Wikipedia:Featured list candidates/2007 Pan American Games medal table/archive2

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The following is an archived discussion of a featured list nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured list candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The list was promoted by Dabomb87 23:27, 8 December 2009 [1].

2007 Pan American Games medal table[edit]

Nominator(s): Felipe Menegaz 19:54, 10 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Toolbox

Very detailed medal table that can be compared to the Featured Olympic similars. Felipe Menegaz 19:54, 10 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

  • Support – Just participated in the Peer Review and I think this list is featured quality. My only remaining concern is the lack of images of athletes from countries other than Brazil, but if that is all we have to work with then I am comfortable with the list as is. Geraldk (talk) 20:05, 10 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
However, if we expand the type of images beyond simply those showing medal awards, there are images available of athletes from other countries, or at least of other athletes in addition to Brazilian athletes. Some standouts from commons include: table tennis, volleyball, Badminton, basketball, Soccer, and Swimming. I'm curious what other reviewers think - keep the images to medal awards or expand the scope to allow for some diversity of nationalities. Geraldk (talk) 20:15, 10 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Comments from KV5

Just one quick comment I noticed in a drive-by: the legend is ambiguous. Does "First medal in the Pan American Games" mean that the country earned its first medal in the Games (ever?), or does it mean that the country earned the first medal in these particular games? Likewise for the "First medal in the Pan American Games". KV5 (Talk • Phils) 20:30, 10 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, it means that those countries earned their first ever medals. Added ever in the sentences. Felipe Menegaz 22:19, 10 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Comments from Joey80

The legend for the table (i.e. host nation, first ever medal, etc.) seems to contain two legends per subject--the numerical superscript/note, and the color coding. Maybe this can be simplified by removing one or the other. Personally, I prefer removing the numerical superscript, since that gives the idea that there is are notes at the bottom of the table/page worth considering, which is not the case. Joey80 (talk) 03:15, 11 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The numerical superscript must be there to meet the needs of readers who have trouble seeing colors, as per Wikipedia:Colours#Using colours in articles. If your concern is simply that symbols may work better than numbers, than I'm sure Felipe can find alternatives to the numbers. Geraldk (talk) 03:21, 11 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
If such is the case, then the numerical/text legend is ok, but the color coding can be removed? Joey80 (talk) 03:08, 13 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I think is better to keep both. As you said, numerical legend only gives the idea that there are notes. The featured list 1998 Winter Olympics medal table already use this template. Felipe Menegaz 23:56, 13 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Also, to support Geraldk's comments, it might be better to also include images of athletes of varying nationalities other than Brazilian. Joey80 (talk) 03:17, 11 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I think we should only use images related to the medals. Felipe Menegaz 15:31, 11 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
So this includes images of non-Brazilian athletes who won medals. Joey80 (talk) 03:06, 13 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
There is no free pictures of non-Brazilian athletes during those awards ceremonies. Felipe Menegaz 14:48, 13 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
All of my comments have been resolved. Thanks. Joey80 (talk) 03:33, 7 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Comments from Mm40

The ALT text needs work. For the pictures of athletes, you shouldn't mention their name in the ALT text because a non-expert can't see that just be looking at the picture. Instead, describe what the athletes look like, what they're wearing, etc. See Wikipedia:ALT#Verifiability. Also, for the map at top, there's no need to describe the colors, just describe what you would take from it. Maybe something like: "The United States, Canada, Mexico, Brazil, Argentina, Chile, etc. received at least one gold medal" and continue that going over most countries (see Wikipedia:ALT#Maps). Cheers, Mm40 (talk) 13:00, 11 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

After a huge blackout here in Brazil, I am back. Alternative texts improved. Felipe Menegaz 15:31, 11 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Resolved comments from Giants2008 (27 and counting) 17:05, 1 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
;Comments from Giants2008

Mostly of the picky variety, since the list is very good overall.

Regarding the images, I would like to see one or two that represent a country other than Brazil. Having four Brazilian photos and none with athletes from other countries could be seen by some as introducing bias. I also have a hard time believing no alternatives are avaliable, because the Brazilian agency where the existing photos come from has such friendly policies for our purposes; surely they didn't photograph just Brazilian athletes. Any of the team-sport finals photos in particular would make an ideal addition to the list, and are still strongly related to the medal count. Giants2008 (27 and counting) 21:42, 19 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, they did. There are pictures of competitions between Brazil and another country, but I can not distinguish what is the competition phase (final, semifinal, etc). Therefore, I can not tell you if there are medals to be disputed. Felipe Menegaz 15:24, 20 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
The image pages for the volleyball, soccer and basketball photos linked above specifically say they are from the gold-medal matches. Giants2008 (27 and counting) 22:21, 25 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Particularly I prefer the pictures from award ceremonies, but if everyone agree we can add these images. Could you give an example of caption to these pictures? Regards; Felipe Menegaz 23:55, 25 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
1998 Winter Olympics medal table, an FL I worked on a while back, has a picture of a hockey game. Perhaps the caption there could be used as a model of sorts. Giants2008 (27 and counting) 03:07, 29 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Done. Felipe Menegaz 19:34, 30 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Proper names shouldn't be in alt text since they cannot be verified by just looking at a given photo, as a commenter above said. The same rule should naturally apply to stadium names, which are not present in any of the current pictures. Giants2008 (27 and counting) 21:42, 19 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Done. Felipe Menegaz 15:15, 20 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

In reference 13, USA Today, whose website the story came from, should be mentioned in the citation. I'm assuming that the {{citation}} template lets this be added since I don't use that one myself. Giants2008 (27 and counting) 21:42, 19 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Done. Felipe Menegaz 15:15, 20 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support – After the resolution of these and the other comments, I'm confident that this meets the standards. Saw a grammar glitch in the alt text of a photo before coming here, but fixed it myself to expedite matters. Giants2008 (27 and counting) 20:06, 4 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support – Everything looks great and seems to have already been taken care of. Reywas92Talk 22:31, 22 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Resolved comments from The Rambling Man (talk) 15:10, 5 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Comments
  • Merge the rather choppy "first medal" and "first gold medal" sentences with a "while".
Done. Felipe Menegaz 13:25, 2 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • "general medal board " medal table?
Done. Felipe Menegaz 13:04, 2 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Why link Brazil at the games on the second usage in the lead, not the first?
Done. Felipe Menegaz 13:05, 2 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • "in December 18, 2007" surely "on"?
Done. Felipe Menegaz 13:06, 2 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • "2,196 medals were awarded " in lead, table total is 1,076 - you need to explain the discrepancy.
Done. Felipe Menegaz 13:09, 2 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • When sorting by Gold from fewest to most, it seems odd to me to see Peru (with 4 silver, 8 bronze) to be ranked above (and therefore "worse") than Trinidad and Tobago (with 1 silver, 3 bronze). Same is true when ranking by other medal types, the sub-ordering seems a little odd to me.
Well, I think that the problem is in {{RankedMedalTable}}. See 1998 Winter Olympics medal table, 2008 Summer Olympics medal table... Felipe Menegaz 13:21, 2 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
You're probably right - perhaps you could start a discussion on whether it's doing the right thing? The Rambling Man (talk) 13:49, 2 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Actually it is a problem with Wikipedia's script. I don't know if it can be resolved. Felipe Menegaz 16:47, 2 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Template_talk:RankedMedalTable#Problem. Felipe Menegaz 18:14, 2 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • "During the closing ceremony of the games on July 29, the Rio de Janeiro Organizing Committee, after the event closed without a single positive test for illegal drugs, hailed them as the cleanest ever." too many clauses for me. I would split.
Done. Felipe Menegaz 13:12, 2 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • "detected by four of 1,262 tests" detected "in".
Done. Felipe Menegaz 13:14, 2 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • "fourth-place winner " odd - perhaps "who placed fourth"?
Done. Felipe Menegaz 13:17, 2 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The Rambling Man (talk) 10:37, 2 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

  • Comment What does the "..." mean in the "Changes in medal standings" table? Also, why do you use pictures of the medals in that table but use words in the main table? Dabomb87 (talk) 18:22, 5 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
There are just aesthetical reasons. Medal pictures removed. Felipe Menegaz 20:32, 5 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I meant for you to clarify in the article what the three dots meant. Dabomb87 (talk) 22:55, 5 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
They mean nothing, zero, unchanged. I saw the 2004 Host City Election — ballot results table in Bids for the 2004 Summer Olympics with the dots and I liked. Well, dots removed. Felipe Menegaz 15:33, 7 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I just made the blank spaces dashes (since they mean the same thing). Problem solved. Dabomb87 (talk) 22:53, 7 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks. Felipe Menegaz 01:30, 8 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
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