on Wikipedia is "gnome" :-). Looie496 (talk) 23:53, 24 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Pedantic may fit, though I doubt it is ever used in a neutral meaning. --Cookatoo.ergo.ZooM (talk) 00:00, 25 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Lower-left brained. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 03:14, 25 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • I found conscientious and a list of synonyms: diligent, industrious, punctilious, painstaking, sedulous, assiduous, dedicated, careful, meticulous, thorough, attentive, hard-working, studious, rigorous, particular; religious, strict. Richard-of-Earth (talk) 09:49, 25 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
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