Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Humanities/2023 June 21

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June 21

When did Europe and Northeast Asia switch to winter wheat?

From spring wheat. Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 00:10, 21 June 2023 (UTC)

Latin has a word for winter wheat, siligo, seen used for example by Pliny here. So perhaps the question as regards Europe is, when did winter wheat become the dominant variety to be cultivated? Possibly, this was a rather gradual process. As to the US, our article Winter wheat states, "Bernhard Warkentin and Mark A. Carleton played a major part in the spread of winter wheat as a commercial crop." Based on the info in the article on Carleton, this would have played out in Kansas in 1901–1919.  --Lambiam 09:55, 21 June 2023 (UTC)

Having driven a corn cart (beginning with a Ford 4000 with a 1-ton trailer, filling up on the go from a New Holland combine) through various harvests in Gloucestershire over a number of years, I would suggest that winter wheat is not a particularly dominant crop round these parts. There's also winter barley, spring barley, and spring wheat, and oilseed rape, for fun and games: and suppose the weather is unkind to a particular crop at a particular time of year, but favours a different plant later on? Only a fool sows one type of crop, because disaster is never far away. MinorProphet (talk) 22:01, 23 June 2023 (UTC)

Well yes wheat won't be the only crop, the US Department of Agriculture map of spring wheat shows very little outside of the few states where it's too cold for winter wheat though, I wonder why (Iowa and Nebraska winters are very cold by Gloucestershire standards but south enough that the wheat is mostly winter. USA produces a lot more corn and soy than wheat though for some reason, only west Kansas seems to grow a lot of wheat (wheat bread and flour is still a lot more popular than corn in North USA). Supposedly potatoes are the highest food (not feed) tons per acre crop which makes me wonder why they aren't grown more. Also do you know which grain is cheapest per pound most often on futures contracts? When I checked long ago it was oats<corn<wheat by volume (approximate volume cause a bushel's no longer a volume in America but a fixed number of pounds, one for corn, a different number for wheat etc, all approximating 1 traditional bushel) Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 23:12, 23 June 2023 (UTC)

IIRC, corn is heavily subsidized in the US. Not sure about soy, but it might be a crop that works well in rotation with corn. -- Avocado (talk) 23:59, 23 June 2023 (UTC)

USA's corn acres beats silver medalist soy by so little and bronze medalist by so much that maybe the two are part of a good rotation. Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 00:30, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

Apparently 77% of soy on the entire planet becomes livestock feed and it rotates well with corn. Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 01:11, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

ENGVAR alert - “corn” means different things in the US and the UK. In the US, corn = maize. In the UK corn is a more generic term which includes several gains (including wheat). Blueboar (talk) 01:15, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

As a kid the British English made me think how the fuck is corn in the Bible? The Pilgrims didn't even know about corn. Also I tried to find "uncircumcised Philistines" again but it was a less olde-timey translation this time and was wondering so many Philistines already, where's the uncircumcised??! Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 02:57, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

I surely went the same although not only looking at the Pilgrims. But I'm not sure that the idea there must have been a switch is set on it's object exactly. Spelt was one of the main pre-wheat cereal grown before a switch to wheat in the early Middle-Ages - and seems to behave well in line with the criteria, automn-sown --Askedonty (talk) 10:21, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

The Spaniards didn't know about corn either, I knew it was unheard of in the Old World till European exploration. Ah I didn't know common wheat was so new in Europe. I would've guessed 4000+ BC. Wiki says spelt is a different species or subspecies from common wheat but as hexaploids still more related to each other than common wheat vs pasta wheat/durum, a tetraploid. The extra 2 ploids boosted cold-hardiness. Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 13:26, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

So regarding hexaploids the wiki (wheat) says they're known to have existed from around 6200 BC. After that the Romans are said to rely on spring wheat merely as a safeguard against a potential bad summer harvest. --Askedonty (talk) 14:30, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

Rhyme scheme notation for Dutch poem

Egidius waer bestu bleven says the rhyme scheme of this poem is "ABA bbaba ABA ababb ABA". Does anyone know if these are masculine and feminine endings or if rhyme scheme needs to add another meaning for mixed uppercase and lowercase? Or if this should just be written as all uppercase, which is standard English Wikipedia style? -- Beland (talk) 06:44, 21 June 2023 (UTC)

It looks like it was meant to denote refrain lines in uppercase and intermediate stanza lines in lowercase. But it seems it got that wrong – for one thing, it misses out the last 2 lines, and in doing so, it misses the fact that these 2 lines, repeated from lines 4-5, are also part of the refrain. It's a Rondeau (forme fixe), and the actual rhyme scheme would then be ABABB aba ABA ababb ABABB (that's slightly different from the form described as the typical French "Rondeau cinquain" described in that article, which is AABBA aab AAB aabba AABBA.) Fut.Perf. ☼ 07:02, 21 June 2023 (UTC)

So the sense is one already described in Rhyme scheme: "lowercase lines merely rhyme; uppercase lines are repeated verbatim."  --Lambiam 09:13, 21 June 2023 (UTC)

Paintings

Enough. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 10:11, 22 June 2023 (UTC)
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
I'm very sorry to ask you the same question, but can you help me to find the real-life models for this cartoon's paintings: (1, 2), (3, 4), 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14? Thank you very much. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.2.59.115 (talk) 11:32, 21 June 2023 (UTC) No, we can't, as you bloody well know, and you really, really, really need to stop asking this kind of stuff. Fut.Perf. ☼ 11:59, 21 June 2023 (UTC) unsigned 87, there is one link called "page information" on the wiki you are linking us to. I noticed that the author of the page features therein. Looking for information regarding the author you will find a "talk" tab which is leading to their talk-page obviously. Most of those talk tabs are still in red, which could mean that they remain to be initiated. I suggest that you might perhaps start your inquiry from there ? --Askedonty (talk) 12:11, 21 June 2023 (UTC) Have you tried writing to the producers of these cartoons? ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 13:27, 21 June 2023 (UTC) Do you also assume that every building that you see in these cartoons is modeled after a specific, real building? If not, why do you assume this about the paintings? --User:Khajidha (talk) (contributions) 13:50, 21 June 2023 (UTC) I have executed a reverse picture search on some of the paintings you show. There are some related art works and two near misses, but these are all modified. #2 is an "almost" copy of a pencil sketch by a Barnaby Edwards of a beach near the village of Llangrannog in Ceredigion, Wales. Possibly this Barnaby Edwards, who is Welsh and has a degree in fine art. --Cookatoo.ergo.ZooM (talk) 13:57, 21 June 2023 (UTC) Seriously, but didn't noone notice the name of that site the IP has been turning upon us https://www.detectiveconanworld.com/wiki/The_Time-Bombed_Skyscraper/Gallery --Askedonty (talk) 14:55, 21 June 2023 (UTC) Ok, but can you search anyway, so it's closed forever? Thank you. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.207.113.102 (talk) 21:43, 21 June 2023 (UTC) No we can't; nobody is interested in your stupid cartoons and your questions are annoying as hell. Stop pestering us about this. Fut.Perf. ☼ 05:42, 22 June 2023 (UTC)

Going backward in age: Age of majority

Where does Wikipedia address the following issue? Imagine that, under law, I would turn 21 years of age at 12:00:00 midnight on June 22, 2023. I live in southern Gulf County, Florida, USA in the Eastern Time Zone. At 12:01:00, I am at home and have become 21 years of age according to that standard. Then, I go to northern Gulf County, Florida, in the Central Time Zone, where I purchase an alcoholic beverage. When I purchase the beer, it's 11:05:00 in that time zone, and 12:05:00 in the time zone where I turned 21 years old. Then I returned to my home in southern Gulf County at 12:10:00. Have I broken the law for purchase of a beverage underage? Was I 21, then 20, and then 21 again? Can you "lose age"? Have I discovered the Fountain of Youth? What happens if I died in a car crash at 11:07:00 on my way back to my home (while still in Central Time Zone)- won't the death certificate say I was 20 when I died, even though I did make it to 21 for a few minutes when I was at home? So didn't I go backward in age? And if this isn't addressed on Wikipedia, where would be it appropriate to address this? --Geographyinitiative (talk) 15:39, 21 June 2023 (UTC)

We can't give legal advice. Some articles that might cover this topic are Legal_drinking_age and List_of_alcohol_laws_of_the_United_States. In my experience, it is the person's age at point of purchase that matters, so in your example you would not be able to purchase the alcohol, but I am not conversant on the laws of Florida. RudolfRed (talk) 15:51, 21 June 2023 (UTC)

Your age is based on the time zone where you ARE, not the one where you are REGISTERED.--User:Khajidha (talk) (contributions) 15:52, 21 June 2023 (UTC)

Thanks for the replies. My focus was not on alcohol itself, but the general issue of the age of majority, using a hypothetical. I did find some commentary on the issue here: [1]. There seems to be nowhere on Wikipedia addressing this issue. According to a quote in that article "time is a local phenomenon", so seems to me that you can reduce your age by crossing a time zone border.
A younger twin can be 21 and the other older twin 20 at the same time- June 22, 2023 12:10:00 Eastern (location of the younger twin), 11:10:00 Central (location of the older twin). Geographyinitiative (talk) 16:00, 21 June 2023 (UTC)

These are not scientific measures of your age; they're convenient approximations of your age. What you're saying is true, but I don't understand why you think this is odd, or why you think WP should "address this issue", or what you even mean by "where would it be appropriate to address this". --Floquenbeam (talk) 16:34, 21 June 2023 (UTC)

Thanks for your reply. Yes, it is not a scientific measure of age and it is merely a conveient approximation, of course. Applying the logic above, there would be no reason to address East Asian age reckoning on Wikipedia, since it is merely socio-cultural rather than scientific measure of age. Yes, indeed, this is clearly something that can and must be covered somewhere on Wikipedia if the sources exist for it- on some page that addresses questions of socio-cultural measures of age like age of majority. I have done so here: [2]. I hope you all will follow up on this if you are interested. Geographyinitiative (talk) 16:42, 21 June 2023 (UTC)

Ah, I see, you're not asking a question, you're telling us that you're clever. Ok, thanks for the info? Floquenbeam (talk) 16:45, 21 June 2023 (UTC)

@Geographyinitiative: Are you looking for this ? It's regarding the U.S. but I doubt that you will find any serious source detailing all possible local variations from all today remaining exotic places. There may be an initiative produced paper from some entity associated with the United Nations perhaps. --Askedonty (talk) 20:35, 21 June 2023 (UTC)

Here a correct framing of the question you're considering, for common law areas, keyword: capacity. "The exact day on which the disability of minority vanishes also varies. The old common-law rule put it on the day before the twenty-first birthday. Many states have changed this rule so that majority commences on the day of the eighteenth birthday." (This is in reference to the edit you're linking to) --Askedonty (talk) 20:55, 21 June 2023 (UTC)

Regarding the effects of your date of birth on your relationship with judicial punishment, if I remember well where the Police are concerned, the local date will be compared with that date in order to determine your age. Very probably however, after some time so in later contexts an accurate number of days might be extrapolated from your place of birth in order to determine an undisputable classification of your possible capacities or disabilities. --Askedonty (talk) 22:22, 21 June 2023 (UTC)

Xkcd has a cartoon kind of about this: see here... -- AnonMoos (talk) 20:56, 21 June 2023 (UTC)

Violence in airplane over the ocean

Let's say I break the law in an aircraft that's over the open ocean. Under which laws do I get tried: the country of the aircraft's registration, or the country of my citizenship or residence, or some other country? I assume the principles are related to admiralty law, in which (I think) the flag of the ship is relevant, but I'm not sure. In this incident, an aircraft belonging to Condor (from Germany) diverted to the Açores after a fight broke out over the Atlantic. The passengers in question were arrested by Portuguese police once the aircraft landed, but that would be the only option since other countries don't have police forces in Portugal, so it doesn't answer my question. Nyttend (talk) 23:44, 21 June 2023 (UTC)

I'm not sure that's entirely correct. See e.g. [3] which explains why it can get complicated. While I'm not sure how trust worthy Simple Flying is, they do cite the various conventions that come into play in particular the Tokyo Convention and the Convention for the Suppression of Unlawful Acts against the Safety of Civil Aviation. Note that while these conventions are specifically relating to the safety of persons or property including the aircraft themselves, I assume they'd pretty much apply to any act of violence onboard an aircraft (as well as some other things) given the risks of any violence on board. They also cite Lexology [4] which has additional details from a US and UK perspective relating to gambling. (Your question is ambigious a the actual text only refers to breaking the law, but the title specifically refers to violence. It's like you can break the law without violence in most countries including on airplanes.) Nil Einne (talk) 07:21, 22 June 2023 (UTC)

It is basically up to the captain to make the determination that unruly behaviour is likely to endanger the safety of the flight, in which case the Convention for the Suppression of Unlawful Acts against the Safety of Civil Aviation applies. This gives the country of landing an obligation to take them into custody. If the country of landing does not extradite the offender to the country of registration (which does have jurisdiction to prosecute), they are obligated to submit the issue to their own prosecutorial authorities.  --Lambiam 09:15, 22 June 2023 (UTC)

(edit conflict) The OP mentioned in passing maritime law. As a vessel enters foreign waters she should fly the courtesy flag of the country whose waters she is in. By doing so she acknowledges that she is subject to the maritime law of the foreign country, rather than that of her flag state. The courtesy flag should also be flown in inland waters where a national ensign is worn. The law regarding warships is slightly different, they still fly the courtesy flag, but as a token of friendship and non-belligerent status. Martin of Sheffield (talk) 09:29, 22 June 2023 (UTC)

The passengers in any vessel on the high seas are subject to the law of the country where the vessel is registered (the Titan submersible was not registered because it operated only on the high seas) - it's not a free-for-all once you leave territorial waters (it might be interesting to research how the law affects pirate vessels). Some crimes are so serious that the authorities of the country may prosecute if one of their nationals commits such a crime anywhere. Kudos to the OP for describing the region by its real name (Açores as opposed to Azores). Let's see more of that (e.g. Bragança rather than Braganza, Moçambique rather than Mozambique, and Olivença rather than Olivenza. The authorities there were told to hand it back by the Treaty of Vienna in 1815, but all they have done is prohibit the children in local schools learning Portuguese (you may have guessed that the word Espanhol is a derogatory term in Portugal). Brazil is so called because that was it's original name. 79.73.135.77 (talk) 09:56, 22 June 2023 (UTC)

So should we use the "real name" and write Deutschland instead of Germany, Shqipëria instead of Albania, and საქართველო instead of Georgia?  --Lambiam 21:33, 22 June 2023 (UTC)

And non-English speaking countries should stop translating the names of the United States and United Kingdom, right?--User:Khajidha (talk) (contributions) 22:57, 23 June 2023 (UTC)

I referred to Portuguese police as a way of acknowledging that I knew about the initial law-enforcement involvement, but also to prevent someone saying "you forgot that the Portuguese are handling it". I'm interested in the state that would try the case, not in who would do the arresting; obviously you'd be arrested and initially confined by the police of whatever state your aircraft landed in. Thank you to Lambiam for confirming that the country of registration has jurisdiction. Nyttend (talk) 02:35, 24 June 2023 (UTC)