Wikipedia:Featured list candidates/Major League Baseball Rookie of the Year Award/archive2

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The following is an archived discussion of a featured list nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured list candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The list was promoted by The Rambling Man 15:36, 26 September 2009 [1].

Major League Baseball Rookie of the Year Award[edit]

Nominator(s): Staxringold talkcontribs 19:28, 10 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
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After heavy clean-up and ref from the old, pretty good version I feel this list meets all the criteria. Notifying previous nominator, although user appears to have retired/gone on Wikibreak. I have one style question for you FLC folks to decide. I have the 7 winners of the local award by the Chicago BBWAA (from the Vaas source article). However those awards are NOT listed on the official MLB website list, so I have not included them (since the award wasn't really in it's "real" form yet). That ok with everyone? Staxringold talkcontribs 19:28, 10 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I think it's pretty well established that Jackie Robinson was the first winner of the award in its current form, so it's good the way it is IMHO. KV5 (Talk • Phils) 19:54, 10 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Resolved comments from Torsodog

Table Comments --TorsodogTalk 21:48, 10 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

  • I'm not a huge fan of setting the width of the tables. There is far too much empty space in a lot of those cells.
  • The reason I set them is some people really prefer when all tables are the same size. I'll shrink them at least to kill some whitespace. Staxringold talkcontribs 21:57, 10 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Have you thought of adding in relevant batting and pitching statistics? (See: Cy Young Award and NPB MVP Award) This would remove the empty right-hand space when you removed the set table width and I think stats would add a lot to the list.
  • I understand the desire, the issue is a mix of hitters and pitchers (so the table would be messy) and you run into the classic "What stats" question. One might say Triple Crown numbers, and that works generally, but for example would miss why Maury Wills won the 1961 NL MVP over Willie Mays (stolen bases). That's the MVP award, but you get my point. It's a breadth of data that would be difficult/messy to chart and would be difficult to pick what to list. Staxringold talkcontribs 21:57, 10 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • I just created the NPB MVP Award list with both pitching and batting stats, and I don't think the list looks all that messy. Personally, I think the list would benefit by having stats such as RBIs, batting average for position players and ERA, record and saves for pitchers. I guess we can see what others think about this proposal though. --TorsodogTalk 22:06, 10 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Awesome, thanks. Couple more comments:

  • Is there a reason only "Year" is bolded in the key and the rest of the column is not? I think the entire column should be in bold.
  • That's because it's a header in the table; since it's displayed in bold, it has to be keyed in bold. The other info is not contained in a table header and is not displayed bold in the table, so it's not keyed as such. KV5 (Talk • Phils) 15:39, 15 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • What he said. Staxringold talkcontribs 15:46, 15 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Relevant information in captions, such as player names, should be wiki-linked. --TorsodogTalk 15:34, 15 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Support - Nice work here! You added and fixed quite a bit as a result of this FLC, and you did it all very quickly. Pretty impressive stuff! --TorsodogTalk 20:00, 17 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Resolved comments from KV5
Initial comments from KV5
  • Not a big fan of the year links in prose; the "year in baseball" links provide less context than the MLB season links in the table. I would remove them.
  • Since "Year" and "Player" are headers in the table, they should be bold in the key.
  • Don't superscript asterisks; they are superscript by their nature.
  • Now that there are stats, the table doesn't seem to be wide enough. Especially considering that a lot of teams are how on two lines.
  • Would like to see more images. At the very least, there should be equal numbers of images for the NL and AL tables.
  • References: Baseball-Reference is not a publisher. It's a work (should be Baseball-Reference.com). "Sports Reference LLC" is the publisher.
  • Titles for the Baseball-Reference references are wrong. The correct titles, according to B-Ref, is "[xxx player name] Statistics and History".
  • MLB.com is a work, but this would be better changed to have Major League Baseball as the publisher (both are not needed), since MLB.com used to be occupied by other companies.
  • In current reference 9, make the publisher "ESPN", add the parameter |agency=Associated Press instead of having them as a work, and change to the "cite news" template, instead of "cite web". Same for all other refs using AP.

I have more comments, but no time to add them at the moment because I have to go to a performance. Perhaps more later tonight, or perhaps tomorrow. KV5 (Talk • Phils) 21:13, 13 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Further comments from KV5
  • "by the Chicago chapter of the BBWAA" - comma after BBWAA
  • "who selected a rookie of the year" - I think that's probably obvious from the name of the award; is there a less redundant way to say it?
  • "with Jackie Robinson, Brooklyn Dodgers first baseman," - should be either with Jackie Robinson, the Brooklyn Dodgers' first baseman, or with Jackie Robinson, the first baseman for the Brooklyn Dodgers,
  • "1947 and 1948, but the honor" - change comma to semicolon and remove "but" to avoid creating false contrast
  • "from 1949 onwards" - since 1949
  • "Originally the award" - comma after "Originally"
  • "13 of the 162 players named Rookie of the Year" - normally we don't begin sentences with a digit per MOS:NUM, but I might make an exception here due to the necessity of writing out "one hundred sixty-two" that would result. I would like input from other reviewers on this.
  • What about something like "Of the 162 players named Rookie of the Year 13 have been elected to the HoF"? Staxringold talkcontribs 16:55, 14 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • "The award has been shared twice;once by Bruce Metzger and Pat Zachry of the National League in 1976 and once by John Castino and Alfredo Griffin of the American League in 1979." - colon instead of semicolon after "twice", space after the colon, and semicolon after "in 1976".
  • "Los Angeles Dodgers players have won the most awards for a single franchise (with 16), twice the total of the New York Yankees (eight) who have produced the most in the American League." - clarify that it's the Brooklyn and LA Dodgers franchise (assuming Brooklyn is included - I believe it is); something like Members of the Brooklyn and Los Angeles Dodgers have won the most awards of any franchise. Also, comma after "(eight)".
  • "Two players have been named Rookie of the Year and Most Valuable Player in the same year—Fred Lynn in 1975 and Ichiro Suzuki in 2001—and one player has won Rookie of the Year and Cy Young Award honors in the same year—Fernando Valenzuela in 1981." - too many em-dashes in one sentence.
  • "Sam Jethroe is currently the oldest player to win the award at age 32,[3] 33 days older than 2000 winner Kazuhiro Sasaki (also 32).[4]" - if the difference is only a matter of days, we should say a total of months and days if it's possible.
  • "From 1947–1956 each BBWAA voter" - no dashes in prose when using a from-to statement, and comma after 1956 - From 1947 to 1956, each BBWAA voter
  • "who qualified as a rookie" - should be linked to Rookie (baseball), but is already linked earlier, so remove.
  • "Then in 1957 the term was first defined" - remove "Then", cap "in", comma after "1957"
  • "less than 75 at-bats or 45 innings pitched" - link terms at first appearances (currently at second in following sentence)
  • "Finally, the current standard" - finally is extraneous
  • "a first place choice is given five points, a second place choice three points, and a third place one point." - commas after "points" should become semicolons; comma after "second place choice". Are you missing the word choice after "third place"? Also, all "xx place" descriptors are compound adjectives; thus, first-place instead of "first place", etc.
  • "received three second place votes" - as per above, second-place
  • "have won the award such as Hideo Nomo" - comma after "award"
  • "some feel that past NPB players are not true rookies because of their past professional experience" - who? This definitely needs a reference
  • That's what the ESPN and Japan Times refs are about. Should I reword to be more general such as "Recent awards presented to former NPB players have drawn criticism"? Staxringold talkcontribs 16:55, 14 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Not necessarily, but after a statement that includes phrases like "some feel", "some say", "people believe", a reference is needed directly because otherwise we invite the "who" tag. Easily corrected by duplicating the refs at the end of that sentence. KV5 (Talk • Phils) 18:00, 14 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • "have had" - can just be had
  • Tables: I don't know that we really need "Player" in the key; I think that's definitely intuitive enough.
  • All win-loss records in the table should use en-dashes instead of hyphens

That should be most of it from me. KV5 (Talk • Phils) 16:15, 14 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Support – phenomenal work that I consider equal to, if not better than, my own painstaking quality standards. Great work, Staxringold! KV5 (Talk • Phils) 19:47, 14 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Resolved comments from Giants2008 (17–14) 21:22, 20 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Comments –
  • "by the Chicago chapter of the BBWAA, who selected an annual winner from 1940 to 1946." Change "who" to "which", since the former is not referencing a person.
  • "One award was presented in both leagues in 1947 and 1948, the honor has been given to one player each in the National and American League since 1949." The punctuation in the middle is begging to be a semi-colon.
  • Comma after "Of the 162 players named Rookie of the Year".
  • The Dodgers are linked twice in the lead. The text isn't exactly the same, but it's clear enough that the same franchise is being discussed; therefore just the one link is needed.
  • Italics for Minneapolis Star-Tribune in the text and Japan Times in ref 10. Giants2008 (17–14) 16:21, 15 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • All done. Are you sure on the Dodgers thing though? Seems like the 2nd link would really be useful. Staxringold talkcontribs 16:38, 15 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • They both go to the same article in the end. If there was a seperate Brooklyn Dodgers article, then that would be a useful link. If you want to keep a second link, you could link the original Brooklyn Dodgers mention to a section in the article dedicated to their time in Brooklyn. Giants2008 (17–14) 21:22, 20 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Support – Another in the series of good baseball award lists that has been coming through here lately. Giants2008 (17–14) 21:22, 20 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from Dabomb87 (talk · contribs)

  • I know I didn't comment on this on previous FLCs, but how is a "key statistic" determined to be "key"?
  • The base statistics were Triple Crown numbers (AVG/RBI/HR and W/K/ERA), and then if those weren't particularly notable (guys with single digit HRs, for example, or like twice as many runs scored as runs batted in because they were top-of-the-order) I listed other stats (triples, runs scored, stolen bases, etc). Could rename it "Select statistics" if that makes you feel better about it. Staxringold talkcontribs 01:01, 19 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • That would be nice, thanks, but be sure to make it consistent across these articles. Dabomb87 (talk) 04:04, 19 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Why are DH and 3B not linked in the AL winners table on two occurences? Dabomb87 (talk) 00:53, 19 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Just a mistake, I used a find/replace to link the positions when I removed that part of the key. Fixed. Staxringold talkcontribs 01:01, 19 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Sources look good. Dabomb87 (talk) 00:53, 19 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
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