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Noël Coward

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This peer review discussion has been closed.
I've listed this article for peer review because it's just passed a GA review and I'd like pointers on how to take it further - coverage, balance, tone, sins of commission and omission etc.

Thanks, Tim riley (talk) 19:28, 22 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Finetooth comments: I'm just starting a first read-through, checking images and image licenses. I don't doubt that most of the free-use images are in the public domain; however, in each case this needs to be verifiable by image reviewers. Wikipedia requires all images to have three pieces of information: a copyright tag, a verifiable source, and an image summary. The free-use images in this article have copyright tags and incomplete image summaries that do not include verifiable sources. Image:Coward1919.jpg, for example, is probably a scan by User:Tim riley, but a scan from what source? The summary should include a line saying something like "Scanned by User:Tim riley from X (including the title, author, publisher, date of publication, and place of publication of X). Ditto for Image:Coward 1914.jpg. Ditto for Image:Coward Hawtrey 1911.jpg. Ditto for Image:Mrs astley cooper.jpg. Ditto for Image:Coward pestle.jpg. Ditto for Image:Coward as Slightly.jpg. A good explanation by User:Elcobbola of these requirements and attendant complexities appears at Wikipedia:Wikipedia Signpost/2008-08-11/Dispatches.

User:Otto4711 raised an issue during the GA review about another image, Image:Noel Coward 2008.jpg, which I don't believe has been resolved. The problem is that in the United States, where Wikipedia is published, there is no "freedom of panorama" that applies to sculptures. This means that unless the author and uploader, Rodin777, of the photograph is the same person as the sculptor, he or she does not hold the copyright to the sculpture itself and cannot license a photograph (a derivative work) of it with a CC or GFDL tag.

I raise these issues now because it's much better to deal with them here and not take them to FAC. Finetooth (talk) 20:34, 26 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you very much for this; I'll add the necessary extra info. On the additional point about the sculpture it was the sculptor who photographed and uploaded the picture of his own work, and I think the original posting to Commons makes that clear. Tim riley (talk) 21:00, 26 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]
With respect, it's not clear to me or to the editor who tagged the image at the Commons. The image summary says that Victor Heyfron created the sculpture in 1968. The file history shows that Rodin777 uploaded the image on 10 February 2009. This makes it seem likely to me that they are different people. Rodin777 is not a registered user, which makes it difficult to ask him or her for more information. Finetooth (talk) 00:07, 27 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Further Finetooth comments: This is an excellent article, and I think it should do well at FAC once the image questions are resolved and a few more bits are polished. Here are a few suggestions about minor prose and style issues.

Biography

  • "Coward was born in Teddington, England, to Arthur Sabin Coward (1856–1937)... " - Suggestion: "Coward was born in 1898 in Teddington, England, to Arthur Sabin Coward (1856–1937)... ". His birth date appears in the infobox but not in the lead. Including it here will make "had died" in the second sentence more meaningful.
Done Tim riley (talk) 12:27, 7 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Interwar successes

  • "1925 also saw the première of the first of Coward's plays to... " - Since years don't see, and to avoid starting a sentence with digits, maybe something like this would be better: "Hay Fever, the first of Coward's plays to gain an enduring place in the mainstream theatrical repertoire, also appeared in 1925. It was a comedy about four egocentric members of an artistic family who casually invite acquaintances to their country house for the weekend and bemuse and enrage each other's guests."
Done Tim riley (talk) 12:27, 7 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Coward again partnered Lawrence in Tonight at 8:30 (1936)" - Should that be "partnered with"?
US/UK variance, I think. I've rewritten to avoid the issue.
  • "HMV"- Perhaps better spelled out also, thus: His Master's Voice (HMV)
Done Tim riley (talk) 12:27, 7 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

World War II

  • "especially his trips to America to sway opinion there" - Suggestion: "especially for his trips to America to sway opinion there... " Also, it's not clear to me what sort of opinion he was trying to sway? Opinion about his plays and other work or political opinion about aspects of the war?
Redrafted accordingly Tim riley (talk) 12:27, 7 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Post-war career

  • "Coward continued writing in the 1950s and 60s, producing the musicals After the Ball (1953, the last musical he debuted in the West End; his last three musicals premiered on Broadway), Sail Away (1959, Coward's most successful late musical) and The Girl Who Came to Supper (1963)." - Suggestion: Split this sentence up to eliminate the parentheticals.
Done Tim riley (talk) 12:27, 7 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Coward's final stage success was Suite in Three Keys (1966), a trilogy set in a hotel penthouse suite, with him taking the lead roles in all three plays." - Noun plus "ing". Suggestion: "Coward's final stage success came with Suite in Three Keys (1966), a trilogy set in a hotel penthouse suite. He played the lead in all three plays."
Done Tim riley (talk) 12:27, 7 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • "The mid-1960s to early 1970s saw a revival in Coward's popularity, with several new productions of his 1920s plays and a number of revues celebrating his music, including Oh, Coward! on Broadway and Cowardy Custard in London, both in 1972." - Suggestion: "Revues celebrating his music and several new productions of his 1920s plays, including Oh, Coward! on Broadway and Cowardy Custard in London, both in 1972, revived Coward's popularity in the mid-1960s and early 1970s".
Done Tim riley (talk) 12:27, 7 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Poster caption

  • "Al Hirschfeld's drawing of Coward is featured in this poster rather than the stars of this 1968 revival." - Suggestion: "The poster features Al Hirschfeld's drawing of Coward rather than the stars of this 1968 revival."
Done Tim riley (talk) 12:27, 7 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Notes

  • Page ranges need an en dash rather than a hyphen.
Done Tim riley (talk) 12:27, 7 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I hope these suggestions prove helpful. If so, please consider reviewing another article, especially one from the PR backlog. That is where I found this one. Finetooth (talk) 00:07, 27 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Brianboulton comments: Here are some prose comments on the first few sections. I was a bit late getting to this, so I apologise if I am repeating other reviewers' comments. I will try and review the remaining sections a little later. This is in general an excellent article and, as you will see, my points tend to be fairly minor in nature.

  • Lead
    • I find the first sentence a liitle awkward to read; I think it's the rapid reptition of "lifestyle" and "style". I offer: "... known for his witty remarks and for a flamboyant lifestyle which Time magazine called "a combination of cheek and chic, pose and poise" as a possible alternative.
Redrafted to take account of the above Tim riley (talk) 12:27, 7 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
    • "As a teenager he was introduced into high society circles..." There was presumably some reason for this, other than his making an early stage debut.
I've left this, as it is explained in the body of the article but would, me judice, unbalance the Lead if introduced there. Tim riley (talk) 12:27, 7 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
    • My own prefernce would be for "twenties" rather than "20s"
Done Tim riley (talk) 12:27, 7 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
    • "...some of his works, such as [list] have entered the regular repertoire" doesn't, in my view, quite do justice to Coward; it makes him sound a bit ordinary. I would suggest: "many of his works, such as [list] have remained in the regular theatrical repertoire."
Done Tim riley (talk) 12:27, 7 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Early years
    • Veitch should be described as "a captain", rather than just "captain". Purists might argue that if his rank was Captain, then it should be capitalised, but naval etiquette is not my area of expertise.
Done Tim riley (talk) 12:27, 7 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
    • "Coward", not "he", was the second of their three sons
Done Tim riley (talk) 12:27, 7 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
    • Nit-picking, but "at age 11 in January 1911" doesn't look or sound good. My choice would be to delete the non-literary "at age 11", since this was established only a moment ago during the lead. The prose flows better without it.
Done Tim riley (talk) 12:27, 7 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
    • "...Hawtrey. Hawtrey..." should be avoided if possible. Not many people will recognise Hawtrey without the link; you could therefore add to the first sentence: "...Hawtrey, the leading theatrical actor-manager" or some such description.
Done Tim riley (talk) 12:27, 7 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
    • I'm getting a bit confused by the chronology. Coward appears in The Goldfish in January 1911. "The following year" (i.e. 1912) he appears in An Autumn Idyll and A Little Fowl Play. Then Hawtrey casts him in a children's play in 1911 and 12. Can the sequence of his early appearances be clarified?
Done (I hope) Tim riley (talk) 12:27, 7 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
    • Nitpicking again, but (penult. para.) 1916 can't really be said to be the "early years" of WWI
    • The statement regarding his drafting and discharge from the Artists' Rifles should be specifically cited. Do we know the nature of his "ill-health"?
Both dealt with accordingly Tim riley (talk) 12:27, 7 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Inter-war successes
    • I think that Ervine's comments on The Better Half should precede the information about the play being lost then found.
Done Tim riley (talk) 12:27, 7 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
    • Comma usage: to some extent this is a matter of choice, but I would prefer to see the commas after "The following year" and "Later in 1921" deleted, and that after "In 1924" moved to afte "playwright". The present positionings seem to disturb the prose flow.
Done Tim riley (talk) 12:27, 7 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
    • Fourth para: repeated "ings" in the first line (finding, stimulating, absorbing). Some slight rewording would resolve this. "Later in 1921 Coward made his first trip to America, where he found the Broadway theatre stimulating. He absorbed its smartness and pace into his own work, which brought him his first real success as a playwright with The Young Idea, which opened in London in 1923 after a provincial tour."
Done Tim riley (talk) 12:27, 7 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
    • A further redundant comma: "In 1925, he premiered..."
Done Tim riley (talk) 12:27, 7 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
    • Who made the "more dazzling achievement" quote?
Added to text Tim riley (talk) 12:27, 7 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
    • It would be good to have a modern equivalent for £50,000 in 1929. MeasuringWorth.com suggests a figure of over £2 million on an RPI basis. Also, is "author" the best description of Coward?
    • "requiring a huge cast..." etc. Should be "which required" if this is referring to Cavalcade.
Added note with current £value. Changed "author"to "writer". Other change made as suggested. Tim riley (talk) 12:27, 7 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
    • The last sentence of the penultimate paragraph, dealing with song recordings, seems separate from the rest of the paragraph and also contains no date information. It might be worth expanding it a little, then swapping its position with the present final short paragraph.
Done Tim riley (talk) 12:27, 7 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I will come back later to the remaining sections. Brianboulton (talk) 14:58, 27 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Very much obliged for these pointers. Thank you both so much. Shall go and attend to them. (And will take the point about doing my bit in reviewing others' efforts.) Tim riley (talk) 15:25, 28 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Some more stuff

  • War
    • I'm intrigued that of all the people on the Nazi blacklist you should select H.G. Wells! Unless there is a specific reason for choosing Wells (and this should be explained), I think you should add a few more examples: Virginia Woolf, Paul Robeson and Bertrand Russell might be high-profile enough.
Done Tim riley (talk) 12:27, 7 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
    • "...In Which We Serve, for which he served as..." – the double repetition "which" and "serve" really jars. To avoid it you could reconstruct the sentence: "Another of Coward's wartime projects, as writer, star, composer and co-director (alongside David Lean), was the naval film drama In Which We Serve."
Done (A little sad at blitzing my double serving of "serve", which I rather liked) Tim riley (talk) 12:27, 7 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
    • I think there is one too many "Cowards" in the section; the last could be converted to "he".
  • Post-war career
Done Tim riley (talk) 12:27, 7 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
    • "a hit live recording" - "hit" is slangy. "...a successful live recording"?
Rewritten accordingly Tim riley (talk) 12:27, 7 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
    • "Sail Away", in 1959, was Coward's most successful late musical. Needs a citation
Done Tim riley (talk) 12:27, 7 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
    • His last three musicals premiered on Broadway – but you name only two.
Ahem! Thank you! There were only two. Duly adjusted.Tim riley (talk) 12:27, 7 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
    • "Only two of the plays were performed in New York" - it needs to be made clear that this refers to the Suite in Three Keys trilogy. I suggest "Only two of the "Three Keys" plays were performed in New York" or something similar.
Done Tim riley (talk) 12:27, 7 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
    • The "Stage and film opportunities he turned down" sentence needs some attention. I suggest: "Stage and film opportunities he turned down in the 1950s included a musical of Pygmalion (two years before My Fair Lady was written), the part of the king in the original stage production of The King and I, and playing Colonel Nicholson in the film The Bridge on the River Kwai.
Recast accordingly Tim riley (talk) 12:27, 7 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
    • Could you give a date for Dr No?
Done Tim riley (talk) 12:27, 7 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
    • What is the significance of the "hanging beside Forster" remark? Is this related to his portrait in a gallery? Clarification would be welcome.
removed "hanging" leaving the sense of the quote unharmed, I think Tim riley (talk) 12:27, 7 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Last years and honours: inappropriate section title, it's not about his last years. He dies in the second line. Is there any information about what he did after retiring from acting? If nothing significant I suggest a change of section title: "Death and honours"
Done Tim riley (talk) 12:27, 7 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Ill finish off later. Brianboulton (talk) 16:44, 1 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

My final bits

  • Personal life
    • Who said Tynan was "sailing close to the wind"? It looks POV at he moment.
I thought it was plain that Tynan's last sentence sailed close to the wind, practically outing Coward, but I have rewritten. Tim riley (talk) 12:27, 7 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
    • "Coward left the UK..." I think this should be United Kingdom, or Britain, but not "UK". And it requires a source.
Done Tim riley (talk) 12:27, 7 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
    • There's a lot of diverse information in this paragraph, only one citation to a single page of Payn & Morley. Is everything covered on that page?
Done. And some peripheral stuff about the Flemings removed on reflection Tim riley (talk) 12:27, 7 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
    • The Papers of Noel Coward..." Remove capital in "papers"
Done Tim riley (talk) 12:27, 7 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Critical reputation and legacy
    • Rather too many ideas jumbled together in the first paragraph. Suggest reorganise.
Done Tim riley (talk) 12:27, 7 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
    • I have heard of Coward being referred to as "the Master". Was Mountbatten's tribute the first time this term was used? If so it might be worth saying so. If not, is it possible to establish when the term was adopted?
Done: note added Tim riley (talk) 12:27, 7 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
    • I think the list of actors/performers in the penultimate paragraph is a bit excessive. Also, was it at the 1999 symposium that Tim Rice made his comment about Coward's songs? This should be made clear.
Both done Tim riley (talk) 12:27, 7 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
    • The last paragraph almost (in my view) descends to trivia. I am not sure that everything you mention can properly be listed as part of Coward's "critical reputation and legacy". It might be worth reconsidering the content, summarising the popular culture stuff into a single brief sentence.
Done Tim riley (talk) 12:27, 7 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

My review stops with the prose, as I can't really advise about other aspects. It looks to me a thorough, comprehensive article that needs just the final level of attention before going to FAC with every chance of success. I will certainly look for it there. Brianboulton (talk) 22:48, 5 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Enormously obliged for all the helpful points made above. Thank you both very much. Tim riley (talk) 12:27, 7 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Yet more Finetooth comments: I'm hard pressed to find anything to grumble about. Here are a few more trifles:

Interwar success

  • "He absorbed its smartness and pace into his own work, which brought him his first real success as a playwright with The Young Idea, which opened in London in 1923, after a provincial tour, with Coward in one of the leading roles." - This one might be too complex. I'd suggest breaking after "The Young Idea", and starting the next sentence with "The play opened... ".

Post-war career"

  • "The daring piece earned Coward new critical praise.[70][61] - The reference order here should be reversed so that [61] precedes [70].

Personal life

  • "In the 1950s, Coward left the UK for tax reasons, receiving harsh criticism in the press.[95][61]" - The reference order here should be reversed so that [61] precedes [95].

Further reading

  • The last ISBN seems to be missing one digit.

I consider this article to be a strong candidate for FA. Please let me know when you nominate. Finetooth (talk) 03:43, 10 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

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