Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2011 October 27

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October 27

Chinese reading

A Chinese name is 陳進興 - It's Chen Chin-hsing, one of Pai Hsiao-yen's killers

What is the reading of "興" in this context? Thanks WhisperToMe (talk) 08:05, 27 October 2011 (UTC)

It's Chen Jin Xing. The Chinese Wikipedia has an article on him, which insanely doesn't show the pronunciation, but a Google search verifies the pronunciation I gave. however, I am unable to find the tone for the final 'xing', which can be either 1st or 4th tone. --KägeTorä - (影虎) (TALK) 08:47, 27 October 2011 (UTC)

Thanks for your help! I started this topic in order to get the final "xing" tone, so I would like to wait until that question in answered. WhisperToMe (talk) 13:32, 27 October 2011 (UTC)

This source gives the pronunciation for the name as Chén Jìnxīng. This is not the same person, since the birth dates are different, but the pronunciation is almost certainly the same, especially since the meanings associated with the pronunciation xīng ("rise," "flourish," etc.; also the pronunciation for a surname using that character) are much more likely as elements of a Chinese name than the meanings for xìng ("desire," "excitement"). Marco polo (talk) 15:12, 27 October 2011 (UTC)

Agree with Marco - while both readings are positive, the former is "auspicious" while the latter is merely happy. When used as part of a personal name, it is most likely intended to take the first tone. --PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 15:43, 28 October 2011 (UTC)

What-all

My family's southern and western members often append "all" to the words "what", "who", and "where" to produce a slightly different meaning than if one were to use the pronouns alone. (I have never heard it appended to "why", "how", or "when".) For instance, "What-all did you buy?" / "Who-all was at the party?" / "Where-all did you go?" feel somehow distinct from their "all"-less equivalents. Specifically, they are more emphatic and inquisitorial, and imply that the questioner wishes to be fully informed, at length if necessary. The "all" also seems to emphasize that the question is genuine and not an empty pleasantry. The "all" is unstressed and closely connected to the pronoun, almost like a suffix. I associate this vaguely with the south, or perhaps the southwest, or even the Appalachian region, but it doesn't seem to be widely parodied in popular culture, as, for instance, "y'all" is. So maybe my impression is inaccurate, and the usage is not widespread. What precisely is the geographical or ethnic origin of "what-all" and the like? Is a similar usage found in any dialect of English outside the United States? LANTZY^TALK 18:18, 27 October 2011 (UTC)

I always thought the "all" interrogatives are just plurals. That is, something like "Who all was at the party?" or "What all did you buy?" is prompting for a list of answers rather than just a single one (and thus is exactly parallel to you > you all). I also thought this sort of thing was actually quite common in the US (it certainly is where I'm from, in Maryland), and that's how I typically use them. Voikya (talk) 18:24, 27 October 2011 (UTC)

This isn't really a very helpful answer, but I can confirm that it's very common in (at least southeast) Texas. And I concur with Lanyzy's basic analysis of its meaning: I might paraphrase "what-all did you buy?" as "what is the precise catalog of all the items you bought?" But in a sense that's a logical extension of Voikya's meaning --Miskwito (talk) 18:28, 27 October 2011 (UTC)

Merriam-Webster (sense 5) does label it "chiefly Southern", though I've heard it frequently in the Midwest. Deor (talk) 18:31, 27 October 2011 (UTC)

Having lived most of my life in New York and New England, I would say that this particular usage is rare in the Northeast (at least, north of Philadelphia and outside of African American communities). However, it is very common in my mother's extended family, which originated in Texas. Marco polo (talk) 19:01, 27 October 2011 (UTC)

My understanding of it as used in the South (I grew up in places ranging from Tennessee to Florida) is that the querent is seeking a more-or-less complete list of the subject queried; i.e., what are all the things that you bought? who were all the persons that were at the party? where are all the places you went? --Orange Mike | Talk 19:58, 27 October 2011 (UTC)

Growing up in Ohio, I heard this usage frequently, with the same meaning as Orangemike gives it. Nyttend (talk) 01:16, 28 October 2011 (UTC)

So, does anyone know if this usage occurs anywhere outside the United States? LANTZY^TALK 21:00, 27 October 2011 (UTC)

Never heard of it in the UK. Astronaut (talk) 16:02, 28 October 2011 (UTC)

It's used in parts of Northern Ireland (and maybe northern parts of the Republic as well). The syntactician Jim McCloskey has written about the construction in West Ulster Irish English, where you can also find the all to the right of the verb. Thus in that dialect, all of the following are possible:

• What all did you give to the kids?
• What did you give all to the kids?
• Who all did you send to the shops?
• Who did you send all to the shops?
• Tell me what all you got for Christmas.
• Tell me what you got all for Christmas.

Reference: McCloskey, James (2000). "Quantifier float and wh-movement in an Irish English". Linguistic Inquiry. 31: 57–84. (Apparently, Jim McCloskey's dialect also allows "Irish English" to be a common noun governed by the indefinite article.) Angr (talk) 16:38, 28 October 2011 (UTC)

I'm from SW Ontario and I wouldn't be surprised to hear "who all", "where all" or the other variants in anything but the most formal of speech. We-all don't use "y'all" except when trying to play a stereotypical "suthen" accent, though; it would be marked as quite informal. Matt Deres (talk) 21:48, 28 October 2011 (UTC)

Latin/Greek scholars please?

This is a continuation of a [[1]] question above; I'm trying to coin a two word 'species name' to serve as a title for a novel. The important elements are a large nose, miraculously beautiful prose, a litany of wonders, romantic love, and perhaps the theme of transformation.

It doesn't need to include all of these elements, thouugh. If the 'species name' translates vaguely as 'splendid book of the beautiful nose', or something like that, I'd be happy.

What do you scholars think of Magnificobilios proboscidea? Or Miraculebiblium euprobosccidae? Am I anywhere near something ok? Am I right in thinking that species names are sometimes a mix of Greek and Latin?

Thanks - and thanks to everyone who helped in the previous posting too Adambrowne666 (talk) 22:27, 27 October 2011 (UTC)

Thaumasibiblos cyranoides? Deor (talk) 22:58, 27 October 2011 (UTC)

::Ha! - cyranoides! I like it! Cyraniad, maybe? - the iad suffix to suggest a journey? But then oides is more suggestive of a species name - sorry, just thinking aloud here...Adambrowne666 (talk) 23:32, 27 October 2011 (UTC)

Or perhaps callirhina thaumateucha. I'd definitely want "thauma-" in there somewhere. But there's a lot of room for creativity in this case. And macaronic language is very common in scientific nomenclature. LANTZY^TALK 23:21, 27 October 2011 (UTC)

Does thaum=death? - thanks for these - I'm having a great time! Adambrowne666 (talk) 23:32, 27 October 2011 (UTC)

Thaum = magic or miracle, see wikt:thaumaturgy. --Jayron32 23:57, 27 October 2011 (UTC)

Thaumasi- would be an adjectival stem, from the adjective thaumasios, "wondrous" or "marvelous". Deor (talk) 00:08, 28 October 2011 (UTC)

(I just realised I was confusing thanatos with thaum, by the way)

Ah, thanks, Jayron. I'd prefer if the language was more similar to English, or more familiar Latin/Greekisms, to help people a bit with the meaning - makes it harder, I know, because it's sometimes hard to guess what people are familiar with... Adambrowne666 (talk) 23:59, 27 October 2011 (UTC)

If you have an actual image of some animal in mind can you describe it? There is Hallucigenia, you know. μηδείς (talk) 00:11, 28 October 2011 (UTC)

Yeah, I love Hallucinogenia, and Anomalocaris, but I'm not really thinking of any animal in particular - just a fantastic beast that happens to belong to the bookly phylumAdambrowne666 (talk) 02:38, 28 October 2011 (UTC)

My scholarly opinion is that Magnificobilios sounds a bit like cobblers, and therefore I like it ... is it a typo for -biblios, though? That spoils the effect.  Card Zero  (talk) 08:32, 28 October 2011 (UTC)

Much as I like to invoke cobblers, it was a typo, sorry, Card0 - so I'm thinking Magnificobiblios cyranoides or Miracubibulum cyranoides - something like that - I'm wary of the bibulum though - is that verging on something related to alcohol? forgive my almost total ignorance here... Adambrowne666 (talk) 20:59, 28 October 2011 (UTC) -- or Magnificobiblios proboscidae...

Biblios = papyrus, hence scroll, book. Cf. Bible (Eng.), biblioteca (Span.), and many other derivatives. Textorus (talk) 07:08, 29 October 2011 (UTC)

Thanks heaps everyone - I've come up with something I like - Hallucinogenia Proboscoides - it's coming out next September, here in Australia - the WP Research Desks will get a big thanks.

2-part Chinese question

1) What is this company? They made this (brass?) statue of the Monkey King. The characters are too vague for me to read. The last one could be 道 (I'm not an expert).

2) This seems to be a common pose for the Monkey King in several of the more modern drawings/paintings and statues that I've seen. Are there early examples of this, say from the pre-20th century? Is it a martial pose related to some staff method? --Ghostexorcist (talk) 23:08, 27 October 2011 (UTC)

It looks like made by 美富达. The logo matches.--刻意(Kèyì) 13:44, 28 October 2011 (UTC)

Thank you. I was way off on the last character. --Ghostexorcist (talk) 15:35, 28 October 2011 (UTC)

Latin prefix 'in'

As a new latin student I'm curious about something--- there are many words in English which seem to have been formed by marrying the 'in' preposition with a verb

Ex: in + bibo = imbibe, in + fluo = influx

but there's a whole slew of English words where the 'in' preposition is clearly being used as a negation

Ex: in + lego = illegal, in + possum = impossible

I'm not asking about the letter change, I understand how that works--I'm just wondering when 'in' started being used as a negation, because I don't think i've ever seen it used that way in Latin.71.232.14.6 (talk) 23:28, 27 October 2011 (UTC)

The in- negation form is indeed a native development within Latin from PIE which is cognate with the English un- and Greek an- prefixes. It didn't start in Latin but was inherited from the proto-tongue. See here: [2], although be aware the form actually developed from a syllabic n- prefix, not ne- as such. (Syllabic /n/ is the same sonorant sound you hear in button where the o is not actually pronounced.) I strongly suggest you purchase Calvert Watkins' The American Heritage Dictionary of Indo-European Roots, Third Edition if this sort of thing interests you. μηδείς (talk) 00:09, 28 October 2011 (UTC)

See previously Wikipedia:Reference_desk/Archives/Language/2007_September_9#Confusion_about_in-_and_un-... -- AnonMoos (talk) 01:33, 28 October 2011 (UTC)

Just a few Latin adjectives with the negative in-, all of which have descendants in English: innocuus, inimicus, insanus, infinitus, impurus, impunis, integer. Angr (talk) 14:14, 28 October 2011 (UTC)