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Thomas Francis Meagher

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This peer review discussion has been closed.
I've listed this article for peer review because I am looking for a copy-edit and general readability of the article. I have been looking at it off & on for a couple months and I think I need other eyes to see it. Subsequently, I plan to nominate it for GA. Any suggestions to further refine & improve this article are appreciated.

Thanks, Mitico (talk) 18:18, 6 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]


  • I did a little work to it before seeing this request. As I put on its talk, the page needs more info for his CW performance. One of those pronunciation links should be added (a topic also on the talk, his name should sound like M-A-W-W-Y-E-R or so), and I think the intro needs some attention, like a briefer summary and some of it added to the main body. Kresock (talk) 03:24, 8 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Kresock - I think I have addressed CW performance & pronunciation. I have also tweaked the lead, and was wondering if there was anything else in the lead that could/should be moved to the main body. As it currently reads, I think the only thing I would consider moving would be the "rose to the rank of brigadier general" Thanks. Mitico (talk) 18:28, 11 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]


Brianboulton comments: I have done some general copyedits in the article, and will now prepare some general review comments. Here are some general remarks on the lead and first three sections. The rest will have to wait until tomorrow. As a general comment on the article as a whole, I'd say it is already fairly close to GA standard, and with a little polishing and tweaks, should get there without too much difficulty.

  • Lead
    • "Due to public outcry..." I can't find any mention of this in the main text, where no reason is given for the reprieve.
  • I have moved the "public outcry" from the lead and included in the final paragraph of the "Young Ireland". I have also included the international pressures (that I sort-of lumped in with the outcry) and cited in the article. -Mitico (talk) 18:22, 11 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • "Once in the United States he joined the US Army" - is misleading. It implies he joined the army immediately on arrival in the US, when in fact it was nine years later. He did other things during this period, and these should be briefly mentioned in the lead (which is not just an "introduction" but a summary of the article's significant content).
  • Agree completely. I have reworded to say: "Once in the United States, he studied law, pursued journalism, and travelled presenting lectures. At the commencement of the American Civil War ...." which I think is clearer. -Mitico (talk) 18:22, 11 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • "In 1867 Meagher drowned in the Missouri River" is a bit too curt and uninformative. It should say something like: "In 1867, in unexplained circumstances, Meaher drowned in the Missouri River after falling from a steamboat".
  • I like this a lot, and have added it. -Mitico (talk) 18:22, 11 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Family
    • The second para needs more clarity (not easy, when everyone in it is called Thomas Meagher!) My best shot, which you are welcome to use or discard, is: "His father, also Thomas Meagher (1796-1874), was a Member of Parliament for Waterford, and the first Roman Catholic Lord Mayor for over 200 years. He had been born in St John's, Newfoundland, to yet another Thomas Meagher (1763-1837), a merchant, and to Mary, née Crotty."
  • I added this as suggested, and will consider even more refinement. I agree that it is not easy, but your wording is clearer than the previous -Mitico (talk) 18:22, 11 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • However you reword the para, it should be combined with the first short para to make a single entity.
  • Early Life
    • "...the county of Kildare". The correct form is "County Kildare" (all Irish counties are referred to thus).
    • Hash signs are not used in UK or Ireland in addresses. It should be "No. 33".
  • Okay. I was even thinking about removing the "33" but it seems to be an important fact in my reading. I have the feeling that the address is an identifiable/historical item - so I decided to include it. -Mitico (talk) 18:22, 11 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • As indicated in my lead comments, you need to explain the circumstances of Meagher's reprieve.Also, please check carefully with your sources that sentences of "hung, drawn and quartered" were still being handed out in Britain as late as 1848. It doesn't seem likely.
  • I think I have addressed the reprieve. Do you think I should expand even more? -Mitico (talk) 18:22, 11 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Regarding the sentence of hanged, drawn and quartered: there are many sources that say the same, but here is one: [1]
  • Does seems late (historically to me too). Sometimes I am amazed at things that seems like "ancient history" are truly just a few generations back. -Mitico (talk) 18:22, 11 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Van Diemens Land
    • It would be useful to know something of his first wife's background/circumstances. For example, who was Bryan Bennett>
  • In fact, I am not sure how relevant Bryan Bennett was. He was a farmer who was also exiled as a convict to Tasmania. I have expanded slightly about Katherine. -Mitico (talk) 18:22, 11 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • You should not refer to his wife as "Bennett", which you do twice in the text. It wasn't her name once she married, and it sounds totally inappropriate in both circumstances. I suggest you call her "Katherine".

More tomorrow. Brianboulton (talk) 23:24, 10 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

(Later) Could I have some feedback on above, before continuing the review? Brianboulton (talk) 17:06, 11 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Thanks for the detailed review. I hope my replies above make sense. I have also expanded the Civil War section to include at least some details for each battle. Also, I have added an IPA pronunciation - which I think I have done properly , but am not 100% sure. Mitico (talk) 18:22, 11 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • I knew some people in Ireland called Meagher, a few years back (they claimed to be related to TFM but I didn't believe them). They pronounced their name to rhyme with "bar" ("Maher", pronounced the same way, is apparently an alternative spelling), so I reckon your pronunciation is spot on. I'll get on with the review. Brianboulton (talk) 22:25, 11 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Arrival in US
    • "Citizen", as the name of a magazine, should be in italics, not quotes
  • Okay
    • "pseudo" is a slightly loaded word, with negative connotations. I'd change it to "simulated".
  • Okay
    • "breakout of Am. Civil War? Surely, should be "outbreak"?
  • Okay
  • Civil War
    • "He began presenting lectures in support of the Union effort..." - an odd sentence. You don't "present" lectures, and anyway, isn't this a rather feeble thing for a fighting man to do? I'd delete these words, and begin the sentence: "He raised..."
  • Change the sentence to read: "He raised support for the Union's effort and he recruited a full company of infantrymen"-Mitico (talk) 14:06, 12 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • "Aggression" should be toned down to "action", to be strictly NPOV.
    • Link the para beginning "He also began recruiting" to previous para.
    • "Meagher served in the Union Army as a US citizen". When did he get citizenship - this hasn't been mentioned in the article before?
  • I moved the mention of his US citizenship to the Arrival section. I am having troubles pinning down a date in which he was given his "certificate of citizenship". But it was within five years of arriving in the U.S., because there are some accounts that he received citizenship sooner than the 5 years required by law at the time. -Mitico (talk) 14:06, 12 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • Why have the "Fighting 69th" become the Irish Zouaves - or is this some other people?
  • Same people. They were sometimes referred to as the Irish Zouaves because of their uniforms. I'll remove the Zouave reference in order to be consistent. Mitico (talk) 14:06, 12 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • "led an attack against the sunken road" - doesn't sound right. "led an attack along a sunken road"?
  • I think this should be capitalized as "Sunken Road" as I think that it was named by the area farmers who utilized it. It was a sunken road that was called Sunken Road. Does that make sense? I have changed to "Sunken Road".-Mitico (talk) 14:06, 12 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • hyphens in the text need to become ndashes or mdashes
  • I used an ndash on mid May 1862. I think this is correct, otherwise the dashes indicated pauses so I used the mdash. -Mitico (talk) 14:06, 12 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • "hit with a cannonball in the leg" is clumsy. "hit in the leg by a cannonball" would be better.
    • "Meagher resigned in May 1863" - suggest "Meagher resigned from the Army in May 1863"
  • I change to this, but am unsure if having the word Army twice sounds right. -Mitico (talk) 14:06, 12 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Last two paras tomorrow Brianboulton (talk) 23:12, 11 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Here's the rest

  • Territorial governorship
    • "signing a sentence reprieve for" could be simplified to "reprieved"
    • "a campaign against the natives..." Can a better word than "natives" be used?
  • I updated to say Native Americans. I could be more specific and say Crow but I think being general at this point is okay. Mitico (talk) 20:15, 12 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • "...the territory did not garner enough support..." Moe explanation needed. Whose support was necessary, how was it scertained, etc.
  • I expanded a bit to explain. Hopefully it is clearer. At this time, it didn't seem like Montana really had it together to become a state. Mitico (talk) 20:15, 12 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Disappearance & legacy
    • I think it's a bad idea to have the lengthy inscription within a footnote. It actually makes a fine tailpiece to the article, so I have incorporated it into the text. If you don't like the way I've done this, by all means do it differently, but I would advise against the footnote option.
  • I like the way it finishes off the article. I think it works great. It is a nice summary, but I wasn't sure about its placement.
  • References
    • [1] needs to be more informative. Link "brevet" to brevet (military). Also, expand "at times" to "at various times" or, if you prefer, "from time to time".
    • [14] needs an accessdate, not an ISBN
    • [22] needs an accessdate. Also, the publishers are Oxford University Press, not Oxford University.
    • [28]accessdate required
    • [31]ISBN not required
  • Okay I think I fixed all of these. Mitico (talk) 20:15, 12 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Categories: The article is wildly overcategorised, and you have some very odd ones: "Irish soldiers", "UK MP's 47-52", "UK MPs 52-57", "Disappeared people". None of these seems appropriate. I'd reduce the list by about 50%
  • I gave it a go. You were right, I got it down to about 50% - well 54%. Mitico (talk) 20:15, 12 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Overall: As I said at the start, this article was close to GA standard then. With the various improvements during this review, I am confident that it will be promoted, should you nominate it. Brianboulton (talk) 18:54, 12 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • I am really impressed with the amount of detail that you went into reviewing this article. The article is significantly better because of this review. I will keep you abreast as it moves through GA. I really appreciate your effort. I have a final question about the See also & External links section. I am not sure the best way to handle, but currently it seems a little odd to have just the wikicommons & wikisource in the external links. I am inclined to move these wiki items into the see also or back to the references section but I am not sure if there is an MOS issue. Thanks again. Mitico (talk) 20:15, 12 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
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