Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Steve Biko/archive1

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The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by Sarastro1 via FACBot (talk) 12:46, 20 August 2017 [1].

Steve Biko[edit]

Nominator(s): Midnightblueowl (talk) 17:14, 11 July 2017 (UTC); Vanamonde[reply]

This GA-rated article is about one of the most famous South Africans in modern history, a man who is probably the second most prominent icon of the anti-apartheid movement (after Nelson Mandela, whom I successfully brought through the FAC process earlier this year). The fortieth anniversary of Biko's death (killed in police custody) is coming up on 12 September 2017 and it would be really good if we could get this to FA status well before then so that it can be listed as the TFA on that date. With that in mind it would be fantastic if we could have some comments from other editors. Midnightblueowl (talk) 17:14, 11 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Image review[edit]

  • This text is a simple commandment or warning; there is no reason (that I can determine) for it to be in copyright. Midnightblueowl (talk) 20:01, 11 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • There were a large range of variations on this theme. It does not seem likely that they would have been copyrighted at the time, or that anyone would be likely to claim copyright now or in the future. • • • Peter (Southwood) (talk): 11:20, 13 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • File:Fist.svg: Use seems fine, source information is missing however.
  • The upload date at Wikipedia predates the external website, suggesting that the other website took the image from Wikimedia/Wikipedia rather than vice versa. Midnightblueowl (talk) 20:01, 11 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Thinking about it further, so am I. South Africa still has a law dating from the 1970s banning any freedom of panorama for public artworks. That means that this sculpture, and any photographic representations of it, are restricted under copyright. I've removed the image from the article. Midnightblueowl (talk) 23:14, 11 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]

No ALT text as far as I can see. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk, contributions) 19:35, 11 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Comments and support by Gerda[edit]

Thank you for undertaking the topic!

Ibox

  • I think his common name should be above the image, I understand that's Steve Biko.
  • More organizations, fewer children?
  • I've left the children, but added an "Organizations" section listing SASO and the BPC. Midnightblueowl (talk) 22:43, 11 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Lead

  • I suggest to mention the pseudonym later, first say what he did.

Early life

  • How about more chronology, like letting the parents get married before having children? Could be called background, if needed.
  • Preferably I'd like to avoid the creation of a new "Background" section. Here I have followed the example that I have found successful with political biography articles like Nelson Mandela and Vladimir Lenin by adding a little bit of family background into the 'early life'. I'm open to moving the sentence about his siblings, but am unsure where to position it. Midnightblueowl (talk) 22:58, 11 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Xhosa, Afrikaans, and English were all spoken", - can you turn it around, for people who don't know that Xhosa is a language?
  • I would personally rather see Xhosa mentioned first given that Biko was from a Xhosa family. What does Vanamonde93 think? Midnightblueowl (talk) 22:51, 11 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • I'd agree: Xhosa being Biko's native tongue, leading with that makes sense to me. Vanamonde (talk) 04:26, 12 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Anything we can do about "The township housed both Bantu African and Coloured individuals, and Xhosa, Afrikaans, and English were all spoken." - I understand that "individual" sometimes is understood as a negative way to speak about a person, and don't like passive voice. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 16:16, 12 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I've changed "individuals" to "people"; and I've changed the structure of the sentence to the following; "Both Bantu African and Coloured people lived in the township, where Xhosa, Afrikaans, and English were all spoken". How does that work? Midnightblueowl (talk) 21:58, 12 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]
That works for me, thank you. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 22:04, 12 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • "His family were Christians,[5] and he was brought up as an adherent of the Anglican denomination of Christianity." Sounds complicated. I'd say: "His family were Anglican Christians.
  • Mzingaye? Mzingayi?
  • "Alice's family was forced to live on the limited income that she earned." I'd say: "The family was forced to live on the limited income that Alice earned."
  • "Khaya" - perhaps remind us "his brother Khaya" - I had to look it up.
  • quote introduced by "he", switching to "I"
  • Used "He" within square brackets inside the quote. Vanamonde (talk) 04:45, 12 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Biko developed a growing political consciousness" - developed and growing seem to rather say the same.

Developing SASO

  • "a meeting among themselves" - why not "a meeting"?
  • I believe that "Black is beautiful" is lead material.
  • I'm certainly open to this possibility but am not quite sure where to position it. The third paragraph is likely the most appropriate place, but it is eight sentences long already and if we add anything I think we need to remove something else. Midnightblueowl (talk) 23:03, 11 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • I've given it a shot, by moving some other stuff as well. The third paragraph is a bit long, but now at least BC ideology is all within one paragraph. Vanamonde (talk) 05:30, 12 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]

More to come. Again thank you!

Many thanks, Gerda. Midnightblueowl (talk) 22:07, 11 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you for adjusting, all but one fixed. It may take more time until I can read more, please be patient. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 16:16, 12 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]

The Black People's ...

  • Image caption: "Donald Woods, who wrote a book about Biko after the latter's death", - I think we can safely say "after his death" because Wood could hardly do it after his own?

Ideology

  • I wonder if that is a neutral header. In German, it has negative connotations, while Ideas sounds positive.
  • The term "ideology" does not have the same negative connotations in English (I once heard someone say that "ideology" has negative connotations in German because of the term's association with Nazism and Marxism-Leninism; I wonder if that is true...). I really do not think that "Ideas" would work. "Political thought" might be an alternative, but generally I think that "Ideology" is best; we use "Political ideology" in the FA-rated Vladimir Lenin and Nelson Mandela articles. Midnightblueowl (talk) 21:29, 12 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Learning. In German, it means something extreme, which is often intolerant of any other view/idea/philosophy/concept. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 22:01, 12 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]
In English, "ideology" applies as equally to liberalism or conservatism as it does to more extreme world-views like Nazism. Perhaps that has something to do with the greater political stability that Britain has experienced in the past century or two? Midnightblueowl (talk) 22:08, 12 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • "... and forms of Christianity, with black theology being described as Black Consciousness' "twin movement"." - Sorry, I don't understand it. Perhaps a bit more about black theology?
  • I've gone with this, how does this work: "Other movements that have been cited as influences on Black Consciousness include the United States-based Black Power movement and forms of Christianity; one form of Christianity, black theology, has been described as Black Consciousness' "twin movement".". Midnightblueowl (talk) 21:52, 12 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Makes me happy but for the repetition of the very general "forms of Christianity". Church? Ideas? Suggestion: "The Christian black theology ... --Gerda Arendt (talk) 21:58, 12 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I've restructured this whole sentence as the following: "Additional influences on Black Consciousness were the United States-based Black Power movement, and forms of Christianity like the activist-oriented black theology.". Midnightblueowl (talk) 22:04, 12 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • "When he met Biko for the first time, Woods expressed his concern" - after a while of talking about Biko, the reader doesn't get that this "he" is someone else.
  • I've moved this sentence to the "The Black People's Convention and Biko's Banning: 1971–77" section, where the wording should not be a problem. Midnightblueowl (talk) 21:47, 12 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Similarly: "Because they contained white individuals in dominant positions of control, Biko and his comrades regarded ..." - it's too late that we know who "they" means here, ... followed a bit later by a "he" that is not not clear.
  • I've restructured this sentence as follows: "Biko and his comrades regarded multi-racial anti-apartheid groups as unwittingly replicating the structure of apartheid because they contained white individuals in dominant positions of control." Midnightblueowl (talk) 21:50, 12 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • "One of the ways that Biko and the Black Consciousness sought to achieve this was through community development." - not clear what "this" means here.

See also

  • I don't care much about (any) see also section, - mixed topics. ----Gerda Arendt (talk) 17:11, 12 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Happy with changes, support --Gerda Arendt (talk) 22:05, 12 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Gerda Arendt - many thanks for both the review and the statement of support. Midnightblueowl (talk) 22:10, 12 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Source review from Ealdgyth[edit]

  • I randomly googled three sentences and nothing showed up except mirrors. Earwig's tool shows no copyright violations.
Otherwise everything looks good. Ealdgyth - Talk 12:14, 19 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Comments and support by Indy beetle[edit]

  • I think the further reading section should not be listed as a component of "References". It's slightly misleading and might be better if given its own section. -Indy beetle (talk) 00:22, 24 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Indy beetle, that's a fair point, which I have addressed now. Vanamonde (talk) 04:27, 24 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Indy beetle thanks for your comment. Did you have any other comments, and if not would you consider offering your support for this nomination? Midnightblueowl (talk) 14:17, 25 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Alright. Honestly I only made the comment as sort of a "drive-by" thing but this article deserves to be the best of the best so I'll make a few more. Prose only, really, as I have very limited technical knowledge in this area:

  • In the third paragraph in the lead it says, "The government was concerned by the movement". Generally, one is concerned about something, not by something. Perhaps a word like "disturbed" would be better?
  • I've replaced "by" with "about". Personally I think "concerned" works better with "disturbed", which I find might be a little strong. Certainly open to other possible alternatives though. Midnightblueowl (talk) 19:34, 25 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • I'll leave this one up to you and the other reviewers, but I find "crèche" to be a rather obscure word for the lead. Would "healthcare facility and day care centre" not be a suitable alternative for that sentence?
  • When I see "day care" I immediately think of the United States. I'm not really sure if it is a term that has a great deal of acceptance outside of that country. The common British term would for instance be "nursery"; I do not know what the usual term in South Africa is, but the RS cited uses "crèche". Midnightblueowl (talk) 19:27, 25 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Crèche is fairly common usage in S.A. • • • Peter (Southwood) (talk): 18:27, 2 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • In the early life section it says "He later noted that after this experience, he "began to develop an attitude which was much more directed at authority than at anything else. [He] hated authority like hell."" If Biko's word really were "I began to develop an attitude which was much more directed at authority than at anything else. I hated authority like hell." if might be best to use the "I"s instead of the "he"s for better flow. When it says "He later noted that after this experience," it implies that he would be talking, and people generally speak in the first person about themselves. Hope this makes sense.
  • I get what you mean. I have reformulated the sentence so that "I" is now used in the appropriate junctures rather than "[he]". Midnightblueowl (talk) 19:37, 25 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • In the Developing SASO section it says "Biko stood down from the presidency after a year". Shouldn't this say "stepped down"?
    That works better. Changed. Midnightblueowl (talk) 19:31, 25 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • In the Response to death and investigation section it says, "Biko's death attracted far more attention worldwide than he had during his lifetime." I see what this means here, but perhaps it could be revised to say "Biko's death attracted far more attention worldwide than he had himself during his lifetime" or "In death, Biko attracted far more attention worldwide than he had during his lifetime." Once again I'll leave this up to you and the other reviewers.

That's all I have to say. -Indy beetle (talk) 19:15, 25 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]

On that note I'm happy to support this article for FA status. -Indy beetle (talk) 19:48, 25 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from Sarah SV[edit]

I've moved the previous discussion to the talk page, per WP:FAC. SarahSV (talk) 05:12, 13 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Remaining issues are: can a few more sentences be added about his death, and can the nominators clarify the issue of his first and middle names? Lots of sources call him Stephen Bantu Biko. SarahSV (talk) 06:12, 11 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks, SV. I am okay with your copyedits, but I would like MBO to look at them before moving on. I will investigate the issue of names. More content on Biko's death may also have to wait for MBO's sources, though I will take a look at that too. Vanamonde (talk) 09:27, 11 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks, Vanamonde93. I'll wait to hear from Midnightblueowl. Regarding the name, MBO changed it on 14 June in response to Talk:Steve Biko/GA1 and noticing that RS and the gravestone say Bantu Stephen Biko. See File:StevenBantuBiko'sGrave.jpg. But RS also say Stephen Bantu Biko. This poster says Bantu Stephen, and this one says Stephen Bantu. His book, I Write What I Like, calls him Stephen Bantu. SarahSV (talk) 03:17, 12 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
It might be that there is not a single 'correct' way of arranging his name, and that he used both during his lifetime. Truth be told, I just don't know. Midnightblueowl (talk) 13:37, 12 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Midnightblueowl, thanks. The Steve Biko Foundation writes "the legacy of Bantu Stephen Biko". Biko's wife is a trustee, so it looks as though you made the right choice. SarahSV (talk) 01:47, 13 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks Slim. I've removed the recently added Mandela quote from the lede as I was not really sure if it was appropriate at that juncture. In part, Mandela's comments on Biko may have been part of unifying different black factions in post-apartheid South Africa, and thus may have been a form of propaganda or something like that. Midnightblueowl (talk) 13:42, 12 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
MBO, SlimVirgin, and John: While I have no problems with any of your individual edits/suggestions for the last paragraph of the lead, the end result is that to me the paragraph as a whole look very short and insubstantial, almost like it has been tacked on to include material we were not able to fit elsewhere. I think we need to beef it up a little. I think a quote is one option; a statement about his political importance is another; a statement about his status as the first anti-apartheid activist known internationally is a third. Thoughts? Vanamonde (talk) 04:56, 13 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
This is the version of the final lead paragraph that I've preferred so far. We need the introductory sentence to lead into the criticism. And I liked the Mandela quote that Vanamonde93 added. I'm not sure I understood the point about it being propaganda; it seems to be true from any perspective. But if not that, then something else that signifies his importance. SarahSV (talk) 05:24, 13 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I also think that we need the "During his lifetime Biko attracted criticism from various fronts" wording to introduce the fourth paragraph. However, I feel that the Mandela quote does not come across as particularly 'Wikipedia-esque' when placed at this juncture. It reads like the sort of thing that we would find in a press article rather than an encyclopaedia. A Mandela quote has been selected because Mandela is a 'big name' but the quote in question was produced at a point in time when Mandela was trying to unify various black political factions in the post-apartheid era. He was thus trying to quell rivalry between his ANC and the Black Consciousness movement and his quote must be seen in this context. For this reason I am really unconvinced as to whether it can be regarded lede material; however, I am not totally and utterly opposed to the use of the quote and if everyone else disagrees with me on this point then I will go along with the majority decision. Midnightblueowl (talk) 10:48, 13 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Midnightblueowl, if you're not keen on that quote, that's fine by me. Are you or Vanamonde93 willing to add a bit more about the death? There are currently only two sentences in the death section on what is thought to have happened in the hospital (third paragraph): "On 11 September, police loaded him into the back of a Land Rover, naked and manacled, and drove him 740 miles (1,190 km) to the hospital.[140] There, Biko died alone in a cell on 12 September 1977." SarahSV (talk) 01:51, 14 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I don't think it has to be the quote, but I do think the last lede paragraph needs something more. If you folks are not too particular about what that could be, I will try to add something later today or tomorrow (busy elsewhere on Wikipedia and in RL...). Vanamonde (talk) 04:14, 14 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
@SlimVirgin and Midnightblueowl: I've pondered this some more, and I think one possible solution would be to break the third paragraph, and combine Biko's death into the fourth. Another option would be to add a sentence about the continued relevance of his thought. The only other alternative I'm seeing is the Mandela quote, which MBO has expressed reservations about, because the other good quotes have either been removed, or are redundant with what we have. Vanamonde (talk) 16:57, 17 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I don't really like the idea of moving the death into the fourth paragraph to be honest (in fact I'd rather the Mandela quote!). I think it might be worth mentioning that he has been the subject of various songs and artworks, that various places are named after him, and that political parties have argued over the ownership of his legacy. That would all fit well with the general 'reception and legacy' theme of that fourth paragraph. How does that sound, Vanamonde? Midnightblueowl (talk) 17:10, 17 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
@Midnightblueowl: I've gone with something similar; mentioning those various aspects is a good idea, as individually they would be out of place, perhaps. Since we're mentioning books and artwork I also moved the book and film, which fits better there, IMO. Take a look; if you don't like it, we can work it out. Also, a general question; ordinarily, I think we'd want three or four detailed reviews at FAC, but I'm wondering if we need another for this one, given the importance of the subject, and the contentiousness of some of the material; I had six reviewers for starship troopers, and that was definitely a good thing...Given the level of support it has, we wouldn't be wrong in asking the TFA coordinators to reserve 12 September even while this is here. Vanamonde (talk) 17:27, 17 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
@Vanamonde93: I enquired about reserving the date from a TFA coordinator a few weeks ago; they suggested that I get the article passed as an FA before they would consider it. Generally, I'm happy with the number of reviews that this article has received; certainly it has had enough to pass as an FA. Additional reviews are always useful, but given that time if breathing down our neck on this one, I think it best to get this thing wrapped up as soon as we can. Midnightblueowl (talk) 21:02, 17 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • I'm going to go ahead and support this because it needs time to be promoted and make its way through the TFA process for 12 September. I would like to see more added about his death, but overall it's excellent work. SarahSV (talk) 02:07, 17 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

John[edit]

What a super article! I've read it twice and read through this review. I am minded to support, but I may have comments subsequent to the minor copyedits I performed. Great work. --John (talk) 22:49, 12 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks John. Midnightblueowl (talk) 10:49, 13 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I now support. The article isn't perfect but think it is good enough. --John (talk) 18:01, 19 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
@John: Thanks for the support. Since you mention it, what do you think it would need to be perfect? Vanamonde (talk) 05:21, 20 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for asking. I reduced the over-use of "although" here, and I feel there may be one or two other tweaks which would bring the prose quality to fully-brilliant level. --John (talk) 12:16, 20 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Closing comment: This looks good to go. I've fixed the references to put multiple refs in numerical order, and it might be worth someone taking a look at duplinks to check they are all necessary (I've removed one where the duplinks were close together in the text) but this isn't worth holding things up over. This has had a particularly good, in-depth review and there is an obvious consensus to promote but if John can see tweaks, I'm hoping he will do his polishing before TFA day! Sarastro1 (talk) 12:46, 20 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
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