Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2011 October 31

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October 31

Pronunciation mergers in southern England

In southern England there seems to be a system of pronunciation considered "standard" English pronunciation in the present day, sometimes fatuously called Received Pronunciation (it seems fatuous because "received" seems like a theological term). Would I be correct in guessing that in that dialect

• "cores" is not pronounced differently from "cause";
• "father" is not pronounced differently from "farther";

? Michael Hardy (talk) 04:31, 31 October 2011 (UTC)

Growing up in England, that has been my experience, yes. I'm not sure of a good reference work to back it up though. — Mr. Stradivarius ^♫ 05:50, 31 October 2011 (UTC)

That is correct, although the words you cite are homophones in many other dialects as well. See Rhotic and non-rhotic accents. Lesgles (talk) 06:07, 31 October 2011 (UTC)

Indeed your guess is correct but I'm a bit puzzled about the term "southern England". To where are you referring? I'm not sure that locals speak with a 'received pronounciation' in Devon, Somerset or Essex for example'. I believe this term was coined in a time when it was thought that there was or should be a standard pronounciation of English. In recent years opinion seems to have moved towards a more liberal acceptance of accents across the UK. Richard Avery (talk) 08:02, 31 October 2011 (UTC)

I was writing with a very broad brush when I wrote "southern England". Michael Hardy (talk) 03:12, 1 November 2011 (UTC)

Not so Richard, there are many RP speakers in Essex; you shouldn't believe everything that you hear on television. Of course, there are local dialects which co-exist in with RP in a sort of spectrum from Cockney and Multicultural London English into Estuary English; also the rural Essex dialect, although in rapid decline, can still be heard in the north of the county. Alansplodge (talk) 09:35, 31 October 2011 (UTC)

According to our article on Received Pronunciation, it originated in the East Midlands in the Middle Ages, then drifted down to London, and spread outwards from there. Certainly, in South West England, other pronunciations are commonplace - but, of course, general social and physical mobility, and telecommunications, mean that variations in pronunciation are tending both to even out, and to be distributed more widely than in previous centuries. Ghmyrtle (talk) 09:47, 31 October 2011 (UTC)

Is it really allowed to use RP in public nowadays? I thought that was outlawed along with foxhunting. In my teens, with a shortwave receiver, I used to enjoy tuning in to hear the sounds of Big Ben striking the hour, followed by the dulcet announcement, "This is the BBC Weld Service," and the jaunty strains of "Lillibullero" or sometimes "The British Grenadiers." Now I get no enjoyment out of hearing BBC newscasters, they all sound so dreadfully common - like, well, Americans.  :) Textorus (talk) 10:05, 31 October 2011 (UTC)

What seems paradoxical to me is that a system of pronunciation in which distinct sounds get merged like this is "dulcet" whereas those who pronounce different words differently are thought of as "dreadfully common". Michael Hardy (talk) 02:34, 1 November 2011 (UTC)

It's a matter of taste, to be sure; but see legato. And don't overlook the smiley at the end of my comment. Textorus (talk) 23:18, 1 November 2011 (UTC)

Oh well, at least we can take some consolation in the fact that such high standards of writing, grammar, spelling and civil discourse prevail on this site. < < < Note: joke. Ghmyrtle (talk) 10:46, 31 October 2011 (UTC)

Do remember that, as with most things in England (and, to an extent, the rest of the UK), to really understand the distribution of accents and dialects you need a 3D map, with 'class' as the depth. It varies with both class and location, such that two individuals of the same stratum of the middle class in Bude and Oxford will both speak with a version of RP, but it will have local differences, while two individuals of different classes in the same area will also have different versions of the local accent closer to or further from RP. 86.163.1.168 (talk) 22:36, 31 October 2011 (UTC)

True, although using the word "class" can cause some confusion. It's largely a matter of upbringing and family background, rather than current economic position - the two are correlated, but far from perfectly. Social mobility does exist in England. Ghmyrtle (talk) 23:14, 31 October 2011 (UTC)

VN name

There is a female name Nguyen Thi Thu Huong, full VN might be Nguyễn Thị Thu Hương, what is the meaning of each word in her name? Nguyen may be the husband name. Thi is a common middle name for women. What is the meaning of Huong, is possible to recover the corresponding Vietnamese-Chinee character, if it exist?--刻意(Kèyì) 12:06, 31 October 2011 (UTC)

See:

• Nguyễn
• Thị, wikt:Thị, wikt:thị
• wikt:thu#Vietnamese, there are also thụ, thú, thư, thứ
• wikt:hương and wikt:hưởng (I noticed you might be unsure about the correct tone marker)

Does this help? --Theurgist (talk) 16:02, 31 October 2011 (UTC)

(edit conflict) Our Vietnamese name article gives the Chinese characters, although it doesn't say what the names mean, if they actually mean anything. (Although the ones adopted from Chinese would ultimately mean something in Chinese, at least.) Adam Bishop (talk) 16:04, 31 October 2011 (UTC)

Depends on how old the person in question is, the only way to be sure might be to ask her for the characters for her name, or to ask what each individual name "means" - from this the characters can be reconstructed with relative certainty. --PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 20:37, 31 October 2011 (UTC)

• Thu Hương (秋香 - autumn fragrance) is an appropriate female Vietnamese name. All the other possible spellings don't make much sense in the context of a female name. DHN (talk) 20:41, 31 October 2011 (UTC)

"Meanie Ferret"

Hey. A friend of mine, who happens to be a Wikipedia user, is always uttering the phrase "Meanie Ferret". He insists it's a real phrase that can be used to refer to a person or object that is acting in a manner which you dislike. I could find no proof of this. Can you confirm or deny these reports? Thanks a ton! Cowback23451 (talk) 14:26, 31 October 2011 (UTC)

Are you suggesting that you do not understand him or that he should not say things that fail to appear on a list of pre-approved statements? See idiolect, neologism and competency (linguistics) and productivity (linguistics). μηδείς (talk) 16:48, 31 October 2011 (UTC)

There are half-a-dozen Google hits showing usage of the term by various people, and there is an online person who goes by the name of Meanie Ferret Man -- that's all I can find. Certainly not a commonly used phraseLooie496 (talk) 16:59, 31 October 2011 (UTC)

A regular favorite

In this eulogy of William Niskanen, he is said to have been "a regular favorite at the Finnish Embassy". Does this mean that he visited the embassy often and was well-liked because of who he was, or that he was frequently asked to perform at the embassy because of his singing voice? The meaning of the word "favorite" is unclear to me. --Pxos (talk) 16:15, 31 October 2011 (UTC)

Favorite as a noun, meaning "A person or thing that is especially well liked," is an old, established usage in English. Your intuition was correct: being of Finnish ancestry, as the article says, he presumably attended many functions and parties at the embassy and got to know the staff. Textorus (talk) 21:04, 31 October 2011 (UTC)

"Redundant" in UK English

Redundant seems to have the chief meaning of "useless duplicate" in UK English, unlike in US English, where the chief meaning is "useful duplicate" . Does it carry both meanings in UK English, and, if so, how do you know which definition is meant ? And which usage is older ? StuRat (talk) 18:04, 31 October 2011 (UTC)

I have added a citation needed tag in your statement. --Belchman (talk) 18:25, 31 October 2011 (UTC)

In U.S. English, the term redundant means "duplicate", and is completely unqualified. The qualification (whether such duplication is useful or useless) is usually gotten from the context in which the word is used. --Jayron32 18:28, 31 October 2011 (UTC)

In UK English, it means "superfluous", hence "unnecessary". Ghmyrtle (talk) 18:41, 31 October 2011 (UTC)

I actually think that's the chief meaning in US English, too, though I agree with Jayron that it can also have a positive connotation, in the sense of "providing backup". Marco polo (talk) 19:12, 31 October 2011 (UTC)

I'd be inclined to divide it among technical and non-technical uses. Colloquially, it's always negative, while used as a technical word in electronics, engineering, anatomy, and so on, it is neutral or positive. EDIT: In American English, that is. Lsfreak (talk) 19:20, 31 October 2011 (UTC)

In the UK context is everything. Being made redundant means being laid off as not needed. Redundant systems means duplicates in case of failure. I think that because of the common use in terms of laying off workers people would normally assume the negative connotations if the context isn't clear. -- Q Chris (talk) 19:24, 31 October 2011 (UTC)

When all else fails, check the dictionary. Textorus (talk) 20:53, 31 October 2011 (UTC)

In scientific and engineering contexts, I think it usually means a useful duplicate; a spare part that can be used if another part fails; a bit of extra information in case some part of the signal fails to get through. I read a statement by a(n Italian) professor in a technical field that the Italian language has more redundancy than any other, and Sanskrit has less than any other. Among those whose usual study is language and literature, redundancy seems to mean things like "ATM machine" and "Department of Redundancy Department"; it is something to be avoided. Michael Hardy (talk) 03:10, 1 November 2011 (UTC)

"Redundant" seems to me to have the same connotations in US as in UK English, except that US English does not refer to workers who have been laid off as having been made redundant. John M Baker (talk) 13:49, 1 November 2011 (UTC)

I never quite understood the phrase "made redundant". To me that would mean they must have hired another worker who does your job, but it doesn't quite seem to mean that, rather something more like you were "determined to be redundant". Is "made redundant" short for "made out to be redundant" or something like that ? StuRat (talk) 04:34, 2 November 2011 (UTC)

Permanent positions are "made redundant," and thus the people occupying the position are "made redundant" as their labour is redundant to a position which is redundant to a business practice (as decided by a manager's right to manage. Generally it is the management who are superfluous to the proper management of business process for output efficiency. Fifelfoo (talk) 04:46, 2 November 2011 (UTC)

But still, in that example management doesn't actually "make" you unnecessary, they only decided that you are. To me that's like saying someone was "made blind" when all you really did was determine that they were blind. StuRat (talk) 04:55, 2 November 2011 (UTC)

Actually, I would say that "made redundant" is oxymoronic: It means that your employment has been terminated, so in fact your services are no longer redundant, if they ever were. But I'm American, so it's not surprising that it sounds weird to me. John M Baker (talk) 15:06, 2 November 2011 (UTC)

It's used a lot in Australia to inform others that the reason you left your last job was not that you were incompetent or broke some rules or even that you were sick of it, but that the employer determined they couldn't use your services anymore because of a downturn in work or some other change that was beyond your control and maybe even beyond their control. It means a lot to leave a job on good terms, and saying you were made redundant gets that message across very nicely and succinctly. Even though it was still the employer's decision to end the employment, it's a vastly different thing from "I was sacked". Yes, technically it is oxymoronic, but it's so much easier to say than "I was let go because they determined I was redundant". -- Jack of Oz ^{[your turn]} 19:03, 2 November 2011 (UTC)

The equivalent term in the U.S. is "I got laid off." Which is acceptable, but not nearly as much fun as "I got laid." Though in some cases, you might say "I got screwed out of a job." Which is not the same thing at all. Textorus (talk) 12:55, 3 November 2011 (UTC)