Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Paxillus involutus/archive1

The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by SandyGeorgia 21:33, 23 August 2011 [1].

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Paxillus involutus

Paxillus involutus (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

• Featured article candidates/Paxillus involutus/archive1

Nominator(s): Casliber (talk · contribs), Sasata (talk · contribs) 02:52, 26 July 2011 (UTC)

Many moons ago as a child I read about this fungus (widely eaten in Eastern Europe) mysteriously killing people..now I am a doctor and we know why it does, and I find it even freakier. Anyway, Sasata and I have been buffing this and reckon it's ready to roll here. J Milburn's also had a look and offered some suggestions. Have at it. Will reply promptly. Cheers, Casliber (talk · contribs) 02:52, 26 July 2011 (UTC)

Source review - spotchecks not done. Nikkimaria (talk) 04:35, 26 July 2011 (UTC)

• Ref 5: publisher?
• Be consistent in whether or not you provide publisher locations
• Are refs 27 and 45 to the same source? If so, should be reversed; if no, missing bibliographic info for ref 27. Nikkimaria (talk) 04:35, 26 July 2011 (UTC)

• These have been fixed, thanks Nikkimaria. Sasata (talk) 19:01, 26 July 2011 (UTC)

Comments Media review coming later, but first:

• As I was reading it over, I saw the sentence "The Paxillus syndrome is better classed as an allergic reaction than a toxicological reaction as it is not caused by a genuinely poisonous substance but by the antigen in the mushroom." However the characteristics box lists the mushroom as "edibility: poisonous" rather than "edibility: allergenic". This seems like a discrepancy.
• I'm getting the comment "Cite error: <ref> tag with name "Kretzer1999" defined in <references> is not used in prior text; see the help page." in bright red.

Sven Manguard Wha? 23:56, 26 July 2011 (UTC)

• Poisonous in the mycomorphbox indicates that consumption of the mushroom may cause sickness, or even death. The "allergic reaction" refers to the mechanism of poisoning, in that it is mediated by the immune system; there is no discrepancy between the two. I fixed the leftover citation issue. Sasata (talk) 00:25, 27 July 2011 (UTC)

• You're the expert. I just brought it up because I noticed it. Sven Manguard Wha? 01:11, 27 July 2011 (UTC)

Media Review Yeah, so right off the bat, I'll say that everything is good form a copyright standpoint. However, I'm honestly not seeing why all three of File:Čechratka podvinutá 1.jpg, File:Paxillus involutus 20061015w.jpg, and File:Paxillus involutus 112885.jpg are needed. Of those three, the first two are basically the same thing. The third one really dosen't add anything to the toxicity section. I tried rearranging everything in a sandbox and I really don't have any good answers. I considered the idea of a distribution map, but in all honesty, it seems like "Everywhere" would be a good description on the distribution. At this point unless one of you has a better idea or some other photo options, I'm tempted to just say leave it as is, or just say cut File:Paxillus involutus 20061015w.jpg. Really its your choice. Sven Manguard Wha? 01:11, 27 July 2011 (UTC)

Many organisms can be variable in appearance - in an ideal world, we'd have some different ones (i.e. someone cutting one in half for a cross section etc.) but we don't. I think what we have does highlight some different shades of brown and punctuates the slabs of text nicely. Casliber (talk · contribs) 01:38, 27 July 2011 (UTC)

Alright. Sven Manguard Wha? 03:49, 27 July 2011 (UTC)

Comments from Ucucha:

• Why is Agaricus contiguus not used? Is it because Fries sanctioned involutus?

not sure exactly, but quite possibly - will look into it. yes, see how it is written here. Will clarify, but in am as I need to sleep now. Casliber (talk · contribs) 12:55, 30 July 2011 (UTC)

Update - have added a bit on sanctioning. But still haven't re-found the reason why Fries chose Batsch and not Bulliard (I think I saw it before...will keep looking...) Casliber (talk · contribs) 23:41, 30 July 2011 (UTC)

This is still not clear to me: if sanctioning is not necessary, why is the earlier name not used? Ucucha (talk) 19:08, 23 August 2011 (UTC)

• Why don't you link Paxillus vernalis and P. filamentosus, and where is filamentosus from?

now linked at first instance x 2 - oversight on our part. Will clarify location The latter is from europe and north america and greenland - enough to have the info on its own page? Casliber (talk · contribs) 22:27, 29 July 2011 (UTC)

Since you mention the range of other species there, I'd prefer to have it for filamentosus too. Ucucha (talk) 19:08, 23 August 2011 (UTC)

• Are obscurosporus and validus now considered synonyms of involutus?

The taxa were described in 1999 by Hahn, and it is unclear how widely the names have been taken up. They are still poorly known so my guess is that it is unclear what parts of other populations are actually other species Casliber (talk · contribs) 12:53, 30 July 2011 (UTC)

This makes me a bit uneasy—if the taxonomy is such a mess, are you sure this article is describing the same species everywhere? Ucucha (talk) 19:08, 23 August 2011 (UTC)

I agree - this is probably an issue for many widespread fungal species. A lag time as study X reports what look like cryptospecies but doesn't have enough information to describe some officially, and research that has to be undertaken before there is general uptake elsewhere. What I've tried to do is clarify the current status of what is by consensus called Paxillus involutus (sensu lato). It might be several more years before more material is published to make a formal split. Do you think it is clear enough in the lead? (NB: fungal knowledge is alot more meagre than birds or flowering plants...) Casliber (talk · contribs) 21:10, 23 August 2011 (UTC)

• All the species linked under "Similar species" are already mentioned under "Taxonomy".

delinked now Casliber (talk · contribs) 12:44, 30 July 2011 (UTC)

• What is the southern range limit in North America?

This is proving elusive - have been searching to see if it occurs in Mexico but the status of fungal knowledge of Mexico is meagre at best! I have never seen any more exacting information than the adejctive "northern" ..... Casliber (talk · contribs) 12:33, 30 July 2011 (UTC)

That's a bit odd. I see it's also mentioned as being in California, which is hardly northern North America. Ucucha (talk) 19:08, 23 August 2011 (UTC)

The gist is abundant across northern north america really. Will see if we can pinpoint southernmost. Casliber (talk · contribs) 21:10, 23 August 2011 (UTC)

Ucucha 12:39, 28 July 2011 (UTC)

Support Comments A couple of nitpicks Jimfbleak - talk to me? 10:35, 1 August 2011 (UTC)

• I made these edits; please check

yup. looks fine to me. Casliber (talk · contribs) 11:16, 1 August 2011 (UTC)

• Genetic testing suggests there may be several species in the species complex that is currently classified as Paxillus involutus — perhaps Genetic testing suggests that Paxillus involutus may be a species complex rather than a single species.

Yeah. thought about it, and figured the original way doesn't make sense as it wasn't previously a complex when it was thought only one species, hence grammar changed. Casliber (talk · contribs) 11:20, 1 August 2011 (UTC)

• inrolled refers to the inrolled cap. — Do you need the second "inrolled"?

nope - changed Casliber (talk · contribs) 11:16, 1 August 2011 (UTC)

No further queries, changed to support, even though I'm a bit concerned about the mushroom soup I had for lunch! Jimfbleak - talk to me? 14:48, 1 August 2011 (UTC)

Comments –

• "while the fruit bodies of the other two groups tended to appear in groups, have thicker stipes and caps with more inrolled and sometimes undulating margins." Needs an "and" after the comma, I believe.

how about a comma after "stipes"? Casliber (talk · contribs) 03:29, 3 August 2011 (UTC)

Now there's nothing leading up to "and caps with more inrolled...". The part before the first comma doesn't match well with it. Try picturing it without the stuff in the middle and you get "tended to caps...". Still think the original solution I proposed is the best, but I'm sure there are other ways of doing it. Giants2008 (27 and counting) 01:10, 15 August 2011 (UTC)

Okay, have done it the way you suggested - does feel a little lopsided somehow but can't think of a better way currently. Casliber (talk · contribs) 12:07, 15 August 2011 (UTC)

• Description: Extremely minor, but the first photo caption could use a full stop at the end.

fullstops x 2 in photo captions added Casliber (talk · contribs) 03:29, 3 August 2011 (UTC)

• Ecology, distribution and habitat: "the brown roll-rim is found across the North Hemisphere, across Europe and Asia, with records...". The second "across" is a bit redundant and interferes with the flow. It's safe to drop it.

duly dropped Casliber (talk · contribs) 03:29, 3 August 2011 (UTC)

• Toxicity: "the" should definitely be added to "and may be beneficial in improving outcome", toward the end of the sentence. I like to use the fewest words possible too, but this is one word too few for me.

definite article added Casliber (talk · contribs) 03:29, 3 August 2011 (UTC)

• Ref 58 is missing a publisher. Giants2008 (27 and counting) 01:31, 3 August 2011 (UTC)

added Casliber (talk · contribs)

• Support – All of the my comments have been dealt with, and I'm satisfied that this meets all the criteria. Giants2008 (27 and counting) 16:04, 17 August 2011 (UTC)

Support. I gave the article a review shortly before this nomination here, and my concerns were dealt with. The article is still looking good, and nothing of concern that I missed has been raised in this nomination. J Milburn (talk) 20:48, 5 August 2011 (UTC)

Support from Cryptic C62 · Talk:

• "Various shades of brown in colour, the fruit body grows 6 cm (2.4 in) high and has a funnel-shaped cap to 12 cm (5 in) wide" First, does 6 cm represent the maximum or the average height? Second, I think there is a missing "up" in "has a funnel-shaped cap [up] to 12 cm wide".

both are max measures, 2nd "up" added. Casliber (talk · contribs) 02:08, 9 August 2011 (UTC)

• "It had been recognised as causing gastric upsets when eaten raw, but was more recently implicated in a potentially fatal autoimmune hemolysis in those who had consumed the mushroom without ill-effects for years." I'm so confused by this sentence that I don't even know how to suggest improvements. Why does this refer to "a" hemolysis when there were multiple people who were eating the mushroom? Why does this sentence use the relative time word "recent"? How can it be possible for the mushroom to have caused a potentially fatal hemolysis "without causing ill-effects for years"? Was this sentence written by chimps or am I just retarded today?

Right - these are the facts - the mushroom was widely consumed for years and was known to require cooking before being eaten (due to gastric upsets when eaten raw). It was anecdotally associated with isolated cases of severe illness, even deatn in 1944, but oddly many people seemed to eat it for years with no problems. Then as time went on, from the 1980s it was established that it could cause a potentially fatal autoimmune hemolysis -which can happen out of the blue at any time (i.e. not exposure- or dose dependent). This knowledge was slow in uptake by guidebooks, some of which listed it as edible until the 1990s. The "a" here referred to a single type of haemolysis, not single episode. You're not retarded - I think we need to tweak it. Casliber (talk · contribs) 02:27, 9 August 2011 (UTC)

Here's one idea: "It had been known to cause gastric upsets when eaten raw, but was more recently found to cause potentially fatal autoimmune hemolysis, even in those who had consumed the mushroom for years without any other ill effects." --Cryptic C62 · Talk 18:34, 11 August 2011 (UTC)

Ok, I'll pay that - so you concede that "recently" though not ideal is maybe best fit for the gradual sinking in of the mushroom's dangerousness in mycophagous communities? Casliber (talk · contribs) 22:15, 11 August 2011 (UTC)

IAR FTW! --Cryptic C62 · Talk 22:44, 12 August 2011 (UTC)

• I don't see anything in the lead about the ecology of this mushroom. This makes me sad.

added Casliber (talk · contribs) 02:58, 9 August 2011 (UTC)

• I don't see anything in the lead about how long we've known about this mushroom. This also makes me sad.

added Casliber (talk · contribs) 02:58, 9 August 2011 (UTC)

• In the second infobox, is the edibility image a joke? I thought we were building an encyclopedia, not a collection of stickers that were drawn by epileptic boll weevils.

Aha, there is some discussion about overhauling the images here that are used on Template:Mycomorphbox. I agree the pink face is...erm...could be better. Casliber (talk · contribs) 11:50, 9 August 2011 (UTC)

• "The genus was later placed in a new family, Paxillaceae, by French mycologist René Maire who placed it between the agarics and boletes." Two things. First, the sentence feels a bit repetitive due to the repetitive use of the repeated word "placed". Second, what does it mean to be placed "between the agarics and boletes"? Were these families laid out on Maire's desk? Or perhaps there is some sort of periodic table of mushrooms? Maybe the meaning is obvious to a mycophile, but I certainly don't understand it.

reworded Casliber (talk · contribs) 12:20, 9 August 2011 (UTC)

• "The generic name is derived from the Latin for 'peg' or 'plug' and the specific epithet involutus meaning 'inrolled' refers to the cap margin." This sentence is long and it would be nice if it had commas so that it would be easier to read.

nice commas added Casliber (talk · contribs) 11:44, 9 August 2011 (UTC)

• I'm seeing a mixture of "roll-rim" and "rollrim". Which is correct?

hyphens added Casliber (talk · contribs) 11:44, 9 August 2011 (UTC)

• "Study of ... Paxillus involutus has revealed that it appears to form a complex" Unnecessarily high number of consecutive verbs here. I'm also not a fan of "revealed", as this implies that the thing being revealed is necessarily the truth, rather than one particular theory which may be disproved later. How about "Studies of ... Paxillus involutus indicate that it may form a complex" instead?

ok. "Revealed" I didn't mind too much as the mushrooms all look very similar, hence the molecular work reveals hidden relationships within, but I get your point. Casliber (talk · contribs) 12:18, 9 August 2011 (UTC)

• "while the fruit bodies of the other two groups tended to appear in groups" Repeated use of "groups" is somewhat confusing. Perhaps the first could be replaced with "populations" or the second replaced with "clusters".

I took groups --> populations, wondered if clusters was too specific a meaning... Casliber (talk · contribs) 12:15, 9 August 2011 (UTC)

• "irregular and anastomosed (combined irregularly)" These smell somewhat redundant to me.

"anastomosed" means the gills join up. naughty adverb removed. Casliber (talk · contribs) 03:22, 11 August 2011 (UTC)

• "The brownish colour and funnel-like shape of P. involutus can lead to its confusion with several species of Lactarius, many of which have some degree of toxicity themselves, but the lack of a milky exudate distinguishes it from any milk cap, one of the more similar being L. turpis, which presents a darker olive colouration." I don't think ya'll realized that this is one single solitary supersized serpentine sentence! I suggest splitting it into two (or perhaps even three).

duly splitted Casliber (talk · contribs) 03:24, 11 August 2011 (UTC)

• "It can be distinguished from it" It is somewhat ambiguous.

I rejigged to clarify. Casliber (talk · contribs) 03:36, 11 August 2011 (UTC)

• "by the presence of crystals" What kind of crystals?

crystalline structures seen under the microscope. The reference is a very brief key and doesn't elaborate. I haven't used microscopes with mushrooms yet and can't access some of the earlier journals cited by the key. Using microscopes on the mycelium is really specialised....I'll take another look tonight when I get some time. Sasata (who added this bit) may be able to elaborate also.Casliber (talk · contribs) 04:42, 11 August 2011 (UTC)

I like bagels. --Cryptic C62 · Talk 21:29, 8 August 2011 (UTC)

Please check all redirects: I expect to see at least brown roll rim, common roll-rim, common roll rim, etc. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 21:10, 23 August 2011 (UTC)

Which is correct? The article mentions Northern Hemisphere, we have Northern Hemisphere, but it mentions northern hemisphere. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 21:11, 23 August 2011 (UTC)

Ummm...that's a very good question actually, WRT caps or not..I will prusue that as I'm seeing both on google and WP on first look. Might have to nut this out on the geography pages. I'll ask Tony...Casliber (talk · contribs) 00:09, 24 August 2011 (UTC)

Based on this source, NH should be capitalized. Our article on the same is rather inconsistent. Sasata (talk) 20:03, 24 August 2011 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.