Language desk
< March 25	<< Feb \| March \| Apr >>	March 27 >

Welcome to the Wikipedia Language Reference Desk Archives
The page you are currently viewing is an archive page. While you can leave answers for any questions shown below, please ask new questions on one of the current reference desk pages.

March 26[edit]

Mistaken common knowledge[edit]

I read an article on here once that had to do with the common knowledge that everyone takes for granted, but frequently isn't even true. It's the things everyone "knows" and repeats. I was looking under "general knowledge" and "common knowledge" but I couldn't find the word I'm thinking of. Any ideas? --BennyD (talk) 00:57, 26 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Possible articles: Common misconceptions, factoids, conventional wisdom, truthiness, ... ---Sluzzelin talk 01:00, 26 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

also urban legend, old wives' tale. Gwinva (talk) 01:08, 26 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Conventional Wisdom!! You got it. I knew it was something simple, I just couldn't for the life of me remember it. Thanks --129.21.140.49 (talk) 04:45, 26 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I don't believe that "conventional wisdom" always has the meaning that it "frequently isn't even true". In some cases, it can mean something that has always been true but that we've recently forgotten, such as "Perhaps we need to return to the conventional wisdom of living within our means, rather that racking up debts we can never hope to repay". StuRat (talk) 16:12, 26 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

There are also canards. LANTZY ^TALK 19:27, 27 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

William[edit]

Why are some Williams "Bill" and others "Will"? JCI (talk) 02:20, 26 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Because that's how they choose to be called, and how others choose to call from. Most English names have several diminutive forms to choose from. Algebraist 02:50, 26 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Que Sera, Sera, Whatever Will Be, Will Be. (Unless he Bill Be). Yoda (talk) 03:44, 26 March 2009 (UTC) [reply]

Uncle Bill will never leave a will... --Dr Dima (talk) 07:09, 26 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Diminutive names, tell me about it. Richard Avery (talk) 08:44, 26 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The "Will" nickname is obvious, as it's just "William" truncated. "Bill" is a bit more mysterious. Did there used to be a variation of the name: "Billiam" ? I've wondered this about many other nicknames, too, like why someone named "Richard" would choose to be called "Dick". StuRat (talk) 16:07, 26 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Well, there are 2 questions there. (1) How did the nickname Dick for Richard originate? (2) Why would a person use Dick these days when it has acquired ... another connotation?

My take on Q. 2 is that many words have different meanings in different contexts, and we don't usually confuse them - although in Dick's case there may admittedly be a temptation to think of the more recently acquired meaning. I chose my WP username quite innocently, and only later did I realise that the first 6 letters made certain low types think of an undreamt of activity. But by then my reputation was set in stone and I wasn't about to change my name just because some undesirables made light of it. Indeed, it could have some positive spin-offs: such as, it could give them an idea for something to do on a rainy Sunday afternoon to take their minds off vandalizing Wikipedia, so I'm happy (and so would they be). -- JackofOz (talk) 19:29, 26 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I'm also interested in the nicknames for 'Richard'. My take on it is that Richard -- although an English name -- is German-based, as in Rickard. It then follows somehow that Rickard became Rick became Dick. Dick isn't a bad name -- it's quite bold, but I must say the sexual connotation would make most people do a double-take Rfwoolf (talk) 19:41, 26 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The Old English word "dick" originally meant "pudding". We still have an English dish called "Spotted Dick", which is a steamed pudding with dried fruit in it, giving it spots. The sexual overtone was only acquired some centuries after the original word. --TammyMoet (talk) 09:46, 27 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, Richard came from a Germanic name Ric-hard, hence Rick. Dick became an alternate form quite early on, possibly because early English speakers didn't always manage the Norman R. Similar constructions can be seen in the medieval shortening of Roger to Hodge and Dodge. Billy is a later invention, possibly from the Gaelic variants on William. (King Billy was an early example). Swapping or adding consonants in pet forms is not too unusal. Eg Peg(gy) for Margaret (from Meg); Polly from Molly, from Mary; Sally for Sarah; Nell(ie) for Ellen and Eleanor; Harry for Henry; Hattie for Harriet; Baz(za) and Muz(za) for Barry and Murray... Pet names come about because they're easy to say. An approximation is enough. Possibly some come from babytalk (children unable to say their own name, or their siblings). Gwinva (talk) 00:30, 27 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Thamk you! Fascinating. Rfwoolf (talk) 05:44, 28 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Using Bill for William comes from the German (and eastern European)variants like Wilhelm, pronounced with a /v/. The change from /v/ to /b/ is not particularly difficult to make. Thus Baltic names like Vili, Bilis, etc. are also from the same origin. William (Will Bill Willy Billy Liam) is probably only surpassed by Elizabeth (Eliza, Beth, Liz, Lizzie, Bess, Bessie, Buffy, Liza, Ellie) for the number of diminutives used in English. Steewi (talk) 03:20, 27 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I don't think using Bill for William comes from German. English has lots of nicknames where the first consonant is replaced by another, such as Bill for William, Bob for Robert, Peg for Margaret, and Polly for Mary. My suspicion is that it comes from baby-talk reduplication: William becomes Willy-Billy, Robert becomes Robby-Bobby, Richard becomes Ricky-Dicky, etc., and then the second part becomes a nickname in its own right. N-initial nicknames like Ned for Edward and Nan(cy) for Ann probably come from Early Modern English/Middle English "mine Ed" and "mine Ann" being reanalyzed as "my Ned" and "my Nan". —An gr 07:17, 27 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Note that almost all of these use a consonant with lower sonority as the replacement (in most cases, a plosive). I hoped that hypocoristic might discuss this issue, but unfortunately it's one of those pages which is long on random examples and short on sourced discussion. --ColinFine (talk) 18:42, 27 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Plural[edit]

Suppose you are pluralising a (sur)name that ends with a "y" with no vowel before it (such as Brady). Would the plural end with "ys" or "ies"? JCI (talk) 02:20, 26 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

-ys. Kennedys not Kennedies. Berrys, not Berries. Frys, not Fries. -- Fullstop (talk) 02:42, 26 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

It's an odd little exception to the general rules about how to form plurals.

"We had a lovely picnic yesterday. We couldn't help noticing that the Berrys brought along some fries, and the Frys brought some berries. But the Fryberrys spoilt it by bringing guacamole; and to make matters worse, the spooky Guacamole sisters forgot to bring any fryberries". -- JackofOz (talk) 19:10, 26 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I've always wondered about monies instead of moneys. 02:29, 27 March 2009 (UTC)

There are also Grammys and Emmys, not Grammies or Emmies. (I'd love to know who made that decision without consulting me. :) -- JackofOz (talk) 10:45, 27 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

See also Toronto Maple Leafs. -- Wavelength (talk) 14:43, 27 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

See also English plural. -- Wavelength (talk) 14:57, 27 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Define prototheory[edit]

Good day

I am currently studying and this word has come up in my studies however thgere is no definition for it on the web. Please assist. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 123.211.10.166 (talk) 06:06, 26 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

It sounds like a fancy word for a hypothesis, but that's just my guess. I've never encountered that word before, so I may be quite wrong. --Dr Dima (talk) 07:19, 26 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

An idea that is not yet sufficiently developed to become a theory? — Emil J. 11:23, 26 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Dr. Masayoshi = Masayoshi Arai, Mayor of Yaotsu?[edit]

Captions to 1993 documentary photos list a "Dr. Masayoshi" as Mayor of Yaotsu, Japan. Google hits such as this indicate his name is probably Masayoshi Arai, but further searches are inconclusive. Then searching within Wikipedia, I got the impression* that the name "Masayoshi" may be either a surname or first name. My question: for "Masayoshi Arai," which is likely to be his surname? *Based on visual inspection; there's no dab page.-- Deborahjay (talk) 09:34, 26 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

jp:新井 (Arai) is a common Japanese surname.--K.C. Tang (talk) 10:35, 26 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

And Masayoshi is a typical first name that I really can't see as a surname. TomorrowTime (talk) 11:32, 26 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Ah, perhaps it's the name order that confused me? Search in Wikipedia on Masayoshi alone and you'll see what I mean among the various page names. -- Deborahjay (talk) 11:46, 26 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, this can be confusing, since two different orders are used here (see Wikipedia:Manual of Style (Japan-related articles)#Names).--K.C. Tang (talk) 13:42, 26 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

(Edit conflict; revised posting sequence per indents)

Does it mean that the articles on Abe Masayoshi and Satake Masayoshi are wrong in calling their subjects Masayoshi for short, rather than Abe or Satake? — Emil J. 14:16, 26 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I can see that his full name, then, is Masayoshi Arai. One last question: would it be at all likely that in hosting a gathering (e.g. the dedication of a memorial to Yaotsu native son Chiune Sugihara) with local and foreign guests, might he have been addressed as "Dr. Masayoshi" and would this be an informal register? (N.B. With Israeli dignitaries, such a practice is ~~not unknown~~ imaginable though might nonetheless be a faux pas or even breach of protocol...!) -- Deborahjay (talk) 14:12, 26 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Japanese funeral help[edit]

Hello : ) For my art class, I need to make a Japanese funeral banner. Is there anything that is usually written on such a thing? And if not, how would one write something along the lines of "We will miss you forever" in Japanese (the actual Japanese characters would be really useful). Thanks! Evaunit♥666♥ 12:49, 26 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

ご冥福をお祈りします (go meifuku o oinorishimas "[We] pray for the blessing [of the deceased] in afterlife").--K.C. Tang (talk) 14:17, 26 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

That's lovely...but not quite clear to me: that the deceased will be blessed, or will bestow blessings? -- Deborahjay (talk) 14:26, 26 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Since in Japan many people believe in Shinto i think it should be the latter--91.6.11.151 (talk) 15:12, 26 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

See the English translations of 冥福 here（心から）ご冥福をお祈りいたします would be more polite and proper. It's a set phrase used for Buddhists. For Shinto believers and Christians, 心から哀悼の意を捧げます or 謹んで哀悼の意を表します would be used. These are model sentences for a condolatory telegram. Oda Mari (talk) 15:40, 26 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Playing cards together[edit]

This a new expression I have learned in work and I want to know how widely it is used. The meaning of the expression is: being friends

How many of you know it??? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Frenchy74 (talk • contribs) 16:01, 26 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I've heard of it. I doubt it is a 'new' expression (new to you, but not new) given the reference to card-playing which was existed for a long long time (as early at the 9th century seemingly). ny156uk (talk) 18:41, 26 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I think I'm missing something here. "being friends" has nothing to do with cards. It has all to do with, well, being friends. Who then was a gentleman? (talk) 02:31, 27 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Well, in many cultures playing cards is one way of spending time with your friends, so the phrase "we play cards together" has come to signify "we are friends" in English. Frenchy74 wants to know how widespread this usage is. I wasn't aware of it, and apparently nor were you. I was wondering whether this is something that is often used in the negative "well, we don't exactly play cards together ...". I'm asking because there is a similar phrase in my own culture that is only used in the negative: "We've never herded cows together" ... ---Sluzzelin talk 03:18, 27 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Etymologically, companions "eat bread together". [1] -- Wavelength (talk) 05:00, 27 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Sluzzelin, what culture is that? We have the exact same saying in Slovene. TomorrowTime (talk) 07:51, 27 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

In Czech too. — Emil J. 12:43, 27 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Very interesting. An import from Slavic languages? An alpine thing? A common source we're not aware of? I've heard it uttered in certain Swiss German dialects (the "culture" I was referring to), but don't recall ever having heard or read it in Standard German. It isn't said that often though. ---Sluzzelin talk 15:01, 27 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Since Slovenes and Czechs belonged to the Austrian monarchy for quite some time, I think that the Alpine hypothesis is plausible. — Emil J. 15:27, 27 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

What I do know from Standard German is that if you get along well with someone, you can "steal horses well with him", but if you don't, then you "can't eat cherries well with him". (Me, I can't eat cherries well with anyone because cherries make me gag.) —An gr 16:10, 27 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

How about "eating a barrel of salt" with someone? That's what you need to do to become real good friends in Poland. — Kpalion^(talk) 19:36, 29 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Well this is all very interesting, thanks for you posts —Preceding unsigned comment added by Frenchy74 (talk • contribs) 12:11, 27 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry for going off-topic above, Frenchy74. Could you (or ny156uk give an example of its usage? I'm curious, that's all. Thank you. ---Sluzzelin talk 15:01, 27 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

ok, an example would be:

Person 1: "have you heard that X is going move away next month".

Person 2: "no, we don't really play cards together" —Preceding unsigned comment added by Frenchy74 (talk • contribs) 19:42, 29 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]